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15261113 No.15261113 [Reply] [Original]

is free will an illusion?

>> No.15261125

>>15261113
Illusion can only be a projection of real.
Illusion of an apple cannot exist without real apples. Hence, if you claim that free will is an illusion you must provide an example of real free will and its qualitative difference from human illusory free will

>> No.15261129

yes, but its one that cannot be broken, so don't worry about it

>> No.15261130

>>15261113
Yes, but actually no

>> No.15261132

>>15261113
Maybe

>> No.15261155

are my actions done out of my own volition or is it dictated by environmental cues

can there be truly irrational responses those that are not predictions made by my brain from past experiences
where do i find the answer

>> No.15261160

>>15261113
No.

>> No.15261164

>>15261155
You find it when you stop asking that question

>> No.15261182

>>15261113
if free will doesn't exist, illusions don't exist either, so the answer to your question is always no

>> No.15261251

>>15261113
If absolute determinism is a reality, yes.

>> No.15261266

>>15261125
>"X" can not exist in the absence of "y"
Normally I'd agree (at least in some cases), but I don't feel that this applies here? Could you elaborate?

An illusion is simply a misinterpretation of perceived events. Free will included, yes?

>> No.15261313

>>15261266
I mean I think I already did. The concept of free will cannot be born in the universe without the potentiality of free will. If free will is, like you're saying, just an invention of the human mind, the invention itself would be an ironic proof of free will as humans brought into the nature an element previously unknown to the nature.

>> No.15261364

>>15261313
>The concept of free will cannot be born in the universe without the potentiality of free will.
Yes. Humans perceive (emphasis on perceive) that free will is potential. The question is whether or not this perception has merit.

>the invention itself would be an ironic proof of free will as humans brought into the nature an element previously unknown to the nature.
This doesn't track.

>> No.15261540

>>15261313
>>15261182
Could either of you (or anyone for that matter) better/more thoroughly articulate the connection between the potentiality of free will, and the existence of illusion as a human phenomenon?

>> No.15261566
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15261566

>>15261113
Free will isn't even a meaningful concept.

https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Free_will_(solution)

>> No.15261605

>>15261566
I don't think there is a neurological component to a belief in free will. To consider a belief in free will something that must generated neurologically doesn't make a lot of sense. I admit I may be wrong.

>> No.15261633

>>15261113
Maybe! I’m not sure

>> No.15261655

>>15261566
This isn't the brainlet general, try some other board where retards are welcome.

>> No.15261702

>>15261540
the concept of illusion comes from someone getting fooled, if there's no subject nobody can get fooled and there's no such thing as an illusion

>> No.15262054

>>15261702
I understand the concept of illusions. I don't understand what it has to do with free will (or lack there of).

>> No.15262066

>>15262054
OP's question is literally asking if free will is an illusion

>> No.15262135

>>15261702
>>15262066
I'm aware.

I'll clarify.

>if there's no subject nobody can get fooled and there's no such thing as an illusion
I reject this premise. I don't believe the absence of free will implies that human judgement is infallible.

>> No.15262144

>>15261113
Yes. Read U.G Krishnamurti

>> No.15262153

>>15262135
Ok, say humans judgement about the freedom of their own will is faulty. By which metric?

>> No.15262156

It's probably the most fundamental question. When I'm meditating about fear it absolutely feels like I have a choice, like an either/or thing. I'm sure you can be fearless and still not think free will is a reasonable explanation but often I feel these investigations into free will are closely linked to a need of clinging to fear.

Obviously there's no such thing as "clinging to fear" if there is no free will, you're just going through the motions.

When I'm making headway and moving forward it's with the sensation of having a free will

>> No.15262204

If you don't believe in free will immediately donate all your belongings to the poor and kill yourself, or you're a hypocrite. By refusing to commit this act you prove that you have a personal Self interested in self-preservation and prioritization of some choices over others, which wouldn't make a difference to a true determinist.
Do it, bitch. Do it right fucking now I dare you.

