/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15259365]

I'm trying to find ways to convince my navy boyfriend's family that our relationship is natural and brave.

Any great books on Greek homosexuality in the Iliad (and in ancient Greece in general)?

[Anonymous No.15259383]

>>15259365
Its a big cause of disease (25% Aids) and economic downfall

[Anonymous No.15259403]

>>15259383
I didn't ask for erroneous judgment you imbecile. Homosexuality didn't cause either of those. Blame niggers and filthy plebeians giving all our money away to chinks.

[Anonymous No.15259609]

bump

Need help, gentlemen of /lit/.

[Anonymous No.15259620]

>>15259365
I don't think you're going to find much help in the Greek literature tradition. While Greeks certainly did engage in male/male sexual actions the concept of "homosexuality" as a replacement to ones duty to have a family and children would be very strange to them.

[Anonymous No.15259636]

>>15259403
Literature can't explain away homosexuality, so take your in laws to the zoo or the bar and just be in front of them of they don't accept it then whatever you know.

[Anonymous No.15259643]

>>15259403
You know, I was on board with you until you turned out to be Milo Yiannopolis. Saged and reported.

[Anonymous No.15259644]

>>15259620
And yet modern scholars can reveal what they can. I did some research, but was not able to find anything specific regarding the Iliad and Achilles' male love relationship.

[Anonymous No.15259653]

>>15259643
If anything, letting in shit-tier immigrants has ruined Western civilization far more than anything you could pin on male love.

[Anonymous No.15259664]

Stop being gay

[Anonymous No.15259670]

>>15259653
To clarify, I don't mind letting in middle easterners like Pakistani and Iranians, so long as they practice a more tolerant form of their religion that accepts male love as a normal thing.

[Anonymous No.15259671]

>>15259365
I know this is just a shitpost, but there is no homosexuality in the Iliad.

[Anonymous No.15259683]

>>15259365
Even all the so called 'homosexual' Greek heroes and historical figures all had children. Hmmm.

[Anonymous No.15259685]

>>15259671
Not a shitpost. Also, don't be an intolerant revisionist; Achilles and Patroclus are an embodiment of love greater than you will ever fully experience in your life.

[Anonymous No.15259689]

>>15259643
>>15259403
books about the oddity of seeing your enemies rip each other apart

[Anonymous No.15259711]

>>15259643
milo likes that bbc tho. op is just your generic white gay trash

[Anonymous No.15259716]

>>15259685
laying it on too heavy. if you want to bait, you need to be more subtle. you can't be accusatory until you've got them snared.

[Anonymous No.15259736]

>>15259716
If you're not going to give me a bibliographic pointer, just leave.

[Anonymous No.15259829]

>>15259736
>>15259365
There's literally no homosexuality in the Iliad.
The phenomenon of pederasty became a thing only in Iron Age greece (and even then, it was not widespread nor tolerated as people think. In Athens for example, if you ever bottomed out for someone you lost your citizen rights, even if you were raped as a child. The same thing happened if you raped a free Athenian male. It was okay to rape male slaves, but again, it wasn't as common as you may think), it wasn't present during the bronze age at all.
The relationship between Achilles and Patroclos is what you see in the Iliad, a relationship between best friends.
The reason no one gave you bibliographical informations about it's because quite literally there isn't any: the homosexual relationship between Patroclos and Achilles is an urban legend.

If you and your boyfriend are fags just own it, you don't need to justify it

[Anonymous No.15259830]

>>15259736
I'm sure you could just find some cheesey Illiad themed gay erotica online that would be close enough for you right? The only books I've ever seen really looking into the Trojan War from a historical/archaeology perspective were not exactly focused on the gay sex portion of the historical record. I read The Trojan War: A New History by Barry Strauss 3ish years ago and it had a lot of interesting content but I don't remember Strauss focusing very much on the bravery of Achilles topping Patroclus. That seems more in the realm of porno than literature.

[Anonymous No.15259876]

>>15259365
>I'm trying to find ways to convince my navy boyfriend's family that our relationship is natural and brave.
How about convincing them by example? Will you two stay happy, monogamous and free of disease?

[Anonymous No.15259912]

>>15259876
Happy and free of disease, yes, of course. Only degenerates don't know how to find true companionship and seeking of the good in life, while keeping the body free of pollution.

We disagree with monogamy. Western societies seem to fall apart every time puritan mores crack at the seams. It makes more sense to use the example best used, as far as I can tell, in India, where a core relationship is cultivated, and affairs, permitted or not, are kept quiet, but tolerance of this having an overall beneficial effect.

[Anonymous No.15259927]

>>15259365
Plato's Laws

[Anonymous No.15259928]

Homosexuality, while generally harmless in and of itself, has two main problems that make imprisonment for sodomy crimes necessary.

Firstly, the activities and behavioral patterns typically associated with homosexuality. Rampant degenerate behavior always seems to accompany the gays. From Foucalt's bathhouse haunts in San Francisco to the chemsex parties of the shadier parts of London, the act of male to male penetration includes rampant drug use, partner switching, filth, etc... the hedonic treadmill cannot be outrun. Aids was originally spread due to gay men having a number of sexual encounters that was unheard of in days past; the theorized patient zero of the gay Aids epidemic stated that he would never stop having sex with men even if it killed people.

The second , more important aspect is that of dharma, eternal natural law. Homosexuality is unnatural, and not necessary for either human continuation or as ritual for the gods. Thus it is simply an exercise in pleasure, a fulfillment of desire. This is samsara, and if the eternal soul doesn't learn to detach from desire, there's a very real possibility of ending up in hell -- not necessarily but possibly the christian conception of it, or possibly a time - dilated virtual reality designed to mimic that. Ethical choices matter when the soul is immortal -- the more we can prevent people from experiencing hellish futures due to their poor ethical choices, the better. That is universal morality.

