/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15417002]

I just read The Stranger. I'm a bit confused by the last chapter and I'm going to reread it because it seems like the most important. But leading up to it, basically the sense I'm getting is that Meursault is the ultimate laze. Most of his motivations are sensory, and his only goal really is doing whatever he feels like doing at that moment. This can be seen at his mother's funeral, where he goes into vastly more detail complaining about the heat on the way there than any feeling he has for his mother. He barely even mentions the funeral itself, instead just saying how glad he was to get it over with and go home. Only after he is condemned to death does he start to realize the seriousness of his situation, but out of laziness he doesn't dwell on the fact but uses the fact that every person is going to die as a coping mechanism, again taking the path of least resistance.

I know I'm missing something. Meursault has to have something more to offer than just being a lazy sociopath right? What are your thoughts?

[Anonymous No.15417043]

I dink de boy shoot muslim because hate crime in white nations man. It's the whole book about white nationalism and black slavery man he shot the arab only to justify white master race. Camus was hidden racist man.

[Anonymous No.15417049]

1. it was an arab
2. the sun was blinding
3. it was hot

[Anonymous No.15417063]

>>15417049
4. The sky flashed

[Anonymous No.15417107]

>>15417002
Camus said this book is about absurdity of our life, like the fact that he didn't cry on his mother's funeral lead to his death sentence, that life has no hidden meaning and just a sequence of random events

[Anonymous No.15417130]

>>15417002
Mersault isn’t a sociopath, he is just treated as one because he doesn’t behave in a predictable manner.

[Anonymous No.15417144]

>>15417002
Go read Camus' play Caligula, it's meant to be read in tandem with The Stranger and an essay called The Myth of Sisyphus. They all explore the same theme.

[Anonymous No.15417147]

>>15417130
But I think he actually is

[Anonymous No.15417159]

>>15417147
You're completely wrong and very bad at reading.

[Anonymous No.15417164]

>>15417147
>I think he actually is
Congratulations, you're as dumb as the courts in the book were.

[Anonymous No.15417174]

>>15417159
He has no emotional connection with anybody in his life, doen't it mean he at least have some sociopathic tendencies?

[Anonymous No.15417180]

>>15417147
You can think whatever you want you're still wrong

[Anonymous No.15417187]

>>15417174
does it?

[Anonymous No.15417192]

>>15417187
I don't know

[Anonymous No.15417200]

>>15417174
What sort of bullshit pop-psychology definition of aspd are you using? No, it doesn't.

[Anonymous No.15417212]

>>15417159
I don't get how the interpretation that he is a sociopath can be that far off. He literally says he has never felt remorse and doesn't care about the death of his own mother. Also, has absolutely no care for the woman who loves him. If anything, you're the one who's bad at reading for not even entertaining the idea that he could be and also not providing a counterargument.

>>15417043
I get you're trying to meme but I think the fact that the arabs like the woman Raymond beats and the one Mersault kills are barely even discussed is a commentary on colonialism. Like, the arabs don't really matter, it's all about the frenchmen. Raymond can justify his beating of an Arab, so he gets away unpunished even though he undoubtedly has worse morals while Mersault faces death because he can't justify or show remorse for the fact that he has killed.

[Anonymous No.15417213]

Like I don't mean that he deserved death, but he clearly sees other people just as props

[Anonymous No.15417218]

I think he's the kind of person who doesn't do stuff, stuff just happens to them. Even killing another person.

[Anonymous No.15417231]

>>15417002
Meursault is supposed to represent the nihilist man that doesn't accept the responsibility of crafting his own morals. Instead of taking nihilism as a starting point, he treats it as the end. "Nothing matter so I should just do whatever I want!" vs. "Nothing matters...What is truly important to ME?" He gives into nihilism instead of building his own sytem of morals.

If you identify with Meurusalt you missed the point of the book, which is why it's meant to be read in pair with TMoS.

[Anonymous No.15417244]

>>15417002
>Only after he is condemned to death does he start to realize the seriousness of his situation,
I disagree, the point was that there wasn't any seriousness to his situation. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I think that was Camus's philosophy. The book is meant to clarify the view of the sort of person that acts as he does, not critique it. I wouldn't want to live such a way myself, but the book presents the reasons some do. Because, from a certain view, it doesn't really matter much the choices one makes or the fate one gets, and any value placed on it is a decision. If one decides not to care, they don't have to.

