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/lit/ - Literature

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15168446 No.15168446 [Reply] [Original]

>America’s culture had a uniquely brutal and alienating way of brainwashing its males from an early age into all kinds of damaging beliefs and superstitions about what being a so-called ‘real man’ was, such as competitiveness instead of concert, winning at all costs, dominating others through intelligence or will, being strong, not showing your true emotions, depending on others seeing you as a real man in order to reassure yourself of your manhood, seeing your own value solely in terms of accomplishments, being obsessed with your career or income, feeling as if you were constantly being judged or on display, etc.

Was he right anons?

>> No.15168452

Yes

>> No.15168454

>>15168446
Yes, but it was also his suicidal incel manifest, so take it as a grain of salt

>> No.15168472

>>15168446
To a point, he reduced the larger issue down to just a select group, he gives a much wider and more thurough/accurate treatment in Infinite Jest.

>> No.15168484

>>15168446
>America's culture
And every other culture in the world, almost makes you wonder if there's a reason for it.

>> No.15168508

>>15168446
>American culture
Why assume this is a particularly American phenomenon? This sounds like the general conclusion of evolutionary psychology among pretty much all cultures.

>> No.15168523

>>15168446
I don't completely disagree with him but here's my hangup with all of this, maybe you bros can talk me down from this ledge-
Considering that the only way we have to affect/reach each other is through the material world which mediates all of our transcendental minds, what measure of your value is there besides accomplishments?
What else have you ever actually done, exactly?
Sure everyone's got an inherent worth in a human dignity, decency kind of way. But other than that, what value do we bring if we are not creating that value through actions otherwise known as accomplishments?
I first caught onto this line of thought when I was inundated with a lot of "very smart but low achiever" type dudes in my general vicinity, and then saw a bunch of incels who feel they should be romantically valued despite being ugly, poor, and unable to contribute even basic kindness to a relationship due to their crippling insecurities.
So putting aside the baseline inherent worth of every human being, what are we if not our actions? What value do we have if not our accomplishments?

>> No.15168537

>>15168508
Perhaps because he was speaking from what he had personal knowledge of and choose not to make assumptions about the entire world based off his limited first hand experience with growing up in other parts of the world?

>> No.15168544

>>15168537
By claiming it as an American phenom he actually is making a claim about the rest of the world.

>> No.15168551

>>15168537
based

>> No.15168556

>>15168508
This. Mostly imperialist-warmongering ones.

>> No.15168564

>>15168523
>what measure of your value is there besides accomplishments
None, but he was talking about being measured by the societal yard stick for all too see. There are other types of accomplishments.

>> No.15168592

>>15168537
Ok I could understand that.

>>15168556
.... no, the same basic mechanics apply to tribal, eastern, pre-domestic, domestic, and post domestic cultures too.

>> No.15168595

>>15168446
this just describes most primitive societies, america being one of them

>> No.15168630

>>15168484
>>15168508
>>15168544
>>15168556
>>15168595
OP here. Sure, some of it is just the product of the natural behavior of all men clashing with modern life, but the pattern he describes is far more prevalent in the West. Rising depression, substance abuse, suicide rates among men along with other factors show the suffering here is a lot more pronounced. America in particular is the most individualistic, every-man-for-himself country in the world.

The obsession with accomplishments, career, income, etc. that he mentions is definitely a new phenomenon. I think more collectivized cultures in the East don't suffer from this problem to quite the same extent.

>>15168592
Those cultures are nowhere near as individualistic or materialistic as ours. The way we define "status" is radically different.

>> No.15168636

>>15168508
>evolutionary psychology
>>>/x/

>> No.15168639

>>15168446
Oh great, another "masculinity" thread

>>15168508
Evo psych is garbage

>> No.15168650

>>15168446
No, he mixes genuinely manly practices with american zog brainwashing which is also directed to both men and women, not only men

>> No.15168660

>>15168446
Yes. Though he forgot how it's also dripping with barely contained homoeroticism.

>> No.15168666

>>15168650
No, he makes no juedgement about the practices themselves, he is talking about how society determines worth through such acts.

>> No.15168668

>>15168630
>Those cultures are nowhere near as individualistic or materialistic as ours
Do you have a single fact to back that up?

>> No.15168758

>>15168630
Ok, but I would say it’s just a different manifestation of the same trend under unique socio-material conditions. I don’t disagree, but the quote is vague enough to describe most any society and the phenomenon of men competing over status.