>> No.15262214

>>15261113
Free will is a matter of perspective, same as most things are. Whether or not you think we have it depends on how you define a bunch of different conceptss and on the metaphysical beliefs you hold.

>> No.15262230

>>15262153
Any myriad of metrics? Human judgement is faulty regardless of the topic being discussed. Biases, ignorance, a misunderstanding of the concept being discussed, etc.

How do you define free will?

>> No.15262247

>>15262204
Free will has little and less to do with self preservation and everything to do with an individual's (perceived) ability to act at their own discretion.

>> No.15262263

>>15262230
>Biases, ignorance, a misunderstanding of the concept being discussed
All these misjudgements trace back to degress. I may estimate a man to be 6'0 tall while he's actually 5'9 manlet. But the difference between free will and determinism is critical. Humans are either wholly wrong, or wholly right here.

>> No.15262266

>>15261113
No. Logic and rationality are retarded. T=

>> No.15262292

>>15262135
Absence of free will renders the word Judgement meaningless. What can be judged if one will only act as determined by the flow of the universe.

>> No.15262335

>>15261313
By the dog, Socrates, you're right!

>> No.15262380

>>15262263
> Humans are either wholly wrong, or wholly right here
Things very rarely exist on a dichotomous scale. I'm hesitant to accept this.

>>15262292
Hence the word illusion.

Regardless, it's clear I don't know enough about the subject at hand. While it's possible, I doubt much will result from this conversation. Will withhold judgement for now.

Until next time, friends.

>> No.15262436

>>15262292
>>15262380
Samefag

>Hence the word illusion.
Disregard. My autism flared. I still disagree, but that statement means little and less.

>> No.15262469

>>15261113
yes

>> No.15262480

If it's an illusion then everything i'll do is predestined?

>> No.15262487

>>15262480
In theory, yes.

>> No.15262505

>>15262436
Disagree if you'd like. But the entire framework of your disagreement, and the frame you use to carry out every thought and action is based on the existence of free-will. You may say "I am a slave to passions/pressures/universal law", but even that thought betrays the idea that there are modes of action outside those bounds that you could take. Ask yourself, "Is it possible for me to act at all without assuming I have actions to choose from of my own will?"

>> No.15262538

>>15262487
is there a way to escape it or even this is my destiny?

>> No.15262567

>>15262538
Not him, but no. The "I" thought is our baseline, our operating system, the "I" mimics the senses and body. How can the "I"/self be anything other than illusion? You're stuck with it.

>> No.15262581

>>15262567
>even if you change something, it's because you're meant to change it in the first place
this is depressing.

>> No.15262592

>>15262505
>You may say "I am a slave to passions/pressures/universal law"
Yes.

>but even that thought betrays the idea that there are modes of action outside those bounds that you could take
I disagree.

All things either stem from or are caused by physical states. Mind states are simply biological states. Biological states are physical states.

>>15262538
There is nothing to escape. If real, you have free will. Life continues as normal. If not, life continues as normal.

>> No.15262617

>>15262592
sure it continues but you're just forever the slave of previous events.

>> No.15262633

>>15262592
Yes, but you don't talk/act/think like that is true. You don't see yourself as a meat puppet blindly following chemical cues like an ant. You sit and see options then choose. If someone acts unjustly you will blame them, if you mess up you'll feel guilt. You rationalize away your choice after the fact, but that doesn't change the fact that you act as if you are free to choose.

>> No.15262640

>>15262581
The knowledge (thoughts, images, memory) that is imparted on us is not unique, whatever "you" do to add momentum to it is through the help of the knowledge, you are stirring the pot, and that is goint to happen to act sanely in this world created by it. You don't have copyright over the knowledge, it is universal, you are unique as a human, but that knowledge is not unique

>> No.15262648

>>15261113
Yes, because will is an illusion. However, it's a particularly useful illusion towards certain desirable ends.

>> No.15262658

>>15262633
We're discussing the illusion of free will, not how this illusion plays into the human experience. None of what you said runs counter to that.

