How do Christians cope?

[Anonymous No.15194046]

> showed how you can live a virtous and happy life, but without having to commit to religion

How does Christians cope with this? Especially considering the fact that Christianity adapted their philosophies in the Early Church. Christians want to live happy and virtous lives, and everything they are following can be found in platonic or aristotelean writings, yet they choose to give after to Jesus and God. Even Paul was greatly familiar with platonic philosophy, and used platonic terms all the time. Why is Christ necessary when everything already was said by Plato and Aristotle?

[Anonymous No.15194055]

They cope by worshipping a kike on a stick and kissing nigger feet on a daily basis

[Anonymous No.15194071]

>>15194046
read st justin martyr

[Anonymous No.15194076]

>>15194046
christians don't want to be happy, they want the people who bully them and hurt their feelings to be unhappy.

[Anonymous No.15194081]

>>15194071
No. Tell me what his theory or explaination for this is, or you're a pseud. I am not going to read the whole bibliography of a saint anon.

[Anonymous No.15194086]

>>15194046
Because God offered something those philosophies didn't which was a foundation for it all. It offered redemption that Aristotle's ethics didn't (if it doesn't work for you then switch it) and Plato's as well didn't say particularly what his philosophy led to. It said it was great world of forms etc but christianity offered something concrete that put it all together. Since polybius the Roman's have been very ecstatic to find an answer to which they saw as the eventual doom of the empire and christianity, besides a lot of set-backs, supplanted other philosophies and philosophers by the upper and lower class

[Anonymous No.15194094]

>>15194055

Here is a book all about you, anon.

[Anonymous No.15194099]

>>15194081
With christianity you could justify being tortured with other philosophies you could not at all or not fully

[Anonymous No.15194106]

>>15194046
Effectively you democratized socrates conviction and for most of history that's what it was.

[Anonymous No.15194115]

>>15194099
I don't think I'd care much whether my torturer is justified or not, I'd try to make it stop as soon as possible.

[Anonymous No.15194129]

It's worth mentioning that christianity outsurvived the empire. In most Pagan cultures this doesn't happen

[Anonymous No.15194132]

>>15194086
> Because God offered something those philosophies didn't which was a foundation for it all.

What do you mean that these philosophies didn't have foundation? Plato and Aristotle have rationality and dialectic as a foundation. I am not saying this to be an epic atheist and claim that Christianity doesn't have rationality, because it totaly does. However, it didn't bring anything new.

> It offered redemption that Aristotle's ethics didn't

Redemption from what?

> Plato's as well didn't say particularly what his philosophy led to

Yes he did. A virtous and happy life, just like Christ claims.

> but christianity offered something concrete that put it all together.

Could you please tell me what this concrete thing is? It is what your total argument is built upon, but you choose to not tell me for some reason.

[Anonymous No.15194141]

>>15194115
Sure but you're not always in control and socrates trial rather shows this type of conviction

[Anonymous No.15194171]

>>15194046
name 5 books by plato and aristotle you have read

[Anonymous No.15194179]

>>15194132
Life after death. Free from corruption. That's this simple.

[Anonymous No.15194183]

>>15194099
> justify being tortured
The problem here is that the phenomenon of being tortured is a part of the Christian theology itself. Plato and Aristotle didn't talk about humans being tortured and need to live virtous lives to stop it. It came from judaism, and Christ elaborated on it. The only reason Christianity justifies it, is because it is a Christian problem. It is not a problem in platonic or aristotelean philosophy.

[Anonymous No.15194188]

>>15194132
As I said an aristotelian being persecuted for doing x, which they believe is the right thing, would lead themselves to dropping it if it's too much. The mechanism of Aristotelianism isn't one of conviction in the jaws of defeat. Plato didn't really have a huge ethics system. Most of it was implied and if it failed it was said it was just ideal.

I did it's jesus. What's confusing about that

[Anonymous No.15194197]

>>15194183
It's an odd miss from the guy living with socrates

[Anonymous No.15194201]

>>15194046
/mVNUytg

[Anonymous No.15194203]

>>15194132
>Could you please tell me what this concrete thing is?
incarnated logos, anon. ask God and he'll give you faith, otherwise you'll never understand

[Anonymous No.15194216]

>>15194183
People were tortured in these instances, in Plato's dialogues he just drew on an elenchus and never made absolute points just got near them. Of course his character was redeemable and it was implied but it wasn't concrete like 'God is watching us, he is our creator. We shall do the right thing and we are correct for doing so even if everyone is a pervert'

[Anonymous No.15194223]

>>15194171

Whether I've read 5 books or not, am I wrong though, and if so, why?

I am genuinly trying to work this out. I am trying to be some douchebag atheist. If all this is so clear for Christians, just tell me and make your case. I find a fair share of Christianity appealing, but this right here is one of the problems stopping me from converting. I can live virtous without Christ, why should I then choose Christ?

[Anonymous No.15194226]

>>15194046
>without having to commit to religion
what is philosophia
you don't even know what philosophia is and you want christians to tell you how their theological muthopoesis in a 4chan post? you are utterly desperate

[Anonymous No.15194228]

Also I think it's generally a good idea to understand evolution of ideology in a sincerely helpful manner to the ppl adopting it. It's the best first step

[Anonymous No.15194240]

>>15194046
The Greeks were pederasts, only the west can be considered aristotelian, and platonicism is not exclusive to the classical era. Christ is necessary because he carried all of humanities sins. A thread died for this.

[Anonymous No.15194247]

>>15194223
I think you can be virtuous but if it stands out as the most virtuous you would go to it correct? There may be other things you won't grasp as an atheist. All western atheists follow christian morality and even endear themselves to a secular jesus. To me it's like saying, well if I can understand some physics from this book why go the one this quotes from that is more in depth.