>> No.15168775

>>15168668
I mean, is it a controversial statement to say Chinese culture (just using one example) is more traditional, culturally conservative, and family-oriented/collectivist than ours? Confucianism, which values the greater good over the individual, is the cornerstone of these societies. I think that conclusion comes from a sound observation rather than some statistical analysis like you're suggesting...

>> No.15168776

Our biggest mistake was telling men they can't cry. If Odysseus, Jesus, and Hector could cry then so can every man weaker than them.

>> No.15168777

>>15168639
Even in a non psych lens (not my primary cup of tea anyways) the quote is rather universally applicable. I’d say the biggest factor of change is how communication and in-group put-group relations is so much more dynamic with media and the internet. There was a level of common experience that was more localized through most of human history that gradually then suddenly changed with the slow integration of printing to newspapers, to television, to the complex of the internet.

>> No.15168787

>>15168775
Their* society, I was referring to Chinese culture rather than all Eastern ones re: Confucianism

>> No.15168790

>>15168630
>America in particular is the most individualistic, every-man-for-himself country in the world.
how do you even qualify a statement like that?

>> No.15168810

>>15168775
If individualism is a wide trend then it is a form of collectivity. Is it a wide spread maxim? Yes. An antithesis is still a thesis.

>> No.15168851

>>15168775
>Confucianism, which values the greater good over the individual, is the cornerstone of these societies
China doesn't give a shit about the great good though. The western world is far more concerned with the greater good.

>> No.15168883

>>15168790
Qualify it how, with some kind of objective statistics? Again, these are observations. Compare America to Europe in terms of its profit-driven economy, low public spending, healthcare system, social safety nets, infrastructure, labor/union laws and they paint a pretty clear picture. I'm not sure why this point is being taken so seriously.

>> No.15168896
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15168896

no wonder this pussy killed himself. all these negatives he is ascribing are absolutely fundamental to any team sport or physical endeavor.

>> No.15168906

>>15168851
I don't know if this is bait. The lack of Chinese individual liberties and their general submission to the CCP, along with a whole load of other things, suggest otherwise. But I'm not trying to get overly political so we can agree to disagree, I don't care.

>> No.15168911

>>15168851
>China doesn't give a shit about the great good though.
i think it gives a shit about the greater chinese good

>> No.15168929

>>15168906
>The lack of Chinese individual liberties and their general submission to the CCP
Yup, submitting to a totalitarian government is sure working towards the greater good, you fucking complete retard,.

>> No.15168931

>>15168810
Well sure, any wide spread trend or pattern across a culture is technically collective w/r/t said culture. I think you're missing DFW's point though, it's not an argument about the kind of abstract semantic debate you're bringing up.

>> No.15168947

>>15168851
So the western world shows how much it cares about the greater good by turning a country that does not care about the great good into an economic and military superpower?

>> No.15168952

>>15168484
Other cultures have perverse notions of manliness. The thing about American conceptions of manliness is they’re all taken to extremes despite only being surface deep. It’s a bit surprising to see people disagree with this sentiment on a literature board of all places since literature is one of the very things that American culture long deemed effeminate and gay.

>> No.15168953

>>15168929
Now you just seem upset. I would echo what this >>15168911 anon says but I don't even see a point in this anymore. Idk maybe you'll find a better audience over at /pol/

>> No.15168957

>>15168952
Less perverse*

>> No.15168965

>>15168947
Look at how many westerners whine about climate change and african poverty and all sorts of stupid shit.

>> No.15168989

>>15168776
American men don’t cry just because of other men. American men don’t cry because American women find it annoying. I cried in front of my long time girlfriend once after a family member was killed. She told me she wasn’t interested in me anymore after that and broke up with me soon after. I obviously moved on but my point is the pressure is there from moms, sisters, girlfriends, etc. American culture somehow tells them to take the tough man thing to an extreme where it goes beyond a man merely being a cry baby to wanting men to not even cry when they tragically lose someone they love. It’s really quite a perverse culture and that was honestly one of the events that woke me up to the realities of American culture and women.

>> No.15168993

>>15168851
>filling the Jews pockets with as much money as possible while eroding all identity is the "greater good"
At least the Chinese communist party claims to represent the people. The Western 1% does not even pretend anymore.

>> No.15168998

>>15168989
It's not just American women that find it annoying. Most women want a stoic, emotionless robot who just provides.

>> No.15169003
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15169003

>>15168947
>conflating greater good of its own government power and influence with greater good of the whole world

>> No.15169005

How do Euros feel about Americans moving “home” if they’re disgusted with American “culture”?

>> No.15169013

>>15168931
I think it is though. It’s an ideology that follows the same tenets of ones considered “collective”. It’s implicitly followed by the people and deviation from it meets with implicit and explicit repercussions from the people and the governance.

