/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15435667]

>Tyranny in democratic republics does not proceed in the same way, however. It ignores the body and goes straight for the soul. The master no longer says: You will think as I do or die. He says: You are free not to think as I do. You may keep your life, your property, and everything else. But from this day forth you shall be as a stranger among us. You will retain your civic privileges, but they will be of no use to you. For if you seek the votes of your fellow citizens, they will withhold them, and if you seek only their esteem, they will feign to refuse even that. You will remain among men, but you will forfeit your rights to humanity. When you approach your fellow creatures, they will shun you as one who is impure. And even those who believe in your innocence will abandon you, lest they, too, be shunned in turn. Go in peace, I will not take your life, but the life I leave you with is worse than death. ~Alexis de Tocqueville
He really hit the nail on the head here didn't he? No wonder I can't get laid.

[Anonymous No.15435703]

>>15435667
Alexis de Tocqueville on cancel culture smmfh

[Anonymous No.15435720]

>>15435667
i said trump was a big ol' cheeto, and my meemaw stopped responding to me on facebook. dang.

[Anonymous No.15435811]

>>15435667
muh Tyranny of Majority .. fuck off. I like Tocqueville but I'm tired of seeing this line from conservatives endlessly recycling the same trite talking points about the Tyranny of the Majority, even as they systematically gerrymander and suppress the vote, and even as the U.S system as its currently set up is the exact opposite, giving added political weight via the Senate and the electoral college to smaller less populous states. I don't necessarily have a problem with this line, it's just not at all true to how political power works in contemporary America.

[Anonymous No.15436066]

>>15435811
Thats a lot of projection to cope with an accurate observation. Rhetorical version of "nu uh, u!"

[Anonymous No.15436081]

>>15435811
Wow its almost as if the system is working as designed

[Anonymous No.15436134]

>>15436066
"Projection" Get a load of this retard. Maybe try looking up a word before using it. No I don't believe Tyranny of the Majority, as conservatives describe it, is a real phenomenon. Sure if you're a conservative in a liberal city some people might look at you weird if you say something conservative, but the reverse is true of liberals in small towns. In regards to political power, if anything today the opposite could be argued, that non-populous more rural states have a disproportionate advantage via the Senate. So no I don't think the Tyranny of the Majority is a real issue today.

[Anonymous No.15436202]

>>15436134
>if you're the minority in one group, you will be shunned
>but if you're the opposite minority in the oppisite group, you will also be shunned
>therefore, the imposition of the majority upon the minority isnt real

[Anonymous No.15436203]

>>15436134
You're responding to a sociological observation with
>but conservatives do THIS
Textbook case of projection. Never gave my political opinions at any point, yet you make a whole slew of assumptions and accused me of voter suppression and gerrymandering based on a single paragraph that I did not even write.
Almost as though expressing an opinion outside of certain permitted bounds of observation is causing you to "shun me as one who is impure".
Maybe you just lack self awareness.

>In regards to political power, if anything today the opposite could be argued, that non-populous more rural states have a disproportionate advantage via the Senate
Have you even read Tocqueville? I don't think you have.

[Anonymous No.15436272]

>... fuck off
>I'm tired of seeing this line from conservatives
>trite talking points
>even as they systematically
>even as the U.S system as its currently set up is the exact opposite
>Get a load of this retard
>as conservatives describe it
>Sure if ... some people might look at you weird if you say something conservative
>but the reverse is true of liberals in small towns
>if anything today the opposite could be argued
>So no I don't think ... is a real issue today
I'm glad I don't live in the US. Can't imagine having a frank and candid conversation about anything in a country full of you retards.

[Anonymous No.15436288]

>>15436203
>accused me of voter suppression and gerrymandering based on a single paragraph
I never accused you of voter suppression. I'm not even sure what that would mean. I don't think you know what either of those words mean because you seem to believe those are things the average individual citizen can do. Gerrymandering is the redrawing of district lines for political gain, and voter suppression describes a wide variety of measures that make voting more difficult.
>textbook case of projection
Once again proving that you don't know what that word means. Here is the definition: "Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others."
>Have you even read Tocqueville? I don't think you have.
I've read several sections of Democracy in America for a class. Irregardless, it's a fact that the the Senate disproportionately benefits low population states because it gives equal weight to ever state, whatever Tocqueville said isn't going to change reality.
For further reading: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/17/21011079/senate-bias-2020-data-for-progress

[Anonymous No.15436324]

>>15436272
Okay Eurofag.

[Anonymous No.15436332]

>>15436288
>i read a couple chapters for a class
>most of my understanding is based on tbe professors interpretation
>i also read a vox article lol

[Anonymous No.15436357]

>>15436332
Don't care, tell me how the Senate benefits the majority, actually respond to my points. You can't because you have no evidence.

[Anonymous No.15436393]

>>15436357
The senate isnt designed to benefit the majority, retard. Nor does OPs quote even reference the civic institutions. Thought this should have been clear in the very first sentence where he specified an attack on the soul rather than the body. The point is way beyond you.

