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/lit/ - Literature

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15325452 No.15325452[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Is there any literature on the scientific validity of genderqueer/nonbinary identity? I think it's bullshit, but I'm open to be proven wrong

>> No.15325512

>>15325452
Are you sure you mean "scientific validity" don't you mean anthropological or sociological? Nowadays gender has nothing to do with science, unlike biological sex.

>> No.15325636

>>15325512
Transgender (gender dysphoria) is real, but I don't think this is written about in scientific literature, I'm just looking for some sources

>> No.15325771

>>15325636
it's in the DSM-5

>> No.15325797

>>15325452
There is loads of literature. I haven't read any but I can imagine that just a few seconds ago some university student has written another little homework on the topic. His/her professors have been doing that professionally for years.

>>15325636
Just hop on Google Scholar, mate.
>I don't think this is written about in scientific literature
Where else would it be written about?

>> No.15325803

>>15325636
Search Bourdieu he has some works on gender, also Margaret Mead among many others.
Anyway "scientific validity of genderqueer/nonbinary identity" doesn't make much sense, what do you mean by scientific validity of "genderqueer/nonbinary identity". The existence of such identities doesn't need a scientist telling you "yes, they exist".
If by validity you mean scientific literature on how are gender and sex constructed, search for those two as a random starting point and then seek your own references.

>> No.15325818

he was pretty cute as a basic dadrock guy

>> No.15325820

>>15325636
>but I don't think this is written about in scientific literature
Where else would it be written? Do you think medical procedures for trans people are entirely undocumented?

>> No.15325859

>>15325771
>DSM-5
>scientific validity
oh I'm laughing

>> No.15325872

>>15325803
this guy gets it

>> No.15325921

It's a philosophical view. It always has been and always will be no matter how much people will pretend there's an empirical basis for it. They will usually trot out brain scans but due to neuroplasticity there's no way to know if any differences are a result of acting as a transgender or some other freak instead of there being an underlying cause in the brain.

Another common one is the belief that DSDs or disorders of sexual development constitute a third sex but DSDs are a pathology in the development and formation of the male or female body. They're are all medically identifiable deviations from the sexual binary norm. Biological sex is grounded in the organisms organization for reproduction. There is no third gonad, so with DSDs what can develop are dysfunctional ovaries or testes.

The guy that invented this gender shit is a real piece of shit. John Money claimed to have successfully raised twin boys as brother and sister after a botched circumcision and used this as proof of "intersexuality," that infants aren't born with a specific gender and that and child might be raised as either boy or girl. In reality the young boy who was raised as a girl always felt that something was wrong, despite all the hormones, surgery, and social conditioning he was subjected to. The boy eventually killed himself.

>> No.15325924

>>15325452
As in empirical evidence for transgenderism as a kind of objective, fixed trait? No, and there never will be any.

Transgenderism is a sociological phenomenon as a reaction from men who increasingly find being a man makes them feel valueless and see women and femininity as a way to feel like they are worth something.

What exactly is "nonbinary" about your picture. Nonbinary seems to me like you should look like a genderless alien. He's clearly just trying to feminize himself but not committing to identifying as a woman.

>> No.15325934

>>15325771
They changed it recently to accomodate faggot sensibilities. Don't trust (((science))):

>> No.15325939

>>15325452
What a cute twink.

>> No.15326225

>>15325512
Anthropology and sociology are sciences you autistic fucking spoon. Just because it isn't STEM doesn't mean that it hasn't lead to massive developments to our knowledge and understanding of the world and human behavior for the last 100 or so years. Dense retards like you who think life can be solved with a calculator are a fucking cancer on intellectual conversation.

>> No.15326274

>>15325921

> It's a philosophical view

Yeah no shit retard, the entire debate has been about how gender itself is a social construct. There's no empirical basis to ANY gender identity, it depends entirely on the framework the culture as a whole that has been set up.

>> No.15326290

>>15325934
Truly you are a thinker of the modern age and not just a mongoloid peasant from the middle ages, scared of Jews because they eat different bread than you

>> No.15326298

>>15325921
It's clear that you have only read a partial summary of John Money's case. There's the diary of this "patient" as well as the reports from the research. And it was only after aknowledging that something was different about his/her genital/gender problem that all this internal identitary "psicosis" begun, ending with suicide. It's pretty obvious that's a problem about the normative reality of identity and not a "emergence of some kind of true biological self reclaiming its reality".
And it's John Money and Milton Diamond who invented the concept of gender, but only to aknowledge maladjustement and not to search some kind of autonomy between "sex" and "gender".

