Does anyone else think the Talmud is complete garbage?

[Anonymous No.15451854]

I was raised reform and holy shit I could never get into the Torah or Talmud. I feel like persecution is the only thing keeping this dead and overly legalistic religion alive. I am dumb founded that people like my dad wants to just sit inside all day and read the Talmud.
It has to be a societal mental illness.

[Anonymous No.15451889]

>>15451854
I'm just glad there's another Jew on /lit/.

[Anonymous No.15451904]

Uh maybe the fact that you were Deform is the reason why you have no clue what the Torah is about.
Go to a proper Orthodox yeshiva, retard.

[Anonymous No.15451905]

>>15451889
>i'm so glad there's... jew
no wonder cuckposting is so abundant here

[Anonymous No.15451917]

>>15451854

Religious people are scary af. I'm not a jew, but I'll give you some advice. NEVER say that to anyone you know, fake as much as you can, it can be tiring sometimes, but it is definitely better than the hell you'll evoke if people around you realize what you think.

[Anonymous No.15451939]

>>15451904
Orthodox Jews are the ones most obsessed with Judaism and yet really dont understand the nuance of it at all. That is something I find really ironic.
That being said, even with the nuance, Spinoza has done more for the development of my brain than the trash that is the Talmud and Kabbalah could ever hope.

[Anonymous No.15451954]

Reform "Judaism" has literally less in common with Judaism than Islam does, and only slightly more in common than Christianity.

[Anonymous No.15451971]

>>15451939
It's okay if you're dumb to understand those books, my friend.
Also, everything of value that Spinoza had to say is already present in various Kabbalistic sources (Zohar, Etz HaChaim, Sefer Yetzira, etc.).

[Anonymous No.15451985]

>>15451854
Secular Jew here what should I read to get into Jewish mysticism?

[Anonymous No.15451986]

>>15451954
Thats because reform is largely thanks to Moses Mendelssohn of the enlightment. Regardless I would bet a lot of money on the average reform Jew knowing more than orthodox. Most of the orthodox are absolute retards who dont even believe corona virus exists.
Something I dont understand is how many Jews study a legalistic book with less intelligence than the US bill of rights while at the same time having an esoteric book (Kabbalah) make less sense than Martin Heidegger.
Its sad how many Jews refuse to move past the cancer that is Judaism just over butthurt of gentiles trying to purge it

[Anonymous No.15452006]

>>15451971
>Zohar, Etz HaChaim, Sefer Yetzira, etc

[Anonymous No.15452010]

>>15451971
Are you really implying that the Talmud and Kabbalah are somehow deep? Lol the absolute mental gymanstics you guys will go through to justify a nonsensical tradition that only exists out of spite.

>>15451985
I wouldnt know since I dont engage in Jewish mysticism but probably whatever Walter Benjamin was reading.

[Anonymous No.15452024]

>>15451986
Yeah, Jews from Yemen to Lithuania to Uzbekistan to Tunisia spent their entire days, day and night, studying Torah, and deriving great pleasure from it, even though it's a bunch of "obscure legalistic documents of no value".
The mere survival of all those texts is a testament to their value.
You're too spiritually and intellectually blind to see the obvious though.
I would advise you to go to your nearest Orthodox shul and have conversations with the Rabbi there, most of your questions have easy answers.

[Anonymous No.15452045]

>>15451985
Since you are coming from a secular perspective i would highly recommend Gershom Scholem's "Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism." As >>15452010 suggested, Benjamin had a short-lived interest in this area, in particular the relation between language, mimesis, and divine creation. Benjamin was very close with Scholem in his early career, alongside Theodor Herzl, but broke from the Cultural Zionist/mystic strain and became more of a Marxist materialist style thinker. Regardless, Scholem and some of Benjamin's religious work function very well as an introduction to the sort of epistemology Jewish mysticism deals with. After you look at them you can start diving into the works Scholem references.

[Anonymous No.15452058]

>>15452024
How does a tradition prove something is true? Thats the same thing that christians prove themselves because the bible has survive for 2,000 years.
Most spiritual people like yourself just cannot cope with the fact that the immediate material universe is all there is. It has nothing to do with blindless, it depresses me but I accept it as a fact because its true. Its fine if you want to tell lies to yourself to give your life meaning but dont push that stuff on me or other secular Jews.

