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/lit/ - Literature

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15229195 No.15229195 [Reply] [Original]

was hoolybeck right about sexual liberation?

>> No.15229208

>>15229195
Yes. He's right about evrything.

>> No.15229517

>>15229195
is this cover explained in the book

>> No.15229574

>>15229195

More right than he could have ever imagined.

>> No.15229577

>>15229517
i think it’s just because the protagonist sells agricultural accounting software

>> No.15229586

>>15229195
Ahead of his time

>> No.15229597

>While his masterpiece is Atomised – among the most distressingly original works of our times – his slim first novel is a superb declaration of hostilities. Published in English as Whatever, its original French title is more suggestive, translating as The Extension of the Domain of the Struggle.

Why didn't they keep the cool original title?

>> No.15229667

>>15229195
What did he say?

>> No.15229677

>>15229597
>Why didn't they keep the cool original title?
Because Americans only buy books with short 'cool' titles.

>> No.15229686

>>15229667

>…It’s a fact, I mused to myself, that in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization. Some men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or never. Some make love with dozens of women; others with none…

>> No.15229716
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15229716

>>15229686

>> No.15229729

Yes. The sexual revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race

>> No.15229734

>>15229517
>>15229577
I interpreted it as “we’re all just fucking cattle”

>> No.15229752

>>15229686
Ummm. Yeah? Some.people is luckier that others, and?

>> No.15229778

>>15229752
“there’s no issue with like 30% of young guys being sexless it’s actually healthy for society. Some guys just get lucky heh”

>> No.15229797

>>15229729
books about this?

>> No.15229801

>>15229778
I though that fascists were social darwinists that.supported inequality?
(Also, I realize the hypocresy of liberals and progressive socialists outright praising this level of unequality, to be fair)

>> No.15229852

>>15229752
Try separating the material world of men and universal cosmological laws. T. Chad

>> No.15229978

>>15229801
What the fuck does his answer have to do with fascism?

>> No.15229991

>>15229797
my diary desu

>> No.15230004

>>15229801
im not a fascist????

I agree though that liberals hate for incels is not very ideologically consistent

>> No.15230007

>>15229686
I don't think the biggest problem is that some people end up not having sex.
I think the biggest problem is that promiscuity has a lot of costs that most people don't realize.
If the result of the Sexual Revolution was a fuckfest where everyone has hundreds of partners and no one was a "loser", it would be even worse than what we have nowadays.

>> No.15230042

>>15230007
like what?

>> No.15230058

>>15230042
Could you rephrase the question?

>> No.15230072

>>15230058
He’s asking what the costs of the Sexual Revolution are.

>> No.15230111

>>15230072
In a couple of hours I will write a longer answer, but the Sexual Revolution led to families getting weaker (which had many negative effects) and sexual hedonism and promiscuity leads to unhappiness due to how it affects your desires, judgements and choices.

>> No.15230367

>>15229597
Whatever, dude.

>> No.15230418

>>15230367
He’s unequivocally correct

>> No.15230751

>>15230004
>>15229978
I was taught that only fascists cared about this stuff. Sorry
But yeah, Progressives are very hypocrital with the incel bashing. No one is asking them to hug and fuck them, but c'mon, most of them are just sad losers, not inhuman monsters hellbent on ruining the world

>> No.15231118

>>15230042
>>15230072
Longer answer than >>15230111

Promiscuity harms happiness. A large part of being happy is reducing your desires for things like sexual pleasure. By being promiscuous, you increase your desire for it, making it harder and harder for you to be satisfied. And the culture created by the Sexual Revolution ended up making this even worse. People define their self worth by how attractive they are. They think that sexual pleasure is an important part of a good life. And this leads, along with their increasing dependence on pleasure to a worse life not only because of the bad effects of being hedonistic on your happiness but because of poor choices you make because you chase pleasure.

And then there is the issue of families. Promiscuity is making lifelong monogamy less common. The best family environment is "two biological parents in a stable monogamous relationship". Breaking this ends up leading to problems.