>But hetero couples engage in partner switching, filthy sex, chemical sex, whore-like behavior too

This is correct, and that is also immoral. However, heterosexual sex per se is not immoral, and serves a purpose both as procreation as well as a metaphor and exoteric representation of the creation of the universe. Homosexual relations are not in any way transcendent, thus must not be practiced. Human action must be modeled upon the cosmos.

[Anonymous No.15259954]

>>15259928
The disease spreading has nothing to do with homosexuality itself. It's more of an outgrowth of uneducated people with poor ethics and behavior making the rest of us look bad. It doesn't need to be outlawed as long as there is a serious effort in accompanying education. And AIDS started in Africa, for reasons nobody here can claim to really understand. Again, these things have nothing to do with homosexuality itself.

>homosexuality is unnatural
I disagree. Love is natural, and if two, or slightly more, people, can partake in that, they both embody love, which is beautiful. And between two highly cultured, and highly similar men, there is more respect and beauty occurring than occurs in a heteresexual relationship. There are already more than enough people breeding to continue life, and perhaps too many. So if homosexuality occurs, there's really no harm, and in some cases, it's actually beneficial for curbing unsustainable growth.

[Anonymous No.15259971]

I don't even think a concept of a soul can even be given enough respect so as to warrant a response. All that religious crap is nonsense invented by old dead men to keep people in fear, in line, and in order, but order can be achieved without fear and invisible punishments to keep men directed toward the good.

[Anonymous No.15259981]

>>15259829
Bro there are like 10 disputes throughout The Anabasis over boys but literally 0 over women
This society was gay as fuck. Gays replicate by molesting boys (who grow up to do the same thing), and the Hellenic Greeks molested boy thighs and man thighs like there's no tomorrow. Greek myth was also full to the brim with faggotry, just read The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony by Roberto Calasso.

[Anonymous No.15259989]

>>15259829
>being this deluded

[Anonymous No.15259992]

>>15259981
Yeah, people here are in the know, so I didn't think I needed to bring peripheral evidence up. The core examples are also things like Socrates inviting other men for sex, in Plato's dialogues.

[Anonymous No.15259997]

>>15259954
>The disease spreading has nothing to do with homosexuality itself. It's more of an outgrowth of uneducated people with poor ethics and behavior making the rest of us look bad
No, it has to do with the fact there is no courting between homos. If heterosexual men could fuck women as rampantly they could- our standards are incredibly low and we're perpetually horny. Men have to contend with the standards of women, gays don't.

[Anonymous No.15259998]

Homosexuality did not exist in the ancient world

[Anonymous No.15260000]

>>15259997
they would***

[Anonymous No.15260003]

>>15259997
Yes there are. You don't think homosexuals don't have aesthetic sense and standards? How can you be so wrong?

[Anonymous No.15260006]

>>15259954
Please note that I did not only use the criteria of "natural" for my criticism of homosexuality. It is not only temporally unnatural but an act of pure desire. It is pure desire due to its lack of either 1.) Functional purpose or 2.) Spiritual meaning.

Pure desire is again, immoral, thus homosexuality is at its base an immoral act.

I will not deny that many heterosexual relationships are lacking in respect and beauty, that they are simply marriages of lust, and completely lacking in the transcendent element that marriage should signify. However, heterosexual sex in the context of marriage is an institution of traditional society, both for its procreative purpose and it's symbolic link to the creation mythos and the nature of divinity (God, the gods, the monad, the oversoul etc...). We thus cannot call heterosexual sex per se immoral, as there is a possibility for it to be committed as not simply pure desire -- a designation we cannot apply to homosexuality.

While I don't believe in silly things like conversion therapy, and I can acknowledge that there is a possibility for gay sex to be performed in a loving relationship, this relationship is one of pure desire. There's no way to square this circle from a traditional metaphysical perspective.

I don't actually wish you imprisonment -- that part was a bit of a shitpost. I don't even wish you to stop being gay -- I just don't believe in a justification for it beyond hedonism which I must reject.

[Anonymous No.15260010]

>>15260003
Still me. I don't understand how anyone can be so deluded that they act as though homosexuals are as two dimensional as them.

[Anonymous No.15260012]

>>15260003
stfu, homos will fuck anything. ugly men are perceived as masculine to them

[Anonymous No.15260023]

>>15259992
Mistranslation

[Anonymous No.15260025]

>>15260003
>>15260010
They pick and choose, yes. You're purposefully not addressing my central claim which is that homos fuck way more than heteros and they have way more partners. This is absolutely indisputable, you will never find a statistic that denies this.

[Anonymous No.15260029]

>>15260006
It's not hedonism. Both of us help society. I'm more on research, and he's potentially risking his neck for citizens who might not even respect him. Our nature are moral. If our relationship helps us find meaning and happiness along the way, in each other, and in the world, how can you claim it's immoral?

[Anonymous No.15260035]

>>15260025
Even if that's true for most homos, that's not true for cultured people like me, who are conscientious and careful. Don't misattribute them with us. And even if that's true for them, there can and should be laws and education that fits them into proper protocol.

>>15260023
Prove it or gtfo.

[Anonymous No.15260054]

>>15260035
>there can and should be laws and education that fits them into proper protocol.
You can't make a person Not Horny by educating them. Heteros have a natural limit to fucking- women's standards, under the threat of pregnancy. Gays will never read the same level of temperance naturally or under the thumb of "nudging" institutions.
I find it difficult to care about homosexuality, to be honest. I'm the guy that brought up The Anabasis. I don't think it's a good thing, but I also don't think there's ever been a society where it didn't occur in one way or another.

[Anonymous No.15260079]

>>15260054
If a person had such an uncontrollable desire that contributes to rampant disease and suffering, they should be punished and isolated, and be subject to medical treatment to control their desire. A less sinister medication for this would be a tea or botanical extract that inhibits libido.