I have had enough conversations with orthodox cousins to realize there is nothing to be gained from talking to an orthodox Rabbi. Its all a joke.

[Anonymous No.15452078]

>>15452045
I guess I mostly align with Marxism as well (though I have a lot of reservations about it) so it looks like a good introduction. My interest is mostly pseudo-academic but in general I’ve wanted to get more in touch with the Jewish aspect of my identity recently since I never had a Bar-Mitzvah or anything.

[Anonymous No.15452132]

>>15452078
I was in the exact same position you were. Jewish but raised secular, no temple or bar-mitzvah or anything. Read Scholem and Benjamin in a university course (specifically a course on Benjamin) was what led me into deeper study. I find that Benjamin's perspective on mysticism isn't too Marxist, and is generally more concerned with legitimate exegesis that utilizing religious ideals for political theory. I find that reading Scholem and Benjamin is a fascinating experience in itself anyway.

[Anonymous No.15452181]

>>15452132
Was Benjamin’s mysticism always informed in part by his Marxism or is there an epistemic break between those periods?

[Anonymous No.15452195]

>>15452132
Seriously why can none of you mystics ever explain to me what exactly is so enlightening about your esoteric studies. I feel like I am living on acid when some other Jew tells me the value of these studies.

[Anonymous No.15452249]

>>15452181
There is a fairly serious epistemic break between those two periods, in my opinion. Benjamin wasn't fully invested in Marxism until his association with the IFS, Brecht, and Bloch.
>>15452195
I don't even consider myself a "mystic." I just study art history. However, I did get interested in the subject through reading Benjamin and found it very interesting to read A. as an ethnic jew and B. as someone who both considers themselves and academic and is interested in religious philosophy. I'm not out here trying to claim that mysticism is going to give you magic powers or turn you into some sort of superman. I just think it's a very interesting and worthwhile area of study which contains lessons which can apply to every aspect of life.

[Anonymous No.15452314]

>>15452249
Secular Jew here, do you have any examples of said lessons? Rn I’m reading Hilberg’s Holocaust book so I’ll probably read this after

[Anonymous No.15452324]

>>15452249
Forgive me if I sound like a cunt but the fact that Napoleon, some random french general that believed in "destiny" is the one who set us free in Europe while the Rabbis studying these texts were dying of old age and accomplishing nothing. I just dont see the value. I have never particularly been a spiritual person so I am probably biased but really it seems like a waste of time when we could be doing more important things.
We need to become greater beings than just limit ourselves to these texts that turn us into legalistic and docile people.

[Anonymous No.15452335]

>>15451971
oven dodger detected

[Anonymous No.15452378]

>>15452314
One of the statements I found most interesting was about mystical epistemology and the relation to history, specifically the notion of mystical knowledge as a return to the "root of all existence." That is, mystical studies are inherently eschatological in nature in the sense that it recognizes that the path to God is one of a return to a sort of innate, "original" knowledge that exists within all of man. Jewish mystics essentially belive the "pure" knowledge which they pursue is that original knowledge of Adam, a knowledge that can only be unlocked through an age-old process of intense study. This is a concept which I find especially valuable when trying to understand why it is exactly that I seek knowledge in the first place, as a method of understanding what it means to be human in relation to the divine. History for the mystic is far less important than divine experience and knowledge.
>>15452324
That's all well and good, but I don't think Rabbis ever cared about accomplishing anything material. I think the reality is if you go the spiritual route you have to recognize that what you are trying to understand is eschatological, in the sense that divine knowledge concerns more concepts which exist outside of material experience, in a divine realm, than it does "life" as we know it. I think it's just an inherent flaw (or benefit) of spirituality, that you must be docile in the face of a divinity which goes far beyond experience, which is ineffable. I think most religions would argue our concern should be first and foremost the celestial sphere, and that what happens on earth is of little consequence as what happens after death is far more immense than anything we could experience in a short, earthly existence.

[Anonymous No.15453187]

>>15451854
Hey, this will cheer you up: America is in it's worst financial situation since the Great Depression and we filthy Goyim are sending you guys 38 Billion dollars on top of 11 million a day of our wealth.

