>if god real then why bad thing happen I explain Thomas Aquinas >but children with bone cancer so sad omg I ask if the fact children get bone cancer make them cherish life more >they still don't understand Surely there is a better way to explain why the problem of evil is bs

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Anonymous Tue May 12 17:21:08 2020 No.15347322 [Reply] [Original]

>if god real then why bad thing happen
I explain Thomas Aquinas
>but children with bone cancer so sad omg
I ask if the fact children get bone cancer make them cherish life more
>they still don't understand

Surely there is a better way to explain why the problem of evil is bs

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 17:38:56 2020 No.15347538 >>15347322 >I ask if the fact children get bone cancer make them cherish life more What if they disagree with this statement?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 19:24:18 2020 No.15348525 >>15347538 How can someone disagree with a question what the fuck

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 19:51:17 2020 No.15348771 >>15348525 disagree that it makes them cherish life more

Anonymous Tue May 12 19:55:30 2020 No.15348815

>>15347322
Job:
God's will and ways are mysterious, we are not privy to them, and his knowledge of the context of the world is much larger than ours. What we perceive as evil may be nothing to him, or part of a greater process towards good.
Ecclesiastes:
Tolerate mystery, live a simple and happy life of service in God, and everything will work itself out.

It's not even really a problem, the bible answers it several times asking us to ponder the mysteries of god and the universe with humility and trust

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 19:58:38 2020 No.15348846 My question is why would it matter to God whether humans experience pain in life? Is there any passage in the bible that says pain is an evil?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:00:26 2020 No.15348862 >>15348846 kinda based

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:01:31 2020 No.15348876 >>15348525 >Does children getting bone cancer make them appreciate life more? >No What then?

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:09:31 2020 No.15348955

The "problem" of evil is no problem at all for theists. It is only problematic for the atheist to explain. Evil is simply a lack of good. For theists this is simple enough, but atheists cannot account for the existence of objective moral good. How can something be objectively wrong if nothing is necessarily objectively right? We understand intuitively that something is good if it is the way it ought to be or at least is not the way it ought not to be, but this implies an arbiter of moral law who has already disclosed to us how things ought to be (in the xase of Christianity, the Moral Law). For the atheist to complain that he does not believe in God because evil exists is a self

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:13:19 2020 No.15348977 File: 131 KB, 360x450, 171CA424-281E-4E80-B6F3-677A8AEE3401.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15348846 TAKE THE PAINPILL GRRRRRRRRRR HNNNNNNNNNNG AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEEEEAAAH!!

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:16:09 2020 No.15348994

>>15348862
My thought: There is no evil on the level of God. There is evil on a worldly level--those acts of human will that lead humans away from a superior existence. God is not hurt by men straying nor is he pleasured by men seeking a better life for themselves--he gave man the will to do as man pleases, and he told man what to do to ascend. When God tells man not to eat of the fruit, he does not tell man so because it is disfavorable to God--God is only informing man of the consequence of such an action.

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:19:10 2020 No.15349017

>>15348955
(Cont.)
... self refuting argument. If God does not exist, then evil does not exist, and the atheist has no ground from which to launch his complaint against God. Conversely, if the atheist admits that evil exists, then he is also conceding that good exists. If good exists, it must derive it's essence from that which is supremely good, which we call "God".

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:19:42 2020 No.15349022 >>15348955 >Evil is simply a lack of good Neutral isn't evil.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:20:58 2020 No.15349040 >>15349022 no good = neutral to you?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:24:32 2020 No.15349066 >>15349017 When atheists bring up the problem of evil, they are arguing that the Christian's (or other's) beliefs are inconsistent. They are saying "IF good and evil exist, then..."

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:25:31 2020 No.15349072

>>15347322
I fucking loathe disingenuous gumpop faggot "Christian" cunts like you. Yeah children get cancer to cherish their life more, what a fucking maroon

>>15348955
Then the problem of evil just becomes the problem of an absent good. Literal word games pushed by weasels. Fuck you

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:25:41 2020 No.15349074 >>15349040 Yes. Would you call the nonexistence of Santa Claus an evil?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:28:16 2020 No.15349093 >>15349074 >the rape and murder of children is just like santa claus not existing bro mental illness

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:38:36 2020 No.15349170 >>15349093 What? I'm saying a lack of good is not inherently evil.

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:40:55 2020 No.15349194

>According to the Bible, the experience of evil is something God understands and acknowledges. God’s willingness to grant us the freedom of making our own choices also allows for the possibility of moral evil. Moral evil leads to physical evil. Even so, God has always acted to soften the blows that evil and suffering land on humanity. He also provided the one and only means to make all wrongs right. One day, God’s plan to defeat and destroy evil will be fully complete.

>Taken as a whole, as it is intended, the Bible describes evil as something God allowed, but never condoned, for the sake of our free will. All through history, God has taken steps to limit the influence of evil. And, most importantly, God Himself took the consequences of our sin, so every person can have access to forgiveness and salvation. As a result, all sin, evil, and suffering will someday be completely ended. Beyond the philosophical or theological aspects of this issue, Scripture in and of itself goes a long way to neutralizing the power of the “problem of evil.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/problem-of-evil.html

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:41:05 2020 No.15349195

>>15348955
What? how's that a problem for an atheist to explain, humans made the definition of good and evil, evil exist because certain humans have different brain patterns either from birth or upbringing that make them commit it for pleasure and sometimes out of necessity

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:43:49 2020 No.15349212

>God has let us know a lot. He has lifted the curtain on the problem of evil with Christ. There, the greatest evil that ever happened, both the greatest spiritual evil and the greatest physical evil, both the greatest sin (deicide) and the greatest suffering (perfect love hated and crucified), is revealed as his wise and loving plan to bring about the greatest good, the salvation of the world from sin and suffering eternally. There, the greatest injustice of all time is integrated into the plan of salvation that Saint Paul calls "the righteousness (justice) of God". Love finds a way. Love is very tricky. But love needs to be trusted.

>The worst aspect of the problem of evil is eternal evil, hell. Does hell not contradict a loving and omnipotent God? No, for hell is the consequence of free will. We freely choose hell for ourselves; God does not cast anyone into hell against his will. If a creature is really free to say yes or no to the Creator's offer of love and spiritual marriage, then it must be possible for the creature to say no. And that is what hell is, essentially. Free will, in turn, was created out of God's love. Therefore hell is a result of God's love. Everything is.

>No sane person wants hell to exist. No sane person wants evil to exist. But hell is just evil eternalized. If there is evil and if there is eternity, there can be hell. If it is intellectually dishonest to disbelieve in evil just because it is shocking and uncomfortable, it is the same with hell. Reality has hard corners, surprises, and terrible dangers in it. We desperately need a true road map, not nice feelings, if we are to get home. It is true, as people often say, that "hell just feels unreal, impossible." Yes. So does Auschwitz. So does Calvary.

https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:47:05 2020 No.15349234

>>15349194
Miserable cope pushed by faggots with full bellies and bank accounts.

Angels are free and know God in his fill glory, and yet they don't suffer the dangers of free will. What is this entire structure of participation that humans implicates but angels don't? Are not the beings closest to God in the full flower of their essence, free as anything can be? Fuck off.

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:50:50 2020 No.15349252

>>15349212
Do non-Christians who haven't been taught Christianity yet live an otherwise good life go to Heaven or Hell?
If Hell, doesn't this contradict your post?
If Heaven, what is the purpose of prayer, church services, spreading the word, etc. if you don't even need to be a Christian?

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:51:04 2020 No.15349258
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>>15347322
Ultimately we can't explain away the problem of evil, we can only mystically know that in the end things shall be well. Know Christ, commune with Him and His children, familiarise yourself with Him as He is in the Scriptures, and you will understand that evil is finite--it eventually runs out. The theology can go a long way, but ultimately you must plunge yourself into the mystery of divine love, for by no other means will you come to understand the essential goodness of things.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:51:14 2020 No.15349260 The Problem of Evil - William Lane Craig https://www.bethinking.org/suffering/the-problem-of-evil

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:52:56 2020 No.15349271 >>15349258 >bro just sit on your hands and wait for daddy to clean up the cosmic mess are "Christians" even human

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:53:54 2020 No.15349274 >>15349271 Not really. They're life-deniers.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:55:56 2020 No.15349285 >>15349212 I dont understand, does that mean hell is a state of being of not loving god and not a place?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:56:07 2020 No.15349287 >>15349271 nowhere did i say that

Anonymous Tue May 12 20:58:13 2020 No.15349305

>>15349287
That is exactly what you said: hope that the architect of space and time will compensate all the suffering that has been experienced since the beginning of time. People who lose children would rather have their children back than eternal bliss in Heaven, and if you think that bliss can and should be purchased with the suffering of helpless animals and children you're a fucking psychopath

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 20:58:25 2020 No.15349306 >>15349285 That's actually a question highly discussed yet

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:00:00 2020 No.15349315
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>>15347322
>Surely there is a better way to explain why the problem of evil is bs

Look, there's no entirely satisfying way to make the case that the "problem of evil" does not ultimately defeat the reality, ex hypothesi, of the goodness of God.

With that said, an "explanation" along these lines:
>I ask if the fact children get bone cancer make them cherish life more

Yikes, anon, is there anybody who would find that persuasive?

Here is a good, clear, concise presentation on the subject -- it's a better way to address the problem of evil; there may be (and likely are) even better ways yet; but I'm not sure there's an entirely *satisfying* explanation of the problem this side of paradise.

https://aquinas101.thomisticinstitute.org/the-problem-of-evil

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:00:47 2020 No.15349322

>>15349305
Nowhere did i say that 'eternal bliss' is the compensation for an earthly life of shit

My only point was that theological and philosophical arguments ultimately cannot answer the problem of evil, only an encounter with the living God can do that

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:03:54 2020 No.15349336

>>15349322
For some Christians, it is. Heaven becomes a spa vacation after the misery and toil of earthly life, earthly life being nothing but the condition for heavenly life to be known/experienced as heavenly life, of course. It is fucking madness, totally infantile spirituality.