[Anonymous No.15194250]

>>15194223
you don't even know what plato and aristotle proposed, your post is nonsense. why do you expect to be convinced of the contrary? you don't. you already made this thread in complete dishonesty. i told you to read st justin martyr and not his biography. philosophy is profane theology

[Anonymous No.15194256]

>>15194240
> Christ is necessary because he carried all of humanities sins.

One would only care about this if one was Christian. Non-christians doesn't believe Christ actually did that, quite obviously.

[Anonymous No.15194266]

>>15194081
>I'm not going to read him, you tell me what the book says!
You know anon, maybe a literature board it's not for you.Why don't you go to /pol/? Nobody reads there, you're going to get a lot more of "le epic replies" for your "le epic troll post", and you also get the fuck out off my board.
It's an "absolute win" for all of us, don't you think?

[Anonymous No.15194283]

>>15194226
> you don't even know what philosophia is and you want christians to tell you how their theological muthopoesis in a 4chan post?

Yes. Why not? It's part of the Christian religion to try to convert people. However, every Christian on lit chooses to rather be a huge dick about it and refuse to tell you the deal about Christianity, claiming you're an idiot if you want to know more.

[Anonymous No.15194286]

>>15194106
Most people have never read Plato

[Anonymous No.15194290]

>>15194256
That is irrelevant to the fact that He did. Non-Christians are not beyond salvation, also check your spelling.

[Anonymous No.15194304]

>>15194256
Tbf, as a Unitarian, I really dgaf if you believe christ died to save ur sins literally or even not at all but Roman's adopted christianity because it 'finished' what the other philosophers started. Again platonism came close but it didn't have any tools like Judaism or some monotheism to justify it. In socrates dialogues he claims a single god but how developed that was given his environment we may never know but it's interesting to note

[Anonymous No.15194311]

>>15194247
> I think you can be virtuous but if it stands out as the most virtuous you would go to it correct?

I agree.

> There may be other things you won't grasp as an atheist.

I am not an atheist, neither claiming that the only view available after Christianity is atheism. There is clearly some deity.

> To me it's like saying, well if I can understand some physics from this book why go the one this quotes from that is more in depth.

The New Testament is greek philosophy for the masses. Why wouldn't you then rather read Plato and Aristotle, the source?

[Anonymous No.15194312]

oh, you said bibliography i misread that. in that case read justin martyr's first apology. it's smaller than 100 pages and answers all your questions why christianity is above greek philosophy as justin had greek phil formation

[Anonymous No.15194332]

>>15194266
Why are Christians like this man. I am genuinely trying to understand, open to get convinced. Being great examples of Christ here guys.

[Anonymous No.15194333]

>>15194171
Not OP, but I've read Plato's complete works and I agree with OP.

[Anonymous No.15194336]

>>15194046
They cope'd by destroying the Academy and outlawing philosophy.

[Anonymous No.15194341]

>>15194311
I take both w a grain of salt. The bible has, either intentionally or unintentionally depending what side of the railroad tracks you're on, a lot of metaphysics neither of the other two cover. Colossians 1:15 jesus divinity is him made in God's image tied w philippians 4:13 all things are through him and genesis god was the beginning he created everything. It implies a monism and you get some odd things in there like a punishment for hitting the rock vs speaking to it implies a rationalism over empiricism. It's really good I don't take it as God's word because god could say one word and it means everything. That bible is just a waypoint

[~[[[-_-]]]~ No.15194345]

>>15194046
Religion is greater than philosophy, especially the religion of Jesus.

[Anonymous No.15194348]

>>15194197
I have the same question as OP but this is pretty damn funny

[Anonymous No.15194364]

>>15194283
you are not an idiot for wanting to know more about it, but you are an idiot for approaching it with this hubristic cynicism, you just want to attack and debase it. i mean, you don't even know what philosophy (truly) is,
>without having to commit to religion
can't you understand how this is ridiculous when it comes to genuine philosophy?

[Anonymous No.15194372]

>>15194341
> a lot of metaphysics neither of the other two cover

Alright, fair. That's actually interesting. Thanks for giving proper responses man. I actually want to learn about this and understand, but most of these anons are just shitting on me for not mindlessly having comitted to Christianity, because its le based.

[Anonymous No.15194385]

>>15194372
No doubt dude whatever you find that helps I hope it lights your way man

[Anonymous No.15194387]

>>15194203
Not the person you were answering, but I remember begging for help as a child, spending nights in prayer. Didn't work out.

When people say "just pray and God will save you" or "Just believe", I think about when I tried prayer years ago.

[Anonymous No.15194391]

>>15194364
I am not cynical about this at all. This is all I want to know:

Why should I commit to Christ when I can live a virtous life and gain the same benefits without converting?

Give me your take and I'll be happy.

[Anonymous No.15194392]

>>15194183
Doesnt Plato give his vision of eternal damnation for the most evil souls in the Phaedo?

[Anonymous No.15194395]

>>15194304
>Roman's adopted christianity because it 'finished' what the other philosophers started.
objectively false

[Anonymous No.15194409]

>>15194266
Your hostility reeks of fear.

[Anonymous No.15194410]

>>15194332
>genuinely trying to understand
>wont read a book to increase his understanding

[Anonymous No.15194413]

>>15194395
I mean definitionally that's the only reason they could adopt it over other Pagan philosophies. It's the only way humans adopt something over something they had prior

[Anonymous No.15194417]

>>15194332
not the same person but this is tiring, everyday it is the same thing in this place. look at the obnoxious disdain in OP. by the way you have no idea at all about jesus, he wasn't a ''nice'' guy, read the NT

[Anonymous No.15194430]

>>15194413
no, that's retarded.

