What's your opinion on the "antinatalist" movement and its philosophy? Is there an academic that has debunked Benatar?

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Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:30:09 2020 No.15148457 [Reply] [Original]

What's your opinion on the "antinatalist" movement and its philosophy?

Is there an academic that has debunked Benatar?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:40:32 2020 No.15148525 >>15148457 >What's your opinion on the "antinatalist" movement and its philosophy? >philosophy Philosophy means "the love of wisdom", something that antinatalists are entirely devoid of. It's a cope for depressed losers.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:45:26 2020 No.15148543

>>15148457
The entire thing depends on what sorts of values you assign to concepts like suffering, meaning, and what proportions of them you think exist in life. It hardly has to be said that those are extremely subjective concepts, or if not subjective ambiguous and hard to conclusively place in any system of thought.

If the anitnatalist really feels that life is awful and that their child would likely feel the same way then maybe they are justified. But they would have to be very sure that their child would in fact feel that way.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:47:24 2020 No.15148555 >>15148457 antinatalists are usually edgy, uneducated retards. I think very poorly of anyone who labels themself as such.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:47:48 2020 No.15148557 >>15148457 A nothingburguer. A fringe movement that lacks the means of becoming mainstream

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:48:32 2020 No.15148564 >>15148457 >movement

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:49:02 2020 No.15148573
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>>15148457
The anti-natalist, having accomplished nothing of worth in his own life and finding no meaning in life, subconsciously extends his experience to everyone else, and assumes that they ultimately feel the same. He is the most base and pathetic creature, denying life and existence itself in the ultimate simp cope.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:54:49 2020 No.15148612 >>15148457 Benatar refutes himself by not committing suicide

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 10:58:06 2020 No.15148636 What is there to debunk? His most famous book is based on cognitive dissonance

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 13:46:58 2020 No.15149731 Most antinatalists are lonely women in their late 30s or older. Tells you everything you need to know about this "philosophy"

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:01:36 2020 No.15149826 >>15148457 >argument of consent fails >argument of asymmetry fails Is there something else to debunk?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:18:04 2020 No.15149955 >>15148612 There's a rumor he even has children.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:30:24 2020 No.15150048

being antinatalist only makes sense
it would be better if nothing existed, or at least if life or consciousness didn't exist.
It's only the logical conclusion to recognizing that everything is dull, pointless and that all people are doing in life is coping with their existential dread
People here don't like antinatalism because it would be like admitting defeat and they're terrified of being losers, even on the internet.
So they're larping, pretending to be some kind of nietzschean hero laughing in the face of destiny, but later tonight they'll post a thread about how depressed they are and how nothing in their life makes sense
bunch of pussies

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:36:43 2020 No.15150089 >>15148525 what is wisdom?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:37:49 2020 No.15150100 >>15148457 >Is there an academic that has debunked Benatar? No.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:44:06 2020 No.15150149 >>15150048 >It's only the logical conclusion to recognizing that everything is dull, pointless and that all people are doing in life is coping with their existential dread I reject these premises.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:46:21 2020 No.15150170

>>15148457
Like many other positions from the 201Xs, it has always existed in some form or another in minuscule numbers. It's an instinctual opinion based on a depressive character, the philosophical basis for it is flimsy and doesn't hold up to it's own internal logic. So what it ultimately amounts to is some sad misanthrope guy saying "I don't want to have kids" which is fine with me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:53:43 2020 No.15150225 >>15150170 >the philosophical basis for it is flimsy and doesn't hold up to it's own internal logic Wow i'm very impressed that you refuted an entire body of scholarship in one sentence, I will now proceed to have 10 children.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:54:48 2020 No.15150234 Convincing yourself you are an antinatalist because you failed to have a life with children isn't the best way to cope with that situation, there are much healthier more positive alternatives

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 14:56:10 2020 No.15150248 >>15150048 better make the most of your life

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:01:19 2020 No.15150293

Its what i like to call
transient philosophy

Mainly that this beleif only seems to be temporary. Or is something to build a new philosophy upon.