I don't have a problem with the rest of your post. The True, Living God does not have to "answer for" the problem of evil, because it is not his problem, he is not the creator of this hell-pit.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:04:33 2020 No.15349340 >>15349336 >he is not the creator of this hell-pit >being unironically a gnostic

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:05:36 2020 No.15349347 >>15349340 >nooo daddy iranaeus tell me what to think Grow some balls you embarrassing faggot

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:07:54 2020 No.15349362 >>15349336 >he is not the creator of this hell-pit So a force as strong as he, created this place and he can't destroy it, where did I see this concept before

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:08:19 2020 No.15349365

>>15349347
It is actually Augustine who I follow for my gnostic refutations
>And therefore, O Lord, are Your judgments to be dreaded, since Your truth is neither mine, nor his, nor another's, but of all of us, whom Thou publicly callest to have it in common, warning us terribly not to hold it as specially for ourselves, lest we be deprived of it. For whosoever claims to himself as his own that which Thou appointed to all to enjoy, and desires that to be his own which belongs to all, is forced away from what is common to all to that which is his own — that is, from truth to falsehood. For he that speaks a lie, speaks of his own. (John 8:44)

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:11:25 2020 No.15349381 >>15349365 Is that supposed to be an argument?

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:11:50 2020 No.15349387

>>15349365
Lmao Augustine was a retarded cuck who couldn't even go to toe-to-toe with the Manichaeans without sounding like a creationist, you'll notice pseuds like him have nothing to say to hard-line dualists without falling back on reddit-isms about the beauty, glory, harmony, etc. of creation (conveniently behind city walls). Don't post that pseud around here.

>>15349362
God only has to be Good, not omnipotent. I'll sacrifice his omnipotence to preserve his goodness, happily.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:14:37 2020 No.15349398 >>15349387 >>15349365 >>15349315 >>15349260 Someone answer this >>15349252

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:21:58 2020 No.15349438 >>15349285 current pope said it doesnt

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:23:50 2020 No.15349451

>>15349252
>Do non-Christians who haven't been taught Christianity yet live an otherwise good life go to Heaven or Hell?

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&version=ESV

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:27:21 2020 No.15349473 >>15349387 >reddit-isms what does this even mean

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:27:42 2020 No.15349475 >>15349451 I take this to mean they go to Hell. This means hell is not the consequence of free will since the majority of people have grown up outside of Christianity and were unable to make the choice of becoming Christian.

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:30:11 2020 No.15349491

>>15349252
>Do non-Christians who haven't been taught Christianity yet live an otherwise good life go to Heaven or Hell?
They can, if they follow the law written on their hearts and are spiritually united with Christ, the Good, without knowing His name.
>If Hell, doesn't this contradict your post?
No, because every person knowingly does evil when they choose evil. Our consciences witness against us always.
>If Heaven, what is the purpose of prayer, church services, spreading the word, etc. if you don't even need to be a Christian?
Would you rather have guidance, a supportive community, and direct access to God's help in the most important journey of your life, or try and manage it all on your own?

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:33:13 2020 No.15349508

>>15349475
>free will
If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:33:41 2020 No.15349510

>>15349473
Saccharine platitudes pushed by an estrogenized, spiritual underclass unwilling to look the truth in the face, people who believe fleeting pleasures and the satisfaction of a hard day's work justify a cosmic prison built on the bodies of its children.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:35:47 2020 No.15349520 >>15349491 >No, because every person knowingly does evil when they choose evil. Is the worship of false gods not an evil?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:35:59 2020 No.15349522 >>15349508 And is obviously fair that someone shall be punished for eternity by a temporary mistake in a temporary live, sounds about right

Anonymous Tue May 12 21:36:07 2020 No.15349526

>>15349508
There is no reason that the problem of predation in nature - the reality of hunger that afflicts every living thing on this planet - should be implicates by man's failure. What a ridiculous, oafish God you believe in, one who punished the voiceless and blameless for the moral failure of his favorite child. You are a fool.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:39:48 2020 No.15349548 >>15349522 >>15349526 You will go to Hell. Don't (You) me.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:41:32 2020 No.15349555 >>15349548 Nauseous brainlet

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:31:35 2020 No.15349842 >>15349093 You missed the point, but we still love you

Anonymous Tue May 12 22:45:47 2020 No.15349923

>>15347322
Good and evil aren't really separate things. It's more of a spectrum. You can't have one without the other. And ironically, the more of one there is, the more there is of the other. The more evil there is, the more good you can do.

Also, good and evil are necessary for free will. If there were somehow only good, we wouldn't have choice but free will comes from having options

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:51:26 2020 No.15349953 >>15349923 >it's easier to imagine God needs evil to produce good than it is to imagine an essentially good being that is also free What a crock

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:20:29 2020 No.15350086 >>15349387 St. Augustine BTFO Manichaeans on Confessions.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:25:23 2020 No.15350117 >>15350086 You mean privatio boni? Don't make me laugh. The rest is toothless.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:27:03 2020 No.15350124 >>15347322 Just remind them that suffering is divine, and that in heaven there will be eternal bliss against which all other sorrows are insignificant

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:31:24 2020 No.15350147 >>15350124 >it's okay to rape people so long as you give them heroin after kill yourself brainlet

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:31:47 2020 No.15350150 >>15350117 Yes. Also the Monad stupidity.

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:32:23 2020 No.15350152

>>15349252
>If Heaven, what is the purpose of prayer, church services, spreading the word, etc. if you don't even need to be a Christian?
Because otherwise you're just blindly fumbling around hoping you get it right?
It's like asking what the point of asking for directions is if you have some possibility of getting there without them. It helps tremendously.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:33:48 2020 No.15350160 >>15350150 What monad? What are you talking about?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:34:31 2020 No.15350165 >>15350147 >not interfering with free will is literally rape >eternal life is like heroin /r/atheism is that way

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:35:17 2020 No.15350170 >>15350165 lol, Adam's moral failure interferes with the totality of fucking nature in space AND time, don't give me that bullshit

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:44:12 2020 No.15350220 >>15350160 He criticizes those who believe that everyone is a part of God, submitting God to humanity and not humanity to God.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:46:28 2020 No.15350237 >>15350220 No, God is not reduced to humanity in Manichaean doctrine, light particles are imprisoned in all bodies, leave it to Augustine to betray his anthropocentrism in the same breath he denounces Mani's. Fucking autist

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:56:03 2020 No.15350272

>>15348955
You do not have to believe in the concept of evil to use the problem of evil argument against theists. Theists presumably believe in evil themselves, believe that suffering is a form of evil, etc. so the argument points out an inherent contradiction within the theists worldview.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:07:22 2020 No.15350333 >>15347322 >I ask if the fact children get bone cancer make them cherish life more No, it does not

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:10:29 2020 No.15350345

>>15349953
yes that is a tricky one but what I'm saying is that good and evil can't be separated. Things exist by their contraries. Up and down, left and right, good and evil.

In a way, evil is good because without it there is no good. And then good is also evil because it can't exist without it but I do get what you're saying. It is a thinker

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:13:06 2020 No.15350362

>>15350345
>In a way, evil is good because without it there is no good.

demiurgic bullshit. heaven, a realm of light, didn't need hell to exist by contrast. it seems God conveniently doesn't have to abide by this logic until he's made to account for actual reality.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:14:19 2020 No.15350369 >>15350362 Gnostics are just corrupted Neoplatonics.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:14:53 2020 No.15350374 >>15350369 and neoplatonists are sentimental gnostics. you said nothing.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:17:54 2020 No.15350386 >>15350362 I’m not talking about christianity or heaven or hell. Im just saying that this is the way it seems to be

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:19:51 2020 No.15350393 >>15350386 you are absolutely correct about good and evil mutually implicating each other, but the final good must be unconditioned or it is meaningless. Christians worship a conditional good and call it God.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:19:52 2020 No.15350395 File: 215 KB, 2412x1995, Gnostic Cosmology.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15350374 I said a lot. You follow a religion which is just a corruption of a more correct philophy. I bet you believe in inferior sethian cosmology to top it off.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:25:13 2020 No.15350424 >>15350237 Stating that evil is present in God's substance, thus making him corruptible, already brings God to the same level as humanity. It's an excuse to take away humanity's guilt and put it in God.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:25:31 2020 No.15350426 >>15350393 Yes, that makes sense. I think that maybe the problem is that Christians anthropomorphize God. Probably, “God” is just a set of rules that make things the way they are. I dont know if im just rambling now haha

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:28:54 2020 No.15350444

>>15350395
>history decides the truth of a doctrine

imagine being such a simping brainlet and then having the gall to talk about "correct philosophies"

>>15350424
complete misunderstanding of Manichaean doctrine. Manichaeism is radically dualist, there is no corruptible substance in God by definition.

>>15350426
Sorry for giving you a hard time there's just a stock set of attitudes that trigger a Pavlovian rage in me. but you are correct. Christians anthropomorphize the structure of reality, which they shouldn't because that structure is literally fed by death.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:31:31 2020 No.15350465 >>15350444 >history decides the truth of a doctrine I never said that. Sethianism is just for edgelords, whereas Valentinian is closer to traditional metaphysical doctrines.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:34:40 2020 No.15350487 >>15350465 No, Valentinus compromised with the Church (darkness is the product of the inherent corruptibility of the Light, hypostasized by Sophia), while Manichaeism goes full-bore with its dualism.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:24:31 2020 No.15350768 thomas aquinas was a decent logician but if you think any of his proofs "prove" god, you're really dumb. anybody's welcome to offer examples btw, i'm not closed-minded as far as i know.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:26:25 2020 No.15350790 >>15348876 op irreparably btfo

Anonymous Wed May 13 01:50:13 2020 No.15350922
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>>15350768
If you only believe something can be proved by empirical means then it is impossible for god to be proven too you. But the statement "Things can only be proven by empirical means" is self defeating. So rational argumentation can lead us too truth independent of empirical evidence, which is precisely what the five ways do (at least the first 3).