I agree that it has unique aspects, but it’s folly to think it’s diometricly opposed to “collectivism”. It still operates under the same sphere of humanities tendency for social conformity.

>> No.15169020

>>15168989
Did she say she wasn't interested because she saw you cry?

>> No.15169023

>>15168998
Sure, but it’s almost impossible to tell to what extent Americanism has sunk its fangs into world cultures and made them this way. America’s chief export is its disgusting and profane views of life and unwavering belief in the socioeconomic myth elevated above all other values.

>> No.15169024

>>15168883
You can't really come to these conclusions about culture and individuals when the circumstances in those nations are so different.

For example, when two nations have radically different rates of heart disease from obesity, you can't say that the people wouldn't feel differently about universal healthcare if the situation in their country was different.

>> No.15169036

>>15169020
Not in those words, but yes.

>> No.15169047

>>15168993
We're not talking about the 1%, we're talking about the culture which includes everyone.

>> No.15169048

>>15168965
And? Look at how many westerners feed the horrible environmental practices of China. Greater good indeed!.

>>15169003
No, read again. Should have known better than to use irony in a DFW thread.

>> No.15169057

on a /lit/ board and people think "ThE WhoLe WoRLD iS LIkE ThAt"

have any of you read a book through to the end?

>> No.15169064

>>15169048
>And? Look at how many westerners feed the horrible environmental practices of China. Greater good indeed!.
Are you suggesting the Chinese don't feed those practices? What the fuck on you on about?

>> No.15169073

>>15168446
Damn, Bret Michaels said this?

>> No.15169087

>>15168446
he is right except...why is it a bad thing?
that sounds like a functioning society.
where would we be if all men turned into pretentious navel-gazers?
if nobody started businesses or joined the sheriffs department?
yes, as a man. people are judging you. all the time. and you're doing the same.

also, this is a perfect example of pointless ant-America rhetoric. every country is "guilty" of keeping up with the joneses.

>> No.15169093

>>15169064
I did not suggest any such thing. Environmentalists continue to support China by purchasings good made in or made with Chinese materials and at the same time they shut down any attempt to do things like mining in US where even worst case mining practices are light years ahead of the practices of China. Not in my backyard as their slogan goes.

>> No.15169144

>>15169093
Well I didn't say the west were paragons of the greater good, I said they cared about it way more than China and I stand by that.

>> No.15169170

>>15169013
If you look at the bigger picture, yes every society has collective norms that most people conform to, but how those norms impact the individual itself is wildly different. DFW is referring to how our "collective" ones are hurting individual American men. And he's suggesting it's very different from the ways that more traditional non-Western cultures view masculinity. Our points are not mutually exclusive

>> No.15169184

>>15169073
underrated reply.

DFW was such a simp

>> No.15169191

>>15169048
Oh I thought you were replying to someone else and supporting the anon saying China didn't have a conformist culture, my bad. I'm not a complete "muh sincerity" fag don't worry.

>> No.15169208

>>15169170
I get that, but the quote doesn’t really spec to that in specific. Anyways, the modern/postmodern angst that he seems to be trying to point to seems to be just that, not specificity western , but modern. I would say that pre French Revolution Europe was more similar fundimentally to the east than it is to the concerns of men today.

>> No.15169229

>>15169184
>DFW was such a simp

How?

>> No.15169269

>>15169191
>the anon saying China didn't have a conformist culture

No one said this.

>> No.15169321

>>15169269
That's pretty much what >>15168851 and >>15168929 implied. Conformism and Confucianism/collectivism aren't the same per se but go hand in hand especially in this case

>> No.15169367

>>15168508
It's a pseud thing to do.

>> No.15169389

>>15169321
They're unrelated. Both being a conformist and nonconformist can be in the interest of the greater good. I would never said China isn't conformist.

>> No.15169395

>>15169229
He simped for one woman for a good portion of his adult life

>> No.15169397

>>15168508
It's not only American but it isn't universal at all. See how ideas of masculinity changed in France and Germany between the 18h and 19th century.

>> No.15169475

>>15169087
Obsession with career and money doesn't seem healthy. It also has little to do with the sheriff department, if anything DFW's assessment seems more geared toward high end white collar professions in advertising, marketing, finance.