[Anonymous No.15453200]

>>15452058
>with the fact that the immediate material universe is all there is.
there are people on /lit/ in 2020 that still think this? what the fuck makes you think our brain is even evolved enough to reliably perceive “reality”? why do you arbitrarily accept what a limited mind perceives as reality?

[Anonymous No.15453208]

[Anonymous No.15453222]

>>15453200
What is that even supposed to mean? Our success with science and math proves that our brains are in sync with reality

[Anonymous No.15453235]

>>15451854
>I was raised reform and holy shit I could never get into the Torah or Talmud.
you were literally raised reform lmao
it's like a muslim wondering why the bible isn't persuasive
it's literally not your religion, orthodox are a whole fucking universe of memed judaism

[Anonymous No.15453244]

>>15451904

[Anonymous No.15453248]

>>15451854
>I am dumb founded
Surely you mean dumb. Your entire OP is a bareily veiled admission of brainletism.
It's one thing to dislike a tradition you've studied, it's another to pretend it's bad when your only contact with it is failing to even study in the first place.
At this point even a nazi would make a less biased argument against the talmud than you do, think about that.

[Anonymous No.15453257]

>>15452058
>immediate material universe is all there is
except the cutting edge of physics leans counter to this notion

[Anonymous No.15453291]

>>15453257
physicists are unforunately confused. skepticism or realism about the external world are irrefutable theories. since they are irrefutable, you just pick one on the basis of metaphysics and carry on with that acknowledgement. anyone claiming to have discovered relevant facts via empirical research is misunderstanding the nature of metaphysical questions of this fundamental sort.

[Anonymous No.15453298]

>>15453187
As a (yet another) Jew itt I've failed to see any dime of those 38 billions dollars yet, so allow me to doubt the full extent of your statement.

>>15453222
We have as much failure as success with 'sciences and math" (the vagueness of that statement already hints that you probably don't know much about either).
We can't account for at least 70% of the mass of the observable universe, we don't understand what the fuck gravity really is, we can't describe explcitly the general laws of motion of fucking water and we can't even tell how 3 solid bodies in general positions and masses interact with one another. And that's talking about physics, literally our least pitiful science right now. Don't forget the insane amount of tinkering, improv and sheer dumb luck that engineer have to apply in order to make even the smallest thing work.

Don't get me wrong, we've had tremendous advancement but we're so far from the bottom of things it's laughable. And the bottom of things happen to be precisely what religious metaphysics are about.
Also the most successful part of physics and biology tend to be very complex, counterintuitive or downright distasteful. Our brain need to be heavily trained in order to handle and use whatever insight we've gained.

The best we can say is that our brain are not completely unable to deal with material phenomena, which is already evidenced by the fact our ancestors survived in the wilderness. "Science and maths" is ultimately nothing more than an extension of that.

[Anonymous No.15453493]

>>15452058
>immediate material universe is all there is
so you don't believe in objective truth?

[Anonymous No.15453508]

>>15451854
convert

[Anonymous No.15454030]

Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Anonymous No.15454063]

>>15454030
Link or it didn't happen

[Anonymous No.15454208]

>>15451854
>be 8 years old
>go to my cousin’s bris and watch the horror unfold
>begin to hate my body and my religion
>turn 13
>forced to do the Bar Mitzvah thing by parents
>the Torah Portion I’m given to memorize and recite is a passage about how God condemns those who cut flesh off a living animal and consume it without proper slaughter
>understand at the age of 13 that Jews view their sons as lower than cattle
Also
>attending Hebrew Sunday school
>larger kid with anger issues attacks me and beats me up for no reason
>pass out and fall down the stairs
>Rabbi heats about incident
>threatens to kick me and my entire family out of the Synagogue because the kid who knocked me out has very wealthy parents who just donated a lot of money to the congregation

Truly a wicked and godless people. I knew this in my youth as I know it now. Leave the farm and never look back anon.

[Anonymous No.15454242]

>>15454030
>I'm not anti-semitic
>but I quote Goebbels

[Anonymous No.15454297]

>>15454242
He’s absolutely an anti-Semite, but nothing he’s saying is false.