[Anonymous No.15260091]

>>15260029
>If our relationship helps us find meaning and happiness along the way, in each other, and in the world, how can you claim it's immoral?
Happiness is not relevant to morality. "Meaning" is not relevant to morality. The form of morality you are arguing with is completely and totally indifferent to your happiness and sense of meaning. You will get nowhere with these nonsensical solipsistic statements.
>>15259954
The same is true here.
>Love is natural
What do you mean by love? If you're speaking of the 19th century construct of romantic love, then your claim is doubtful. Even if that were true, that would tell us nothing about whether or not allowing "love" to guide our actions is correct, for the simple reason that something being natural does not necessarily mean that it is moral.
>and if two, or slightly more, people, can partake in that, they both embody love
What the hell is this supposed to mean? It's not even an argument.
>which is beautiful
I disagree. Even if you were right, that would mean nothing, because morality is not synonymous with beauty.
>And between two highly cultured, and highly similar men, there is more respect and beauty occurring than occurs in a heteresexual relationship.
This claim is both unverifiable and irrelevant.
>There are already more than enough people breeding to continue life, and perhaps too many.
I don't know why you believe this, but it's certainly not true of America.
>So if homosexuality occurs, there's really no harm
No one has ever argued that homosexuality is harmful because it does not result in new life.
>and in some cases, it's actually beneficial for curbing unsustainable growth.
There is such a thing as a replacement birth rate. Procreation does not necessarily entail growth.
>>15259971
>All that religious crap is nonsense invented by old dead men to keep people in fear, in line, and in order,
lolk
>but order can be achieved without fear and invisible punishments to keep men directed toward the good.
You want to use terms and concepts that originate in a tradition created and maintained by "old dead men," but you want to reject not only its basic axioms, but any conclusions deriving from them that you don't like. You want to maintain a distorted version of the telos and cut out everything else. Is this the best that the homosexual intellectual can manage?

[Anonymous No.15260102]

OP is some coping moralfag looking for validation.

[Anonymous No.15260111]

>>15259365
Greek Homosexuality is an academic book on the subject. Some of the partygoers in Plato's Symposium also give pro-gay speeches.

[Anonymous No.15260121]

>No one has ever argued that homosexuality is harmful because it does not result in new life.
Okay, now I know you're trying to troll me. Just fuck off so the thread stays ready for an actual rec.

>you want to reject not only its basic axioms, but any conclusions deriving from them that you don't like.
They weren't able to fathom the complexities of cultural innovations that only modern liberties were able to provide. They're respectable, but only to the limited degree where they're right. They're outdated, and need to be revised where necessary.

[Anonymous No.15260127]

>>15260111
Thank you. I've read Plato, but ironically not Symposium yet, so I'll add it to the list.

[Anonymous No.15260135]

>>15260127
Not that anon but I have a big chart of ancient homo books thats work in progress I might post it

[Anonymous No.15260146]

>>15260121
>Okay, now I know you're trying to troll me. Just fuck off so the thread stays ready for an actual rec.
No. Try reading what people say.
>They weren't able to fathom the complexities of cultural innovations that only modern liberties were able to provide
This is gibberish. What does their inability to understand something that did not exist in their time have to do with anything?
>They're outdated
Repeating something over and over again with no argument does not make you right.
>and need to be revised where necessary.
Why is it necessary to revise their views on sodomy? You have yet to make even a single decent argument for this in this thread.

[Anonymous No.15260155]

>>15260146
You're the one not reading, hypocrite.

It creates intolerance and needless suffering for moral people who are only discriminated against because they're different. I shouldn't even have to say this.

[Anonymous No.15260167]

>>15260127
Symposium is actually a great work. Kind of a crowning achievement.

[Anonymous No.15260184]

>>15260155
>It creates intolerance
So? Why tolerate the immoral?
>and needless suffering
As far as they're concerned, the "suffering" is necessary.
>who are only discriminated against because they're different.
There are a number of issues here.
1. The homosexual does not have to act on his urges. Sodomy is a voluntary act, and the man who does not engage in it is not a sodomite, and therefore not immoral, regardless of his urges.
2. There is a difference between engaging in an act that one knows to be immoral and acknowledging its immorality and attempting to disguise that act as moral. The latter, not the former, is met with universal condemnation.
3. Nobody calls sodomites immoral because they are different. The man who studies Ancient Greek in this day is technically different, but none would call him immoral. Sodomites are called immoral because they are sodomites.
4. Discrimination as a social issue is, I think, rather different from what we are discussing here. Nobody in this thread said that it's moral to discriminate against sodomites. There is no logical connection between calling sodomites immoral and discriminating against them, either.

[Anonymous No.15260204]

>>15259365
Even faggots hate being faggots. Take a look at Wilde, Waugh, or Proust for proof

[Anonymous No.15260221]

>>15260204
Any self hate can only come from mores and repression.

>>15260184
Stop shitting up my thread with your religious crap masking itself as logic. Can you even hear yourself when you say >There is no logical connection between calling sodomites immoral and discriminating against them, either.
How can you say something like this and not establish the simple connection, that yes, there's no logic to the behavior.

I saw mods ban people for saying nigger in a completely disrespectful way, and not just humorously like me, so hopefully you get banned by my report.

[Anonymous No.15260222]

>>15259383
I thought it was the Jews causing all the world's problems or whatever.

[Anonymous No.15260239]

>>15260221
>Stop shitting up my thread with your religious crap masking itself as logic.
Not a single statement that I have made is religious, and you have already stopped making arguments. So much for the intellectual sodomite.
>How can you say something like this and not establish the simple connection, that yes, there's no logic to the behavior.
Discrimination as a social issue is not what we're talking about here. I will concede that there is a difference between believing that someone is immoral and going out of one's way make their life miserable.
>I saw mods ban people for saying nigger in a completely disrespectful way, and not just humorously like me, so hopefully you get banned by my report.
Surely you jest, my friend.

[Anonymous No.15260249]

>>15260239
Okay, maybe you aren't the guy who was posting about telos or whatever the fuck, but I'm not going to respond to people who cling onto medieval myths, because everything they offer is just built on that.

I'm tired right now and will respond to whatever reasoned points were made when I'm up.