>> No.15262663

>>15261113
Your free will is determined

>>15261566
Yidkowsky isn't a meaningful person

>> No.15262673

>>15262640
That strangely reminds me of Jungs archetypes. Also, why my memories and thoughts are not unique?

>> No.15262676

>>15262663
Everything about you is determined from birth to death, this is not a rationalization to be lazy though

>> No.15262690

>>15262673
>Also, why my memories and thoughts are not unique
They were passed down to you, thought a gazillion times before

>> No.15262697
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15262697

freedom and will are both illusions.

>> No.15262723

>>15262690
im too much of a brainlet to understand this but how my unique life experience is passed down?

>> No.15262751

>>15261113
If you can weaponize willpower then you've conquered yourself.
It's a powerful tool.

>> No.15262787

>>15262723
cum

>> No.15262816

no, it is a reality. but reality is an illusion.

>> No.15263128

>>15261113
No, but it is a topic.

>> No.15264513

>>15261113
If illusions are powerful enough to produce a behavior or affect it they are real by definition.

>> No.15264591 [DELETED] 

>>15264513
incorrect

>> No.15264614

>>15264513
incorrect

>> No.15264721

>>15261113
no, but literature loves to claim otherwise with prophecies and such

>> No.15264727

>>15264614
incorrect

>> No.15264742

>>15261113
yes but you are only free in your mind

>> No.15265608
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15265608

>>15264727
incorrect

>> No.15265636

What even is "free will"?
The ability to make decisions? We have that.
The ability to make decisions independent from our nature/nurture? Why would you want that, and what would that even look like?

>> No.15265665

>>15265608
pathetic and incorrect

>> No.15265705
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15265705

@15265665
(You)

>> No.15265747

>>15261113
We have free will from our own perspective. It is very relative because the universe is only really deterministic to one who knows all information. It's quite possible free will can exist from one perspective, and not from another.

>> No.15266103

>>15261113
The argument supposes that "I" am somehow separate from my body and mind. The mind-body creates the construct of I, and consciousness is the experience of these things.
Yet I don't think consciousness is a product of the mind-body, and I don't think consciousness is the true self. When I die, this concept of I will go away. The consciousness will remain, but no idea of I will stay because the constructs of my mind that create this idea of "I" are no longer being experienced by this consciousness.

>> No.15266818

>>15262663
>is determined
can also be read as 'is a brute fact' which sways the balance in the other direction.

>> No.15266833

>>15261113
Why not name what is NOT an illusion, in fact, make a positive statement.

>> No.15266871

>>15261113
Doesn't matter either way

>> No.15266945

>>15265705
damn u suck at this site

>> No.15266960

>>15261113
Yes but the level of determinism is too complex to predict because you'd need to be able to process the information of the entirety of reality to predict it or understand it (youd need to be God), and so we may as well consider ourselves to have free will

>> No.15267024

>>15266960
Or better, act as if the worst has always already happened, which is truly emancipatory.
See Ruda's Abolishing Freedom

>> No.15267112

>>15262676
If that was true, the 2nd half of your post is unnecessary because if he was meant to be lazy there wouldn't be any way to change it...

>> No.15267138

>>15265636
You want that because it makes you more than an automaton.

>> No.15267167

>>15267138
>more of an automaton
You either are or aren't.
There's no more or less.

>> No.15267678

>>15267112
unless of course he wasn't, in which case he's predestined to, at some point, become active

>> No.15267707
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15267707

>Why yes free will is an illusion, but in such lies its beauty, for human freedom is like a work of art imagined and hyperreal, and thus free from the binding shackles of material world and physical laws.

>> No.15267754

>>15267707
10/10 dangerously based

>> No.15268051

>>15267754
Hegel, basically

>> No.15268060

>>15267707
based to a degree not once foretold by mortal men

>> No.15268117

>>15268060
wherein ignorance itself attains the status of a proof- BASED!