[Anonymous No.15417246]

>>15417212
You're the one reading a novel about coming face to face with the meaninglessness of existence and somehow managing to conclude that the character is a sociopath. The last sections of the book fundamentally refute your midwit take on Mersault as a sociopath. In fact, when yelling at the priest Mersault talks about how no one has any right to pass judgement on him for reacting to situations in a way they don't understand.
>>15417231
>Meursault is supposed to represent the nihilist man
Here's something from Camus for both of you:

>I summarized The Stranger a long time ago, with a remark I admit was highly paradoxical: "In our society any man who does not weep at his mother's funeral runs the risk of being sentenced to death." I only meant that the hero of my book is condemned because he does not play the game.
The fact that you both see Mersault as anything other than a person facing the absurd is fucking retarded.

[Anonymous No.15417250]

>>15417174
Just because he doesn't cry at a funeral doesn't mean he didn't love his mother. Some people are okay with the fact that people they love die. Just a part of life.

[Anonymous No.15417251]

>>15417212
>the fact that the arabs like the woman Raymond beats and the one Mersault kills are barely even discussed is a commentary on colonialism

Agreed... if Mersault had lied and tried to justify his reason for killing the Arab man, claiming self defense, he would have easily been let off the hook. During this time in France, no one cared about Arabs. However, because Meursault makes no attempt to justify his actions, he is abhorred by society and sentenced to die.

[Anonymous No.15417254]

>>15417244
>but I think that was Camus's philosophy
You're also wrong. Camus doesn't say that things do or don't matter, or that things are or aren't serious. He regularly engaged in politics, regularly gave speeches, and his last philosophy book (the rebel) deals with politics.

[Anonymous No.15417277]

>>15417250
But I think he was just annoyed with whole funeral situation, don't think there was love somehow involved

[Anonymous No.15417319]

>>15417246
first of all, why are you so mad

secondly, I'm not passing any judgement on the character for being a sociopath. All I am saying is that he does not care about people other than himself and I am using this observation to try to understand the character better

[Anonymous No.15417321]

>>15417277
Even if he doesn't love her, he accepts and tries to understand her. Remember the part where he is reflecting on his mom getting a boyfriend at the retirement home and remarks that she earned her right to "start over"? If he didn't care about her at all why would he empathize with her actions?

[Anonymous No.15417331]

>>15417321
Probably I should reread it

[Anonymous No.15417387]

It's a bit hard to say that the point is that there is no point but... that's the point really. Shit happened and that was it. He could only become content when he acknowledged that.

[Anonymous No.15417394]

>>15417002
Another question I have--what should I have read before jumping into this book? Admittedly, I have no philosophical background but I enrolled in an ancient greek philosophy course in the fall. I know /lit/ likes for you to read everything in order but the used bookstore I went to didn't have the Aeneid which I was looking for and this book seemed interesting

[Anonymous No.15417402]

I'm going to read The Stranger soon. What am I in for?

[Anonymous No.15417425]

>>15417394
Nothing. You should have an understanding of basic philosophies like altruism and religious doctrine, but the book is functionally just addressing our relationship with reality.

[Anonymous No.15417435]

>>15417319
>first of all, why are you so mad
>secondly, I'm not passing any judgement on the character for being a sociopath. All I am saying is that he does not care about people other than himself and I am using this observation to try to understand the character better
I am literally always mad. Secondly, I mentioned in an above post that you should read Caligula and The Myth of Sisyphus, which were all meant to be read together. You're reading a very specific type of fiction and maneuvering in a way that strips it of it's identity. If you read the other two pieces you'll have a much better understanding of what Camus was actually saying instead of what you're able to grasp as simulacra.

[Anonymous No.15417445]

>>15417394
Nothing. One of the neat things about the Existentialists is that they would write novels, stories, and plays that explore ideas in a way that don't require you to have a literary background. Sure, there's things you'll miss if you're not into philosophy but it won't make it so you can't understand the topics.