>> No.15231157

>>15229517
he talks about the bretagne cow

>> No.15231169

>>15229597
>>15229677
The American title undermines the book, the cover art too is shit. makes the book look like a teenager emo novel

>> No.15231179

>>15231169
and the introduction in the English book is cringey, I don't think the translator understood anything.

>> No.15231201
File: 401 KB, 950x950, michel-houellebecq-whatever-950x950.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15231201

>>15231169
Yep

>> No.15231224

>>15229778
There is no fucking way it's 30%
More like 5% and even then its because they dont try

>> No.15231330

>>15230751
Liberals are for women. They're women in spirit and mind and whatever women says is correct. If women have deselected man? It's because he must be worthless
A serial killer who gets love letters while in prison is ironically a more desirable man than a "moral" guy who's nothing special

>> No.15231341

>>15231224
>just try harder bro lmao

>> No.15231370

>>15231118
>The best family environment is "two biological parents in a stable monogamous relationship".
Humans aren't hardwired to be serial monogamous? Like, having a partner and then discarding it for the next for a while before repeating the process?
>>15231330
Liberals actually have become aware of this but somehow they prefer ranting about the dumb incel in his PC and paint it as a righterous struggle instead of just laughing at a loser

>> No.15231371

the real problem with sexual liberation is that people love each other a lot less
men get depressed that they suddenly have a lot less options
women too get depressed when they realize they are always expendable for younger women
the true problem isn't that men are having less sex, it's that more men (and women) are ending up alone
the world is roughly half men half women, if a man ends up alone so does a woman

>> No.15231381

>>15231341
This but unironically.
Oh wait, then you get called a stalker and you're even more hated.
...jeez, this is fucked.

>> No.15231427

>>15231370
>Humans aren't hardwired to be serial monogamous? Like, having a partner and then discarding it for the next for a while before repeating the process?
I don't know what "humans are hardwired for" in regards to that, but I do know that "lifelong monogamy" gives better results. Both for your family and for yourself (serial monogamy doesn't lead for a happy life).

>> No.15231439

>>15231370
They're literally doing a social service. You have to keep people in line and young men who bail from society are doubly important to shame. They have no incentive to build the system or to play by the rules since they're not even getting a partner from the current set-up. Shaming works to a degree but you can reach a certain point when it becomes dangerous and there's violence. The stochastic terrorism is often from loveless losers but it can become more organised, for instance if religious leaders tell them that they can expect 72 virgins if they follow another program

>> No.15231458

>>15231439
Terrorists usually are married men.

>> No.15231462

>>15231439
based and forwardpilled

>> No.15231472

>>15231169
>The American title undermines the book, the cover art too is shit.
i think its a great title/cover

>makes the book look like a teenager emo novel
it is lmao

>> No.15231481

>>15231371
>the world is roughly half men half women, if a man ends up alone so does a woman
Imagine being such a brainlet that you can't wrap your brain around hypergamy
Although your other points are valid

>> No.15231497

>>15231481
You should stop reading "The Rational Male". It is bad for yourself.

>> No.15231503

>>15231481
lmao is this a weird cope or a form of bait

>> No.15231504

>>15231497
I never heard of the book before. Also
>assuming things like these beforehand
Brainlet

>> No.15231519

>>15231503
yeah bro lmao like if one guy isnt having sex that automatically means one woman is missing out on sex as well, a man and a woman are always necessarily paired, its not like multiple guys can fuck multiple women!
Leave and never come back, you absolute mongoloid.

>> No.15231528
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15231528

>>15229517
There's a cow coming right after the reader, but the reader just responds with apathy and accepts that the cow will probably lick him

>> No.15231529

>>15231519
He is not talking about sex, he is talking about pairing.

>> No.15231536

>>15231519
*like one guy can fuck multiple women

>>15231529
"end up alone" can also imply sex, he should have been more precise if that's what he meant in the first place

>> No.15231538

>>15229801
What’s so great about equality

Some people are objectively worse than others

>> No.15231546

>>15231118
>The best family environment is "two biological parents in a stable monogamous relationship"
I agree, but it should embedded into a larger network of extended family (e.g., cousins who share same value of stable monogamous relationship).