[Anonymous No.15194435]

>>15194364
"Hubristic cynicism" is probably you projecting.

[Anonymous No.15194444]

>>15194341
You seem to be the only person who answered the question. Fly high my friend.

[Anonymous No.15194453]

>>15194410
Apologies, you are right that I am ignorant. My point about writing I won't read it, was that I am not going to end the discussion there and go read a book before discussing further. I can't read dozens of books to further my understanding by the time this thread is dead. If you want me to get the point, tell me, so your point can be made clearer and the discussion can continue

[Anonymous No.15194458]

>>15194392
I'm pretty sure it's not eternal. There's an intriguing sense of reincarnation as the way of the system.

[Anonymous No.15194464]

>>15194417
He won’t. He is too scared of finding out that he was wrong. But that’s the start of the spiritual journey of christianity.

[Anonymous No.15194466]

>>15194099
>it is better to suffer an injustice than to inflict it

>>15194046
>showed how you can live a virtuous and happy life, but without having to commit to religion
Republic II, Laws X

[Anonymous No.15194473]

>>15194417
The OP does not have obnoxious disdain. He's already been insulted multiple times, and he's hardly reacted. He has an honest question.

[Anonymous No.15194475]

>>15194417
I OP, wrote the reply you're tagging. I am not quite sure if you're aware which of these replies are mine and which are not. I am not trying to have disdain here. I believe there is a god, and I agree with lots of greek philosophy that are similar with Christianity, I am trying to see if there is a final bridge and a connection to make here.

[Anonymous No.15194485]

>>15194464
Projecting. Switch "spiritual journey of Christianity" for "philosophical journey of the Greeks" and it's you.

[Anonymous No.15194495]

>>15194392
Yes, and he repeats it in Republic.

[Anonymous No.15194509]

>>15194464
OP here again. I am not afraid of being wrong. Some people have clearly showed that there are problems with my argument, and I accept that. Will I convert to Christianity in an instant? No. However, I will naturally look further into this, knowing that there are proper arguments for Christianity's case to make about this.

[Anonymous No.15194518]

>>15194485
>>15194435

Based psychoanalysis anon.

[Anonymous No.15194534]

>>15194485
Christian monks modified greek philosophy and greek philosophy shaped christianity you cannot draw a straight line between the two.

[Anonymous No.15194551]

>>15194453
This board is only useful for book reccomendations. All the debates are just pissing contests.
>>15194458
There were some souls who were just so wretched that they go into the pits of tartarus eternally, according to the Phaedo.

[Anonymous No.15194556]

>>15194534
>Christian monks modified greek philosophy
and what a shame it is

[Anonymous No.15194604]

>>15194046
Well the theology of the early church is correct and Aristotle or Plato's respective models are not. Nobody cares how Plato lived as long as they think Christianity is true.
>Especially considering the fact that Christianity adapted their philosophies in the Early Church
This is an untrue meme. The church father's consistently dismissed pagan philosophy saying while they did get things wrongs we don't assume their philosophic projects.
>everything they are following can be found in platonic or aristotelean writings
This isn't true and even if the morals were the same or something it would be missing everything that gives Christianity it's context.
>Even Paul was greatly familiar with platonic philosophy, and used platonic terms all the time.
A lot of the church father's were.
> Why is Christ necessary when everything already was said by Plato and Aristotle?
Because Christ really is the son of God and God revealed things Plato or Aristotle never could have imagined. Also the ethics of Christianity are completely different in their foundation and their application.

[Anonymous No.15194613]

>>15194604
>This isn't true and even if the morals were the same or something it would be missing everything that gives Christianity it's context.
cope

[Anonymous No.15194614]

>>15194604
Meant to say while they do get things right

[Anonymous No.15194620]

>>15194613
It's not a cope I'm stating a fact.

[Anonymous No.15194654]

>>15194604
>t. Coming in after the conversation has ended and re-stating points that have already been refuted, etc.

[Anonymous No.15194669]

>>15194391
ok, anon. it is just that your original post is completely deviod of humility, it is more a provocation than a humble question.
It is very difficult to elaborate a response apropos committing to Christianity, which besides scientific knowledge (in the platonic, dianoetic sense) also comprises Pistis, faith. The platonic tradition is not a comprehensive tradition for the reason I mentioned, it is mainly gnostic (i mean gnostic in its etymological denotation, in no wise pejoratively), but of course you have mystical/spiritual depth in the writings of Plotinus. You either commit yourself fully to it extending to the Egyptian mysteries and mythology (comprising Orphism, Pythagoreanism culminating in Platonism itself) to immerse yourself in a more solid and rich tradition or you go to Christianity (you still have platonic metaphysics here). What I am trying to convey is that the gnostic aspect in Christianity is not merely an adaptation, but a continuation of the whole process of the Golden Chain (Egyptian mythopoesis to Platonism), you have for example in St. Maximos an extremely skillful development of the Logos and the logoi. The spiritual and mystical sense in Christianity is also different.
I'd recommend you reading this from Shestov on faith and reason: http://www.angelfire.com/nb/shestov/pc/pc1_1.html
and/or his Athens and Jerusalem, specially because you are still clinging to reason.
(btw in the link above he btfo socrates and his virtues)

[Anonymous No.15194677]

>>15194654
I'm not concerned with what fedoras consider refutations of my points I was stating my case.

[Anonymous No.15194680]

>>15194332
>>15194409
I haven't made an argument for Christianity you retards, what i'm saying is that this is a literature board. We discuss books.
Not only OP has not mentioned any book on his post, he also rejected a guy who actually recommended him an author who deals on the topic he's asking about.
If you don't want to read that's fine, but go to another board then.