[Anonymous No.15417487]

He loved his mother and actually wanted to bone her

source
https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/lost-in-translation-what-the-first-line-of-the-stranger-should-be

[Anonymous No.15417508]

>>15417435
I'll read myth of Sisyphus because I'm intrigued but I always can't help but wonder what authors would think about the other works 4chan insists you must read alongside their books. I'm not saying Camus wouldn't have wanted TMoS to be read alongside the stranger but sometimes I feel like theres sort of an autistic obsession with reading every possible text that a book alludes to before reading the book itself.

[Anonymous No.15417521]

>>15417445
But should I dive into existentialist philosophy before getting a background in other schools of thought? Like is existentialism a response to an other -ism that I should understand first before trying to understand the existentialists?

[Anonymous No.15417527]

>>15417521
Existentialism is a response to other philosophies but it's philosophies you generally know about. It's really just a response to "making sense of the world"

[Anonymous No.15417539]

>>15417521
existentialism is a response to nihilism and since you were born after the 50s you have an inherent knowledge about both of them

[Anonymous No.15417549]

>>15417508
For fucks sake you absolute mong Camus literally released all three for the explicit purpose of them being read together. He even has interviews where he talks about his method of blending together greek mythology, plays, philosophy, and literature to explore ideas.
>>15417521
Existentialism is primarily based around phenomenology (Heidegger and Husserl) which is heavily influenced by Decartes' Meditations.
>>15417527
Nope.
>>15417539
Nope.

[Anonymous No.15417566]

>>15417549
Absurdism is not at all based on phenomenology

[Anonymous No.15417573]

>>15417174
The book sets up the scenario that he has lived with his mother for years, and has watched her slowly decay for the entire time-to the point where they have nothing to say to each other because she is so far gone. He clearly cared for his mother as he tried to take care of her, but he when her time came it was hardly a shock to him. But because he didn’t throw a fit and wail people assumed he didn’t love her.
He cared about the girl he was banging, you can gather as much when he is thinking about her in prison. He just wasn’t head over heels in love- he doesn’t carry on about it making a big display.
And as for his lack of remorse for murder, the Arab had threatened he and his friends before, and pulled a knife whose glare caused Mersault to be blinded, so he shot. He saw it as a random event showing the absurdity of life, and didn’t really feel bad for the other guy because they already had some enmity.
Read the monologue he delivers to the priest again and see if those are the words of a man cut off from his emotions/humanity.

[Anonymous No.15417576]

>>15417549
How can you not say there is a relationship between absurdism, existentialism, and nihilism?

[Anonymous No.15417609]

>>15417566
Please tell me where I said Absurdism is based on phenomenology.
>>15417576
There's a relationship to them but existentialism makes use of phenomenological ontology to address the conditions of the absurd and nihilations. In the myth of Sisyphus Camus points out, early on, that his Absurd is Sartre's concept of Nausea, which Sarte addresses by way of his existential phenomenology.

[Anonymous No.15417631]

>>15417521
I mean, if you wanna read the Brothers Karamazov and Crime and Punishment read those before Myth of Sysiphus because he spoils the fuck out of them but otherwise you’re good to go, he explains the basics of the philosophical predecessors he talks about pretty well.

[Anonymous No.15417646]

>>15417631
He also spoils the plot of Kirilov from Dosto's Demons.

[Anonymous No.15417657]

>>15417549
Ya I said I didn’t doubt he’d want them to be read together.

You seem passionate about this which is great but just attacking people who are trying to learn more/voicing their reactions to a text that differ from yours doesnt seem like a good way to approach things.

You would think someone who is into a philosophy based around the fact that nothing matters would take themselves less seriously

[Anonymous No.15417677]

>>15417657
>a bloo bloo bloo someone's being mean to me and my reddit spacing here on 4chan

[Anonymous No.15417685]

>>15417657
>into a philosophy based around the fact that nothing matters
If you've made it through this thread and still managed to have that opinion you're denser than a fucking black hole.

[Anonymous No.15417756]

>>15417573
Yeah you've made me consider his relationship with his mother a bit more. I guess he just wasn't very serious about her death because it happens to everybody. I will say though, was he not merely going through the motions of "caring?" He just did what he had to do to keep her alive, really.