>> No.15231551

>>15231504
This theory came from that book.
It is the kind of book that is said to be a "dating advice book" but that makes men try to become MGTOW, since the if way it described women and relationships was accurate, it would be better to go monk mode and stay by yourself.

>> No.15231552

>>15231519
if your definition of the real problem is men not having sex they can very easily fuck hundreds of hookers wtf is wrong with you
the real problem is more men and women ending up alone, sex is just sex

>> No.15231556

>>15231458
Terrorists are people who feel like they've got nothing to lose. Other than that, it's wildly disparate group. I said "the stochastic terrorism" and I'm more specifically talking about these frowny white guys who try to kill as many minorities or women as possible. Not necessarily the biggest threat (and perhaps somewhat sensationalized) but they're definitely a real group of people who you can move in a certain direction, politically and ideologically. Right now they're mostly in right-wing/red-pill spheres but things can happen. Islamic expansion worked with the promise of concubines and an abundance of frustrated men

>> No.15231571

>>15231551
>it would be better to go monk mode and stay by yourself
That depends on how you look. If you look decent enough, you should go for women, just not chase them too much and also not engage in serious relationships with them.
>>15231552
Prostitution isn't legalized in every country, you dumb fuck. Not to mention it's really stigmatized.

>> No.15231586

>>15231556
>Right now they're mostly in right-wing/red-pill spheres but things can happen. Islamic expansion worked with the promise of concubines and an abundance of frustrated men
I don't think that too many of them are christians or religious in general, not a lot of people today are, at least in the true sense of that word. I find it hard to believe that some aggressive incel would go from agnosticism or atheism to islam.

>> No.15231587

>>15231552
Sex is sacred when it's done by human beings with a higher-level of consciousness than a nigger.

>> No.15231590

>>15231546
I saw some feminists thinking that "extended family" was some kind of liberal arrangement with single mothers living with their children and their mothers.
It is not. Extended family is mega traditionalist.

>> No.15231591

Jesus christ what happened to this place?

>> No.15231601

>>15231571
why is being stigmatized a problem? being a whore ie fucking tons of men is also a form of stigma for the female, and a very real one too considering the increasing amount of women who end up alone unmarried
you're seeing this as a one way problem because you're looking at it only through the lens of having sex, which is such a myopic perspective I won't even consider arguing any further

>> No.15231602

>>15231556
No, if you look at statistics, most terrorists have no romantic problems at all.

>> No.15231605

>>15231546
I realized that my cousins are a vital part of what I am so I'm inclined to agree, large families are nice

>> No.15231606

>>15231590
>Extended family is mega traditionalist.
It's best for it be mega traditionalist, but I think those feminists are just using the word in a different and more degenerate sense.

>> No.15231613

>>15231587
sex hasn't been sacred for a long time, it's the reason there is debate about this in the first place boyo

>> No.15231617

>>15231601
>being a whore ie fucking tons of men is also a form of stigma for the female
Only if they fuck a lot as prostitutes; if they fuck a lot while doing something else (having a different job, that is), it's not looked down on at all.
>the increasing amount of women who end up alone unmarried
This is far from true. Women can end up alone, but thanks to the values that the society of today, they can find a man who would be willing to be with them. Women are valued much more in today's society.

>> No.15231618

>>15231590
I realized it as well but...shhhhh, they finally are realizing the good aspects of family, this is a special chance

>> No.15231620

>>15231571
>That depends on how you look. If you look decent enough, you should go for women, just not chase them too much and also not engage in serious relationships with them.
You shouldn't because you will gain nothing by going for them.
If the TRM is correct, there is nothing to be gained from romantic relationships. You should move to a monastery.

>> No.15231629

>>15231613
Sex is sacred. It's just some cultures defile it.

>> No.15231630

>>15231620
>If the TRM is correct, there is nothing to be gained from romantic relationships
Which is why I said you shouldn't engage in serious relationships with them. Just engage in having sex.