[Anonymous No.15194684]

>>15194141
Socrates was in control, he chose not to escape.

[Anonymous No.15194685]

>>15194620
cope

[Anonymous No.15194724]

>>15194604
> This is an untrue meme.
Really? The logos is taken froom the greeks, as well as the concept of faith (pistis). Later Aquinas (Not the Early Church, but still incredible important) used Aristotle to describe Gods existence.

The Early Church was constantly in dialogue with the gnostics, not to forget that gnostics to a large degree was the early church. And gnostics shamelessly lend from Plato and Aristotle.

> This isn't true and even if the morals were the same or something it would be missing everything that gives Christianity it's context.

Please elaborate. Why isn't it ture? What about Christianity gives it context? I have no reason to agree with you unless you tell me this.

> A lot of the church father's were.

Proves my point.

> Because Christ really is the son of God and God revealed things Plato or Aristotle never could have imagined.

Please elaborate. What did he say that Plato and Aristotle didn't mention? I grew up Christian, and reading Plato, I find it extremely similiar.

[Anonymous No.15194738]

>>15194680
OP mentions the writings of Plato, Aristotle, and Paul. Also:

>you retards

Your hostility reeks of fear.

[Anonymous No.15194739]

>>15194435
projecting what you imbecile? are you mentally culled not to perceive the tone in his original post and here >>15194332 too?

[Anonymous No.15194759]

>>15194669
> your original post is completely deviod of humility, it is more a provocation than a humble question.

Yeah I agree. Apologies. It's just that if I were to write it any other way I risk not getting attention or replies, resulting in no discussion. It is certainly dumb that it has to be that way, but it is how it is.

I will read what you linked. Thanks for a proper reply man. I certainly see that there is a point to be made here.

[Anonymous No.15194789]

>>15194739
How old are you?

[Anonymous No.15194790]

>>15194739
OP here, "are you mentally culled not to percieve the tone" in every other post I've written where I sincerely appreciate an actual answer?

[Anonymous No.15194843]

>>15194724
>The logos is taken froom the greeks
Almost like how the dao has a similar application as logos in both cultures yet in all three cases they're different in their application
Pistis had a rhetorical function in the Greek understanding while in Christianity it described something something similar to a wholistic understanding of a topic.
Aquinas was wrong to take on Aristotle's philosophic project and really did a number on the development of Christianity after him. This is why I tried to make it clear I wasn't defending something like Thomism
>The Early Church was constantly in dialogue with the gnostics, not to forget that gnostics to a large degree was the early church. And gnostics shamelessly lend from Plato and Aristotle.
And?
>Please elaborate. Why isn't it ture? What about Christianity gives it context? I have no reason to agree with you unless you tell me this.
What gives it context: revelation. Things like the Fall, the redemption, tradition etc.
The claim it's self was ridiculous, as if you could find the Gospel of John in Aristotle's metaphysics.
>Proves my point.
How? Because they were familiar with philosophic systems and tried to use that to help heretics understand Christianity? When Christians went to Asia they translated "the word" or "logos" to dao to help Asians understand the concept. Does this mean Christianity stole it's philosophy from Asians as well?
>Please elaborate. What did he say that Plato and Aristotle didn't mention? I grew up Christian, and reading Plato, I find it extremely similiar.
I shouldn't have to because of how evident it isbut just look at Genesis and try to show me where Plato mentions that event. By the way you can't have true Christianity without a literal Genesis so no you can't just omit something like that

[Anonymous No.15194850]

>>15194724
>The logos is taken froom the greeks, as well as the concept of faith (pistis).
greek words are taken from greeks, and (christian) greeks using them are plagiarizing greek philosophy? seriously?
the Fathers used many terms employed in greek philosophy but: 1) most of them were developed in different ways like ousia and hypostasis; 2) platonists, YES PLATONISTS, took many terms from stoics, peripatetics for example without developing them further; and 3) Logos for example was emphasized because THE LOGOS WAS MADE FLESH.
but what is most important: what is the problem with employing in the same sense, developing or adapting terms from other schools? is plotinian philosophy less platonist because of it?

>Aquinas
who cares? Justin, Augustine, St Maximus, John Damascene, all praised platonism but they sticked with orthodox Christianity. Origen, a christian, fell for the ''religious philosophy'' of the ''greeks'' but still was well regarded by christians.

>The Early Church was constantly in dialogue with the gnostics
''dialogue'', yeah sure.

>gnostics to a large degree was the early church
what do you even mean? the early church was the apostles and the martyrs

[Anonymous No.15194871]

>>15194046
Look at all those nerds bickering. Clearly, the best answer is that the Catholic aesthetic is superior.

[Anonymous No.15194876]

>>15194738
He didn't mentioned any specific text on his post, and when other anon asked him to mention 5 books he evaded the question (see >>15194171 ), so i'm guessing he actually didn't read neither Plato or Aristotle.
Also:
>showed how you can live a virtuous and happy life without having to commit to religion
I could say the exact same thing about Marx, Voltaire and Dawkins, and that doesn't necessarily make any of them right.
More over, the notions of virtue on Aristotle and Plato are not equal, so which is it?

This is a low tier bait made by someone who obviously does not read philosohpy, made to trigger some christian brainlets who also do not read. We have this thread every day and it's getting old, go do it somewhere else.

[Anonymous No.15194890]

>>15194789
16, why?