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:54:03 2020 No.15350943 >>15348846 Based and is/oughtpilled

Anonymous Wed May 13 02:13:14 2020 No.15351000

>>15350922
wait the "infinitely long chain of events can't happen, therefore god" thing was an aquinas argument? i've always thought that was a /lit/ meme. It's a great argument for its time, but an infinitely long chain of events hasn't been disproven and isn't a logical conclusion from the info we have now. inb4 argument from incredulity.

the third argument is actually very very good thinking, if i understand it correctly.

Anonymous Wed May 13 02:42:16 2020 No.15351111
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>>15351000
Well the argument stems more from Aristotle, but Aquinas refined it and used it as the "first way". As for the "infinitely long chain of events" argument, you seem to misunderstand what is meant by this statement. The infinitely long chain of events being discussed is not just a infinite regress, but an infinite hierarchical regress, which is to say a regress that is happening here, now, and at all times. It is not like an infinite life of dominoes falling, but more like an infinity long wire, but that inst plugged into anything, or an infinitely long paint brush with no painter. It ties into the argument from contingency, it doesn't matter how far back you go in time, if all things are fundamentally contingent, than nothing can exist at all, that is why there must be an contingency ground of contingency (or in the case of the first way, and un-actualized actualizer), and this we call God.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:43:51 2020 No.15351118 >>15351000 then the problem of what caused the chain becomes the problem of how there is an infinite chain in the first place. what this guy said >>15351111

Anonymous Wed May 13 02:48:02 2020 No.15351131

>>15347322
I don't understand why you try to reason with people who are clearly unfit for thinking. I'm not Christian, but I find it amusing that some people can't even slightly understand Christianity.
>>15348815
>god's will and ways are mysterious
That should be enough. People who can't understand such a simple statement are hopeless.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:50:11 2020 No.15351137 >>15351131 no, it isn't enough, and never will be you fucking snake

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:54:24 2020 No.15351152 >>15351111 infinite line of dominoes then *un-contingent ground of contingency fugg im tired

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:57:07 2020 No.15351161 >>15350790 you say it ironically but he literally can't respond at that point as evidenced by the thread

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:58:08 2020 No.15351165 >>15351131 >dude just trust me yeah why would anyone have a problem with that lol

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:06:52 2020 No.15351202

>>15351111
i believe that comparing time to a paint brush without a painter is a completely unnecessary and simplistic analogy. the reasoning between all things are fundamentally contingent and nothing can exist at all is probably wrong, although i wouldn't know because you didn't give one.

>>15351118
the infinite chain comes from the infinite chain, hence infinite.

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:08:55 2020 No.15351213

>>15351202
>the infinite chain comes from the infinite chain, hence infinite.

no, since every link of the chain is contingent - grounded by the one before it, grounding the one after it - no single link can account for the entire existence of the chain, and all the links in their totality ground each other, never the chain in and of itself

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:10:21 2020 No.15351219

>>15351202
Why does everyone insist that there must be a beginning? Science can not explain all and we have a pretty good idea at what happened very close to the big bang, but it has not said or have an opinion at what happened before that. For all we know time might stretch in an infinite amount before that. To say that there must be a prime mover is merely putting your god into that gap

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:11:58 2020 No.15351228

>>15351137
>>15351165
>>15348815

>Tolerate mystery, live a simple and happy life of service in God, and everything will work itself out.
>God's will and ways are mysterious, we are not privy to them, and his knowledge of the context of the world is much larger than ours.
>it isn't enough, and never will be
To consider those statements false is insane idolatry; you're literally demanding that divine knowledge be made known to your created and limited human understanding at all times.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:13:01 2020 No.15351235 >>15351219 >Why does everyone insist that there must be a beginning? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:14:46 2020 No.15351242 >>15351235 You are referencing a book that you take to be the truth when there is no evidence for this. The only way to come to this conclusion is to take it on faith and if you go down this road all religions might be considered true

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:14:49 2020 No.15351243

>>15351213
>no single link can account for the existence of the entire chain
no duh. this chain may be more accurately referred to as a cycle, but you don't have a point about it anyway except to parrot aquinas' argument.

This argument works only on the principle that infinite regress is, as an axiom for the argument itself, dismissed. it's circular, ironically.

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:21:35 2020 No.15351272
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>>15351202
The point of the analogy is not at all to compare time with a paint brush, it is to compare the infinite chain of actuality (or contingency) to an infinitely long paint brush. As I said it has nothing to do with time, as the regress is hierarchical, it is happening here and now. If all things that come into being are contingent, it doesn't matter how far back the chain of contingency goes in time, if there is no un-contingent ground of contingency, then by definition nothing can exist, as all things would be reliant or contingent on something that doesn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:32:27 2020 No.15351310 >>15349022 This isn't D&D retard.

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:42:34 2020 No.15351335

>>15351272
I see. Your mistake, if I understand your argument correctly, is that there must be something uncontingent for contingent things to be based on. Calling it hierarchical instead of temporal is pure fluff.

>as all things would be contingent on something that doesn't exist

this is why the argument runs so long. Let me put it like this. Everything is reliant on something that came before it, but to presuppose that this chain must end is a logical mistake based on a regressive (ha) standard of time.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:52:04 2020 No.15351360 >>15351310 >This isn't D&D retard. >it’s actually even more simplistic and braindead

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:53:22 2020 No.15351364 >>15351228 >no dude like really just trust me what if you’re not a cuck though

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:54:56 2020 No.15351372

>>15347322
If God is the greatest conceivable being then he must necessarily be the greatest conceivable being in all conceivable worlds. Conceivable worlds must necessarily exist because God exists. We can conceive of worlds that are pure good and worlds that are pure evil and everything in between. God is present in every one of them and provides creation and guidance. Living is objectively more good than not living, even if the circumstances are bad.
As we can conceive of both a worse world than our own and a better world than our own it follows, that we inhabit a world with both good and evil.

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:55:28 2020 No.15351375

>>15347322
>yeah dude getting cancer is actually not bad at all because your evident death might cause you to have a realisation
>the malicious tumor killing you from the inside and the drugs which will cause you horrible side effects while your family and friends are forced to watch you painfully wither away until you die in a hospital bed is totally worth it
Get off your high fucking horse

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:56:07 2020 No.15351380 ITT: christcucks grasping for straws And of course, you people still didn’t explain how a god that is both able and willing to stop evil refuses to do so. Sad!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:56:59 2020 No.15351384 >>15351161 no I actually wasn't kidding, this is all it takes to dismantle op's argument

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:03:23 2020 No.15351403

>>15351372
Your argument is based on the assumption that god exists in the first place. Yet there is not a shred of evidence for it nor any experiment that can be devised to test it, it becomes merely speculation on your part

As an example the experiment to test for gravitational waves."These can detect a change in the 4 km mirror spacing of less than a ten-thousandth the charge diameter of a proton". It is hard for a human mind to fathom just how precise this measurement is. Yet with all this precision we still haven't fount any evidence of any god

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:08:12 2020 No.15351420 >>15351380 Technically, the evil example in the op, cancer, is very rapidly eliminated one way or another and afterwards the universe is less likely to have it again

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:08:41 2020 No.15351422 >>15351364 How exactly are you not a cuck? Under your own logic, you cuck to the material forces which will bring about your inevitable demise.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:10:19 2020 No.15351426 >>15351242 >when there is no evidence for this The word of the incarnate God is all the evidence I need. No other religion is instituted directly by God himself who came down to us and became human, so that we may learn directly from him.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:11:20 2020 No.15351428 >>15351380 >stop evil >presupposes that evil exists OH NO NO NO

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:12:23 2020 No.15351432 File: 119 KB, 640x640, 1581919794499.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15351403 >nor any experiment that can be devised to test it

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:12:24 2020 No.15351433 >>15351426 And yet all religions claim exactly what you do on faith alone. There is then no distinction between your "truth" and the "truth" of any other religion

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:17:02 2020 No.15351450 >>15351433 >claim exactly what you do >islam claims that God became flesh >There is then no distinction between your "truth" and the "truth" There is no distinction between "different" "truths" because the only truth is Christ.

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:17:37 2020 No.15351454

Honestly the idea of infinate regress only streathens the idea of god because it slowly becomes a nigh certainty that at some point in the chain something intentionally created the rest of the chain that comes after it or a 'sub chain' that it can watch over

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:19:07 2020 No.15351464

>>15351433
>claim exactly what you do
Almost no religion claims that salvation is only achievable through a specific historical human person who is also the creator of the universe and fully divine. All of them tend to have some kind of mechanism where outsiders can still be saved/in good standing with God even if they don't follow the religion.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:21:04 2020 No.15351470 >>15351428 In that case, the terms good and evil are completely meaningless, which defeats the purpose of Christianity all together

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:22:00 2020 No.15351475

>>15351450
There is no way for you to know that. It is only the "truth" because you believe it be so. Take the example of someone from India who practices Hinduism. For that person that is the "truth" only because he believes it to be so. For any one of any other religion it is mere conjecture or false

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:22:11 2020 No.15351476

>>15351403
My argument is a facetious ploy to use believers' arguments against them. Who can refute the god of the multiple worlds? Then it becomes the worlds of many, the multiplicity of Christ and the fact that we've been dealt a shitty hand because that's just how an utterly alien existence that is omniscient and omnipotent and omnibenevolent works. His ways are mysterious precisely because he isn't human.

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:23:41 2020 No.15351484
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@15351475
>There is no way for you to know that. It is only the "truth" because you believe it be so. Take the example of someone from India who practices Hinduism. For that person that is the "truth" only because he believes it to be so. For any one of any other religion it is mere conjecture or false
>truth is subjective

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:25:27 2020 No.15351494 >>15350170 Yes, we live in a causal universe, congratulations on noticing this fact.

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:26:56 2020 No.15351498

>>15351464
This idea that a single human sacrifice is going to bring salvation is nonsensical.