[Anonymous No.15260265]

>>15260249
I am him. You're the one who started talking about "the good," which is a teleological concept with origins in Aristotelian ethics. There is nothing religious about that.

[Anonymous No.15260612]

The way to suppress homosexual promiscuity and disease spread is to assimilate the sexual minority into mainstream society and promote monogamy as a viable option for the consistent fraction of the population who are same-sex attracted. There will be a lag between assimilation of homosexuals into the mainstream and resultant cultural shift towards increased monogamy. While a tiny minority of the gay minority have a much higher partner count than average due to a number of influences, including the male sex drive, they're not representative of all or even most gays.
Sodomite is also a ridiculous term to be using

Also maybe a tasteful movie would be easier than a book OP

[Anonymous No.15260639]

>>15260612
>A tiny minority
lol.
>Sodomite is also a ridiculous term to be using
I wouldn't say so. The term is useful for distinguishing a particular act from a form of attraction.

[Anonymous No.15260668]

>>15259403
based

[Anonymous No.15260799]

>>15259620
What's wrong with not having a family and children?

[Anonymous No.15260936]

>>15260639
>lol.
lol
What is sodomy?

[Anonymous No.15260956]

>>15259928
I am curious as to why desire should be counted immoral - certainly some desires, like the desire for enlightenment, are to be counted good. Or is sexual desire uniquely evil? If so, why?
>This is samsara, and if the eternal soul doesn't learn to detach from desire, there's a very real possibility of ending up in hell -- not necessarily but possibly the christian conception of it, or possibly a time - dilated virtual reality designed to mimic that. Ethical choices matter when the soul is immortal
That there is a Hell or an immortal soul would be counted a fable by most moderns - can you demonstrate that these really exist? Or wherefrom have you derived these truths?
>the more we can prevent people from experiencing hellish futures due to their poor ethical choices, the better.
How does this follow?
>>15259928
>Human action must be modeled upon the cosmos.
Why? It appears to me, that all human behavior, being part of Creation, is already inherently modeled upon her laws. To suppose that there are behaviors outside nature seems illogical.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15260966]

>>15259928
there you go again with your trite bullshit, sex between two consenting adults is always moral you dipshit. No amount of wall of texts will stop fags from having sex, no matter how hard you sperg out, people will still have sex. There's nothing you can do about it, you'd better get used to it.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15260982]

>>15260184
and for the record, let me say it again: christian genocide is fully justified by the christian faith. If one day someone in charge woke up and decided to gas christians, they would be glad of getting killed like the cucks they are because they'll get a free trip to heaven. Imagine unironically supporting a self-destructive faith, imagine being this fucked up in the head.

[Anonymous No.15260989]

>>15260966
>tripfag
>defends homos
>is probably also a homo
kys

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15260995]

>>15260989
we're here to stay, suck it christcuck.

[Anonymous No.15261010]

>>15260995
>christcuck
everyone hates fags, even non-abrahamics like zoroastrians and Norse pagans. you're considered filth in every culture in the world
>inb4 muuuh greeks

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261011]

>>15261010
and let them seethe.

[Anonymous No.15261013]

>>15261011
>let me post muh fag cartoons, that'll show him
remember this post when you're on your death bed with aids and a gaping asshole.

[Anonymous No.15261018]

>>15261013
>pedo priests ok
>fags not ok
christcuck logic

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261020]

>>15261013
I'm a virgin, keep coping.

[Anonymous No.15261023]

>>15261010
Zoroastrians are so closely related to Abrahamics that it might be judicious to consider them as one family
As for Norse pagans, this is more probably explained as the ignorance of an unlearned and barbaric nation

[Anonymous No.15261027]

>>15259365
how to commit suicide for dummies x2

[Anonymous No.15261028]

>>15261013
Even those retards who contract HIV nowadays don't develop AIDS

[Anonymous No.15261034]

>>15261023
> ignorance
its called being based. Odin doesn't accept fags

[Anonymous No.15261045]

>>15261028
>>15261018
>>15261020
>all these triggered seething fags
shut up, filth, you sissy bitches

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261119]

>>15261045
seethe more ass clown we're here to poke fun at you

[Anonymous No.15261139]

>>15261045
>talking to gay men online
kinda gay dude

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261147]

here we go lads

[Anonymous No.15261151]

>>15261147
>fag has zero self awareness
>he took the time to make that gay png
holy cringe

[Anonymous No.15261158]

>>15261147
as long as gay faggots get the rope too I'm OK with that
all organized religious faggots should die anyway

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261162]

>>15261151
since when did christucks have self-awareness?

[Anonymous No.15261205]

>>15260936
In the definition that has been used in the law and in our shared tradition, sodomy refers to a man engaging in anal sex with another man. The point is that lying with another man is immoral. Having lustful feelings for another man is not.
>>15260966
>sex between two consenting adults is always moral you dipshit
Why?
> No amount of wall of texts will stop fags from having sex, no matter how hard you sperg out, people will still have sex. There's nothing you can do about it, you'd better get used to it.
lolk
>>15260982
okay bro

[Anonymous No.15261217]

>>15261205
because it doesn't violate any norms, doesn't kill anyone and doesn't hurt anyone. Your jewish laws aren't an argument.

[Anonymous No.15261288]

>>15261217
>because it doesn't violate any norms
Obviously if we're having this argument, there are norms that it violates.
Furthermore, norms are not an argument. Something can not violate the norms of a given society and still be immoral.
>doesn't kill anyone
Irrelevant.
>and doesn't hurt anyone
Irrelevant.
>Your jewish laws aren't an argument
I didn't know that Socrates was a Jew.

[Anonymous No.15261293]

>>15261288
Socrates was never against homosexuality as he never wrote anything down you fucking illiterate retard.

[Anonymous No.15261319]

>>15261147
Christians want to save other people as well, not just themselves.

[Anonymous No.15261320]

>>15261288
Whence do you derive its immorality? If from criteria enumerated in >>15259928
, please consider the objections presented in >>15260956

[Anonymous No.15261329]

>>15261320
he draws it from his caveman mentality and kikeshit babble that he feeds on. thanks god neanderthals like him are getting bashed more and more by the liberal media.