>> No.15231635

>>15231591
go back

>> No.15231641

>>15231630
>Which is why I said you shouldn't engage in serious relationships with them. Just engage in having sex.
Empty sex doesn't lead to a good, fulfiling life.
If the only thing you can get is empty sex, celibacy is a better option.

>> No.15231649

>>15231586
I'm not saying that they're going to become muslims, I'm saying that it's an untapped source of power and it's a mistake to think that all you have to do is to shame and the problem will go away. You're merely performing a social duty when shaming
>>15231602
I never said that they don't have partners. At most I said that they fight a perceived existential threat

>> No.15231684

>>15231606
I feel many of them are feeling lonely and ironically ended up reviving traditional bonds between woman in a attempt to ease the hardships of life.

>> No.15231828

>>15231641
No. Even if you eat food that you're bored of, you still satiate your hunger. The same goes for sex.

>>15231649
I didn't say that we should shame them, I just thought that you were implying that they could easily become muslims or something. However, I think that even if the situation got worse in a sense that the number of males who have sex and how often they have it becomes even more dysproportional, the majority of males on the side of not having sex will still keep trying by orbiting around women, self-improving etc. (and through this also making economy more stable since the money will go to gyms, cafes and other spots). Those who withdraw from women or society in general will always be in the minority, as human nature is such that we are wired to search for contact.

>> No.15231856

>>15231828
>No. Even if you eat food that you're bored of, you still satiate your hunger. The same goes for sex.
Sex is not food. Being celibate is better than being promiscuous.

>> No.15231871

>>15231856
>Sex is not food
You can technically survive without ever having sex, but depending on your personality it can also cause psychological damage, which is more true than ever in today's society because of the values and behaviour that is being promoted. I would be with you on this if this were 500 years ago, but we're talking about the year 2020.

>> No.15231881

>>15231684
The average woman just imitates whatever is the zeitgeist at the time. Of course exceptions exist.
Modern zeitgeist is all about physical pleasure at all costs like a hyper-hedonism.

>> No.15231884

>>15231871
Is the problem the lack of sex or is the problem the values and behaviors that are being promoted?
Is it better to become promiscuous or is it better to cleanse yourself from bad values?

>> No.15231905

>>15231828
I do believe that they can become radicalised for a political purpose, it doesn't have to be Islam.
> However, I think that even if the situation got worse in a sense that the number of males who have sex and how often they have it becomes even more dysproportional, the majority of males on the side of not having sex will still keep trying by orbiting around women, self-improving etc.
Maybe you're right. In a sense I find it pointless in dwelling into an eschatology for loser incels. It's how the world works, we throw away the dead weight and don't look back. Complaining about the self-righteousness of certain people is somewhat besides the point, the trash still has to go

>> No.15231921

>>15231905
*delving

>> No.15231971

>>15231905
From a moral standpoint, it's questionable whether many of the women who get orbiters and horny males offering themselves really deserve it, but that's a different kind of problem from the incels. In any case, not every incel subscribes to what a good chunk of people on the internet perceive when they hear "incel". The vocal minority isn't really relevant.
Over the years I've seen a vast increase in the amount of threads that touch on incels and transsexuals. What is the explanation for this? There's that one talk about some discord servers, but that's too simple of an explanation. In general, the entire internet seems to have changed and I can't make a step without stumbling upon a conversation related to one or both of these things.

>> No.15232188

>>15231971
>women who get orbiters and horny males offering themselves really deserve it
I don't know what amount of orbiters are "fair" but it'll happen either way. It might be a bitter pill for some to find out that women are always more desirable after years of hearing everyone talk about equality between the sexes but there's no solution
>incels and transsexuals. What is the explanation for this?
There's a great possibility that the incel men are becoming women to avoid the place of the lowliest man: the outside. The outside is a "necessary evil" for shitty men but it's definitely where dark stuff happens. I can understand why a young guy would like to escape that.
A more stratified society means more men on the outside.