[Anonymous No.15454310]

>>15454297
The other guys not wrong either.

[Anonymous No.15454402]

>>15453298
>And the bottom of things happen to be precisely what religious metaphysics are about.
You are so dumb. Of course science is all nonsense, just study Torah, it explains everything (hint: it's god that makes electricity out of foreskins)

[Anonymous No.15454411]

>>15454310
>we have shown that we use the positions to influence for good

[Anonymous No.15454424]

>>15451854
Jews are a cursed race. Should have been destroyed a long time ago.

[Anonymous No.15454454]

>>15454424
their covenant with God is the only thing keeping them alive, despite what christcucks say.

[Anonymous No.15454473]

>>15454411
No he's right the only reason people point that is because they want to put forward an anti-semitic conspiracy theory.

[Anonymous No.15454475]

It's really fucking bad, yes. It's just infinite pedantry.

[Anonymous No.15454477]

>>15454454
Jews have never known God. Every single Jew, Christian, and Muslim deserves to die.

[Anonymous No.15454481]

>>15454473
>it's a conspiracy theory
>even though it's true and we admit it's true
>Just don't talk about it

[Anonymous No.15454483]

>>15454477
honestly, Based.

[Anonymous No.15454492]

>>15454481
Jews are overrepresented in the meida =/= all Jews are in on a conspiracy to kill all the white people
No one admitted anything you thick fuck. The image seems to be making fun of that guy for pointing out its antisemitic all the while embracing antisemitism.

[Anonymous No.15454507]

>>15454492
Who said anything about killing white people? Jewish domination on the media can be used and IS being used to further Jewish and Israeli goals at the expense of the Host nation. Israel is entering a new expansion war? it's alright, Use the media to garner support and ask for more aid, even if it's meaningless and detrimental to the Host country.

[Anonymous No.15454519]

>>15451986
Coronavirus is for the goyim

[Anonymous No.15454524]

>>15454507
Youre missing the point which is that the only reason to post that image over any other generic "jews are in da mediuh!" macro is that the guy looks foolish for calling the other guy antisemitic for simply pointing out the facts about Jewish overrepresentation all while the guy is quoting Goebbels. I'm not interested in debating what you think the Jews endgame is, just pointing out the image is retarded and the other guy is completely right.

[Anonymous No.15454529]

>>15451854
yes, your religion is just an amazing legalistic cope in response to a dead spirituality.

[Anonymous No.15454533]

>all these Jews show up, revealing themselves

No wonder there’s so much vitriol toward right wing threads. You kike nerds are upset that the jocks came into your gay book club for babies

[Anonymous No.15454714]

>>15454030
Holy shit, I never knew Rachel Riley was Jewish
>"you should be fucking bowing to us, goyim"

[Anonymous No.15454950]

>>15451854
I hate Judaism so much, and the whole Jewish identity. I'm not wewuzing cnaanite asherah worshippers and all that though this is the truth, but it really amazes me how we got taken over by a bunch of rabbis and their autistic life-denying laws. If I met the rabbi who mutilated my dick I'm gonna punch him in the face.

[Anonymous No.15454971]

>>15451854
Is it just me or is amputating part of someone else's penis without their permission for dubious benefits not a very nice thing to do?

[Anonymous No.15454997]

>>15454533
interesting way to view this board.

[Anonymous No.15455003]

>>15454524

Your kike is showing

[Anonymous No.15455045]

>>15454402
What, you mean staring at fences is not how striped goats are made?

>>15454971
It is, but tell that to Americans. At least third-worlders have the whole "no education" excuse.

[Anonymous No.15455111]

>>15451854
>I was raised reform
Rest of the post discarded

[Anonymous No.15455114]

>>15451854
You're just retarded, OP. Go ahead and undermine your people and your culture - Israel will pick up the slack for you.

[Anonymous No.15455300]

>>15451854
>I feel like persecution is the only thing keeping this dead and overly legalistic religion alive
It's worse in Ortho yeshivas, assimilation of the Diaspora is the #1 cause of attrition in the population as a whole, hence the fear porn constantly. Midrashes micro-managing women's bodily functions and hygiene by itself probably birthed feminism as such.