[Anonymous No.15261340]

>>15261023
>As for Norse pagans, this is more probably explained as the ignorance of an unlearned and barbaric nation

Are you seriously claiming that aids, anal tearing, eating da poopoo is somehow civilized, but starting a family in order to raise a child is not?

Almost every civilization and nation on earth had roughtly the same opinion on homosexuality, it was either seen as a sin that requires penance too it being the cause of the death penalty.

Even modern society outside of far left strongholds see homosexuality as disgusting.

[Anonymous No.15261344]

>>15261205
Sodomy doesn't exclusively refer to homosexual anal sex, it also encompasses both gay and straight oral sex, bestiality, etc.
You just enjoy using it as a slur against gay men while ignoring ubiquitous heterosexual non-procreative sex.

[Anonymous No.15261347]

>>15261340
>>15261344
T. Retards who have never read the greeks

[Anonymous No.15261350]

>>15260222
>Implying gays and jews are mutually exclusive
also witnessed

[Anonymous No.15261351]

>>15261347
>T. Retards who have never read the greeks
Go ahead, please explain where I am wrong.

[Anonymous No.15261353]

>>15259365
they can read all plato's works but the only thing that will truly convince them is seeing how happy he is with you. never argue with, never make them feel stupid or make it an actual discussion. i've seen hearts change, and it was never because of statistics or arguments.

[Anonymous No.15261361]

>>15261353
The moment you join the homosexual lifestyle, two things happen, both of you are effiminate bitches and so will bitch to each other constantly and you will immediately bring in other sexual partners, because love is only possible between man and wife for pure biological and hormonal reasons.

Homosexuality is just a fetish, like all sex outside of a relationship between a man and woman is just fetish.

[Anonymous No.15261369]

>>15261353
> Muh happiness.
Diet already, you stupid vegetable.

[Anonymous No.15261371]

>>15261010
>everyone
>except from that one example I'm willfully ignoring
>also Somerians and Babylonians

[Anonymous No.15261378]

>>15261340
>Are you seriously claiming that aids, anal tearing, eating da poopoo is somehow civilized, but starting a family in order to raise a child is not?
Every dumb animal only screws. But we reasoning men
Have this over other animals,
We have discovered butt-fucking. But those who conquer women,
They have nothing over dumb animals.
—Strato, 2nd century BC

[Anonymous No.15261379]

>>15261353
Being gay literally causes bacterial and viral disease (25% AIDS, imagine other countries) and they get around it by insane healthcare taxes. Literally they depend on the existence of a totalitarian government.

[Anonymous No.15261397]

>>15261361
how does one become so confident and proud? please explain this to me. where are all of these broad claims based on?

[Anonymous No.15261398]

>>15261378
So, you think becoming less then animals is somehow good?

Because what elevates us about animals is not sticking peepee into poopoo, but romantic love between a man and a woman.

I mean, give a serious argument, why putting your dick in the hole that shit comes from, somehow elevates a person?

Hetrosexuals bond and build a family, just the act of taking someone from behind prevents you from looking them in the eyes, which adds another layer to the depravity.

[Anonymous No.15261401]

>>15261378
Its a cycle of abuse. People back then reached puberty at 15-18, so they were corrupted by elders when they knew nothing. Also the Greek empire's wealth allowed to the most defective sick people to survive infancy

[Anonymous No.15261404]

>>15261351
Bisexuality was commonplace in the greek society. If you claim otherwise you're coping with historical revisionism.

[Anonymous No.15261407]

>>15261397
>how does one become so confident and proud? please explain this to me. where are all of these broad claims based on?
Thats not an arguments, thats just being bitchy, stop talking like a woman and talk like a man, is there anything wrong I said?

[Anonymous No.15261410]

>>15261379
but the US doesn't have healthcare, and they still survive. so maybe they don't actually depend on you?

[Anonymous No.15261412]

>>15261404
>Bisexuality was commonplace in the greek society. If you claim otherwise you're coping with historical revisionism.
It has been common in all societies since the stone age. We havent seen a society in Europe that really attempts to stamp out sexual degeneracy.

Both the Pagan, Christian and Enlightenment where more tolerant then intolerant to these vices.

[Anonymous No.15261417]

>>15261378
>discovered butt-fucking
Wow, someone give this man a Nobel Prize!

[Anonymous No.15261418]

>>15261407
you make stuff up because you're a retard who knows nothing about the world and spends more time in front of the computer than talking to actual people.

[Anonymous No.15261420]

>>15259365
greeks didn't have homosexuality, they had masculinity and effeminity, if you get fucked in the ass you are a faggot and Greeks would have recognized you as such, they would hate you. this meme that greeks always tolerated homosexuality is not true.

[Anonymous No.15261432]

>>15261418
>you make stuff up because you're a retard who knows nothing about the world and spends more time in front of the computer than talking to actual people.
More bitchiness, even less arguments.

[Anonymous No.15261437]

>>15261410
They do for AIDS research its heavily subsidized medicine

[Anonymous No.15261439]

>>15261293
>Never wrote anything down, therefore he never held attitudes I disagree with
Okay mate.
>>15261320
Aristotelian ethics.
>>15261329
lol
>>15261344
No it does not. Why are you lying?
>>15261353
Reading Plato and Aristotle would only convince them that they're right. Homosexuality did not even exist as a concept until the 20th century, but the idea that the existence of this reified concept, let alone its acceptance, is at all good for society is not something one could possibly justify on the basis of their texts.
>>15261404
Bisexuality is a 20th century concept. No such concept existed then. Those "bisexuals" all had families and children.
>>15261420
This.

[Anonymous No.15261442]

>>15261412
>Christian and Enlightenment where more tolerant then intolerant to these vices.
Yeah by sentencing them to death, go fuck yourself.
>inb4 it wasn't that bad only X people died!
That doesn't invalidate shit, neck yourself christcuck apologist.