Like nihilism, post modernism, transcendental movements, anti-natalist philosophy must exist ironically so that we may have a chance to voice what lacan would call our drive to destruction.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:02:12 2020 No.15150300

>>15150225
Ha! An antinatalist with tons of kids.
You kid yourself thinking there's a scholarly tradition justifying your decisions/sad life
You kid yourself thinking anyone cares whether you have kids besides your shitty mom
You kid yourself in replying to this post assuming I'm going to bother to read it and respond again

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:03:54 2020 No.15150312 >>15150048 This is the correct attitude, good job. But as always: >The people hated Ligotti, for he told them the truth

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:08:00 2020 No.15150348 >>15148457 Seems quite ridiculous.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:10:58 2020 No.15150372 >>15150300 Antinatalism has been around since the Greeks dude, you would know that if you actually read them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:24:19 2020 No.15150474 >>15150048 very based

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:30:39 2020 No.15150531

>>15150048
My life is not dull and pointless, which automatically refutes everything you said. You will do much better to admit that you yourself are unhappy rather than ascribing unhappiness to consciousness itself. By doing that, you are already removing yourself from the possibility of ever becoming happy

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 15:53:42 2020 No.15150726 If evil is privation then non being is the ultimate privation and therefore the ultimate evil. Not having as many kids as possible is therefore the worst thing you can do.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:06:01 2020 No.15150822 >>15150726 What about people who can't physically conceive, were they put here specifically to be evil?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:07:13 2020 No.15150834 >>15148457 It's trash and makes no sense.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:29:30 2020 No.15151009

>>15148457
I read in this one book about how Haitian slave mothers would kill their children to save them from a life of slavery. To me this represents the idea that it is possible to live in conditions not conscionably worth bringing a child into. Antinatalism is justified if such conditions can be said to exist and if conscious is a deciding factor in reproduction.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:31:27 2020 No.15151021 >>15150726 >If evil is privation then non being is the ultimate privation Does not follow

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:34:44 2020 No.15151046 >>15150048 Ligotti(pbuh) is absolutely right & has retroactively refuted all others.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:39:11 2020 No.15151076

>>15150531
No, but it will be. What, you think you'll be young forever? Wait til you get cancer at 50, then don't actually die until 65, merely spend years in progressively escalating pain & boredom. You being one of the pampered & fortunate few right now doesn't negate the fact that are guaranteed to still die (and probably suffer in the process). What absolute cope - "Oh sure the majority of humanity suffers, but I personally am comfy, thus is all existence affirmed through my majesty".

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:41:51 2020 No.15151098 >>15151076 >not knowing how to age Pleb

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:43:40 2020 No.15151112 >>15151009 Interesting how those born into their chains hardly notice they are there though, for how can they miss what they never lost?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:44:59 2020 No.15151126

Have only surface level understanding (only watched one video of antinatalist vs peterson and True Detective) but it seemed silly that the guy obviously quantified the amount of suffering and pleasure but refused to own up to it.
In my personal experience in the moments when I feel happy to be alive everything feels clear and life makes perfect sense and when i'm frustrated about life and suffer it's like there is a lesson to be learned there, a part of life to accept and figure out the only cruel part being that i often don't feel like i have the tools to do that consistently and it answers arrive almost randomly if at all. Being present with the feelings helps though.
I live an average life though, can't say about the experience of terminally ill

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:49:51 2020 No.15151162

>>15151076
>wait til you get cancer at 50

This is a redundant argument, because cancer could plausibly be cured and then what? Do you believe life in Logan's Run is permissible, considering that everyone in that society lived happy, comfortable lives full of pleasure before being swiftly snuffed out at the age of 30? Or Brave New World, where living an empirically happy life is the critical imperative of society and its members?

In order to justify anti-natalism you have to argue against existence itself, both contextually and hypothetically. Contextually, let's say you have had a terrible childhood, or that you live in a society where people are forced to suffer a great deal on a daily basis. Perhaps in that context anti-natalism is justifiable. But if a society can be reasonably conceived wherein its members are on the whole well fed, report themselves to be happy, and so on, then what argument do you have for its members not to reproduce, with the historically-backed conviction that life for their children will be even more conducive to happiness and satisfaction?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:57:57 2020 No.15151210 Yes, Benatars entire asymmetry has been completely debunked by Julius Cabrera in his essay regarding Benatars abuse of counterfactuals. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/259/a-criticism-of-benatars-asymmetry-an-abuse-of-counterfactuals

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 16:58:47 2020 No.15151219 >>15151076 I just think that acknowledging your own misery and attempting to fix it will be far more valuable than convincing other people not to breed because you assume their children will be as sad as you

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:01:32 2020 No.15151237 >>15150248 Absolutely based