For this metaphor i will be god: I am angry at mankind for they do not act as I see fit. What if I send a part of myself down to earth in human form for them to crucify, which is a part of me. Only by them crucifying this part of me can they find salvation for the anger which I hold towards them. Why not just forgive, like humans do on a daily basis?

This is complete nonsense. This is how a child reasons

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:27:26 2020 No.15351500

>>15351475
>There is no way for you to know that.
Christ demonstrated his divinity and truth directly for everyone to see and gave us apostolic succession. You can just believe that literally all of the people who saw him performing miracles and rising from the dead lied though, that's more ""rational"".

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:28:32 2020 No.15351506

>>15351498
>This idea that a single human sacrifice is going to bring salvation is nonsensical.
According to your bugmanistic subjective interpretation of what salvation is and just how great the sacrifice of Christ is. Why should I care what a deluded created being thinks when God tells me otherwise?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:29:26 2020 No.15351511 >>15348846 This is a really good point, never thought about it that way

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:31:44 2020 No.15351517

>>15351498
>a part of myself
>which is a part of me
God doesn't have parts.
>Why not just forgive
because Christ foretold of His sacrifice in prophecy and keeps His word.
because the sacrifice is not mean to merely forgive, Christ sanctified death by His sacrifice and prepared the way for our resurrection.

>>15348846
>Is there any passage in the bible that says pain is an evil?
Nope. Christ went through such pain while being the ideal human and people here think they somehow deserve better...

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:36:35 2020 No.15351537 >>15351517 I do not understand your point of sanctifying death. Why do you need to? There are millions upon millions of people who died before this point of "sanctification". What happens to them? Do they just up and miss salvation

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:50:07 2020 No.15351593
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>>15351537
>Why do you need to?
He destroyed death/hades itself to free us humans from its grasp and the consequences of Adam's sin, he paved the way as the first one who rose in the way we all will rise before the final judgement.
>millions upon millions of people who died before this point of "sanctification". What happens to them?
Christ descended into Hades upon his death and preached the Gospel there, see pic related where Christ fixes what Adam broke by taking him out of Hades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:51:07 2020 No.15351596 >>15351593 So there is no hell? Is that what you are saying

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:53:30 2020 No.15351600 >>15351596 There is eternal damnation (Hell/Gehenna), but it's not the same place (Hades/Sheol) where Christ went after death to meet all of those who died before His incarnation and death.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:59:35 2020 No.15351619 >>15351600 Again this is conjecture. All of it is based on whether your god exists or not. Salvation stories have been throughout mythology and most cultures have created them to fend off the fear of death. There is nothing to show that this is true

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:02:03 2020 No.15351631 >>15351619 >All of it is based on whether your god exists or not. Why would he not exist? >There is nothing to show that this is true Prove it.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:06:06 2020 No.15351646

>>15351619
>most cultures have created them
all cultures derive from a single group of people born of Adam and all people are created in Christ's image, so naturally they would have known about this revelation and perverted it over time as they fell into idolatry more and more. some groups outright deny any kind of "salvation" as necessary so it doesn't make any sense to discount the truth just because it is widespread. you're literally just projecting the reason why people have these types of stories because of your rationalistic scientistic bias.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:07:57 2020 No.15351654

>>15351631
Do you know Russel's teapot? It was a simple story he told but it proves the point well.

Say there is a teapot in orbit around the sun, between the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn. Now being so small as such a distance it would not be able to detect it with any telescope or piece of technology we have. Now say someone comes up to you and tells you of this teapot and insists that it must exist even though you will never be able to detect it

Who is the onus of proof on? The guy who insists this teapot must exist or you who is not buying his bullshit? The answer is clear, it is on this guy who believes in this undetectable teapot

You believe in this undetectable, untestable god. The onus of proof is on you who believes in this entity, not me

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:12:50 2020 No.15351671 >>15348815 >>15351228 This argument relies on the very kind of knowledge it condemns. You are claiming yourself privy to God's will.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:13:59 2020 No.15351673 >>15348846 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:15:35 2020 No.15351679 >>15348955 This is just renaming the problem of evil to the problem of a lack of good.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:20:12 2020 No.15351697

>>15351654
>Do you know Russel's teapot?
I don't care about the words of this insane bugman, sorry. He was clearly mentally unstable and self-refuting in his ultra-rationalistic skepticism.
>onus of proof
What would you personally even accept as an undeniable proof for Christ? If He came to you right now and performed any miracle you asked, you'd just claim that your senses aren't reliable and that we can have no knowledge. Why would you think He hasn't already given you everything you need to believe in Him?
>undetectable, untestable god
>visibly walked around for the human eye to see, performed miracles in plain sight to prove his divinity
How is that undetectable or untestable? You could also test it yourself by trying to pray to Him.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:22:13 2020 No.15351708

>>15351654
> detect it with any telescope or piece of technology we have
God isn't material lmao
you need zero technology to see that this world has objective non-physical truth and is patterned in an ordered non-random way, this already takes you most of the way there.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:22:44 2020 No.15351712 >>15347538 Its the same with the "if god, why evil?" Problem. If you reject the second premise then theres no reason God cant exist.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:23:33 2020 No.15351717 >>15349365 This is Buddhism, i.e. bad Phenomenology in ascribing the Phenomenal's tyranny to the Divine simply because it is there. Terminally primitive.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:24:01 2020 No.15351721 >>15351673 No.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:24:25 2020 No.15351723

>>15351671
>relies on the very kind of knowledge it condemns
God's knowledge is not known by us in its fullness, but only by what he himself reveals to us. That post only condemns the idea that people can know God's mind on every single issue at all times.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:25:45 2020 No.15351729 >>15349381 It was written in 600 in latin and translated many times. Just because its hard for you to understand doesnt invalidate it.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:27:45 2020 No.15351739

>>15349508
>However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge

This is absurd. Freedom of will and freedom of action are independent. Simply because I cannot fly has no bearing on my willing to fly. Free will exclusively pertains to the latter.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:28:14 2020 No.15351741 Take the easy path, my fellows. Praise the name of the Buddha of infinite light, whose eternal vow saves us poor sinners. 南無阿弥陀仏

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:28:48 2020 No.15351745

>>15349398
All humans are damned to go to hell yes, because they are sinful and do not deserve salvation by their own power. Those that repent may go to heaven, or so they say. But to be born and not know God does not exempt one from sin, its why there are so many unbaptized babies in dantes inferno.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:28:52 2020 No.15351746 >>15351741 >Buddha converted to Christianity when he had the Gospel preached to him in hell.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:29:05 2020 No.15351747 >>15351717 Im buddhist Pls explain

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:30:28 2020 No.15351756 >>15349475 >majority of people Majority of the world is of Abrahamic faith. 2% or less identify as athiest, and of those that are athiest, what amount of them have not heard of organized religion?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:30:35 2020 No.15351757 >>15349923 >The more evil there is, the more good you can do. What does this mean?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:33:01 2020 No.15351766 >>15351757 Cant have one without the other

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:34:36 2020 No.15351772 >>15351746 No, the Amida Buddha lives in this world in his Word. It is more likely Jesus preached the Buddha-dharma and is in a state of samadhi until the advent of Maitreya Buddha. Please read the Lotus Sutra. Hail Lotus Sutra. 南無阿弥陀仏.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:34:51 2020 No.15351774 >>15351723 How would such a person know what it is that he reveals?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:36:35 2020 No.15351781 >>15351772 Buddy you realize nobody is gunna understand the words youre decorating your post with right?

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:36:39 2020 No.15351785

>>15351697
If he came to me and did do a miracle right in front of me then it would make me a believer. You have to keep in mind most people that are atheists were raised in one organised religion or another. I was raised as a Christian till I found no reason to believe in it anymore. As well as prayed when I did believe.

The problem is that it never worked. The rate for it succeeding is the same as chance. Do not underestimate atheists tin that they did not try religion at one stage or another. Many were true believers, even preachers

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:38:01 2020 No.15351792 >>15351774 You dont, thats the point. God too big and man too dumb.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:38:11 2020 No.15351795 >>15351766 How so? A child cannot enjoy cartoons unless his father crushes his trachea with his heel?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:38:15 2020 No.15351797 >>15351708 Do not make the mistake of hiding behind metaphysics to rationalise your belief. That sword cuts both ways

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:39:00 2020 No.15351801 >>15351781 It's the nembutsu, it's not for you to understand but rather it is to rely upon and praise the eternal vow of the Amida Buddha to save us. If you wish to repeat the nembutsu with sincere faith, feel free to copy and paste it. 南無阿弥陀仏

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:39:13 2020 No.15351802 >>15351785 Youve got a fundemental missunderstanding of a higher power in general then. God isnt a genie in a magic lamp

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:40:14 2020 No.15351806 >>15351792 This is a most Gnostic statement. Claiming yourself utterly fallible requires nothing short of a Divine vantage point.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:41:27 2020 No.15351809 >>15351802 You might have a misunderstanding of rationality and reasoning. Higher power is hiding in metaphysics to rationalise what you cannot know or prove

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:41:33 2020 No.15351810 >>15351795 What? Do you honestly not understand how good and bad work? If you got rid of one the other does not exist to compare it to.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:42:35 2020 No.15351818 >>15351801 ねんぶつ

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:43:52 2020 No.15351822 >>15351809 >if I cant fathom it, it does not exist An ant cant fathom you, do you not exist?