[Anonymous No.15261497]

>>15261439
>Aristotelian ethics
I can't recall the subject being discussed at all in the Nicomachean ethics - where does he speak on it? And what is his disapproval founded upon?

[Anonymous No.15261545]

>>15261412
>>15261442
Actually bros Christians only started executing homos en masse around the Renaissance/Early Modern era. In early Christian Europe it was subject to the same relatively light penances as fornication.

[Anonymous No.15261554]

>>15261439
>No it does not. Why are you lying?
Uh, anon. Christians considered heterosexual oral sex sodomitical. Look it up.
>Homosexuality did not even exist as a concept until the 20th century
Homosexuality as a medical term and identity is new. The concept of people having a dominant sexual preference is ancient. Aristophanes fucking offers a mythological explanation for it in the Symposium.

[Anonymous No.15261685]

>>15261398
I always fuck missionary/ cowboy with eye contact and kiss during sex

[Anonymous No.15261756]

>>15259365
There is no homosexuality in the Iliad you retard. That “interpretation” was invented by faggots like you to serve your lgbtqrstuvwxy&z historical revisionist agenda. Why dont you just kill yourself?

[Anonymous No.15261759]

>>15259644
Because it’s NOT FUCKING TRUE.

[Anonymous No.15261765]

>>15259365
there is literally the book by Kenneth Dover title Greek HOmosexuality, but I don't think thats going to convince any uptight parents
desu greeks were less into homsexualiy than they were into pederasty, sorry

[Anonymous No.15261778]

>>15259829
>this much of a cope
please read Aeschines, Against TImarchos, it directly addresses the knowledge of man/boy love between Achilles and Patroclos
shit,read SOMETHING before you start spouting off shit like this lol

[Anonymous No.15261784]

>>15261756
see>>15261778

god damn, you guys are effectively illiterate when it comes to greek shit

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261797]

>>15261784
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilleis_(trilogy)
next thing you're gonna say is this is lgbtq propaganda like the fucking dense revisionist you are.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261809]

>>15261797
>Aeschylus, in his lost tragedy The Myrmidons (5th century BC), assigned Achilles the role of erastes or protector, (since he had avenged his lover’s death, even though the gods told him it would cost him his own life), and assigned Patroclus the roles of eromenos. Achilles publicly laments Patroclus’ death, addressing the corpse and criticizing him for letting himself be killed. In a surviving fragment of the play, Achilles speaks of “the reverent company” of Patroclus’ thighs and how Patroclus was “ungrateful for many kisses.
holy shit can you even cope this hard?

[Anonymous No.15261816]

>>15259609
Here you go, faggot.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261822]

>>15261816
>2 dialogues out of 20+ criticize homosexuality
>HURRRRR DA PLATO BE DUNKIN ON DA QUEERS

[Anonymous No.15261830]

>>15261822
Yes.

[Anonymous No.15261831]

>>15261797
>wikipedia
>namefag
double yikes desu

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261843]

>>15261830
Nah, keep coping though.
>>15261831
they literally quoted a fucking verse from the god damn play for fucks sake you are retarded

[Anonymous No.15261846]

>>15260799
Greeks were duty bound to continue their family lines. Read Coulanges.

This is a normal attitude among cultures that aren’t on the verge of implosion.

[Anonymous No.15261850]

you can't claim to be /lit/ and not have read the authoritative text on the subject

[Anonymous No.15261852]

>>15261843
>Nah, keep coping though.
>nuh uh
Peabrain intellect. Although, you being a tripfag and actual fag made that obvious from the start.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261858]

>>15261852
I'm not the one who pretends to read shit whilst pasting the same strawman pic all the time homosexuality is mentioned. You've never read Plato.

[Anonymous No.15261866]

>>15261816
>go to gymnasium
>it's just a bunch of old guys trying to fuck 15 year old boys (γυμναζεσθαι (gymnazesthai)= to be naked)
>this is getting out of hand
>so much boy-fucking, people can't get enough
>sit down to explain
>"listen guys, we need to cool it on all the boy-fucking, it's much more natural for men and women to screw, we can't just succumb to our raging lust for tender boy-thighs!"
>~2500 years laters
>some fggot on the internet:
>"muh pure heterosexual greeks" "see muh plato"

pottery. black figure.

[Anonymous No.15261871]

>>15261756
The interpretation was begun by the Greeks

[Anonymous No.15261875]

>>15261843
wow what a fucking imp you are
read Greek Homosexuality by Dover; it's a much more expansive take than a fucking wiki article and a quote of one play

[Anonymous No.15261878]

>>15261866
>the black figure on a pottery case invalidates platon

[Anonymous No.15261882]

>Greek homosexuality is a my-

[Anonymous No.15261885]

>>15261850
literally just finished, was great, referencing it's argument here:>>15261875


I'd also recomend Law, Society and Sexuality: The Enforcement of Morals in Classical Greece,

just finished, really really great read

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261891]

>>15261875
i know it can't be compared to modern homosexuality, nevertheless it was a form of homosexuality and it wasn't frowned upon unless the roles were switched.

[Anonymous No.15261893]

>>15261878
>can't get a joke
jfc what are you talking about lol

[Anonymous No.15261898]

>>15259365
Show them this.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3008-homosexuality-is-biological-suggests-gay-sheep-study/

However if you practice anal sex then you're doing it unnaturally and shame on you both.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261900]

>>15261882
>a ms paint infograph invalidates centuries of studies

[Anonymous No.15261907]

>>15261891
>it can't be compared to modern homosexuality
and here comes the cop-out
never EVER said that-- at least point me to the post where I did ifthat's your stupid deal

[Anonymous No.15261911]

>>15261900
Where are these centuries of studies saying that the Greeks are not gay?

[Anonymous No.15261914]

>>15259365
Pic related is good for Plato. The foundation of Western Philosophy is Socrates sweating over a twinks hot-abs.