[Anonymous No.15455320]

>>15455300
>Midrashes micro-managing women's bodily functions and hygiene by itself probably birthed feminism as such.
Holy based, where is the Jewish gigachad meme?

[Anonymous No.15455348]

>>15451985
the Zohar, pritzker edition

[Anonymous No.15455972]

>>15451854
>The Clan lived by unchanging tradition. Every facet of their lives from the time they were born until they were called to the world of the spirits was circumscribed by the past. It was an attempt at survival, unconscious and unplanned except by nature in a last-ditch effort to save the race from extinction, and doomed to failure. They could not stop change, and resistance to it was self-defeating, antisurvival.

>A race with no room for learning, no room for growth, was no longer equipped for an inherently changing environment, and they had passed beyond the point of developing in a different way. That would be left for a newer form, a different experiment of nature.

[Anonymous No.15457358]

>>15454063
Still waiting....

[Anonymous No.15457454]

>>15451854
It's not meant to make sense or transmit anything useful. Its function is to train jews to memorize and manipulate arcane legal systems.

Reminder that rabbis are rabbis because they're good at mapipulating the Talmud, and Jewish society ensures rabbis have the most children. It's a selection filter.

[Anonymous No.15457460]

>>15455045
What is this map with regards to? Sorry to go off-topic but I have no idea what's being displayed here. It looks like some kind of shittiness index, but in regards to what?

[Anonymous No.15457471]

>>15454208
Does the mohel spit or swallow?
I just realized I never thought about this until now.

[Anonymous No.15457481]

>religion

[Anonymous No.15457489]

If evens, I convert.

[Anonymous No.15457572]

>>15451854
>>15451889
>>15451904
>>15451985
>>15452010
>>15451986
>>15452024
>>15452045
>>15452058
>>15452078
>>15452132
all of you start using a trip so i can filter you

[Anonymous No.15458146]

>>15457460
Percent of males circumcised, but I'm just guessing.

[Anonymous No.15458598]

>>15454030
I never understood the high IQ argument. Even if it's 100% true (doubtful), the local population is just so much bigger than the jewish minority that it is bound to produce much more just as high IQ people from within its own ranks. Despite this, Jews are massively overrepresented, while the local population, despite mathematically having a much bigger talent pool, is massively underrepresented.

[Anonymous No.15458660]

>>15452078
>Secular Jew
>Marxism

Marxism was always secularized judaism for jews who weren't religious but not entirely assimilated either.

[Anonymous No.15458713]

>>15451889
guarantee lit is >50% jewish

[Anonymous No.15458729]

Treat them right, that’s what I always say.

I know god, he’s my buddy and he hates me.

Why is he always so angry?

[Anonymous No.15458739]

>>15451854
Could any of you kikes give me tips about learning Aramaic? I've checked amazon for textbooks but the ones available look pretty bootleg. How do rabbis learn the language?

[Anonymous No.15459126]

>>15457471
I wouldn’t know because it was a “reform” mutilation ceremony, and there was a lot of laughing and cheering for he baby. We did have food and drinks after though and treated it like a party. I wasn’t hungry and ate nothing.

>>15458598
Jewish women are the pickiest selective mates in the world and will only marry and have kids with high-achieving intelligent individuals, wether they are Jewish or not. This has been going on for two thousand years.

>>15458739
He average Jew has no clue what Aramaic even is.

[Anonymous No.15459490]

It's weird how there is an actual cogent discussion happening itt, without much derailment
Very, very weird

[Anonymous No.15460578]

>>15458739
Jastrow is the go-to Talmud dictionary. Steinzaltz talmud is great if you know hebrew but if you don’t know hebrew you can’t study Mishnah which pretty much already makes you a faggot.

Sefaria.

[Anonymous No.15460607]

>>15451854
Not my problem you’re a retard.
There’s a reason goyim hate the talmud. It has lots of value in teaching the basic underpinnings of Jewish philosophy and law, and also teaches you how to fuck with legal systems which we definitely use.

Studying talmud expecting some great spiritual revelation will leave you disappointed as it gives nothing of the sort. Its complexity filters brainlet goyim and uncommitted Jews like you.