[Anonymous No.15194923]

>>15194843
> By the way you can't have true Christianity without a literal Genesis so no you can't just omit something like that

Explain to me why. It is nothing new that the primeval story is to be interpreted symbolic. The Genesis story is extremely similar to that in the Enuma Eilish, which is no doubt older. The point of Gensis was to show other tribes and religious people the theological difference between the monotheistic judaism, and the polytheistic religions that was in the middle east. Look up any commentary on the Torah, and this is clear. The fact that it is true doesn't even "debunk" Christianity or Judaism either. It's just a made up story to show how they believe God is, just like the Book of Job is not real at all, but is able to pedagogicaly teach us something about God.

Please tell me why I need to interpret the Genesis literally.

[Anonymous No.15194934]

>>15194923
>Please tell me why I need to interpret the Genesis literally.
Because faggots on this board believe that the five solae affect all of christianity.

[Anonymous No.15194938]

>>15194923
Paul says that by being born into Adam we are born to die by his act of original sin. We need Christ to redeem us from Adam. If the story of gensis is not literal then what is it we need real redemption from?

[Anonymous No.15194947]

>>15194923
Because the church father's, Christ, and the Bible all interpret it literally. I am not concerned with an "older" but similar story or an outsiders interpretation of the text. Just to be clear, this doesn't mean Genesis doesn't have types or allegory.

[Anonymous No.15194955]

>>15194876
> when other anon asked him to mention 5 books he evaded the question
I didn't evade it, I simple asked if it really mattered. Whether or not I have a proper argument or not shouldn't necesarrily be depent on how many books I've read.

And I can also honestly answer the question. I've read the Symposium, and am currently reading the Republic (on book 7). Other than that I am to a certain degree familiar with Aristotles, and I've read articles on both where their philosophies are described. I do not claim anywhere that I am an expert on both and no everything, but I believe that asking questions like this are more fruitful than thinking about my questions alone. I hope you can agree.

[Anonymous No.15194956]

>>15194947
Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Augustine all interpreted it metaphorically

[Anonymous No.15194967]

>>15194046
Both of them believed in God. I'm guessing you haven't read either of them.

[Anonymous No.15194973]

>>15194938
> If the story of gensis is not literal then what is it we need real redemption from?

It is allegorical for humans developing conscience and awareness of their actions. Once humans had the cognitive ability to be conscious, we understood that certain actions lead towards a bad life, and some actions lead towards a good life. The OT testament defintion of sin is different than a lot of Christians today believe. It means missing the mark, not getting the point. Where Christ comes in, is that you can follow his guide on how to live virtous, and you can stop missing the mark, taking control over your actions and doing what Jesus proved you can do to live without the bad.

[Anonymous No.15194978]

>>15194923
jesus christ, read anything from any church father on genesis, or anything from any theologian on it

[Anonymous No.15194986]

>>15194978
Great reply anon. You showed I was wrong and certainly convinced me! Now I am a tradcath biblist. Based and redpilled.

[Anonymous No.15194993]

>>15194046

Aristotle was basically God's dad. Fuck off and actually read.

[Anonymous No.15194998]

>>15194973
Paul tells us that we need to do more than just imitate Christ but to also be redeemed from the flesh altogether into a new spirituality, and this can be done only by the gift of Spirit.

[Anonymous No.15195002]

>>15194923
>>15194956
read the chapter two and three of Lossky's Orthodox theology, it is like 15 pages each chapter

[Anonymous No.15195016]

>>15194986
>if you don't post it here i am still right

[Anonymous No.15195021]

>>15194046
They are too busy prepping the BVLL for their wives

[Anonymous No.15195024]

>>15194956
Augustine while had some interesting opinions on Genesis did not interpret Genesis metaphorical. This is a very common mistake. Origen was condemned as a heretic and was constantly critiqued by other church father's. And I'm personally not sure about Clement of Alexandria's position on Genesis or his reception by the church of his thoughts on Genesis. All that being said, it is still interpreted in the Bible as literal
>>15194973
There was no death before the fall.

[Anonymous No.15195055]

>>15195002
Thanks for the rec, will add to my list. Do you know of any free copies online?
>>15194986
You cant expect to be spoonfed 2000 years worth of theology anon. In order to have any fruitful discussion of the topic you need at least a basic background on the subejct. You may as well be asking someone to explain calculus when you don't know arithmetic. The fact that it seems like you want to argue rather than even learn makes it more absurd. How do you intend to argue a subject whose basic matter you havent read?
The fact that some anons have given you reading suggestions is great. You asked a specific question and you've been direcred to a very particular source which answers exactly that. If you genuinely want to understand, you would be compiling a reading list right now.

[Anonymous No.15195131]

>>15195055
you can find it on libgen

[Anonymous No.15195149]

>>15194967
Impressive lack of reading comprehension

[Anonymous No.15195167]

>>15194466
Yes but why? What undergirds justice? Plato offers nothing except itself.

[Anonymous No.15195193]

>>15195167
t. didn’t read Plato

[Anonymous No.15195224]

>>15195055
> If you genuinely want to understand, you would be compiling a reading list right now.

I've bookmarked the page so I don't lose the recommendations, and sincerely thanked everyone who comes with suggestions. I genuinely want to understand.

Giving some context will probably make it more clear why I am asking this. I grew up in a Christian home, being a part of a more modern, charismatic, free church. I don't know how familiar you are with these types of churches, but they are more based on just feeling good about being Christian, and just recieving God's salvation without minimal effort. They are in a sense, theologically and philosophically dead. I left the church believing that all denominations are like that, and that Christianity is basically a cope. However, in the last years I've learnt that I am rather wrong about that, and the more traditional churches are almost a completely different religion to what I originally was familiar with. I've since then started to read the Bible, and also getting more into philosophy. Getting to know churches I learnt that Plato and Aristotle play a special role, atleast in Catholic and Orthodox theology. Knowing this made me wonder how they justify lending so much from non-Christian philosophy. And here we are. I am just trying to deepen my understanding of something I have been greatly wrong about my whole life because of my upbringing. I hope you can agree that doing this is better than staying ignorant.