[Anonymous No.15436400]

>>15436288
>I've read several sections of Democracy in America for a class
Lol so you skimmed it and had an authority figure tell you what to think? Hilarious. Tocqueville, a close personal friend of mine, would appreciate the irony.
>I never accused you of voter suppression
You jumped into a rant about it despite Tocqueville's observation having nothing to do with such things, just because you perceive somehow that Tocqueville is a conservative talking point.
>Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself
Yes
>against unconscious impulses or qualities by denying their existence in themselves
Yes
>while attributing them to others
You were just talking about how conservatives do this. I don't even know where you get that from. And the whole "Tyranny of the Majority" phrase you keep capitalizing was never mentioned, Tocqueville was simply observing the tendency of democracies to expect certain opinions from their citizens and America to ostracize citizens for having the wrong opinions.
Which you are trying to do, painting me as a republican right winger for sharing an observational quote written hundreds of years ago
>linking to a fucking vox article
Fuck you're dumb. Pull your head out of whatever partisan circlejerk you've been engaged in and learn how to read. What is being described is the tendency of Republics towards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deplatforming as a means of political control. Yet you jump into a rant about poor rural white people having an influence on the country they live in. Very dishonest response.

[Anonymous No.15436413]

>>15436203
>>15436066
utterly based

[Anonymous No.15436426]

>>15435811
since the hart-celler act was passed in the 1960s, whites have been reduced from 90% of the population to a minority of births. so you can fuck off with your disingenuous whining about muh gerrymandering and nigger suppression

[Anonymous No.15436451]

>>15436426
>the reason I didn't break down the PoC vote into various groups by gender ethnicity or education level is that no matter how I broke it down it was always 100% blue
so this is the power of diversity

[Anonymous No.15436463]

>>15435667
Public life is artificial, this may be more extreme but it's hardly a new development. If you have unconventional views the only way to enact them is to amass power first, isn't that a good thing for what is technically extremism? Some kind of vetting process that is?

>>15436451
>tfw if white people voted as one giant bloc they'd be accused of the vilest and most undemocratic prejudices
It's interesting to see a nation destroy itself, the psychology of it is fascinating.

[Anonymous No.15436501]

>>15436400
>Which you are trying to do, painting me as a republican right winger for sharing an observational quote written hundreds of years ago
My original post was clearly not directed personally at you. I said "conservatives" nothing about OP. I'm not sure why you're taking this as a personal attack. Neither did my post have anything to do with Tocqueville's ideas himself, as I clearly said I like parts of Tocqueville, I was merely commenting on the tendency of Conservatives to misuse him in an ill-suited attempt to whinge about Tyranny of the Majority because some rando got yelled at by Twitter cucks. Meanwhile you've addressed none of my points, why are you being so intellectually dishonest? You're claiming I'm being partisan but all I've done is bring up objective facts regarding how the political system works in America.

[Anonymous No.15436511]

>>15435811
>Tyranny of the majority
>majority votes for Prop. 187
>Judge blocks it because "delegation of powers"
>Are Democracy? Protected.

[Anonymous No.15436513]

>>15436426
>since the hart-celler act was passed in the 1960s, whites have been reduced from 90% of the population to a minority of births.
And why exactly should I care? That's not a conspiracy that's basic demographics. If a majority of voters are non-white (and a majority of voters voted for the representatives that passed that act) that's just what it is we live in a democracy. So please tell me why I should give a shit.

[Anonymous No.15436523]

>>15436513
*addition: also just to clarify a majority of voters are white. White people still constitute something like 70-80% of Americans

[Anonymous No.15436525]

>>15436463
>It's interesting to see a nation destroy itself, the psychology of it is fascinating.
To be fair though, it is a bit unfair - white supremacy is real as a political phenomenon, by bloc voting they're essentially shirking obligations to the subject races they rule. It's just that no one wants to be honest about the realities of the US empire because it would threaten the egalitarian ideals of the post-war order

[Anonymous No.15436533]

>>15436523
>White people still constitute something like 70-80% of Americans
Try 50% mate. You have to remove Jews, other Middle Eastern peoples, and aspirationally-white Latinos.

[Anonymous No.15436542]

>>15436513
Not that anon and I'm not going to tell you why you should care, but "Everyone voted for it so it's probably morally right" is a very flimsy argument.

[Anonymous No.15436555]

>>15436513
Because that's exactly it. You have a majority of people who don't want to be replaced, and yet, there is a small minority who do want to see people replaced and in a democratic system these things are not voted for. Then you mask it under "majority oppression" while not a single person had a say in whether or not they were going to be replaced or not.

>inb4 lol then dont vote for x or y
Easy to say of course, when the difference between left and right, democrat or republican, red or blue, is practically none. That's the political system the west is living in today. Sure there are minor differences here and there, and there are actors on both sides with clearly laid out thoughts, patterns and behavior but as a whole, on the broad spectrum where politics lay and where things happen, the difference is none. Potato potato, or as you should say, politician politician.