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:44:33 2020 No.15351826

>>15351802
You might have a misunderstanding of general reasoning. Higher power is hiding in metaphysics to rationalise what you cannot know or prove

He might not be a genie in a magical lamp. But a lot of the claims are the same. He answers to your prayers (rubbing the lamp), fulfills your wishes (prayers). Quite an apt analogy to think of it, with all the limitations of the genie as well

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:45:07 2020 No.15351828 >>15351810 I have not heard any explanation, nor have I experience any Relativism thereof at all.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:45:08 2020 No.15351829 >>15351818 Yeah I was wondering abut that too, seems hes repeating a japanese version of buddism? Which is kinda odd since theyre the least invested culturally, compared to say, thailand or mainland china

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:46:10 2020 No.15351833 >>15349093 This is why Christians are retarded

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:46:34 2020 No.15351837 >>15351818 The ん takes an M sound because it's immediately followed by the ぶ sound.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:49:47 2020 No.15351849 >>15351826 God doesnt grant wishes. If youre unsatisfied with your prayers being "answered incorrectly" then maybe you need to look inward and try to figure out why you think youre entitled to anything but a lonely death.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:50:30 2020 No.15351853 >>15351785 >You have to keep in mind most people that are atheists were raised in one organised religion or another. yeah, american-tier protestantism in some form or another. really makes you think...

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:50:47 2020 No.15351855 >>15351849 What is the point of prayer if it is ineffective?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:51:14 2020 No.15351856 Here's a good resource https://www.acampbell.org.uk/essays/skeptic/parasite.html

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:51:17 2020 No.15351857 >>15351849 So why then pray in the first place? Seems like a tremendous waste of time to me

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:51:33 2020 No.15351858 >>15351826 >all the limitations of the genie Cringe fedora-tier blasphemy.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:51:55 2020 No.15351861 >>15351853 That's incorrect. Most Atheists in the US are excatholic. If all excatholics in the country formed their own religion, they would be the second most populous religion in the United States.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:53:12 2020 No.15351867 >>15351797 >That sword cuts both ways The only metaphysic is the revealed metaphysics in the Christian religion as explained by the apostles and their successors in the Church Christ himself established. All else is heresy and is to be discarded.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:54:36 2020 No.15351874

>>15351855
To humble thyself. Prayer is not like sending a wishlist to santaclause. Prayer is meditative and self-reflective, you should be acknowledging your sins and shortcomings, giving thanks to your good circumstance, and promising to work hard to acheive and protect those things.

These are all healthy mental exercises.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:54:50 2020 No.15351875 >>15351853 It does yes. Why are then more than 10 000 different sects in Christianity if this "truth" is so universal and knowable. The only thing it proves is that your holy book is a very confused and contradictory thing that nobody can agree on

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:55:14 2020 No.15351879 >>15351861 >catholic >US So... protestant? Modern US catholicism is diluted liberal protestantism with catholic trappings.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:55:38 2020 No.15351881 >>15351857 See>>15351874

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:55:52 2020 No.15351882 >>15351879 You are a retard Fuck off

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:56:27 2020 No.15351883

>>15351747

All Buddholic thought is bound by the Phenomenal, its Theology and Philosophy is simply a daisy chain of Phenomenology in which the Phenomena are called "God", "Man", "Soul", etc. with little to no change to their amoral, abominable, mortal interaction.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:57:13 2020 No.15351888 >>15351874 This is not how prayer is used at all in the bible, nor in history, nor in the present day. Don't kind yourself, internet bishop.

Anonymous Wed May 13 05:57:22 2020 No.15351890

>>15351874
It is a fair point, but you can be meditative and self -relflective, acknowledging your shortcomings, be happy for good circumstance, and promise to work hard to achieve and protect things without the need for any god

Most good people on this planet do this, irrespective of religion

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:58:37 2020 No.15351893 >>15351883 Can you provide an actual example without your obfuscating word diarrhea? Jesus Christ, you are saying nothing of substance.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:59:38 2020 No.15351898 >>15351888 Yes it is?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:00:33 2020 No.15351902 >>15351883 >with little to no change to their amoral, abominable, mortal interaction. I would argue that Tibetan Buddhists are generally better people than your typical Christian

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:01:45 2020 No.15351908 >>15351890 Congrats youve made it to the "I can be good without God" point in your edgy athiest journey. I wish you the best of luck in growing in the future.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:02:54 2020 No.15351912

>>15351875
>Why are then more than 10 000 different sects in Christianity
Because demons like to pick and invent their own beliefs and spread them to people who don't want to actually follow Christ as it makes them uncomfortable and forces them to change their lifestyle to the very core.
>is so universal and knowable
Is still is universal and practiced in every nation by all sorts of people. It was so in the West too until people willingly rejected Christ due to their hubris and still don't want to turn back. This is perfectly historical for God's chosen people to do.
>very confused and contradictory thing that nobody can agree on
Please demonstrate how the traditional understanding of scripture by the Church Fathers is contradictory or confused. We look up to what Christ, the apostles and their successors teach, not some anglo in 2020 within his heretical sect.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:04:25 2020 No.15351918 >>15351721 Maybe?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:04:30 2020 No.15351919 >>15351890 >without the need for any god Those things would never exist if God did not create you in His image with a desire for good, which does not exist without God in the first place.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:05:32 2020 No.15351926

>>15351881
So in essence, prayer is just spiritual masturbation. It’s to address a god who does what he wants regardless, to thank him for all the goods things you’ve gained completely at random and that could be instantly taken away without explanation. It’s reflecting on sins like murder, which is only a sin when man does it, but is totally okay when your god does it.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:06:01 2020 No.15351929
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>>15351926
>So in essence, prayer is just spiritual masturbation. It’s to address a god who does what he wants regardless, to thank him for all the goods things you’ve gained completely at random and that could be instantly taken away without explanation. It’s reflecting on sins like murder, which is only a sin when man does it, but is totally okay when your god does it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:07:17 2020 No.15351936 >>15351919 Then he also created Ted Bundy, Ed Gein and Donald Trump in his image. What an image it must be

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:07:31 2020 No.15351938 >>15351912 If God ruled the universe, disagreement on him shouldn’t be possible to begin with. He wouldn’t even get rid of heretical sects, they wouldn’t exist to begin with

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:07:40 2020 No.15351940

>>15351893

The Catholic obsession with the alleged interdependence of the "soul" and the "body", has nothing to do with Reason and is instead sustained by constant reference to Phenomenal interdependence, simply because it is there. Pure Phenomenology.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:09:25 2020 No.15351951 >>15351929 Nice deflection, but that doesn’t address what I said. Why should I pray to a god that doesn’t stop evil, and does what he wants? How is that in any way different from not being religious in the first place?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:09:39 2020 No.15351953 >>15351938 >disagreement on him shouldn’t be possible to begin with He allows disagreement because he valued creating us with free will to worship and love him freely.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:11:33 2020 No.15351959 >>15351953 And why is there evil to choose from to begin with? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever in a reality that is supposedly ruled by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god. Free will doesn’t explain that

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:11:40 2020 No.15351960

>>15351926
Prayer is good even from a non Christian perspective, it grounds the believe and softens their hearts. Prayer isn't exclusive to Christianity, but the effects are universal for all different faiths, which could mean that there is a benevolent God beyond all dogmatic autism

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:11:53 2020 No.15351962

>>15351926
No, masturbation is a wasted act; it's self-gratification with no benifit that often leaves one feeling useless and disgusting afterwords.
Prayer is productive meditation that enriches one with positive mental fortitudes and catharsis, it's a far healthier habit.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:13:15 2020 No.15351965

>>15351951
>Why should I pray to a god that doesn’t stop evil
Why is he obliged to stop everything that goes against your will? If stopping what you perceive to be evil in this current fallen world is your only goal, then God already said that this will not happen. Following Christ is necessarily a path of suffering in this world.
>does what he wants?
Literally who are you to tell God what to do? How could you possibly council him on anything with your utterly limited viewpoint?
>How is that in any way different from not being religious in the first place?
You live your life according to God's will. A non-religious person just makes things up as he goes along, placing all of his hope either on something that is destined to vanish or on some vague self-refuting nonsense belief.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:13:37 2020 No.15351967 >>15351951 >>15351959 >if god, why evil? Why not?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:13:53 2020 No.15351968 >>15351940 What does this have to do with Buddhism? Of course depending on the sect, but in Mahayana they have completely rejected the 'All Mind' school of belief. It ultimately rejects this interdependence.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:15:56 2020 No.15351979 >>15351962 >it's self-gratification with no benifit that often leaves one feeling useless and disgusting afterwords. much like going to church

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:16:41 2020 No.15351984 >>15351829 >Which is kinda odd since theyre the least invested culturally, compared to say, thailand or mainland china yeah but on the other hand you get wise oriental man PLUS anime. hard to beat. suck it abrahamists.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:17:01 2020 No.15351985

>>15351959
>why is there evil to choose from to begin with
There is only good and the absence of good. This directly follows from free will in a fallen and non-perfected world where one can step away from God. God did not create positively existing evil or anything evil in itself.

>>15351960
>but the effects are universal for all different faiths
>that there is a benevolent God beyond all dogmatic autism
Yeah, praying to demons and getting into exalted states where you perform child sacrifices in your "faith" surely is from the same source as Christ.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:17:21 2020 No.15351986 >>15351979 Nah. Youre just being an edgy teen at this point. Fun chat but im bored now.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:18:08 2020 No.15351989 >>15351902 >I would argue that Tibetan Buddhists are generally better people than your typical Christian You probably think that Catholics are bad because their priests are pederasts, too.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:18:43 2020 No.15351991 >>15351902 >generally better people Being seen as better by an internet atheist isn't going to save them from hellfire though.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:21:06 2020 No.15352000

>>15351985
>muh demons
Christians see demons everywhere, it's a pathology on their part
>>15351991
>Being seen as better by an internet atheist isn't going to save them from hellfire though.
I wouldn't be to sure of my own salvation if this was the God I worshipped, he seems like a sadist by creating limited creatures and putting them through a severe psychological gameshow before locking them in his torture dungeon

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:21:08 2020 No.15352001 >>15351986 Sorry I hurt your feelings, buddy

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:21:33 2020 No.15352002

>>15351965
All your saying is there is no use in prayer. Your viewpoint is too limited to understand or council him with, so why pray. You do adress the question of suffering or evil. You merely say it is needed, but to a child dying from bone cancer, it is certainly not needed. How about a pious person murdered for no reason at all?