Incel fascination is a mix of loser porn (Honey booboo, 90 day fiance, bum fights), JBP-styled sorrow and the social self-defense mechanism of keeping the outside from leaking in with shaming and gloating.

>> No.15232199

>>15231201
does the reviewer think that the book is literally nauseating? what a fucking pussy. I hope he never has to drive past roadkill

>> No.15232220

>>15232188
>It might be a bitter pill for some to find out that women are always more desirable after years of hearing everyone talk about equality between the sexes but there's no solution
I'd say that they are currently more desirable because of two combined things:
1. how high sex is valued
2. how rare it's given to you if you're average or below average looking
>There's a great possibility that the incel men are becoming women to avoid the place of the lowliest man: the outside
This was kind of always a joke in those circles, I recall this kind of ironic shitposting many years before now, but I guess for some it stopped being irony
>I can understand why a young guy would like to escape that
I wouldn't call it escaping since trans people aren't that accepted (even if there's a vocal minority and also multiple mediums pandering to them), not to mention that if someone wants to fuck a pussy, he won't convince himself on a subconscious level that he's happy that he's getting fucked in the ass
>Incel fascination is a mix of loser porn (Honey booboo, 90 day fiance, bum fights), JBP-styled sorrow and the social self-defense mechanism of keeping the outside from leaking in with shaming and gloating
Can you elaborate on all this?

>> No.15232497

>>15232220
>1. how high sex is valued
>2. how rare it's given to you if you're average or below average looking
It might sound trite but it serves the economy. Monks are great and all but they're not buying iPhones. It becomes especially disturbing if you believe that a kind of mental chastity is what builds civilisation. It's not really a notion that's entertained by any major players right now but I'm not ruling out the idea that we're in a game of diminishing returns right now
>I wouldn't call it escaping since trans people aren't that accepted
It has everything to with their own mental software, being unpopular doesn't play into it. The realization that you're a man and that no one cares about you unless you've got something to come with is something that's an either/or situation. Protecting yourself from saying this with conviction is probably enough for many. That's why they want other people to call them by their new gender, it keeps the illusion alive

>Can you elaborate on all this?
Loser porn is obvious, we like relishing in the miseries of others, being happy that we're not them.
The sentimentality of JBP is to look at the deselected men and saying that things are not so bad, things can be fixed, the broken can be healed, the beggar can be king. To some people that is loathsome. They think that these guys have been deselected for a reason and that JBP is preventing them from throwing the trash out.
The shaming is just how to keep these deselected men from lashing out. It's also to point out how it's not okay to become undesirable. Being undesirable is actually dangerous because it takes you to the outside and dark things happens on the outside. You might become a mall shooter or you might become a Van Gogh. Either way, you're becoming something weird and strange.

>> No.15232633

>>15232497
>The realization that you're a man and that no one cares about you unless you've got something to come with is something that's an either/or situation. Protecting yourself from saying this with conviction is probably enough for many. That's why they want other people to call them by their new gender, it keeps the illusion alive
Makes sense, this could also explain why trans stuff has been on the rise in the last few years
>Loser porn is obvious, we like relishing in the miseries of others, being happy that we're not them.
Correct, but it doesn't look to me like that stuff was so popular before; if anything, it's popularized now by people who actually insert as the losing side, not the winning side
>The sentimentality of JBP is to look at the deselected men and saying that things are not so bad, things can be fixed, the broken can be healed, the beggar can be king. To some people that is loathsome. They think that these guys have been deselected for a reason and that JBP is preventing them from throwing the trash out.
What does JBP mean?
>The shaming is just how to keep these deselected men from lashing out
I don't think this is how the society operates, as shaming them will actually anger some of them after a long time; if you bluepill them with equality (we're all beautiful in our own way etc. which might be correct but it doesn't change the fact that a good chunk of people share similar if not the same concepts for beauty) or do the opposite and create a false intelligence-looks dichotomy ("if you're ugly then you're smart, no one can have both or neither") through the smart nerd stereotypes (in which he's smart and ugly at the same time) and similar stuff, you can keep them more satisfied that way
>Either way, you're becoming something weird and strange
Artists like Van Gogh are actually pretty praised nowadays, as are artists in general, which explains the rise of all the pseudo art people like the stereotypical "artsy" girl which is just deluding herself (and others, although some are probably in it just because they're hoping they'll get pussy)

