/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15296005]

>"I've been working hard on [Ulysses] all day," said Joyce.

>"Does that mean that you have written a great deal?" I said.

>"Two sentences," said Joyce.

>I looked sideways but Joyce was not smiling. I thought of [French novelist Gustave] Flaubert. "You've been seeking the mot juste?" I said.

>"No," said Joyce. "I have the words already. What I am seeking is the perfect order of words in the sentence.”

Do you think you could write something good if you really toiled over it, worked every day, for years, or would you fail no matter what?

I've been thinking about this, after reading the above in Ellman's biography of Joyce. Joyce had 4 major works in his life, Dubliners, Portrait, Ulysses, and Finnegans Wake. He also wrote some poems and a play, but most of his work went into those 4 books.

William Gaddis published 4 books in his lifetime, and one was published posthumously. Perhaps his best book, J R, came 20 years after The Recognitions, with nothing in between.

Pynchon has published 8 novels in his lifetime and one book of short stories, but he is mostly known for 3-5 books.

So, would someone like Don DeLillo, who is quite a good writer ( at least I think so, from reading Libra, Underworld, and White Noise) be much better if he worked for longer on his books? DeLillo has published 18 books in his life, and on average was releasing a book every 2-3 years.

Would someone extreme like Stephen King for example, improve at all from having a tougher editor or being more choosy with what he publishes, or is someone like that incapable of changing in this way?

[Anonymous No.15296020]

>>15296005
From Oscar Wilde:
"I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again.”

[Anonymous No.15296049]

>>15296020
Noooooo, what do we do??!!!

[Anonymous No.15296069]

>>15296005
Joyce was a weird case cause he was semi-schizo.

[Anonymous No.15296081]

I'm a writer and a poet myself and I don't think it's as simple as the OP is describing. It's a little hard to describe.

There have been times when I have procrastinated and ruminated all day over a relatively small, empty part of a story or a poem. Some of it is that I'm a lazy shitposter who loves to waste time browsing 4chan and listening to music and reading manga. But that's not all. Sometimes I just can't be arsed to make myself work.

Other times, I have been so infused with desire to write, and such a clear, direct sense of what I want to say, that I can write huge amounts in a very short amount of time. Just a few weeks ago I wrote five thousand words in a single night. A few months ago, working on a different project, I hit 15,000 words in a single day.

Every project is different. Gene Wolfe once said to Neil Gaiman, "You never learn how to write a book, you just learn how to write the book you're writing," and that feels very true. I know there have been some great works of literature which took a long time, and others that didn't take any time at all. And even within works, different parts and aspects occur at different speeds. Sometimes you really do just brood over a line or a sentence for a while. Other times it all comes out in a rush, dozens of pages at once. It really all just depends. You can't measure it, you can just experience it as it happens. So I don't think Don DeLillo would be a greater artist if he spent more time on his works. I'm not sure spending more or less time on his novels could make him any greater than he already is.

There's a great movie about the painting of the Sistine Chapel, "The Agony and the Ecstasy." Rex Harrison plays Pope Julius II and Charlton Heston plays Michelangelo. As Michelangelo is painting the Sistine Chapel, the Pope is constantly coming in to check on his progress.

Over and over, the Pope asks the same question: "When will you be done?" And Michelangelo gives the same answer every time: "When I am finished." That's what it feels like to write a big work.

[Anonymous No.15296118]

>>15296081
Is meant to be ironic? Genuinely can't tell, desu. It's possibly the most Reddit thing I've ever read on this website.

[Anonymous No.15296138]

>>15296005
>So, would someone like Don DeLillo,...be much better if he worked for longer on his books? DeLillo has published 18 books
For everyone not-Joyce/Pynchon, the editor can spare you this amount of time and toil, provided they have a free hand and the publisher isn't breathing down everyone's necks on deadlines. This broaches ghostwriting (and the talent's ego), however -- matters less in a Delillo case because of the brand (commercial writing, pumping out paperbacks)

>>15296020
>One must place the pebble just so
Sometimes it be like that, but it really do

[Anonymous No.15296188]

>>15296118
You're not very smart, are you, Anon?