[Anonymous No.15195253]

>>15194046
Socrates specifically talks about belief in an afterlife in Phaedo and can be seen as agnostic at the end of Apology. They weren't Christian but also they weren't irreligious.

[Anonymous No.15195267]

>>15194129
And that makes it true? Come on.

[Anonymous No.15195299]

>>15194286
He means Christianity as a religion, not every individual Christian.

[Anonymous No.15195309]

>>15194304
Socrates believed in a higher up but was sceptical of Paganism for being inconsistent (Euthyphro). Doesn't make him a Christian necessarily.

[Anonymous No.15195311]

>>15195224
I appreciate the explanation. I'm fortunate enough to have found a church which emphasizes living a sin free life and major church involvement. These churches do still exist, so dont give up hope. Be patient with God and remain in prayer and you will delivered into good hands.
I personally had an issue with the systematic greek philosophy having given shape to christianity for a while myself. I even made a thread about it months ago. I think in Romans 1 it is stated that God has made Himself known through the glory of His creation. I would cite this to say that natural theology can be justified because the created world is His creation and you will see signs of His glory present in it. But of course, natural theology always must give way to revelation, and it is that matter of revelation that makes Christianity special and above philosophy. St Clement used Pauls example of Hagar and Sarah in Galatians to drae a parallel between the Law as having prepared the Jews and philosophy having prepared the Greeks for God's incarnation. This is where the idea of philosophy as the handmaiden to religion comes from. When we view philosophy as the handmaiden to revelation, we can be less disturbed by its influence. I would reccomend you look into Philo of Alexandria as an early form of syncretism to get a better grasp on the relationship between faith and reason.

[Anonymous No.15195320]

>>15194392
Yes and in Gorgias too. He says on Judgment Day three demons come and send the evil to a Hellish world.

[Anonymous No.15195322]

>>15194046
>>15194055
Every single day there’s a million Christian threads. Or, more accurately, a million CHRISTCUX ETERNALLY BRFO threads.

Why? Why are they on /lit/? Why are there so many? Why is this a daily occurrence?

[Anonymous No.15195335]

Doesn't Aquinas himself mention that Plato and Aristotle are the limits of what normal human reason can achieve? Aquinas, and most theologians, have never disputed that the Greeks and the Romans are formidable.

What the Christians assert is that they LACK something. They lack the divine revelation of Jesus Christ, who came into history and communicated about God directly with mankind. The pagans do not have this; they can't have this, because Christ came after most of them were dead. Yet we cannot make sense of the world without Christ, because He has changed everything.

I mean what are you even doing if you're critiquing the Christians and not taking account of Christ Himself? I feel like this is a big problem with /lit/. /lit/ doesn't fucking get this really fundamental, essential element of the Christian project. The big thing that makes Christianity different from the pagans is that it has the person of Jesus Christ, with the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection. If you don't get that you're never going to understand Christianity and Christian thought. Everything powerful and meaningful about Christianity flows from the person of Christ, the Man-God, who lived and died and then lived again. Why does /lit/ have such a hard time wrapping their heads around how important this is?

[Anonymous No.15195356]

>>15195224
>>15195311
I forgot to add that your question is nothing new. Even Dante uses Virgil as his guide through hell to symbolize the connection between christendom and antiquity. He also shows the good pagan philosophers being guided by light of reason and enjoying a comfy spot outside the gates of hell. But they cannot enter heaven because they did not know Christ whose light shines greater than even Reason

[Anonymous No.15195390]

>>15194923

[Anonymous No.15195398]

>>15194956
False. Augustine did not believe in 6 day creation but everything else he thought literal.

[Anonymous No.15195423]

>>15195356
>>15195311

Thanks. I have already planned to read Philo once I am "done" (implying one ever can be) with Plato and Aristotle.

Being in contact with this form of Christianity has just been an extremely weird experience for me. I grew up being told reason has no place in belief, yet the relationship between reason and faith is what seems to be so foundational for so many other churches.

Thanks for your reply anon, it is more appreciated than I can express through some text on the internet.

[Anonymous No.15195684]

>>15194086
This. Most people are too retarded to tolerate ambiguity and mystery in life so they naturally seek out someone to just tell them what to think and how to act. Christian is sufficiently anti-intellectual to facilitate this.

[Anonymous No.15195687]

>>15194046
>ask me how I know you haven't read the Bible

[Anonymous No.15195695]

>>15194240
>Christ is necessary because he carried all of humanities sins
Evidence?

[Anonymous No.15195708]

>>15195695
The Holy Bible :)

[Anonymous No.15195845]

>>15194046
>How do Christians cope?
Righteousness

[Anonymous No.15196138]

>>15194055
It amazes me evil men like you think you could rule the world with your poisoned souls. How do you not see your great flight from reality into a world which does not exist? You exchange virtue for vice, abandon what made Western Civilization reign, yet deem yourselves the preservationists of all you destroy! Absolute madness! You are not patriots and lovers of your societies as you claim, but worms which have ever eaten at the foundations of the world built by your betters. Coming in a form resembling theirs you use it to twist history into a fiction which seeks the victory your vanquished kindred-spirits could not inflict - the destruction of the West, and, indeed, the Soul of Humanity.

BARBAROUS! You're a misanthropic, and self-hating lot. May you be ever impotent in your puerile rage!

[Anonymous No.15196392]

>>15195335
Jesus was not unique, but by historical accident his religion was the one that won out.