Anyone thinking of studying Kabbalah without years of familiarity with Jewish study and learning will misunderstand it.
True today as it was 200 years ago

[Anonymous No.15460999]

>>15460578
>Steinzaltz

How did you guys ever come to have these ridiculous surnames, like, even Germans can tell you from their own with decent accuracy based on surname alone lmao

[Anonymous No.15461239]

>>15451854
Why is modern day Hebrew literature such a fucking literary wasteland? I thought kikes were supposed to be good at literature, what happened?

[Anonymous No.15461296]

>>15460607
Kabbalism is just convoluted Kundalini raising.
Fucking hell, you could join the OTO or Crowley's AA and receive the same results doing tantric sex rituals.
You basically become a schizo and invite poltergeist activity into your life at a certain point before crossing the waters fully.
Kabbalists literally just deceive people at first so they can reap the rewards of working with off-world entities.

[Anonymous No.15461333]

>>15460607
>>15461296
And also it's not even Jewish in origin. It was taken from the Greeks and Egyptians.

[Anonymous No.15461621]

>>15453208
yes

[Anonymous No.15461761]

>>15458713
>guarantee lit is >50% jewish
So that explains all the pseuds.

[Anonymous No.15461861]

>>15461296
>Kabbalism is just convoluted Kundalini raising.
Yeah pretty much all esoteric and mystery religion is this, if it's worth anything.
Some will take you as far as OBE and lucid dreaming faggots call this "shamanism" but if it's serious it's one of the thousand paths to kundalini.
Ultimately there's not many options for the human being. You want true transcendence? Kundalini is what we get. There's lots of ways to kindle that fire but flame is flame is flame.

[Anonymous No.15461875]

>>15461861
Yeah, I get tired of people claiming superiority and that their way is the true origin of these practices.
These religious leaders will never have an answer to why Manly P. Hall claimed the rituals of the Native Americans had resemblance to Masonic rites.

[Anonymous No.15461967]

>>15461875
A 12th degree AMORC rosi spilled the beans to me back in the aughts that that's what they're about too. Of course they have their own method as well. But it's Kundalini all the way down.

[Anonymous No.15461990]

>>15461861
Does OBE actually work? I am the OP and I used to be really good at lucid dreaming but lost the power to do it for some reason. And I know 100% that I dont need Jewish mystic malarkey to try do OBE. It is all just messing with your brain.
If you do Wim Hof's breathing exercise enough like 10x+ rounds, you can literally give yourself a seizure.
All of this astral projection stuff etc is just fucking with your brain chemistry.

[Anonymous No.15462027]

>>15461990
>Does OBE actually work?
Yes. It's not at all like lucid dreaming. Although if you lose focus it can turn into dreaming.

>It is all just messing with your brain.
Maybe. Who knows.

[Anonymous No.15462038]

>>15461967
I'd tell you my affiliations, but I don't want to express anything more than I need to on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.15462093]

>>15462038
No problem. I'm not in any org or group although I was in the Demolay when I was a kid so I'm not beholden to any oath of secrecy. I'm free to say whatever I like, so I do.

[Anonymous No.15462184]

>>15462093
You got Masons in the family or something?

[Anonymous No.15462294]

>>15462184
Grandfather was master of his lodge for a decade. First cousin was 33rd SR also baptized me shit was so cash. Mom was OES.

I found Demolay boring and the rainbow girls didn't want to fuck me so I dropped out after two years.

[Anonymous No.15462305]

>>15461239
They have almost total hegemony now. Why would they need to play the literature game anymore?

[Anonymous No.15463282]

>>15462294
Damn so homosexuality IS a choice

[Anonymous No.15463948]

>>15451889
So that’s where all that coom threads come from

[Anonymous No.15463992]

How do I know if a Jew is based?

Most of the ones I know do stereotypically Jewish shit like working at Facebook, trying to get the Japanese to accept immigrants, real estate, Jewish studies etc and I just want a Jew friend who is semi-redpilled. The only based Jew I ever met was an Israeli and he was fucking cool but the rest are all kikey

[Anonymous No.15464163]

>>15451854
You dare to betray the race? YHWH will lift you in the air, lift you, and slam you down on the ground. Then only, will you understand, how weak you are, facing God. Daring to reject your God's command, his wrath will be terrible.