[Anonymous No.15296285]

Stendhal wrote one of his famous books (I can't remember which one) in two months. Balzac could write a whole book in a day, but he would rewrite it many times and change stuff even during the printing process. Monteiro Lobato spent some decades in a short story that has 2 pages and it's about a town he visited when he was young. Sometimes you need to work on it and sometimes you need to hurry up.
If you're interested on the topic, read The Luminous Novel from Mario Levrero.

[Anonymous No.15296294]

>>15296285
>Balzac

Am I not supposed to call him Ball Sack?

[Anonymous No.15296341]

>>15296081
My, my quite the shitpost, indeed, Autismotron

[Anonymous No.15296467]

>>15296294
I always like to start very quiet slowly going up in volume and when I get to the Z my voice is in a loud fevered pitch

[Anonymous No.15296478]

>>15296467
>very quiet slowly going up

sounds like you're talking about sucking a dick

[Anonymous No.15296514]

>>15296478
reddit.com/subreddit/woosh

[Anonymous No.15297314]

>>15296005
>Do you think you could write something good if you really toiled over it, worked every day, for years, or would you fail no matter what?
No, I think having a day job and a night hobby keeps both things in balance. At least, for me, it works. Not crossing the verge of insanity.

[Anonymous No.15297338]

>>15296005
>He also wrote some poems and a play, but most of his work went into those 4 books.
He wrote quite a lot more than that, but his grandson Stephen was a well known copyright troll who took advantage of the rules around previously unpublished works. Another thing to remember is WWI fucked up book publishing for decades, so for a lot of Joyce's life getting published was extremely difficult, and that's not taking into account the censorship in the British Empire.

[Anonymous No.15297910]

>>15296285
The Charterhouse of Parma is the book by Stendhal you referred

[Anonymous No.15297931]

>>15296514
>reddit
You have to go back, faggot.

[Anonymous No.15298003]

>>15296005
>>15296020
This makes me feel way better about how I compose music

[Anonymous No.15298014]

>>15296005
>Ulysses
>Good

[Anonymous No.15298025]

>>15298014

[Anonymous No.15298029]

lol I'm not gonna spill my drank over some fag

[Anonymous No.15298045]

>>15296081
500 words a day bro

[Anonymous No.15298055]

>>15298045
a NEET should be pulling 1000 a day easily, 1500 if they're applying themselves

[Anonymous No.15298102]

>>15296005
>Spend years autistically obsessing over the minutiae of every word
>end up with an incomprehensible clusterfuck of pretentious garbage
>during this time you could've published 2-4 decently-written books with meaningful messages, engaging plotlines and well-written characters
Why do people think that Ulysses is any good? The best novels are ones that can be enjoyed at a surface level but which also have hidden depth.

[Anonymous No.15298111]

>>15296081
No, it's better to set yourself a clear goal (say, 3 pages a day) and just fucking stick to it. I've wasted countless hours ruminating over petty shit that doesn't make any difference and I can assure you it all comes down to nothing.

[Anonymous No.15298126]

>>15298045
>>15298055
>500-1500 words a day
What the FUCK are you guys doing? I can literally write 7'000 words an hour on my first draft and it takes me maybe two weeks to edit.

[Anonymous No.15298140]

>>15298126
>he writes two words every second

none of the previous figures were unreasonable in any way, yet you felt the need to undercut them with a cheap joke... kek

[Anonymous No.15298153]

>>15298140
You can absolute write two words a second. Once you get into a decent flow you can write even faster than that.

[Anonymous No.15298157]

>>15298153
>what is the difference between peak speed and average speed
if you can write good stuff fast, show us your work, bucko

[Anonymous No.15298242]

>>15298126
I don't always write for an hour nor do I often have 1h in a day to devote to this shit.