>> No.15232832

I am enjoying this thread far more of how I expected

>> No.15232863

>>15232633
>Correct, but it doesn't look to me like that stuff was so popular before; if anything, it's popularized now by people who actually insert as the losing side, not the winning side
Women like the deal as well. Instead of having to put up with a bunch of weird losers who aren't getting laid they instead have to put up with guys who castrate themselves and use hormones. It's a less dangerous kind of affair, for women. No one is losing anything but the nebulous group of "men" who we aren't sure even exists anymore
>What does JBP mean?
Jordan B Peterson
>I don't think this is how the society operates, as shaming them will actually anger some of them after a long time
Shaming works to a degree but sure, it's not the only thing being done. The best tool has always been organised religion. It pacifies losers in the deepest sense
>Artists like Van Gogh are actually pretty praised nowadays
He only sold one painting, I believe. He was definitely on the outside, far from a Bouguereau type. What's on the outside eventually becomes the inside if it pleases the audience. It's a neat magic trick

>> No.15232882

Its probably the hardest right now its ever been for average males to compete in the sexual market. The rising trend of virgins in the like 18-24 bracket is some alarming shit

>> No.15232897

>>15232863
>Jordan B Peterson
Why the B? And you could have just said "Peterson".
>To some people that is loathsome. They think that these guys have been deselected for a reason and that JBP is preventing them from throwing the trash out.
Yeah, some could be hating him for that reason. He probably managed to change some guy's minds about trans stuff in a sense that they didn't transition etc.
>The best tool has always been organised religion
I guess, although organised religion is at odds with the values that are trying to be pushed (abortion, LGBT stuff etc), which is why I guess people are forcing the buddhism view now, since it's one of those religions that is compatible with the aforementioned values
>It's a neat magic trick
Yeah, except that the pretentious people who consider themselves artists of such kind (yet who do not have artistic talent nor the stigmatization of those artists) can make themselves believe that they already did the magic trick (that they're already liked now even if time didn't pass, i.e. that they are already on the inside); I guess some of them also really think that they're living on the outside (even though they have a wide circle of friends, aren't stigmatized etc.; that's cognitive dissonance for you, one of the prime characteristics of human beings) and think they're "cool" and "smart" because of that

>> No.15232934

>>15231169
It looks like an Animorphs book.

>> No.15232936

jesus, this thread is like a watered-down version of /pol/. serious cringe

>> No.15233096

>>15232897
>Why the B? And you could have just said "Peterson".
I like the B, it just B like that
> He probably managed to change some guy's minds about trans stuff in a sense that they didn't transition etc.
Not unlikely. Also there's the sentiment that guys who couldn't clean their rooms before daddy Peterson told them to is obviously of inferior genetic material and should be left to die. They don't say it like that but it's what they're implying
>I guess, although organised religion is at odds with the values that are trying to be pushed (abortion, LGBT stuff etc), which is why I guess people are forcing the buddhism view now, since it's one of those religions that is compatible with the aforementioned values
I don't think there's a plan, they want a hypersexualised society where all energy is spent on attaining pussy and material goods but also a society where the pussy-less and the goods-less (a growing population) wont lash out. No amount SSRIs or meditation can fix it
>Yeah, except that the pretentious people who consider themselves artists of such kind (yet who do not have artistic talent nor the stigmatization of those artists) can make themselves believe that they already did the magic trick
Now the magic trick is to bring in minorities and silenced voices, the outside is depicted as "being a woman" or "being a poc" and being a "white man" is always on the inside, since all white men are accepted and privileged. It's a neat trick because it actually shields us even more from the outside.

>> No.15233201

>>15231179
>Reading in translation

>> No.15234309

>>15229577
also his little animal fiction he writes

>> No.15234471

>>15233201
who cares faggot