>> No.15326370

>>15325924
>reaction from men who increasingly find being a man makes them feel valueless and see women and femininity as a way to feel like they are worth something
lel

>> No.15326379

>>15325452
Do you really have that hard of a time just accepting to respect how other people live their lives? It's just the most comfortable form of self expression for a person, you don't need bean counters to justify being kind to other people

>> No.15326387

>>15326274
The OP was asking if it was scientific and I was answering his question. You may have already known the answer and that's good for you but it was necessary to state that it was a philosophical view and not a scientific one.

>>15326298
Pull your panties out of your ass, dude. We agree that John Money pioneered the concept of gender so what's the point of telling me as if I literally didn't say as much? I don't know what the point of any of this is. Is it to say that the kid only killed himself because his nature didn't align with what hes been told, that he was being raised as something he wasn't? If so then we agree.

>> No.15326411
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15326411

I've always wondered whether a lot of these people who latch onto their gender identity are simply confused that discovering their feminine spirit and assuming it to be their entire self, rather than being able to live with both male and female energy in balance

>> No.15326427

>>15326387
You haven't understood anything about what you're responding to. Read the comment againg, then read the whole case.

>> No.15326432
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15326432

Watching you all talk about gender is like watching Americans try to understand any political theory that isn't just their partisan conversation

>> No.15326442

>sex is bimodal
(Male <-> intersex <-> female)
>gender is a spectrum
(presentation, how one presents themselves to society)

it's really not that difficult. You're performing your gender at all times, you just happen to identify with the gendered aspects ascribed by society to the male sex.

>> No.15326451

>>15326411
So what are you, enbie?

>> No.15326461

>>15326427
I'm not going to read anything againg because you're clearly not interested in talking to another human being. You want to talk at people like all narcissistic trannies.

>> No.15326465

>>15326298
Tranny cope
Your days are numbered

>> No.15326468

>>15326290
kek

>> No.15326479

>>15326411
reading some karl jung now, him be talm bout anima/animus the male's female spirit and the female's male spirit so maybe there's something to do that

the gender yin yang


also I find it funny that the people, particularly on facebook, who are really into destroying the gender binary are way into enforcing a political binary which is much more stupid

end binary politics!!

>> No.15326489

>>15326461
Well, that's fine buddy, you're basing your OPINION on a partial knowledge of what you're talking about and you're not understanding what it's being told to you. Communication is clearly impossible. And i assume that you're grown up already so i'm not going to be your teacher.

>> No.15326491

>>15326479
>karl
Marxist spotted

>> No.15326502

>>15326489
My opinion is that John Money is a piece of shit who drove somebody to commit suicide with his reckless experiments. You have said nothing to contradict this.

>> No.15326547

>>15326502
Well, it's a bit more complex than that, it's not specifically John Money who made this kid commit suicide, he just contributed to it. It was the aknowledgement about his sex/gender reality within the normative constraints of what's the correct or incorrect sex/gender relation, which is so definitory that might lead to make life impossible.

>> No.15326551

>>15325452
> scientific
You don't seem to understand this is way more revolting topic than mere traps.

>> No.15326566

>>15325771
>it's in the DSM-5
that book has been debunked several times over.
try again.

>> No.15326574

>>15326547
>he just contributed to it
So he drove him to suicide. Fuck off.

>> No.15326589

>>15326502
Oh okay only your opinion. Definitely not a biased example in anyway, brought up to try to justify your ideology. Are we just going to leave out the systematic physical and emotional abuse of queer people in medical institutions? Those examples are far more prevalent than whatever tf you're talking about

>> No.15326605

Why should we treat any gender identity or sex beyond the binary as normal?

>> No.15326608

>>15326574
When a kid is born, the doctor does something, he says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl" and then, beginning with the parents of the kid, a gender identity is "given" to such kid. Later in life the they boy/girl feels that he/she is not confortable with his actual sex/gender and a process of transition begins. This boy/girl is unsuccesfull in any of the possible ways: he's not femenine/masculine enough, he feels excluded in some way, etc. He/she ends commiting suicide.
Is this doctor the one who drove the kid to suicide?

>> No.15326630

>>15326442
>sex is bimodal
>lists three possibilities
What did he mean by this?

>> No.15326633

>>15326451
I'm a cis man, but when I do things that require more emphatetic and creativy energy, I feel more feminine if that makes any sense.

>> No.15326649

>>15326608
Sex or gender is not given to a child, it's recognized. The sex of an organism is defined by its organisation for sexual reproduction. Secondary differences between the two sexes--attributes that may be visibly altered by hormone treatment--are not what makes us male or female. It's impossible to even make sense of the concept of sex apart from the ways our bodies are organized for reproduction. This organization starts to develop well before birth.

John Money drove the kid to suicide because he took what we all recognized as a boy and raised him as a girl from day one. When that boy first realized something was wrong is irrelevant. He was raised against his nature and this disordance was created by John Money.