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:10:23 2020 No.15151311 >>15150248 it's isn't about yourself it's an argument against procreation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:16:03 2020 No.15151350 >>15151210 Isn't Cabrera still an antinatalist though?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:20:51 2020 No.15151388
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>>15150048
>happy people make threads about how they are depressed
Lol no. Imagine thinking your highly subjective, highly temporary emotional state is something that can be extrapolated out onto the entire human race. I'm not saying you can do that with happiness either, but this is what antinatalism is based on, an assumption so unrealistic and patently untrue as to be laughable. Also, you haven't killed yourself or others, and you don't plan to do so. You want to talk about LARPing, then antinatalists are the ultimate LARPers insofar as they can only be alive to promote or discuss antinatalism in the first place. Your entire ideology is refuted by your, yes your, very existence. Not bringing non-existent people into existence isn't "helping" them, because there is no one to help, and this is so obvious I can't believe you retards haven't realized that. You cannot save a person from pain if that person does not exist. Also if I had to guess I'd say you're 16 or 17, right? Wow life must be real hard for a highschooler with no responsibilities. Be glad you're posting this on an anonymous forum so that you're not embarrassing yourself with this shit IRL. Have fun listening to My Chemical Romance, dude

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:25:30 2020 No.15151424 If they will only complain about life troubles, they will be still unconvincing, but tolerable. Yet they want to bring in a ridiculous sophistry which turns their philosophy into something incredibly funny.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:26:57 2020 No.15151438 >>15151076 >Wait til you get cancer at 50 That's only a trouble if you like to live.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:28:19 2020 No.15151447 Antinatalism doesn't solve anything, it just prolongs the misery of finding the answer

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:31:59 2020 No.15151478 >>15151112 Someone always notices

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:32:03 2020 No.15151479 >>15151311 well then, what are the consequences

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:33:38 2020 No.15151491 >>15150225 It's a body of scholarship nobody reads anyway. So if you want to preach it, provide arguments (old or new) and don't expect that others will make more effort than you.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:33:47 2020 No.15151495

How can all the suffering in this world, all the torture and never-ending pain ever be worth it? How can all the deformity and decay ever be worth it? How can all the death, depravity and destruction ever be worth it? How can you nurture innocence and optimism in a machine that runs on blood and meat? How can you look at a happy kid and not think about his fossilized skull buried in the earth underneath a dying sun?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:34:51 2020 No.15151506 >>15151495 lol what a pussy

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:34:54 2020 No.15151509 >>15151388 I'm sure searching for that specific image in one of your numerous 4chan reaction pic folders made you feel really smart, well worth it. I wish i had some too.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:35:23 2020 No.15151511 >>15151495 It is compensated because sometimes you can shitpost and shitposting is fun.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:36:53 2020 No.15151528 Its like the grass is always greener but this is all we got.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:37:41 2020 No.15151537 File: 124 KB, 907x510, 1587141170710.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15151495 Death and destruction are the middle children of glory

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:38:28 2020 No.15151542

>>15151495
>look i wrote this poem with all these scary words that means existence is suffering
Check this out, fag:
Why isn't all the joy and happiness worth it? Why isn't the experience of a fulfilling life, the beauty of nature, a connection to god and spirituality worth it? How can you look at a child laughing and not be filled with the deepest joy imaginable?

See, I can do it too. Tard.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:39:32 2020 No.15151551 >>15151509 You refuted nothing in my post, so I guess you concede.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:42:32 2020 No.15151581 >>15151551 I'm just not interested in debating a midwit, take it as a victory if you wish i'm sure you need it, wouldn't be saving your pathetic images otherwise

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:44:24 2020 No.15151597 >>15151581 >antinatalists hurl weak insults when defeated Life really is suffering for you guys if you get assblasted so easily. Exercise and get some sun, that would be my advice.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:44:33 2020 No.15151601 >>15151537 the children of glory were so fucking beautiful that in the ecstasy of it your daddy hitler pulled the trigger.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:46:32 2020 No.15151623 Benatar's claims literally prove that the world is infinitely good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:46:41 2020 No.15151625 >>15151597 Already did today, but thanks for the advice

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:47:06 2020 No.15151632

>>15151506
be quiet
>>15151511
Not fun enough
>>15151537
There's no glory
>>15151542
There's no joy and happiness without eons of carnage and strife. Every laughing child is paid for with the blood of millions. The child is not smiling because of joy, he's smiling because he doesn't know what awaits him and his progeny

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:49:10 2020 No.15151650 >>15151632 Dude I seriously hope this is bait. If so, it's good bait. If not, seek mental help.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:49:21 2020 No.15151653 >>15151632 shut the fuck up you sissy ass faggot

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:51:44 2020 No.15151678 >>15151650 I thought this thread was about antinatalism and antinatalistic sentiment >>15151653 No

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:53:27 2020 No.15151692 >>15151632 what awaits him exactly