You are deflecting the question to some test that is never needed nor asked for. No sane person would ask for this, it is forced upon all in this viewpoint.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:22:38 2020 No.15352005 >>15351989 There are good Catholics, but super trad Catholics are imbalanced usually

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:22:56 2020 No.15352007 >>15351985 >There is only good and the absence of good. That’s simply relabeling ‘evil’ as ‘the absence of good’, and isn’t explainable in a universe ruled by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:24:12 2020 No.15352012

>>15351985
>There is only good and the absence of good.
This is not a 'solution' to the problem of evil, it's just renaming it. You could just as easily say 'there's only evil and the absence of evil'.
This does nothing to really make an effort to say what 'good' actually is or what 'evil' actually is.
>God did not create positively existing evil or anything evil in itself
Isaiah 45:7
>I make peace, and create evil
Please stop your smoke and mirrors act.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:24:23 2020 No.15352013

>>15347322
An idea I have been thinking about lately is that there is no solution to the problem of evil in the general case, but that the central mechanism of hope is that the solution exists in any particular case. The practice of the faith is in many ways allowing God to transform evil into good in our own particular cases.
Thoughts?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:25:31 2020 No.15352018 >>15350444 checked

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:26:33 2020 No.15352024

>>15352000
>Christians see demons everywhere
It comes naturally when you understand and see how every single non-Christian religion is based on pridefully rejecting Christ along with the same basic confusions which were debunked as heresies centuries ago.

>he seems like a sadist by creating limited creatures and putting them through a severe psychological gameshow before locking them in his torture dungeon
That you see Christ as a sadist says more about you than it does about Him. Try reading the Gospel and tell me that you genuinely believe this. Why do you place the blame on God instead of humans for the things humans do when they actively rebel against Him? How does that make any sense?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:28:06 2020 No.15352033 >>15351968 Catholicism and Buddhism converge in dependent arsing, rejection of Monads, culminating in the rejection of God as a Monad.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:28:44 2020 No.15352037 >>15352033 go on

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:29:46 2020 No.15352042 >>15352033 I have no problem with any of these things

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:30:34 2020 No.15352047

>>15352024
The problem with this view is that thousands upon thousands of people have been killed in the name of your religion, or as a direct interpretation of what is written in its book. To say this is only humans acting bad is wrong

If the bible says that if a man sleeps with another man they should be stoned to death, than that is what is says, no matter how you wish to interpret it

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:33:33 2020 No.15352057

>>15352024
>every single non-Christian religion is based on pridefully rejecting Christ
mental illness
>Try reading the Gospel and tell me that you genuinely believe this
Not all the gospels are consistent and coherent, and the way the church interprets them is insane
>Why do you place the blame on God instead of humans for the things humans do when they actively rebel against Him?
Imagine a family in Tibet, are they rebelling against Jesus for not being a Christian and rejecting proselytization from some rando missionaries threatening them with hellfire? Christianity is basically selling us a cure for a problem that it creates, namely eternal damnation. Also if you're a Catholic you also believe that all unbaptized babies go to hell, such a loving and good God lmao

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:35:15 2020 No.15352066 >>15352057 That is a very astute observation. "It gives a solution to a problem it creates". Never though of it that way

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:35:35 2020 No.15352069

>>15352024
>Why do you place the blame on God instead of humans for the things humans do when they actively rebel against Him? How does that make any sense?
God has the power to stop evil, we don’t. He could snap his fingers right now, and all evil would instantly disappear. Why doesn’t he? Why does he need you to become part of a MLM scheme first?

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:36:03 2020 No.15352072

>>15352007
>isn’t explainable in a universe ruled by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god
Evil doesn't exist in reality, only operations of free human will which are against God's will. There is no "thing" called evil, so you cannot charge God with creating it. Essentially all of your objections/complaints reduce to "why is the world not like i wish it was", which is answered by Adam's sin staining the whole world which will be fixed with the final judgement.

>>15352012
>'there's only evil and the absence of evil
This would be false, because evil has no positive existence and the mere absence of evil would not be good.

>ἐγὼ ὁ κατασκευάσας φῶς καὶ ποιήσας σκότος ὁ ποιῶν εἰρήνην καὶ κτίζων __κακά__ ἐγὼ κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ ποιῶν ταῦτα πάντα
>κακός kakós, kak-os'; apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically, such; whereas G4190 properly refers to effects), i.e. (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious:—bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.

>יוֹצֵ֥ר אוֹר֙ וּבוֹרֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁל֖וֹם וּב֣וֹרֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃
>I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe— I the LORD do all these things.

>Please stop your smoke and mirrors act.
Please stop using bugman english translations without actually reading the previous 6 verses and the previous 44 books you quote from.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:37:41 2020 No.15352082

>>15352047
All three abrahamic religions are an attempt to monopolize God. The religious wars in Europe were a direct result of this barbaric intolerant religion, and it took secret sects like freemasonry to put out the hysteria and implement free republics. Christianity is an evil religion just like Islam and Judaism

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:39:07 2020 No.15352091 >>15352082 I fully agree with you. The very basis of these religions, the building blocks or foundations if you will is the problem

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:40:46 2020 No.15352101

>>15352057
>>every single non-Christian religion is based on pridefully rejecting Christ
>mental illness
Both Rabbinical "Judaism" and Islam are literally based on the rejection of Christ. I for one wouldn't go quite as far as saying "all other religions are based on"this to the same extent but it is true that, right now, every non-Christian religion has *some* means of explaining why Christianity is incorrect.

>Not all the gospels are consistent and coherent, and the way the church interprets them is insane
How so?

>Imagine a family in Tibet, are they rebelling against Jesus for not being a Christian and rejecting proselytization from some rando missionaries threatening them with hellfire? Christianity is basically selling us a cure for a problem that it creates, namely eternal damnation.
You know that Tibetan/vajra Buddhism teaches that there is a hell that people need to be saved from right.

>Also if you're a Catholic you also believe that all unbaptized babies go to hell, such a loving and good God lmao
?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:42:13 2020 No.15352108 >>15352072 So the problem of "operations of free human will which are against God's will" then.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:42:58 2020 No.15352113 >>15352101 The difference is that they don't believe in an eternal dogmatic hell, this metaphysical creation has brought about nothing but hysteria and cruelty in the world.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:43:09 2020 No.15352115

>>15352057
>mental illness
You are literally displaying a prideful rejection of Christ by elevating to divinity your intellect and personal subjective preferences for how the world should look at this very moment, completely disregarding God and his plans for it.
>Not all the gospels are consistent and coherent
Only if you directly presuppose their falsehood within a rationalistic bugman ethic and worldview.
>the way the church interprets them is insane
The Church is authorized to interpret them by God himself. So that is absolutely the only correct interpretation. What exactly do you not like about it?

>>15352002
>Your viewpoint is too limited to understand or council him with, so why pray.
So that I can follow His will better and be in a state more receptive to seeing what He would wants me to do.
>child dying from bone cancer
You presuppose this is bad because you only care about the material world. God could take this child into heaven with this path and teach his parents a lesson in strength and fortitude, saving them and others in the process too.
>How about a pious person murdered for no reason at all?
no visible reason for your limited mind*
God could have chosen this way to send him into heaven and punish the murderer, or for any other countless reasons you couldn't even begin to understand.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:44:05 2020 No.15352119

>>15352072
>Evil doesn't exist in reality, only operations of free human will which are against God's will. There is no "thing" called evil, so you cannot charge God with creating it.
Again, that doesn’t make any sense. He is all powerful, and good, which means that it shouldn’t be possible to go against his will in the first place. He could easily make evil like breaking the speed of light, a physical impossibility, which would make it cease to exist, yet he chooses not to. That is inconsistent with the various attributes of God. Also, I can absolutely charge your god with it, as he is in possession of all the power of the universe. If I were to witness someone trying to murder someone else, and I saw this happening in front of me, and I had a baseball bat to beat up the murderer, and I choose to do nothing, I would be charged with negligence, and rightly so. With God this is even worse, as his omnipotence assures the destruction of evil by default. In other words, your god has no excuse

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:44:05 2020 No.15352120

>>15352072
>>κακός kakós, kak-os'; apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically, such; whereas G4190 properly refers to effects), i.e. (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious:—bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.
κακόςand רַ֣ע are both evil you bullshitter. You haven't said a single genuine word, you absolute snake.
Fuck off if you're not going to actually speak.
>hu le bugman!!!
Both Catholic and Protestant bibles translate them as 'evil'.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:46:32 2020 No.15352130
File: 787 KB, 1326x1981, Félix_Joseph_Barrias_-_The_Temptation_of_Christ_by_the_Devil_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15352069
>He could snap his fingers right now, and all evil would instantly disappear. Why doesn’t he?

I wonder who could be behind this post...

>Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

>Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

>‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’
>and,‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
>Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”

>Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

>Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
>Then Jesus said to him, [b]“Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”

>Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:47:06 2020 No.15352136

>>15352115
That is completely wrong. I care about life and that everyone should have a fair chance at it. The problem you do not seem to grasp is that innocence is punished. That children who are in no way responsible for it DIE by the millions each year through no fault of their own. This is something that only your god can be responsible for. Free will will save your argument for adults, but it fails completely in the case of innocence

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:47:28 2020 No.15352138 >>15352115 >God will only save people who eat a piece of bread and confess their dirty deeds to a priest who's also probably a pedophile You don't worship God

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:49:18 2020 No.15352151 >>15352136 Catholics believe that babies who die in the womb go to hell because they never got baptized, imagine that.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:50:15 2020 No.15352157 >>15352151 No good entity will allow this to happen. Malevolence or indifference is the only solution

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:50:53 2020 No.15352160

>>15352108
Solved by following Christ and cleansing your will and your heart. If literally all of humanity did this, the thing you call "evil" would dissapear. So start by looking at your problem and not blaming God for it like a petulant child.