Consider Apollonius of Tyana:

>Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special. A supernatural being informed his mother that the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine. He was born miraculously, and he became an unusually precocious young man. As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry, urging his listeners to live, not for the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired, in no small part because he himself was divine. He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead. But at the end of his life he roused opposition, and his enemies delivered him over to the Roman authorities for judgment. Still, after he left this world, he returned to meet his followers in order to convince them that he was not really dead but lived on in the heavenly realm. Later some of his followers wrote books about him.

Besides, I am more interested in the heroism that ordinary people are capable of (the virtues of Plato and Aristotle) rather than supernatural technique.

[Anonymous No.15196401]

>>15196392
This is Not-OP by the way.

[Anonymous No.15196423]

>>15196138

t. worships a dead kike on a stick and kisses nigger feet

[Anonymous No.15196430]

>>15194923

[Anonymous No.15196520]

>>15194046
christianity cured greeks out of their homosexuality.

[Anonymous No.15196531]

>>15194046
Aristotle and Plato also belived in God

[Anonymous No.15196561]

>>15195322
Because the influx of christlarping zoomers flooding the board was annoying, especially because they interpreted any criticism of Christianity as coming from atheists and larpagans, when in fact it was mostly platonists and pantheists they were criticised by. Christians are very much preferable to atheists or pagan larpers though, Christians twist rationality to fit a superstitious dogma but at least the rationality is there and most of their conclusions for societal function and law is good as well.

[Anonymous No.15196578]

>>15196392
>Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special.
yeah this is very common not only among people but in mythologies too; i just dont think it is the same as being foreseen by many different people throughout hundreds of years.

> A supernatural being informed his mother that the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine.
Yeah, divine. Not God.

>he became an unusually precocious young man.
what is even the point of this assertion, how many young men are not considered ''unusually percocious''? this has nothing to do with jesus btw, his childhood is more akin to a spiritual detachment in the process of his own humiliation and emptiness, but not going into details here.

>As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry urging his listeners to live, not for the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired
again, completely ordinary (even in recent history)

>He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead
any written proof by a few witnesses? many are assumed to have performed miracles, etc. even today.

apollonius' life has no precise date, he is considered to have lived after Jesus. I don't doubt his being divine inspired, pythagoreans/platonists are based but yeah it is not even comparable.

[Anonymous No.15196585]

>>15196531
>Believing in God is the same as believing in the personal God of Christianity
Cringe and retarded

[Anonymous No.15196586]

>>15196561
i thought platonists were pagans

[Anonymous No.15196591]

>>15196578
>> A supernatural being informed his mother that the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine.
>Yeah, divine. Not God.

What a stupid distinction. When Christ was conceived it was an angel, not God himself who told Mary. Does that lessen the importance of the revelation? lmfao

[Anonymous No.15196609]

>>15196586
I meant to distinguish between platonists (who utilise rationality) and the kinds of pagans who pretend to believe in Odin or Zeus either because ‘mug ancestors’ or just because they think it’s a cool way to be simultaneously not Christian or atheist

[Anonymous No.15196614]

>>15194240
>The Greeks were pederasts
based

[Anonymous No.15196618]

>>15196591
I'm saying that the child she was to conceive was not merely divine. And all of the process of Annunciation and the Immaculate conception was infused with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

[Anonymous No.15196625]

>>15196586
Socrates criticizes Paganism in Euthyphro for having contradicting Gods and worshipers (and thus morality too).

[Anonymous No.15196630]

>>15196609
ah yes; but have in mind that rationality is completely useless when it comes to mystical/spiritual affairs

[Anonymous No.15196633]

>>15196423
He still lives, and the group to which you refer by petty slur doesn't exist. Rather, you would destroy any and all, even those of far greater contribution to man than yourself and far nobler achievement, who do not share your views and values of the world.

COWARD!

You seek life in an echo chamber! An insulated vacuum where only those who won't challenge you dwell, but it too is a fantasy. The nature of your spiritual breed is division, and you would divide amongst yourselves to the last man, given the chance.

THIEF!

You value a world where the weak use their numbers to empower them in greater sloth to steal the labor of the strong! ENVIOUS PARASITE! You cannot hide behind the gilded white washings of a world which never has nor never will exist!

REMEMBER WHAT YOU ARE! LEARN OF THE HEIGHTS TO WHICH WE'VE BEEN CALLED!

[Anonymous No.15196638]

>>15196625
Plato took great influence from monotheistic religions and may have studied Judaic religion.

He and Aristotle had a very monotheistic view of the world, to the point where God is mentioned many times throughout The Republic.

[Anonymous No.15196647]

>>15196625
ah yes, well remembered; indeed i have to agree with uzdavinys that calling platonists pagans is kinda unfair

[Anonymous No.15196667]

>>15196578
The most important points in relation to Jesus are divinity, miracles, and the resurrection. If you can say the Jesus and Apollonius are "not even comparable" considering all of that, then I have to assume you are either arguing in bad faith, or you have been failed in your education. Regardless, I will not continue the conversation with you.

[Anonymous No.15196686]

>>15196638
If you're hung up on the "one god" thing, how do you know he was not a Zoroastrian or a follower of Atenism?

[Anonymous No.15196730]

1. Why is this not on /his/?
2. A meaningful life is not about abstract philosophy. Theological claims aside, Christ provided a heroic example to live and die after. His life and death as chronicled in the short Gospel of Mark illustrates higher truths better than any Greek nerd could.

[Anonymous No.15196753]

>>15196667
>divinity, miracles, and the resurrection
yes, and this is not different from basically any other divinity of any other mythology whatsoever!
but have you ever heard about theology? christology? economy of the Son? The implications of Jesus are not only ''mythological'' but historical, metaphysical/theological, biblical and all these in the most detailed accounts.

