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/lit/ - Literature

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15336716 No.15336716 [Reply] [Original]

>Calls Ancient Greece an "Apollonian" civilization
>Ulysses, who is a symbol of Greek civilization, is clearly a Faustian hero

This man was blinder than Borges

>> No.15336729

>>15336716
how was Odysseus Faustian

>> No.15336745
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15336745

A lot of these 19th and 20th Century thinkers are actually not intellectually honest. They go into texts with preexisting ideas in mind and are perfectly happy to warp or lie about the texts they use to make sure that their preexisting ideas and theories are "proven" by those texts. Nietzsche is notorious for this, Nietzsche just fucking lies and bullshits about so much of literature and philosophy because he WANTS them to say certain things, thing that may not actually be supported by a more honest reading of the texts.

>> No.15336790

>>15336745
Okay I'll entertain you but what's one thing Nietzsche lies and bullshits about?

>> No.15336800

>>15336745
the author is dead. fuck off nigger.

>> No.15336812

>>15336745
sure, nigger

>> No.15336996

>>15336790
Wagner is the obvious example. He even admits in his letters that it was all bullshit and that he was being ironic.

>> No.15337031

>>15336729
He never said that. Op is making shit up.

>> No.15337086

>>15336729
In Tennyson's "Ulysses" all of the essential attributes of the adjective "Faustian"are neatly condensed and crystallised...

* The restless desire to strive forward - to reach beyond the limits of the visible.

* The compulsion to break through the finite limitations and mundane boundaries that restrict the scope of everyday life to what is mundane, banal and spiritually stultifying.

* The irrepressible presence of a strong, robust will "to strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."

>> No.15337097

>>15336716
Ulysses is just trying to go home lmao. opposite of faustian

>> No.15337102

>>15337097
Imbecile

>> No.15337113

>>15337102
you got rekt just take it

>> No.15337120

>>15336745
>believing that "intellectual honesty" is possible
Looks like we got a brainlet here.

>> No.15337125

>>15337097
he had already done the faustian thing.

>> No.15337132

>>15337120
>putting frauds on a pedestal
Looks like we got a cuck here.

>> No.15337136

The guy's just trying to go home, that's not very Faustian.

>> No.15337144

>>15337136
>>15337125

>> No.15337155

>>15337125
Destroying Troy to get a beautiful girl is pure Apollonianism. Faustian is destroying Mesoamerica for shit and giggles.

>> No.15337169

>>15337113
Faustian doesn't mean leaving home

>>15337155
What was his encounter with the Cyclops then?

>> No.15337204

>>15337155
>Destroying Troy to get a beautiful girl is pure Apollonianism
Yes, but it's not contradictory with the Faustian spirit.
>Faustian is destroying Mesoamerica for shit and giggles.
It was for gold and other resources. Completely Apollonian, but again, not contradictory with the Faustian spirit.

>> No.15337272

>>15337169
Cyclopses were like the Greek equivalent of Ogres or Trolls, they're giant ugly beasts and hurting ugly things for being ugly is distilled Apollonianism. Hesiod had them as Hephaestus' workers, and Hephaestus notoriously got the shit kicked out of him all the time by the Gods for being an ugly cripple.

>>15337204
It's not about contradiction. If you're going to assign the events to one or the other Odysseus is clearly not very Faustian; he's just some dude trying to get back to his family after some asshole dragged the entire world across the sea to get his hot wife back. Cortes tricked a crew of men into defying the king by going on an crazy adventure to a sparsely known land to kill whatever is there. Odysseus tries to avoid doing crazy shit while Cortes goes out of his way to risk everything in the unknown.

>> No.15337287

>>15337169
Spengler defines it as striving for an unreachable horizon. Nothing major in the Iliad or Odyssey fit that

>> No.15337313

>>15336996
which letters

>> No.15337333
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15337333

>>15337287
I agree, absolutely nothing about Odysseus is Faustian at all. Just because he travels doesn't mean he's Faustian. In fitting with the Classical view of time and space, Odysseus travels from place to place, each of which is its own self contained bubble. Everywhere he goes is its own land, has its own people, its own history, its own space and time, and its separated from each by a bubble.

That's what makes Odysseus so clever, he's the man of Polytropos. He's the man who knows much because he's been everywhere. In a world filled with self contained bubbles, knowledge can only be gained by leaving your bubble, and going to others. Odysseus slips in and out of the bubbles, gather wit and wisdom, having adventures, until he returns to his own (Ithaca). Ironically, he's forced to leave his home AGAIN after the Odyssey ends, for the very same reason he even made it back, because of the very same forces that brought him home.

He's the most Apollonian hero there is: The man of many places. Polytropos. Only Apollonian man can ever appreciate a truly distinct place.

>> No.15338675

>>15337333
Yeah the Apollonian man was very much of the Megalopolis.

>> No.15338880

>>15337086
>deriving your understanding of ancient greek civilization from 19th century british poetry
based. maybe even a little redpilled?