[Anonymous No.15436568]

>>15436542
Yeah you're right, I wrote the response quickly without thinking. I would say I support expanding immigration in general because by and large from most economic studies I find the effect of immigration fiscally either breaks even or is a slight negative, and as a whole immigration is a positive to our economy. Outside of the economic benefit, I see no reason to preferentially prefer one group of people over another morally, it just strikes me as arbitrary/

[Anonymous No.15436601]

>>15436555
>democrat or republican, red or blue, is practically none.
Objectively false. Look at the platforms for both parties and the voting records of Senators and Congresspersons. On almost every issue Democrat and Republican representatives are diametrically opposed. This statement is so politically illiterate it's hilarious. This is just a meme that goes around among people who want to sound intelligent but don't want to do the actual work of following politics.

[Anonymous No.15436606]

>>15436501
How do you know if anyone misuses him if you've never even read him? It seems to me that the only dishonesty is from the person making commentary on the author he hasnt read.

[Anonymous No.15436632]

>>15436606
>if anyone misuses him if you've never even read him
I have though, how about read what I wrote before writing. And one again I'm not commenting on Tocqueville.

[Anonymous No.15436633]

>>15436601
And yet, year after year, decade after decade, absolutely nothing changes.

Here we are in 2020, still at war in the middle east even though we have had both democrats and republicans in power. A federal reserve that has completely undermined the economy, acting the same (on political orders, fuck off with your muh independency) whether it's the republicans or democrats in power. Still illegals running rampant, still the same shitty healthcare system, still the same shitty insurance system. Republican, democrat, it's just more of the same. Nothing changes, the system is already set whether it's red or blue on top. In the end the difference is none. Politician politician.

[Anonymous No.15436645]

>>15436632
You've read a couple chapters for your undergrad polisci GE requriement and are playing expert. You say conservatives misuse him. How do you know conservatives misuse him when you havent even read a whole book written by him?

[Anonymous No.15436714]

>>15436501
The first line of your post, I will remind you, was
>muh Tyranny of Majority .. fuck off
If your post has nothing to do with Tocqueville's ideas, why post in a thread clearly created with the intention of discussing Tocqueville's ideas?

>I was merely commenting on the tendency of Conservatives to misuse him
AS the other poster said, you've never even read Tocqueville. How can you accuse anyone of "misusing" him when you've never actually grappled with his thinking in any capacity beyond skimming a couple selections and regurgitating your professors opinion?

>some rando got yelled at by Twitter cucks
Again you are resorting to obviously charged and politicized rhetoric... perhaps in an attempt to appeal to what you believe my opinions are? I don't even live in a republic, but I found that his observations were consistent with my own while living and traveling in the USA.

>Tyranny of the Majority
Stop capitalizing this. You're referring to a concept put forward by John Stewart Mill, not Tocqueville. Probably you haven't read either of them. You're dishonestly creating a strawman "conservative" then tearing it down without actually engaging with source material. I didn't even go to college and I can tell you're full of shit.

[Anonymous No.15436727]

>>15436645
I mean you all are hyper-focusing on Tocqueville, when it's very clear from my original comment that I'm talking about modern conservatives seeming to draw on similar arguments. And Tbh no I don't really care if conservatives do or don't use him correctly, and I don't have the requisite knowledge to make that judgment, and nor have I claimed to have that knowledge. What I do know is that I often see conservatives talk about the Tyranny of the Majority to describe what they see as liberal majoritarianism seemingly drawing from Tocqueville and that was what my original comment was objecting to. Perhaps I poorly worded it and it was overly reactive. But no I'm not "playing the expert" as I never claimed to know much about what Tocqueville said or believed. You are playing bullshit semantics games and I'm tired, if you have a real point to make make it.

[Anonymous No.15436739]

>>15436727
I know a lot of conservatives and none of them even know who Tocqueville is, let alone reference him or the tyranny of the majorty. Not sure where you get this idea about a hyper focus on him from. Maybe your professor told you that and you just believed it because you're too sheltered to know otherwise.

[Anonymous No.15436757]

>>15436727
>I mean you all are hyper-focusing on Tocqueville
This is a thread about Tocqueville after all.
You are extremely disingenuous, and really just prove T's argument correct.
Get out of your circlejerk and go read a book that doesn't blindly confirm your previous biases.
There's one in particular, it's called Democracy in America, that I can't recommend highly enough.

[Anonymous No.15436774]

>>15436714
>How can you accuse anyone of "misusing" him when you've never actually grappled with his thinking in any capacity beyond skimming a couple selections and regurgitating your professors opinion?
Holy shit you're assuming so many things about me that I never said. As I've said I have read Tocqueville and no not just "skimming". I realize now looking back that you're post wasn't intended as a political statement and I totally misread it and read into it my own feelings directed them to something you didn't say or intend. My bad.

[Anonymous No.15436990]

>>15436774
Good, now say "uncle"