>>15352120
>doesn't understand that words have multiple meanings
>doesn't understand that "evil" does not need to mean "actual real substance that exists and is not good"
Cringe pharisee. Begone with your wordgames.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:51:55 2020 No.15352168 >>15352130 >spotting inconsistencies in Christianity means you’re the Devil Why does the Devil exist in the first place? Shouldn’t killing him be a piece of cake to God?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:52:19 2020 No.15352172 >>15352157 pictures of sad Jesus >also tells unbaptized babies he never knew him, and to depart from his sight into everlasting hellfire and darkness What a swell dude

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:54:01 2020 No.15352179 >>15352160 >If literally all of humanity did this, the thing you call "evil" would dissapear. In that case, ‘good’ and ‘evil’ would cease to have any meaning whatsoever.

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:54:41 2020 No.15352182

>>15352160
lamo I'm not the one playing words games. I'm sure your interpretation of the verse is a lot better than mutliple translations, like KJV and Douay–Rheims.
On the topic of words, please define to me what is this 'evil' without making a reference to 'good'.
And while you are doing so please define 'good' without a reference to 'evil'.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:55:43 2020 No.15352184 File: 4 KB, 211x239, 4235234324.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >sees baby die without water baptism >"I must damn you I'm so sorry" >dramatic runescape music plays

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:57:05 2020 No.15352188 >>15352160 The initial question is about the cause, not the solution.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:57:25 2020 No.15352191 File: 6 KB, 259x194, 34534534534.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >"Let's torch some unbaptized babies souls with the father"

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:58:27 2020 No.15352197 File: 47 KB, 798x420, 21ba0f0a045c60dc7329238e93dfb189.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >jesus whips unbaptized babies for their transgressions against the father

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:58:42 2020 No.15352199 >>15352184 You can't be pro-death without first being pro-life

Anonymous Wed May 13 06:59:02 2020 No.15352201

>>15352136
>That is completely wrong.
Subjectively, to you. Why would God want to please you when you rebel against him?
>that everyone should have a fair chance at it
A fair chance at living a material life full of happiness in this world was never promised by God. Why would he have to follow this? To please the modern man's notion of what good is?
>innocence is punished
If by "punished" you mean temporal distress in this world, then God never promised anyone would be free of it.
>DIE by the millions each year through no fault of their own.
You are only assuming this is bad because you value the material world more than God. Christ did not teach us to live our lives in hope of getting to have a good time here before we die.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:00:35 2020 No.15352208 >>15352179 >would cease to have any meaning whatsoever God would not cease to exist and he is eternally good. If all of humanity followed God there would be no crimes is what I'm saying. So it's stupid to blame God for the mistakes of humans.

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:02:23 2020 No.15352219

>>15352201
Again you confuse material world and life. I care about LIFE, not materialism. There is a lot in this world that is not material and not religious

You show a complete disregard towards the distress and suffering of others. Would you still feel the same way if it is your child suffering every day? What if your child stomach swole from no food and they cried constantly from the pain it causes. Your disregards of others' experiences is alarming

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:03:30 2020 No.15352222 >>15352201 It is evil to justify that suffering so callously

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:04:40 2020 No.15352224 >>15352222 Quads of truth and enlightenment, Christianity makes people cruel

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:07:16 2020 No.15352236 >>15352201 >You are only assuming this is bad If that's good to you then I don't want to follow your godawful religion

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:10:45 2020 No.15352251 >>15351741 hinduism is identical to jewism

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:14:01 2020 No.15352263

>>15352182
>define to me what is this 'evil' without making a reference to 'good'.
You can't define 'evil' without 'good', as it does not have real existence apart from a falling away from God's will in the current conditions of the world.
>define 'good' without a reference to 'evil'
God's will is good. Doing good is following God's will. No reference to 'evil' is necessary.
>I'm sure your interpretation of the verse is a lot better than mutliple translations
Translations just translate the words in context to make sense as a coherent narrative, they don't give a detailed metaphysical interpretation. You have to be genuinely deluded if you think that believing people would even translate it this way in the first place if it supported the idea that God is somehow evil in nature.

>>15352219
>>I care about LIFE
>we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
This is the only kind of life we have certainty about. You only care about this fallen world, this is materialism.
>You show a complete disregard towards the distress and suffering of others.
sure, that's why so many Christians perform charity all over the world and try to alleviate people's suffering. they think their God is evil and don't care about other people's suffering.
>Would you still feel the same way if it is your child suffering every day?
I pray that I never fall away from the truth under any circumstances. Me fooling myself into believing that God is bad wouldn't help me or my suffering child, quite the opposite. He is the only true comforter.
>Your disregards of others' experiences is alarming
This can be said about you. You literally disregard more than two-thousand years of lived experience because some people in modernity rebelled against Christ.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:14:16 2020 No.15352266 >>15352208 >If all of humanity followed God there would be no crimes is what I'm saying. If God was all powerful and omnibenevolent, the very concept of ‘crime’ wouldn’t exist in the first place, and yet it does

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:15:02 2020 No.15352269 >>15352263 explain >>15352184 >>15352191 >>15352197

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:15:27 2020 No.15352270 >>15352236 >I don't want to follow your godawful religion Valuing the material above God would naturally lead you to such absurd conclusions.

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:16:13 2020 No.15352273

>>15352263
>You can't define 'evil' without 'good', as it does not have real existence apart from a falling away from God's will in the current conditions of the world.
More nonsense. I'm not going to have a discussion with someone who keeps spouting out hot air.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:19:45 2020 No.15352289 File: 161 KB, 544x800, 5234325.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >BAPTIZES BABY WITH BEER >GOD'S RAGE BONER IS APPEASED

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:21:01 2020 No.15352298

>>15352263
You are really confused

"This is the only kind of life we have certainty about. You only care about this fallen world, this is materialism". I agree that this is the only life we have and that we must make the best of it, and lead the best lives we can. There is no use in delaying this to som after life that no one has ever been able to prove. Live the best you can now and care for those around you, alleviate their suffering. You put this off because you will be rewarded for it in the next life? That is absurd thinking not to alleviate the suffering of those around you

And charity does not make what you believe true. If god is proved by charity, he would have been proven in hundreds of different religions

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:21:51 2020 No.15352304

>>15352269
I don't follow Catholicism and don't care about its autistic rationalistic doctrine. Christ is the High Priest and can confer valid baptism onto children even in the womb if He chooses to, unbaptized martyrs also get baptized by Christ in their blood.

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:29:07 2020 No.15352328

>>15352298
>lead the best lives we can
Your notion of best life seems to be very different from those people who willingly underwent torture and died instead of rejecting Christ and living a more comfortable and longer life.
>That is absurd thinking not to alleviate the suffering of those around you
You should be compassionate and help people in this life, this is the most well-known Christian teaching.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:30-31

“When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the LORD your God.
“You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD .
“You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning. You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the LORD.
“You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.
“You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:9-18

What you should not do is rebel against God because suffering exists temporarily in this mode of being.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:33:32 2020 No.15352342 >>15352328 >people who willingly underwent torture and died People do this for religions all the time. Nothing differentiates them from one another.

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:33:34 2020 No.15352343

>>15352328
"You should be compassionate and help people in this life, this is the most well-known Christian teaching." Not quite, this is a form of the golden rule that has been practised in every culture, even those that predate Christian culture. The greeks practised it long before your messiah came along

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:35:52 2020 No.15352355 >>15352342 Agreed. Stoning people to death is completely " voluntary"

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:37:52 2020 No.15352369

>>15352343
>Not quite
I didn't say that only Christians had it, but that it's the one thing even seculars know about Christianity, that it tells us to love people.
>The greeks practised it
Because they were made in God's image.
>predate Christian culture
No human would predate Adam.

>>15352342
>People do this for religions all the time.
So? My point was that a Christian ideal of a good life is different from the one he is trying to impose as the universal one a good God should grant to all people.
>Nothing differentiates them from one another.
Dying for Christ is different than blowing yourself up for virgin sex slaves in heaven.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:38:06 2020 No.15352370 >>15352355 Nice mental deficiency you got there bro.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:40:14 2020 No.15352378 >>15351756 >1.1 billion hinduists >1.1 billion atheists/agnostics/nonreligious >0.5 billion buddhists >Countless people from a past before christianity >Babies dying shortly after birth before being baptised?

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:40:20 2020 No.15352380

>>15352369
Funny how you think I was referring to Islam. Are you forgetting the people burned to death by Catholics, for what? For nothing. Catholics burning Catholics.
Before christianity there were martyrs. In religions in the far east there were and are martyrs. Christianity isn't an exceptional religion. It is a mundane admixture of semetic monotheism and greek philosophy.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:42:02 2020 No.15352386 >>15352355 retard alert

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:45:19 2020 No.15352401 >>15352369 >No human would predate Adam That explains nothing. There is a very large amount of evidence to prove otherwise

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:46:25 2020 No.15352410 >>15352386 That is sarcasm if you'd please

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:47:42 2020 No.15352417 >>15351219 >For all we know time might stretch in an infinite amount before that. An infinite amount of time cannot come to an end.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:49:02 2020 No.15352421 >>15352417 And exactly why should there be an end?

Anonymous Wed May 13 07:51:53 2020 No.15352439

>>15347322
that is a bullshitty approach to that problem and you go the wrong way to do the right thing.

The obvious solution is that Evil is necessary for Good to exist. In the beginning God created light and darkness which means nothing else than bipolarity. Bipolarity is needed to define things, you need to know what something not is to what it is. If you have no Evil you have no Good

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:57:30 2020 No.15352467 File: 10 KB, 220x294, 220px-Junkofurutaportrait.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Christians believe that God is currently torturing this girl more severely than what happened to her on earth because she was Japanese and not a Christian

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 07:59:27 2020 No.15352476 >>15352467 Yes. Based.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:00:59 2020 No.15352482 >>15352467 Japanese are the best genepool on Earth and in retrospect we just should have let them have it imho

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:01:53 2020 No.15352486 >>15352467 Christianity also has a fucked up fetish for suffering and torture. I wouldn't be surprised if heaven for them looked just like their idea of hell.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:04:03 2020 No.15352498 >>15352421 >>15351219 >Before that An infinite amount of time before a beginning of time is logically impossible.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:04:51 2020 No.15352503 >>15352482 I believe that Japanese are North East Indians and they have ancient Aryan genes

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:07:03 2020 No.15352514 >>15352482 their genes are mostly a mix of han chinese and korean

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:08:41 2020 No.15352522 >>15352486 I'm pretty sure I remember a Catholic description of hell that stated God inflames every crevice with his magical blowtorch to the souls in hell and purgatory, that's very similar to what happened to the poor Jap girl.