It's consistent and you should be able to write an entire book in about 6 months by doing this and you would consequently avoid being an unproductive faggot that only writes 4 books in his entire life.

[Anonymous No.15298258]

>>15298242
>you should be able to write an entire book in about 6 months by doing this
I wrote my first book on holiday with my parents when I was 14. 200 pages in six days. I can write a lot faster now and generally finish about 10-15 books a year (plus a metric fuckload of short stories that I can't even count). Since January I've already written four novels.

[Anonymous No.15298282]

>>15298258
you're suffering from graphomania, schizo

[Anonymous No.15298284]

>>15298258
and I bet my they are the 4 horseshits of apocalypse

[Anonymous No.15298288]

>>15298258
Write something now for here.

Have you tried to get any of this published?

[Anonymous No.15298290]

>>15296069
based

[Anonymous No.15298304]

>>15298288
Yes I've published several novels mostly online.

[Anonymous No.15298307]

>>15298258
Based delusional 15-novels-a-year anon

[Anonymous No.15298309]

>>15296069
>semi
no. fully blown.

[Anonymous No.15298339]

>>15298284
>>15298307
I know that I'm definitely above average when it comes to writing output but you guys should seriously be able to write at least 6'000 words an hour at a bare minimum.

[Anonymous No.15298351]

>>15298258
>200 pages in six days
>33 pages a day
Were you writing in font-size 36?

[Anonymous No.15298360]

>>15298339
The most I've been capable of writing was 3k an hour. Definitely hard unless your mind is just full of something or used to just shooting wherever it can.

Would you mind answer this then, are most of your books in the same vein? I.e. genre, theme, archtypes, so on and so forth?

[Anonymous No.15298365]

Stephen king is famous for being able to write entire books from start to finish in a day
Do with that what you will

[Anonymous No.15298366]

>>15298339
again, you confuse quality with quantity. I can write a peepee poopoo novel in a day, but what's the point of that?

[Anonymous No.15298369]

>>15298365
on cocaine that is

[Anonymous No.15298384]

>>15298351
Arial or Times New Roman font size 12

>>15298369
Never tried cocaine but I do usually use amphetamines.

[Anonymous No.15298385]

>>15298366
I find that writing shitty nonconsequential texts comes to me much easier than working on something I actually care about, even when it's just an internet post.

[Anonymous No.15298401]

>>15298384
>Never tried cocaine but I do usually use amphetamines.
and into the trash it goes... all your oeuvre... worthless...

[Anonymous No.15298407]

>>15298401
Don't be naive, anon. Most great writers were/are drugged up one way or another.

[Anonymous No.15298412]

>>15298365
Perhaps proof that ROI is the same from Joyce to King

[Anonymous No.15298415]

>>15298304
>I've published several novels mostly online.
I mean have you been published in a magazine at least, or even better a novel through a non-self published route.

[Anonymous No.15298418]

>>15298339
Yea, just like I can play a game of chess with 30 seconds on the clock. It’s possible, but the final product will be extremely sub-optimal

[Anonymous No.15298419]

>>15298384
>Never tried cocaine but I do usually use amphetamines.
Very short half life.

[Anonymous No.15298426]

>>15298419
>Very short half life.
typical life of every druggie

[Anonymous No.15298470]

Can I ask an important question, actually. How many books do you think your average 'great' author read? I've heard Lovecraft owned over 1k books but might've read more than that.

[Anonymous No.15298491]

>>15298470
Supposedly reading good books makes you a better writer quicker than anything else, even writing. There was a study done by some university on the topic. Can't seem to find it on google rn though.

[Anonymous No.15299095]

>>15296081
Powerful

[Anonymous No.15299280]

>>15296005
Thinks take time, and this is labour like anything else. The more time you invest the greater quality you can achieve.