For more academic work:
- 'Studies in Manliness and Courage in Classical Antiquity' by Ralph M. Rosen and Ineke Sluiter
- 'Sex in the Ancient World From A to Z' by John G. Younger.

[Anonymous No.15261917]

>>15259912
>We disagree with monogamy
I disagree with your existence.

[Anonymous No.15261928]

>>15261797
>>15261809
is this nigga srs?

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261945]

>>15261907
The ancient greek community had active and passive roles, even though homosexuality was tolerated somehow it wasn't tolerated when the roles were switched and the older man took the passive role.
>>15261911
>Where are these centuries of studies saying that the Greeks are not gay?
What? You posted a infograph which discredits homosexuality and says that it was forbidden in ancient greece when it clearly wasn't.

[Anonymous No.15261954]

>>15261882
This is wrong but the philosophers had a strong tradition of being opposed to sodomy.
>Plythagoras
Hated beans. Most scholars agree that beans was slang term for homosexuals.
>Platon
Most obviously in Laws but Socrates BTFO's cumbrains in some other dialogues.

[Anonymous No.15261957]

>>15261945
>The ancient greek community
anon, I'm telling you, I am aware, I never contested this...

>>15261797
>>15261809
you're literally arguing with yourself here, maybe you should go take a rest or something...

[Anonymous No.15261961]

>>15261954
>Socrates BTFO's cumbrains
do you ever wonder why nobody takes you seriously, anon?

[Anonymous No.15261962]

>>15261778
Homer didn't establish that they were lovers, that was just the addition of Plato/Aeschines and other people that you obviously pulled off of a wikipedia list because I searched up "Achilles and Patroclus" as well. Also, why does it matter if Greeks were homos? Why should we also be homos, because the Greeks were homos?

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261967]

>>15261957
>you're literally arguing with yourself here,
by providing evidence and quotes from the ancient world that prove homosexuality isn't a fucking leftist invention?

[Anonymous No.15261968]

>>15261945
>What? You posted a infograph which discredits homosexuality and says that it was forbidden in ancient greece when it clearly wasn't.
retard. it's an image discrediting another image which says that.

[Anonymous No.15261970]

>>15261954
>Most scholars agree that beans was slang term for homosexuals
Citation needed.

[Anonymous No.15261975]

>>15261954
>Most scholars agree that beans was slang term for homosexuals
citation thoroughly needed

I've always heard that it was thought that they were in some sense containing a soul, s pythagoras was an avid vegetarian already

[Anonymous No.15261978]

>>15261961
You're the one failing to make any argument or retort here.

[Anonymous No.15261980]

>>15261962
>Why should we also be homos, because the Greeks were homos?
Yes.

[Anonymous No.15261987]

>>15261962
here, try Perseus:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0002%3Aspeech%3D1%3Asection%3D141

>Also, why does it matter if Greeks were homos? Why should we also be homos, because the Greeks were homos?
didn't say; don't think this; ;iterally just talking about my hellenic boys in a thread on 4chan

[Anonymous No.15261992]

>>15261967
I uh... you lost me...
I really don't know which side you're even arguing for, but your sourcing is so mundane I don't really give a damn.
take care I suppose

[Anonymous No.15261994]

>>15261846
On the verge is pretty optimistic at this point.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15261998]

>>15261968
>the downfall of spartan generals
where does this happen? this seems some ridiculous claim that the author pulled out of his ass. This infograph is full of shit anyway, and makes the sacred band of thebes sound way more gay when in truth they were married men with male lovers.

[Anonymous No.15262001]

>>15261962
>duh, I searched on GOOGLE, ever heard of it?
fucking god damn, this is a real person
can you READ Greek Homosexuality? it's been rec'd like five times now, you'd really be more prepared for the discussion if you weren't searching shit on the internet rn

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15262005]

>>15261992
Maybe you're just another anon and i thought you were the same guy who posted the plato pic

[Anonymous No.15262012]

>>15261998
"The downfall of Spartan generals" means specific incidents about specific people, which may or may not be true, recounted by Xenophon.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15262039]

>>15262012
Yes, Xenophon is should be taken with a grain of salt as he had obvious political biases.

[Anonymous No.15262051]

>>15261797
>>15261809
Written 800 years afther the Siege of Troy, and a literal fanfiction

[Anonymous No.15262058]

OP, the greeks were not into homosexual love, they were into getting jerked off by the sweaty, glistening thigh of some well-to-do 15 year old boy. they liked scrawling on walls while they presumably rubbed their genitals-- "beautiful boy," 'the boy is SO beautiful' or any particularly vulgar line of theognis would do. these perverted fucks would linger around gymnasiums where boys were all naked and playing, and they'd harrass them and try to grab their dainty penises. sometimes they'd be giving instructions to some boys seated in the dirt, then they'd have them run off, and then a bunch of old pervs would sit around looking at the imprint of ass cheeks and tiny scrotum in the sand and just drool over it, going on and on about their sexy little thighs. sometimes these creeps would show up with chickens and rabbits and shit to win over these little teases-- they even go to their fucking parents, ask them for the okay to stick it to their kids. the parents are typically like "yeah whatever, just keep him out of our hair"
can you imagine? think of that much thender boy ass being available-- what are they sUPPOSED TO DO? it's not their fault anon, you can't just go [reying on young women like Odysseus, women are bitches and they're fathers will fucking kill you. just stick to the eromenoi, they like it anyways, litte sluts.
what was the question?

[Anonymous No.15262060]

>>15262039
>Yes, Xenophon is should be taken with a grain of salt as he had obvious political biases.

[Harmodius !HeLLasW2K. No.15262062]

>>15262051
And yet it still proves homosexuality existed in ancient times and wasn't a leftist psyop. You've got no arguments.
>>15262060
Not an argument.

[Anonymous No.15262069]

>>15262060
not that anon but wasn't Xenophon out on mercenary duty in Persia when the Thirty was disestablished and Socrates was executed? I'm pretty sure he spent the rest of his life either in Sparta or Corinth after that, so what's the confusion here?