As for Marie, he thinks about her in prison but also when he first gets there, he says he fantasizes about women and specifically not about Marie.

The arab I see he had no reason to care about but the other two it feels like a normal person would've demonstrated more emotion.

[Anonymous No.15417770]

>>15417609
Existentialism is so obviously a response to nihilism that I won't even waste time trying to prove it to you. You're just stanning your favorite philosophers rofl

[Anonymous No.15417775]

>>15417144
Nice rec ty

[Anonymous No.15417781]

>>15417677
I don't care that you're being mean I just don't like how you're hijacking my thread by calling everyone out for being a "fucking mong" and not really adding to the discussion other than saying
>REEEE you have to read this other work the author did or else you won't get it also YOURE FUCKING RETARDED REEEE

[Anonymous No.15417793]

>>15417435
>I am literally always mad.
Based

[Anonymous No.15417828]

>>15417781
Yeah, is it upsetting that you came to a literature board and got told to read more works to make sense of an author? Or the fact that I've related scenes from the novel as well as a quote from Camus that fundamentally show that not only are you wrong, but you also maintain a retarded viewpoint that is held by characters in the novel, who are shown to be retarded? Or was it the posts where I talk about Existentialism being a philosophical movement that was built off phenomenology?

[Anonymous No.15417852]

did you not read the last pages? it explains that he did not feel sadness for his mother’s death because he believed it was a waste of time to grieve the death of someone who wanted to die? he isn’t necessarily a sociopath but a person who dictates life according to the actual reality that he perceives

[Anonymous No.15417859]

>>15417770
I'd actually love for you to tell me that, or even recommend me a work of Existentialist philosophy that declares itself a response to nihilism. Sartre was exploring the territory initially pioneered by Husserl's chosen successor, Heidegger. I guarantee you have no ability to legitimately engage with philosophy, let alone Existentialism.

[Anonymous No.15417884]

>>15417756
I see what you mean, but try thinking of it this way: what man doesn’t fantasize about lots of different women?
Mersault is trapped in a concrete cube away from the rest of humanity, from an extended period of time, so this on its own is not strange. On top of that, he only just recently started fucking Marie. He likes her, but he never said he was in love. That’s an expectation placed on him by others.
It’s Camus fucking with you by making you look at Mersault the same way the jury did- nothing Mersault does is really that strange upon reflection, but in the context of him having killed a man people try to connect all these dots to create a picture of a sociopathic killer.
Which leads to Camus’s point about how trials are often more showmanship and storytelling than anything and that it is an unacceptable way to decide who lives and dies.

[Anonymous No.15417915]

>>15417884
>how trials are often more showmanship and storytelling than anything and that it is an unacceptable way to decide who lives and dies.
One of the neat things about Camus making this point is that it's yet another demonstration of the absurd. We expect for the court to be about truth, we are told it is about truth, yet we find it to be anything but that.

[Anonymous No.15417917]

>>15417002
I like Camus c:

[Anonymous No.15417939]

>>15417174
If you've had someone you love die slowly then you'd understand that there is a level of relief once they die because that are no suffering. Additionally, slow deaths let you come to terms with it.

[Anonymous No.15417940]

>>15417521
read the sarte essay “existentialism is humanism” to understand the basis for the thought that would influence camus

[MICKEY MOUSE SHOCK TROOPS No.15418077]

found pic of the doomer OP

[Anonymous No.15418143]

>>15417852
>>15417884
I feel like people misinterpret what I meant by sociopath. I don't mean to say that he is like some sort of Ted Bundy character who just kills and feels no remorse, but he does show a surprising apathy towards most things. I'm using the word "sociopath" strictly as an adjective for someone who doesn't care for other people/doesn't show very much emotion at all.
The only things he really responds to are sensory inputs. He talks to people to shut them up because they annoy him. He kills the man on the beach because the sun is too hot and there's sweat in his eyes(supposedly). He likes Marie because of the way she feels when he touches her and because she looks pretty.