[Anonymous No.15196766]

>>15196730
/his/ is garbage

[Anonymous No.15196813]

>>15196766
this

really there should be a dedicated philosophy/humanities board

[Anonymous No.15196874]

>>15196766
/his/ isn't substantially worse than here.

[Anonymous No.15196909]

>>15194055
ahhahhahhahahhahhahhahahaha dude i dont know why u made me laugh this much

[Anonymous No.15196942]

>>15196633
>Rather, you would destroy any and all, even those of far greater contribution to man than yourself and far nobler achievement, who do not share your views and values of the world.
you’re thinking of christoids my dude

[Anonymous No.15196956]

>>15194129
a cancer "outsurvives" the body, then dies shortly thereafter

[Anonymous No.15197085]

Plato will not make anyone happy, and Aristotle literally says you cannot be virtuous unless you are wealthy.
Christianity obviously offers a wider audience a better deal.

[Anonymous No.15197150]

>>15196909
Cope, Christnigger

[Anonymous No.15197164]

>>15196633

t. worships a dead kike on a stick and kisses nigger feet.

[Anonymous No.15197196]

So Christians, when is that kike coming back? When will the heeb return?
Judgment Day will be any day now, right?

[Anonymous No.15197226]

>>15196138
mwuh mwuh mwuh *slurp slurp slurp*

[Anonymous No.15197230]

>>15197196
probably not in your lifetime, but don't worry, as soon as you die you'll wake up and see

[Anonymous No.15197238]

>>15194283
Everyone on /lit/ is a huge dick about everything.

[Anonymous No.15197377]

>>15194046
Plato would be Christian if he was around for it.

[Anonymous No.15197456]

>>15197377
Plato and Socrates would be cultural Christians but not believe one word of the Bible as actual events that occurred.

[Anonymous No.15197537]

Socrates does not actually claim to know, and himself trusts in divine revelation, however he did a really good job.

Jesus, is the divine revelation and confirms most of what Socrates said and filled in the gaps / inaccuracies.

/thread.

[Anonymous No.15197550]

>>15197085
GO READ AGAIN LOL WTF?

[Anonymous No.15197570]

>>15197230
>>15197196
How do people not know what's going on right now still

[Anonymous No.15197572]

>>15194046
Actually, Plato's thought on the subject includes a God, judgement for sin, and so on. This is part of Plato's hidden doctrines, but its pretty evident with the Myth of Er.

[Anonymous No.15197579]

>>15197085
>Plato will not make anyone happy, and Aristotle literally says you cannot be virtuous unless you are wealthy.
Both believed in a single God and none of this is true wtf

[Anonymous No.15197595]

>>15194046
And Christ is necessary because the end result of Greek philosophy was that ευδαιμονια was only possible with God. This they discovered since all the philosophical schools disagreed about how to attain flourishing, yet they all arrived at flourishing and an unperturbed state of mind despite divergent paths. Consequently they found that no knowledge was possible outside of God.

[Anonymous No.15197601]

>>15194046
read MahaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

[Anonymous No.15197651]

>>15196392
In addition to the good points made by other anons showing how Jesus is indeed different, I will add that the historical evidence for one and the other is comparing the sun to an atom.

[Anonymous No.15199103]

>>15194046
Plato was extremely religious, and the Law in his Republic derives directly from the doctrine of ancient religious beliefs, in fact it is how he justifies that individuals should and must live and die solely for the glory of the state, and it is why he accepted his death so quietly, saying that if that was the decision of the state, then it was the decision of the gods and he was more than happy to abide. Individual lives had literally no value in his eyes.

[Anonymous No.15199414]

>>15197651
This is merely a question of historical contingence. Had Apollonius made a faithful following with the right conditions his history would be much better known and the "historical evidence" would be much more abundant.

[Anonymous No.15199819]

Remind me how Plato’s philosopher achieved knowledge of the forms again? There’s quite the incarnation-sized gap in classical phil.

[Anonymous No.15200276]

>>15194046
How'd we cope? Our theologians went ahead and ripped their ideas, refined them and mixed them with Jesus.

[Anonymous No.15200465]

>>15194046

The Greeks made many important contributions, but they only at best set the stage for Christianity. Virtue, they agree, consists in pursuing the highest good, but they do not supply sufficient means to reach this goal. Plato emphasises unity with the divine at the expense of our material nature (cf. Phaedo), and Aristotle commendably establishes the desire to be with God as our ultimate final end in this world (cf. Eudemian Ethics). Death and human finitude inevitably limit and confound the project of true virtue. They limit the love we give to others by consideration of that finitude, they make self-sacrifice either unintelligible or inhuman, they have no scope for affirming the infinite dignity of every human soul, since everyone is doomed to have their path toward the infinite good cut short.

Plato and Aristotle are great friends of Christianity because there is no better demonstration of the human paradox: the loftiness of our highest aims, and the utter inadequacy of human power to reach them.

Christ embodies the possibility of union with God which is both complete and does not compromise our humanity- eternal life, the perfect good. If the perfect good is achievable, indeed, is given gratuitously, then the ethical project is infinitely expanded: the master-principle is not prudence, but love which survives even death. If this beatitude is obtained through faith, then not only the intellectuals and the lucky, but high and low alike, must join in humility and solidarity to pursue it. Justice is not in vain, but the very arc of the universe. We are not orphans left to our own devices, dead in our limitations, but alive through he who is the complete human good. In the assurance that the infinite good is attainable in time and history by God's grace- in short, by introducing the ultimate eschatology of human affairs- Christ orients the human the human soul toward its destiny in a way greater than Plato and Aristotle ever could.