Did Tolkien plagiarise Wagner?

[Anonymous No.15377547]

[Anonymous No.15377557]

It's called taking inspiration.

[Anonymous No.15377580]

>>15377557
And then denying it?

[Anonymous No.15377666]

>>15377547
Yes and all fantasy writers since have plagiarised Tolkien

[Anonymous No.15377678]

>>15377666
Yes but that's commonly accepted, Tolkien denied that he had ever heard of the Ring(which is unlikely).

[Anonymous No.15377688]

Didn't he steal from the Finns?

[Anonymous No.15377711]

>>15377688
He got almost the entirety of his inspiration and basis from European myths, mainly Scandinavian, German and yes some Finnish somewhere. He claimed that the idea of the Ring came from the story of Siegfried, and in no way from Wagner, only the same material.

[Anonymous No.15377770]

>>15377678
I didn't know he denied it but I'm not dismissing the possibility he came to similar imagery because they used the same source material.

[Anonymous No.15377779]

>>15377547
I don't think so. The just used the same sources.

[Anonymous No.15377787]

>>15377711
Aren't you downplaying the Finnish influence?

The first book Tolkien ever wrote, was a translation of the story of Kullervo. Pic related.

>“It [discovering Finnish] was like discovering a wine-cellar filled with bottles of amazing wine of a kind and flavour never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me.”

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Letters, 87)

>Quenya is a constructed language created by Professor J. R. R. Tolkien. According to its creator, Quenya's main models were Latin, Finnish and Greek. It could perhaps be said that Finnish was the most important of these in the beginning, because it gave Tolkien the initial impulse to create Quenya. Finnish influence does indeed seem strong in the earliest forms of the language, at least in vocabulary, where many words are Finnish in style.

Why most people try to discredit the Finnish influence that Tolkien recreated with his Silmarillion/Lord of the Rings/World of Arda?

I see people here commenting absurd things like "Tolkien was channeling the Northern Spirit of European Folk-tales" etc, when it is clear that he is not talking about the Northern Spirit, but the Finnish spirit, the finnish landscapes and the finnish culture, heritage and language.

>But muh bible! Gandalf the white is Risen Jesus!
It is more than clear that Gandalf sole inspiration was the sage Väinämöinen.

>b-but muh Odin! The Grey Wanderer! He is Gandalf
It is clear that Odin shares little to none similarities with Gandalf. Perhaps the one Eye of Odin could be regarded as a reference to the one eye of Sauron

>B-but muh Merlin the Wizard! Surely he is the true inspiration of Gandalf
Absolutely not. Merlin resided in a tower, just like the corrupted wizard Saruman, whom Gandalf overthrows.

It could be universally agreeable to say, that without the Finns, Finnish language and the Kalevala, none of you people would have ever read Lord of the Rings that defined your childhood. Have some respect for once and be humble.

[Anonymous No.15377798]

> The Kalevala only inspired a portion of elf lore, which is a small portion of everything else.

Again downplaying the Finnish influence.

Whole Silmarillion reads like a total copy paste of the Kalevala. You think it was only linguistical aesthetics he borrowed? Think again.

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Tolkien Letters, 87)

Like there was three Silmarils, the Kalevala's Sampo has/had three qualities. Both are stolen/claimed by the forces of North. Melkor in Silmarillion, Louhi in Kalevala.

Both are stolen back by Enchantment. Luthién sings Melkor and whole Angband to sleep with her song and Beren steals the Silmarils back: In Kalevala Väinämöinen sings the song of enchantment and the whole forces of North fall sleep and the heroes steal the Sampo back

Both the Silmarils are lost/scattered around the world and thrown into sea, just like the North awakes and pursue ensues (just like in Silmarillion), Sampo is scattered to the sea/around the world, so in the end nobody possesses them

The magical Sampo (as the Silmarils were forged by great craftsman Fëanor, so was the Sampo forged by great craftsman and blacksmith Ilmarinen of which the word "Ilmen" of Arda derives from)

Silmarillion, more than anything, is 90% Finnish influence and basically the retelling of the heroic deeds of the Kalevala heroes in high fantasy setting

This is not even up for a debate, but academically recognized, historical fact.
Numerous academic treatises have also been written how Silmarillion is basically just retelling of the forging of Sampo:

http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfioulu-201804201498.pdf

Small portion of elf lore? More like 95% of the whole content of Silmarillion. Not even cherry-picking here.

[Anonymous No.15377802]

Even the constructed Elvish languages are just basically Finnish.

[Anonymous No.15377835]

>>15377787
Bro calm down, I was going to say that I believe the Finns gave it it's distinctive character but I know not to what degree, but I just ended up scrapping it to get back to the point. I actually thought about the Silmarillion in this too.

However I also think it is obvious that the Scandinavian mythology and English culture was far more important for the something like the story in Lord of the Rings, as important as the Finns are for the entire world and of course still, much of the story.

[Anonymous No.15377840]

Gandalf got his name from Snorri.

[Anonymous No.15377854]

>>15377835
Again downplaying the Finnish influence.