>> No.15326689

>>15326649
kek, you just went full retard, just start with this and make things clear for the rest of us.
If sex and gender and "recognized" why is there the need for all the educative, corrective and punitive mechanisms to develop them and to correct them when they're "wrong"?

>> No.15326699

>>15326689
>all the educative, corrective and punitive mechanisms to develop them and to correct them when they're "wrong"
Care to expand on what these mechanisms are?

>> No.15326710

The use of the word gender to indicate the cultural aspects of sex is wrong
Gender refers only to words, not people or animals (i.e. the gender of "he" is male). The correct word for animals/humam beings is "sex", and it refers to both the biological qualities of the creature and to it's social aspect because they're not separable.
Gender = genus in latin
There's literally no argument against what I said

>> No.15326715

>>15326689
If apple seeds grow into apple trees, why there's a need for fertile soil, water, sun, defense against parasites to make them grow...

>> No.15326737

>>15326589
>brought up to try to justify your ideology
You progressives always try to pull this card as if people who disagree with you can't possibly be rational actors. Everything has to be subservient to some evil shadow ideology. I observe things and form opinions just like everybody else. Of course the things I bring up in conversation support my opinions, that's how arguments work.

>>15326689
Are you referring to disorders of sexual development? I talked about them in my first post. They're all medically identifiable deviations from the sexual binary norm. Biological sex is grounded in the organisms organization for reproduction. There is no third gonad, so with DSDs what develop are dysfunctional ovaries or testes. Pediatric Endocrinology states that after "an assessment of the anatomy of the sex organs," the decisions regarding a course of treatment should rest "on the likely cosmetic appearance of the reconstructed genitalia, on the potential for normal sex steroid secretion at puberty, on the potential for normal sexual intercourse, and on the potential for fertility."

When it comes "punitive mechanism" I have no idea what that could possibly be referring to. I'm not in your progressive bubble so you need to pretend you're talking with normal people.

>> No.15326743

>>15326710
>the biological qualities of the creature and to it's social aspect because they're not separable.
You have to prove this first.

>> No.15326758

>>15326699
Toys, dolls/cranes, games, which games should your kid play if he's a boy or a girl?, bulying/reprobation, the simplest mechanism of all, which include homophobic treatment and things as such against certain individuals, the psichologic/psichiatric/medical apparatus which has a clear normative definition of what is the "correct" disposition of the body/mind, and many more that i suppose you can figure out by yourself.

>> No.15326770

>>15326605
Why should we treat the binary as normal

>> No.15326775

>>15326743
No, I don't have to
The grammatical misuse of the word gender is very recent and only comes because due to the school system authority figures started treating the word "sex" as if it were a swearword (hehe, he said sex! Says 7 year old me)
You're biologically, grammatically, spiritually wrong

>> No.15326791

>>15326758
What exactly are you asking? If sex and gender is recognized then why do kids need to be raised according to their nature, as in, boys being raised as boys and girls as girls? It's like talking to an alien with you. You're not even human.

>> No.15326804

>>15326758
>Toys, dolls/cranes, games, which games should your kid play if he's a boy or a girl?,
Whatever they ask for, which was always related to the toys associated with their own sex for me, my sisters, my kids, my sisters kids, my friends kids without any imposition from me whatsover
This mechanism is so strong it even happens in chimpanzees, depending on the sex they already know which games to play
Also, it doesn't mean that if an individual uses toys of the opposite sex that individual is trans, children are curious
>all, which include homophobic treatment and things as such against certain individuals
Top down opposed in the current society obtaining 0 results
>the psichologic/psichiatric/medical apparatus which has a clear normative definition of what is the "correct" disposition of the body/mind, and many more that i suppose you can figure out by yourself
I will kill you and torture you
I'm not kidfing
I will literally kill you and torture you and livestream it

>> No.15326810

>>15326770
Because there's a trascendent order which manifests the non-dual truth inside the samsaric cycle as a conflict of two opposites

>> No.15326818

>>15326737

> Rational actor

What, you mean you? Lol

> I observe things and form opinions just like everybody else.

Yeah and that opinion will always inherently be shaded by cultural bias. What do you not understand here?

>> No.15326821

>>15326770
Because you will be excluded from society

>> No.15326845

>>15326715
Low quality phallacy. If you don't give the seed all those conditions there will be no tree, there's no tree contained in the seed. The same thing applies to gender.

>> No.15326846

>>15326810

How does the inside of your ass smell?

>> No.15326853

>>15326804
You still don't understand, you must be responding to somebody else. Please work on your reading comprehension.

>> No.15326861

>>15326845
Gender doesn't apply to human beings
The world you are looking for is sex
There's no sexual development without society. Society is the natural development of the human being

>> No.15326867

>>15326770
Because the only grounding for gender is found in biology.