One passage from the fourth chapter of part two interested me. He's talking about how the prosecutor isn't really wrong in his portrayal of the events.
>What he was saying was plausible. I had agreed with Raymond to write the letter in order to lure his mistress and submit her to mistreatment by a man "of doubtful morality." I had provoked Raymond's adversaries at the beach. I had asked him to give me his gun. I had gone back alone intending to use it.
This sort of seems like a contradiction to how he told the events earlier in the book. He says he went back to feel the coolness of the spring and the overbearing heat of the sun and the glare from the knife made him pull the trigger. But here it isn't clear whether he is just recounting the prosecutors story of the events or agreeing with him on how they took place. After all, what reason are we really given for why he killed the arab. Are we really expected to believe he just got hotand wasn't thinking?

[Anonymous No.15418192]

>>15418143
I feel like the first half of the book Mersault is being unreliable. I was taken aback by how much he was willing to partake in a friendship with Raymond despite his obviously scummy behavior. Are we and the jury really "retarded" for condemning someone who fraternizes with an alleged pimp and known domestic abuser? He makes it seem as if he just falls into these predicaments, but he didn't have to write the letter to the woman, and he didn't have to go to the police station to vouch for Raymond. In fact, most of what he had shown as a character up to that point would make it seem like he wouldn't want to go out of his way like that to help someone out.

[Anonymous No.15418298]

>>15418192
It's been a bit since I read the book, but I always read it as Mersault is a dude who has very few preferences of his own and just goes along with whatever. Think Shadow in the first part of American Gods or what we might call an NPC. What does it matter if the guy is a pimp and an abuser? It's who's around, he might as well spend time with him.

[Anonymous No.15418313]

>>15418192
>condemning someone who fraternizes with an alleged pimp and known domestic abuser
I see what you mean but imo that's a big stretch there. Condemnation of a murderer for irrefutably being a killer is one thing, condemning a man for who his friends are, for not crying at his mother's funeral; that's another thing entirely.
>The only things he really responds to are sensory inputs. He talks to people to shut them up because they annoy him. He kills the man on the beach because the sun is too hot and there's sweat in his eyes(supposedly). He likes Marie because of the way she feels when he touches her and because she looks pretty.
Maybe I'm missing something here as a person, but is there anything else we respond to? I like my best friend because of how he plays guitar with me, how his jokes make me laugh. I lay in the grass with the sun on my face because it feels good. I became a musician because I loved the way my throat felt as a signer. Girls I appreciate forhow they make me feel too. On one hand I get exactly what you're saying, but on the other hand what is there outside of what I experience?
>>15418298
God I love that image

[Anonymous No.15418671]

>>15418313
You have to take it in the context of my previous comment I replied to. Why should we have any sympathy for him or believe his story of "the sun made me do it" if the only thing he seems willing to do is hang out with this violent (alleged) pimp? He complains about having to go to his mother's funeral but has no problem writing a letter to entice this poor woman to come get a beating and going to the police station to get this guy (who he doesn't really know all that well) off for hitting her.
How could any reasonable person not conclude he went over to that arab on his own volition to kill him. I think his first telling us of how the killing went is unreliable; its just a more fleshed out and well-spoken version of the "the sun made me do it" excuse.

As far as the sensory input aspect: he only considers how something will make him feel when making a decision. To some degree, we all have this quality, but Meursault seems to take this to the extreme. Sure, you like your girlfriend because she's beautiful, but most people can point out other reasons they like their partner. All Mersault thinks about is her smile, the way her breast looks supple, the way her waist feels. If you notice, whenever he's seen talking to her, its mainly just to get her to shut up about getting married. He doesn't pay attention in court, he's only focused on how hot it is. Shouldn't he care somewhat about how she feels or enjoy conversing with her if he actually considers marrying her (which he does, at one point). Shouldn't he have more care for his own predicament and try to get himself out of getting executed? After getting sentenced, he is seen regretting not studying up on how to escape, so obviously he wants to avoid death. But he doesn't regret not helping his own case in court. As he sees it, responding in a way that would have helped his case made him uncomfortable, so he didn't do it. Not even considering the consequences. Just responding to his sensory input, not whats in his or anyone elses best interest in the future.