[Anonymous No.15262076]

>>15262062
Nobody ever said that sex between two men never happened
The argument of the topic is the homosexual relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. That's literally a fanfiction, it's not present in the Iliad
Acheans =/= Classical Greeks

[σκυτιον No.15262090]

>>15262076
this is such an intentionally limiting take:

you're telling me that the ancestors of civilization X, who left super important lyrical poetry focusing on the rage of one 'best friend' after losing his own 'best friend' in battle-- rage that causes him to fight to his own death-- mean nothing in the light of the facts that (1) civilization X would go on to openly equate such similar friendships as sexual and (2) groups like the sacred band many years later would LITERALLY BE homosexual partners who would fight to the death in the name of their love-- an event we can corroborate with archaeology

you really have to force yourself NOT to connect dots to believe this

[Anonymous No.15262096]

>>15262058
Your brain on Hellenism and ancestor worship

[Anonymous No.15262103]

>>15262090
The civilization of the Iliad is civilization X, the civilization of the sacred band of thebes is civilization Y
The Achean world is radically different from the Hellenic world, linguistically, culturally, and to some degrees even genetically

[σκυτιον No.15262119]

>>15262096
I dare you to disprove a single thing mentioned there--
for starters google "intercrural intercourse" and tell me what you find ;)

>>15262103
well I disagree vehemently-- we're talking about civ Y upholding the same poetry coming from X at least, strong cultural values shared there. similarly the fact that Y shares some interpretation of homsexuality with civ Z (classical Athens) but still has significant differences implies more overlap in the direction of homosexuality throughout the societirs than 1 being sort of comically mistaken as engaing when it was actually just really talking about the friendship of two dudes.

[Anonymous No.15262123]

>>15259365
Ignore the spooks ITT. Also you're not going to convince dumb rednecks of anything

>Natural
Yes, but also meaningless because any recurrent set of animal behaviors is natural
>brave
Cringe

[Anonymous No.15262125]

>>15262119
>>15262103
None of these texts that you guys are talking about refer to homosexuality, because there is no concept of exclusive attraction to and sexual relations with men. Those "homosexuals" were married to women and had families.

[Anonymous No.15262154]

>>15262119
Society changes a lot in 50 years, never mind what happens in 700 years
Just to give you a comparison, take Germany in 600 AD, then take Germany in 1300 AD, then take Germany now
The difference is that society changed even more from the Iliad (that really happened) to classical greece
Just to give you an example, women in Mycenean societies had a lot of freedom compared to Classical greece
According to your opinion just because we still read Dante today, Dante shared our worldview

[σκυτιον No.15262189]

>>15262125
(1) you do not need exclusive male attraction and commitment to have homo (same) sexuality (have it. just kidding) I think the inherent differences between classical and modern homosexuality have been addressed in this thread sufficiently...

(2) having a wife and children does not necesarily preclude comitment, heterosexuality, etc.

>>15262154
youre disregarding the accelerative (not a landfag) nature of technological advancement-- the classic example is that cleopatra was farther from the first pharaohs then we still are from here, but there was still monolithic leadership of some form. once tech advancement and other similaer things kick in youre in for some srs shit bb

also the poetry and overtones of philo being so prominent between men, whatever their meaning, kind of challeneges this angle-- we've alreadyd discussed how similar they are enough to focus on one possibly dual-natured, possibly not, issue. the differences are true but they aren't really a sufficient negation of the similarities

[Anonymous No.15262219]

>>15262189
>the classic example is that cleopatra was farther from the first pharaohs then we still are from here, but there was still monolithic leadership of some form. once tech advancement and other similaer things kick in youre in for some srs shit bb
The ancient greeks had a similar level of technological advacencements to 1800 ads europe. They simply didn't use the technology in the same way we did tue to cultural reasons. They had steam engines, railroads, automas etc

>also the poetry and overtones of philo being so prominent between men, whatever their meaning, kind of challeneges this angle-- we've alreadyd discussed how similar they are enough to focus on one possibly dual-natured, possibly not, issue. the differences are true but they aren't really a sufficient negation of the similarities
There are more differences than similarities. The bronze age world was completely different

[σκυτιον No.15262234]

>>15262219
>They had steam engines, railroads, automas etc
well then...
...source?
>There are more differences than similarities
depends entirely on how one defines a similarity or a difference

[Anonymous No.15262240]

>>15262189
I think the other anon is quite correct here. It is impossible to say for sure whether or not Achilles and Patroclus relationship "is really", textually, homoerotic. We can only say that that is how later Greeks interpreted it. The Homeric "Greek Dark Ages" were very different, socially and politically, to Classical Greece. Part of the interesting thing about Greek city state culture is how they tried to reconcile the fact that their foundational text (as a civilised people) espoused the morality of a warrior culture.

[σκυτιον No.15262271]

>>15262240
the interesting thing about texts like Aeschines is he tries to clarify Achilles and Patroclus relationship for the audience, implying they already believed it was erotic
recours to either "they were similar because X similarities exist" or "they were different because X differences exist" is simply not productive, but of course it's the trap you get caught in with this shit.

[Anonymous No.15262322]

>>15259365
>natural
OK I don't have problem with it if you have a personality outside of being gay. 90% of gay people I met all they talk about is how gay they are 24/7 and is why no one but other gay people like them.
>brave
lol there is nothing brave about getting assfucked

[Anonymous No.15262377]

>>15259912
>Tolerance of betraying someone's trust brings an overall ebenficial affect
I respect people creating the relationships that best fit them, but what i honestly despise is polyamorous fags and "progressives" ranting on how open relationships are the way to go and sex can be completely separated from emotional investment and emotional investments desires from "lack" and possessiveness of some sort. And quickly bad everything in a "its just traditions and social codes running inside your head senpai, get free of them" as if there is some bisexual free loving hypersexual being inside all of us.

[Anonymous No.15262381]

>>15262377
but cooming feels good lmao

[Anonymous No.15262397]

>>15262381
It does, but it doesnt mean that you cant hurt people and even yourself later with it.