You could say that the Finnish myths, finnish culture and finnish language was over 70% of the Tolkien Mythos

The rest, 20-30% were English and Scandinavian culture.

This is objectively the only correct view to take.

[Anonymous No.15377862]

>>15377854
There would be no Lord of the Rings without English and Scandinavian Culture, the Silmarillion may be a good work, but he wouldn't be Tolkien without LOTR.

[Anonymous No.15377899]

>tfw the 'Tolkien stole everything from Finns' autist is back
>tfw no matter how much he shitposts he never gives off an impression of having actually read Tolkien

[Anonymous No.15377912]

>>15377899
Why is he so angry? Is he Finnish?

[Anonymous No.15377924]

>>15377899
This is also factually wrong. Most of you people read Tolkien for escapism, a small break from your metropolitan existence and obnoxious, grey cities filled with gas fumes and ugly, Trump towers and stuff like that.

For people like you, Tolkien is cheap entertainment. Like playing Skyrim, or some other secondary entertainment. To escape the city life

I was taking a walk today in a pine forest filled with mist in the Finnish nature (it was actual forest, not some nature park). I actually understood today that wow, this is actually what Tolkien meant by how the sunken Beleriand would have looked like, in real life.

Even Vikernes (who is an idiot) agrees that the homeland of the Elves, and especially Beleriand (that is basically a huge forest) were most likely inspired by Finland's geography, and the Blue Mountains being just another name for the Urals, that are in the east

[Anonymous No.15377926]

>>15377854
>You could say that the Finnish myths, finnish culture and finnish language was over 70% of the Tolkien Mythos
Lmao this is just straight up wewuzzing
Tolkien borrows from all parts of Northern Europe, whether it is the races from the Norse, the Ring from the Germans, or the language from the Finns. The Valar, for example, have rather Finnish names, but are more similar to the Norse Gods (Manwë being Óðinn King of the Gods sitting on his High throne, Yavanna being Iðunn tending to the trees, etc.) and are all created by Eru, which is drawn from the Christian God. Finnish myth is equally important to any other in Tolkien's works, but not bigger than every other myth.

[Anonymous No.15377940]

>>15377912
>Mr. Prosser’s mouth opened and closed a couple of times while his mind was for a moment filled with inexplicable but terribly attractive visions of Arthur Dent’s house being consumed with fire and Arthur himself running screaming from the blazing ruin with at least three hefty spears protruding from his back. Mr. Prosser was often bothered with visions like these and they made him feel very nervous.

[Anonymous No.15377946]

Reminder that Eru is literally the biblical God

[Anonymous No.15377959]

Even the Elvish decorations of the Gate of Moria (illustrated by Tolkien) in his books were stolen from the Finnish puukko craftsmen decoration. They are straight up copies from these traditional arrangements

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLnqr6IGVgs

Even small details like pic related are straight up stolen from the great Finnish nation

[Anonymous No.15377965]

>>15377940
I don't understand.

[Anonymous No.15377990]

>>15377547
did Wagner plagiarise the Nibelungenlied?

[Anonymous No.15377991]

>>15377959
Is your only claim to national greatness through an English mans book?

[Anonymous No.15378012]

>>15377990
No because the enormity of the Ring Cycle, and because Wagner didn't deny being influenced by the Nibelungenlided or Volsungs Saga. Though given, that would be a harder thing to do than for Tolkien's own fantasy world.

[Anonymous No.15378015]

>>15377991

Absolutely not. The Anglo has been like a cancer upon this world. He has spoilt everything in this world, from East (India, China) to West (North America etc.)

Tolkien corrupted the Finnish Kalevala to his own designs just as Melkor corrupted Elves to form the hideous race of Orcs.

What many people do not understand, that Melkor (who lacked originality, who could only pervert the designs of Eru Iluvatar [Another reference to Finnish Gods, considering the -Tar of Eru, tribute to Kalevala Goddess and Gods ) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmatar))

Melkor was a self-insert of Tolkien himself. Man who could not create something original, but rather debase and defile the Finnish myths to his own designs, his son inheriting the throne of Tolkien estate and assumed a new role as Sauron the Dark Lord (Christopher Tolkien) who continued in the line of Melkor.

Funnily enough, Christopher never even mentioned Finland publicly.

[Anonymous No.15378037]

>>15378015
Pottery.

[Anonymous No.15378042]

>>15378015
Why are you like this? This thread isn't even about Finland. Did you bait me into a conversation by saying "Didn't he steal from the Finns?" Could you yourself be productive on the thread? Why are you so hurt by an English man? He has made Finnish mythology more famous than it has ever been, and the only thing he has corrupted has been his own work; he has not actually changed Finnish myths.

[Anonymous No.15378091]

>>15377990
No, he plagiarized the inferior Volsunga Saga

[Anonymous No.15378558]

>>15377711
The Ring is just and adaptation of Nibelungenlied, which is itself an adaptation of the Volsung myth

[Anonymous No.15378575]

>>15378558
I believe Wagner drew most of his material from the norse saga of the Völsungs, rather than the german version.