>> No.15169489

>>15168537
This

>> No.15169695

>>15168523
>what measure of value is there besides accomplishments?
Measure of value to whom, anon? Certainly your value to another person or to a collective group is all relative. The characteristics by which one is judged differs when referring to your child, your potential mate, your spouse, your parents, your clergyman, an politician, an economist, etc.
If your value in this world is so relative and determined on so many scales, they only options you truly have are to either ignore your personal value altogether (easy difficulty - hell), adopt the value system(s) of another (medium difficulty - temporary heaven, inevitable hell), or develop you're own value system and stick to it (hard, ambiguous, but truly the path to heaven on earth).

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

>> No.15169701

>>15169695
Some grammatical errors, ignore them.

>> No.15171004

I mean, he's right. I don't know why everyone's so obsessed over the fact he mentioned America but even if you want to focus on that, he has a point.

We have a very peculiar culture here that glorifies the profit motive, loud and anti-social behavior, shameless vanity, and many other forms of "degeneracy" (hate using that word but if the shoe fits, it fits) more so than other European countries. One result from this concoction is that it promotes a very perverse concept of masculinity.

All Western nations have some form of "degeneracy" but most, like Canada, still value humble, hard working people at the end of the day. American pop culture spits on that sort of lifestyle.

>> No.15171025

>>15168508
There are plenty of countries that have a more balanced concept of masculinity

>> No.15171882

teds a whiny bitch and all but at least hes not as bad as dfw

>> No.15171912

>>15168952
True. Eastern philosophy is good because it recognizes the importance of the feminine. Western masculinity is based in Christianity which didn't really get that far (yet)

>> No.15172039

>>15168446
>dominating others through intelligence or will
This part is especially relevant, the other stuff has eased somewhat

>> No.15172989

>>15168446
Imagine writing that many words without a period. DFW is not a good writer.

>> No.15173183

>>15169397
It is universal, but the manifestation is different. I am aware of what you are talking about and I think a large part of the change was due to the aftermath of the French Revolution and changing ideals of citizenship
>>15171025
>balanced
What does that even mean when it comes to masculinity? Does it simply mean different? Where they are socially permitted to do some things that are generally taboo in the west, but also have taboos that are permitted in the west?

>>15171912
I don’t think you know what you are talking about if you are being this reductionists about both the east and west. I mean, confusionism is t exactly a feminist playground and a lot of notions of equality in the modern sense came out of christiandom.

>> No.15173198

>>15168630
> I think more collectivized cultures in the East don't suffer from this problem to quite the same extent
You'd be wrong.

>> No.15173286

>>15173198
Rates of suicide, depression, substance abuse, etc. among young Western men are so disproportionately high compared to the rest of the world that there's clearly a sign something is wrong over here. There are many more intangible signs of male suffering in the West and if you're on 4chan I'm sure you've seen it, whether you think it's justified or not. (Deaths of despair are also worse in the US than any other Western country, so perhaps DFW wasn't using America arbitrarily after all as others have suggested.)

Where are you finding any issues even remotely similar to this suggesting perceptions of masculinity are hurting those in the East?

>> No.15173294

>>15173286
>Rates of suicide
Ya see jap land?

>> No.15173426

>>15173294
High academic and family pressure, brutal work culture, steep decline in relationships/marriages, economic issues caused by lost 20 years, etc. are the primary factors. Very, VERY different.

Before we go back and forth with statistics like this, let's take a step back and address the OP topic: do you really the emphasis on and cultural attitudes towards masculinity in Japan, in any way, resembles that of America?

The unrealistic ideal of the successful and respectable American man in pop culture versus the ideal of the successful Japanese man is so different I don't even know where to begin.

>> No.15173538

>>15168446
>Was he right anons?
For decadent urbanite New England WASPs, maybe.

>>15168896
>are absolutely fundamental to any team sport or physical endeavor
No avoiding this

>>15168989
Boys don't cry trope is a time honored Puritan legacy, and good practice in general.

>>15169087
>he is right except...why is it a bad thing?
>that sounds like a functioning society.
I lol'd. Why yes . . . yes it does

>>15171004
>We have a very peculiar culture here that glorifies the profit motive, loud and anti-social behavior, shameless vanity, and many other forms of "degeneracy" (hate using that word but if the shoe fits, it fits)
Woah, cool it with the anti-banker jokes anon

>> No.15173651

>>15168537
He grew up in the entire USA?

>> No.15173689

>>15168630
I think his use of the word “brutal” is a little strong though, because you can at least comfortably kill yourself— and painlessly— if it doesn’t work out.

>> No.15173716

>>15173426
>The West has more suicides than anyone else except Jap land. If you bring up another country I will move the goal posts again.

>> No.15173731

>all these people falling for the age-old ruse of quoting John Green with a picture of David Foster Wallace