Anonymous Wed May 13 08:12:31 2020 No.15352545

>>15352498
I should clarify some. It does not mean an infinite amount before the beginning of time, It means an infinite amount since the beginning if you wish to express it clearer. But this would still not be correct. A better way to think of it would be an infinite timeline with us at the end of it

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:20:37 2020 No.15352580 >>15352545 >A better way to think of it would be an infinite timeline with us at the end of it Again, an infinite timeline cannot have an end, that’s an oxymoron.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:26:34 2020 No.15352608 >>15352580 Fair point. Take a timeline that goes infinitely into the past and will unfurl infinitely into the future. Would that suffice?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:27:17 2020 No.15352612 >>15347322 nice stockholm syndrome you got going on there pal

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:31:13 2020 No.15352627 File: 27 KB, 236x350, d49d4a6ff3453469c9cf8ab774738966--su.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] God has a special plan for humanity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vntWG7ogIs&t

Anonymous Wed May 13 08:33:53 2020 No.15352639
File: 6 KB, 245x206, 245252452452.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

"no jesus I was a good protestant, I loved you so much, you helped me so much in life and I died for my country and family, why are you doing this to me, why are you turning me into this hell animal, I thought jesus loved me from the beginning, what do you mean extra ecclesium nulla salus?"

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:58:03 2020 No.15352760 >>15350444 So where does evil come from?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 08:59:11 2020 No.15352765 >>15352760 The anus. Any time someone flatulates, a little more evil enters the world.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:00:49 2020 No.15352771 >>15352765 pooping is reverse sodomy

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:01:11 2020 No.15352774 >>15352771 and? it's still sodomy.

Anonymous Wed May 13 09:02:25 2020 No.15352778

>>15352639
So the question with the Protestants is whether it is possible to be a Protestant through no fault of one’s own, I.e., to love Christ, though imperfectly by invincible ignorance.
In such cases, it is not “universalist,” nor heretical to adhere to the hope that such Prots as these might achieve salvation. As it is written, “eye has not seen, nor ear heard, what God has ready for those who love him.”

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:04:18 2020 No.15352782 File: 1.11 MB, 1972x2560, 534543563465345.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15352778 O rly?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:06:25 2020 No.15352790 >>15352782 It’s in the catechism, dude. Or are you not into listening to the Church? Like more Catholic... extra Catholic, even. Like an extra ecclesiam kind of Catholic?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:07:04 2020 No.15352796 >>15352778 Every time reward or punishment is invoked to convince you whether something is true, you should be very skeptical

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:07:51 2020 No.15352799 why does God hate babies, bros?

Anonymous Wed May 13 09:10:18 2020 No.15352811

>>15352790
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his alms giving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
Cantate Domino was ex cathedra nigga

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:10:30 2020 No.15352812 >>15352796 You should not touch a hot burner because you will be burned. > hmm I am skeptical

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:11:19 2020 No.15352821 >>15352799 God hates us all - Slayer

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:12:01 2020 No.15352823 >>15352760 According to the Bible, God. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:15:06 2020 No.15352834 >>15352823 god is simply malevolent or indifferent. No more explanation is needed

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:17:05 2020 No.15352839 >>15352823 That's in the sense of calamity, though.

Anonymous Wed May 13 09:17:17 2020 No.15352840
File: 505 KB, 1600x1212, session-Council-of-Trent-Nicolo-Dorigati-Trento-1711.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

God hates us all, God hates us all
You know it's true God hates this place
You know it's true he hates this race
Homicide-suicide
Hate heals, you should try it sometime
Strive for peace with acts of war
The beauty of death we all adore
I have no faith distracting me
I know why your prayers will never be answered
God hates us all, God hates us all
God hates us all, God hates us all

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:18:21 2020 No.15352845 >>15352839 Ah, evil in the sense of calamity! That's a whole lot different. When he creates good, I am sure you mean in the sense of being beneficial as well.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:21:21 2020 No.15352855 >>15352845 He is Good.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:26:07 2020 No.15352877 >>15352855 Only because you say he is. Doesn't have the best track record, I'm sorry to say.

Anonymous Wed May 13 09:30:34 2020 No.15352893
File: 23 KB, 240x320, 32423432545.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15352877
>>15352855
Gods ultimate masterpiece and final glorification will be trillions of once human souls wriggling around like maggots in his cosmic microwave for all eternity, hallelujah!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:32:01 2020 No.15352901 >>15352877 Exactly, that's what you say. Thankfully the world doesn't abide by your will.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:33:27 2020 No.15352908 >>15352901 And thankfully it doesn't abide by the will of your fucked up religion either.

Anonymous Wed May 13 09:34:45 2020 No.15352913
File: 83 KB, 768x336, Coro_di_angeli_Francesco_Botticini-5a29b26ef1300a0019b507c6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15352908
>>15352901
The chosen few will be glorified with their master, they will look down upon your protestant mother and praise Jesus as she coagulates in infinite pain. How beautiful is justice, how sweet is the judgement of Yahweh!

Anonymous Wed May 13 09:41:07 2020 No.15352941

It seems possible that an atheist could be saved.

An open letter prayer: "I accept Jesus's gift on the condition that Christianity is true. While I think the probability of is low, I admit the possibility, in which case this message will be received, and so let it be known that in that case I am totally accepting of divine offers of salvation; my unbelief should be interpreted only as a probability assessment, and not a rejection of Christ's gift, should he in fact be divine, in which case I send my love."

If Christianity is not true, nothing has been sent. If it is true, though, then have I not just been saved?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:43:17 2020 No.15352955 >>15352913 A kind of final solution?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:43:58 2020 No.15352957 >>15352893 The source of all life is God. By going against his will, death came to this world. By making yourself distant of him it grants you suffering because he is the reason of any joy. The same fire that purifies is the same that destroys.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:44:38 2020 No.15352962 >>15352955 This is probably what Yahweh sounds after the final judgement https://youtu.be/SrQfJYH3hPQ

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:45:18 2020 No.15352964 >>15352913 What an incredibly "compassionate" you pray to. This is about as evil as it gets. Your god is not worth any praise

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 09:48:01 2020 No.15352978 >>15352913 God will judge well the gentiles who follow his law in their hearts.

Anonymous Wed May 13 10:00:55 2020 No.15353039

>>15352811
This is prooftexting, a species of unreason which is not in the spirit of our Faith.
Why are heretics and schismatics in hell?
Because heresy and schism are mortal sins.
What is required for something to be a mortal sin?
Full knowledge and complete consent.
Is the Pope condemning medieval catholic peasants who believed goofy things about the Trinity because their grandmothers explained it that way?
Obviously not.
By the same reasoning, is some bumpkin in the Shenandoah valley who just loves Jesus like his daddy did, never had the opportunity to receive the sacraments, and doesn’t have any concept that he is dissenting or in any way different from Christians elsewhere in the world a schismatic?
No.
So was the Pope condemning him?
No.
So is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which grants that such a man might hope for eternal salvation, and which you are required to obey, contradict the historical magisterium?
No.

Anonymous Wed May 13 10:44:40 2020 No.15353265

>>15351364
And we're back to foundational shit, as always happens with a coherent atheistic argument (good job btw):
Trust in God is a fundamental tenet of christianity. It's one of the axiomatic foundations of the faith. It's something even the most outwardly devout Christians struggle with, an aspirational ideal.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 11:05:38 2020 No.15353383 >>15351679 Define evil without any reference to a transcendental objective good.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 11:09:41 2020 No.15353411 >>15353265 >no dude literally just trust me lol pass

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 11:10:43 2020 No.15353415 >>15351679 >problem of a lack of good God is good so there is no lack of good

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 11:20:02 2020 No.15353484 >>15352401 >There is a very large amount of evidence to prove otherwise If this supposed evidence contradicts the existence of Adam as the first human, it isn't to be taken seriously.

Anonymous Wed May 13 11:30:18 2020 No.15353571

>>15352941
>I accept Jesus's gift on the condition that Christianity is true.
>It seems possible that an atheist could be saved.

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
- John 6:53-56

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
- 1 Corinthians 11:29

Anonymous Wed May 13 12:15:23 2020 No.15353876
File: 40 KB, 768x434, raven-bird.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15347322
The problem is framing God as Purely good. God is Nature and nature has an inherent chaos. Therefore god is neither good nor evil, god is chaotic.

The absolute opposite of Chaos would be nothing. Nothing is the opposite of Creation. God creates, and that is us, so it is good.

Anonymous Wed May 13 12:19:53 2020 No.15353908

>>15353876
Define nature and explain why you believe that is what God is. This doesn't make any sense to me because when we use something like the Aristotelian argument for God's existence we don't get nature, but something above nature or more literally, supernatural. I think this is the case for every argument for God's existence.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 12:26:48 2020 No.15353960 >>15353876 >nature has an inherent chaos. false

Anonymous Wed May 13 13:02:04 2020 No.15354187
File: 51 KB, 414x559, 5eb5edfe820c4946f325342c33df031c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15353960
Nature is absolute chaos compared to nothing and non-existence. The concept of nothing is easy to overlook but the laws of physics do not allow for 0. Every corner of the universe has energy radiating through it in the form of photons.

>>15353908
I believe its True... humans and all their machinations are natural.
Nature is existence the fabric of time and space, the natural order of entropy of creation.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 13:15:44 2020 No.15354249 >>15353876 You're conflating Creator with creature.

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/lit/ - Literature