Imagine a mason labouring thoughtfully over every brick he lay. Or a carpenter carefully putting together a joint. They don't which is why masonry has been reduced to building facades for the carpenter's stick-frame house. Fachwerkhaus, and stone cathedrals take a lot more time and effort which is why they are rarely ever built.

[Anonymous No.15299285]

>>15298491
this is true. i always find my writing imitates the latest author ive read. you can pick up a lot of good habits from them

[Anonymous No.15299309]

>>15298025
>>15298029
I appreciated this combo

[Anonymous No.15299332]

>>15298258
hello james patterson

[Anonymous No.15299368]

>>15296005
pic related is joyce? huge chin

[Anonymous No.15299405]

>>15296005
I've been working on a three book saga for 15 years. I have roughly three books of material and I will probably need at least ten more years to finish. I can't imagine getting it published in my lifetime or even letting anyone read it. It's honest work when you write to please yourself and know it will never be seen by another soul.

[Anonymous No.15299999]

>>15299280
horrible analogy
a brick can not be unlaid, and a building must be built right on a first try
a book can be written amended cut deleted as many times as needed through the magic of drafting and editing, which is the activity of the writer
>Fachwerkhaus
more like Fag house thats where you came from lmao

[Anonymous No.15300096]

>>15296005
>do you think you could write something good if you really toiled over it, worked every day, for year, or would you fail no matter what?
I'd fail if I toiled over it and worked everyday on it. I like tending to the details of my poems my attempts at plays and short stories, but I don't think it would work if I worked for hours in my writing. It'd feel less like something I enjoy, and more like a chore.

[Anonymous No.15300147]

>>15299999
>a brick can not be unlaid, and a building must be built right on a first try

imagine being this fucking retarded lmfaoo

[Anonymous No.15300200]

>>15296005
>Do you think you could write something good if you really toiled over it, worked every day, for years
No. I am a stupid worthless person who has nothing interesting to say or express and even if I had the best craftsmanship in the world my work would still be shit because I am utterly bereft of originality or creativity.

[Anonymous No.15300419]

>>15299999
>>15299999
quints of wisdom

[Anonymous No.15301853]

>>15297338
So what's happening with Joyce scholarship then. Is there a vault somewhere with a dozen incomplete novels that are being held hostage?

[Anonymous No.15302633]

>>15299999
>a brick can not be unlaid
I'm a mason and know that this isn't true.

[Anonymous No.15303715]

>>15296285
Balzac is shit, only like 4 novels of his are read, out of the hundred and something that he wrote, and even those novels are not known for being well written.

[Anonymous No.15303726]

>>15296478
Sounds like you are obsessed with balls and dicks, faggot.

[Anonymous No.15303770]

>>15298102
Ulysss is amazing as an experimental novel, and I don't begrudge Joyce spending decades writing it, but Finnegans Wake was a waste of time, it's a failed experiment, so all the autism over language ultimately means little or nothing, specially considering that no one will be able to fully decipher it ever and will be utterly incomprhensible to readers a hundred years from now.

[Anonymous No.15303791]

>>15296005
Fuck James Joyce

[Anonymous No.15303801]

>>15301853
Not that guy, but we have a LOT of drafts and unfinished things by Joyce.

[Anonymous No.15303832]

>>15303770
I don't think Finnegans Wake is a particularly bad novel, at least not in concept, what's retarded is that he spent so many fucking years writing it, when he could probably have written it in half that or even less and the result would have been the same.

I think Joyce put all his creative power into Ulysses, and Finnegans is an afterthought, a man tired, who isn't at the height of his creative powers anymore and who already said everyhting he had to say in Ulysses. This is true for a lot artists, specially one who soar as high as Joyce did, they are capable of one truly great work and everything else is either buliding up towards or declining.

[Anonymous No.15303950]

>>15296005
My lifestyle, determines my death style
My lifestyle, determines my death style