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 17:54:48 2020 No.15151703 >>15151692 Certain death, humiliation and eternal servitude

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:00:58 2020 No.15151757 >>15151678 >I thought this thread was about antinatalism It's about being a "muh depression" tumblr faggot versus a healthy happy person who enjoys life.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:01:00 2020 No.15151759 >>15151703 you sure it isn't just pure oblivion or whatever belief describes as an afterlife

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:01:50 2020 No.15151774 >>15151757 >healthy happy person who enjoys life. On 4chan ?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:07:12 2020 No.15151822 >>15148457 That kind of nihilism is destructive and valueless. Nihilism is something you come through, and when you reach the other end with your meaning then you're an adult

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:07:36 2020 No.15151832 >>15151774 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:08:18 2020 No.15151840 >>15151774 having a life outweighs not having a life

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:10:28 2020 No.15151861

>>15151757
>It's about being a "muh depression" tumblr faggot
are you fucking serious?
there are 6 six active threads related to depression and suicide in the catalog right now. how many happy threads there are right now on the board or on the rest of 4chan? depression/suicidal threads are normal on /lit/ like the rest of 4chan. wojak is the symbol of 4chan youth for a reason stupid faggot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:11:38 2020 No.15151870 >>15151861 >wojak is the symbol of 4chan So is pepe, and pepe is generally happy/joyous/gleeful. Your point?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:17:38 2020 No.15151928 >>15151870 >happy/joyous/gleeful not all the time. just being smug for the taste of little sins not for life. just make a "how you holding up" thread on any board and check the responses for yourself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:20:17 2020 No.15151953 >>15148457 I can't comprehend the antinatalist position. Do they have any friends? Any aspirations? What's the reason they haven't killed themselves yet? The fact that there are antinatalists that are alive kind of refutes the entire position.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:22:10 2020 No.15151974 >>15151953 death is fucking scary. also i don't want to put the burden of my suffering on my family and friends.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:24:59 2020 No.15151990

>>15151974
I'm sure they wouldn't mind as long as you tell them you're an antinatalist. Kind of selfish for them to care anyway. They birthed you, they have to accept the possibility that you could die at any moment, willingly or nonwillingly. The fact that nonexistence > existence is an indisputable fact though. They should be happy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:25:24 2020 No.15151991 >>15151974 >death is fucking scary. Because it makes you stop living.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:27:49 2020 No.15152002 >>15151974 See the antinatalist in his natural habitat (bait threads), BTFO'ing himself as a mating call to others of his kind.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:28:26 2020 No.15152010 >>15151990 >They should be happy. yeah and they will give me bullets as a gift for my next birthday. >>15151991 nah, you're programmed for survival.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:30:03 2020 No.15152023 >>15152002 ?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:30:06 2020 No.15152024 >>15152010 You are programmed for literally everything you do.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:30:14 2020 No.15152026 >>15151974 the correct answer is that suicide is an act of cowardice.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:30:35 2020 No.15152028 >>15152010 >you're programmed for survival But if existence is fundamentally a bad thing, why are we programmed for survival? Hmmmm....

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:31:31 2020 No.15152035 >>15152010 so you're just programmed to be averse to suffering. there's nothing inherently bad about it

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:31:34 2020 No.15152036 >>15152024 Humans are programmed to design aircraft and play videogames?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:32:38 2020 No.15152046 >>15152036 Umm, yes? Try to make an animal (or a feral child) to play videogames, not even talking about aircraft.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:34:13 2020 No.15152057 >>15152046 Humans aren't "programmed" for anything. Evolution has no end goals.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:34:49 2020 No.15152063 >>15152057 Then they are not programmed for survival or reproduction too.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:35:58 2020 No.15152073 >>15152024 denying your programming to procreate is the dead for for programming. >>15152026 true but being against procreation isn't >>15152028 >why are we programmed for survival? lack of self-reflection

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:37:01 2020 No.15152082 >>15152073 *dead end

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:38:04 2020 No.15152090 >>15152035 so suffering and pain aren't not bad?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:38:07 2020 No.15152092

>>15151991
No, it's scary because you don't know what happens after death. If people knew for sure that after death something incredible was waiting for them, most people would probably kill themselves.
Life is a trap because there's no alternative. Death isn't a realistic alternative because people will choose to stick with what they know to be tolerable even if it sucks, especially since they know they will die anyway. Doesn't mean they like living, or that they wish to be alive.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:39:51 2020 No.15152104

>>15151953

No I don't have any friends, I never had any. My only aspiration is to own my own home so I don't have to wagie. Your question is a bit trite, promortalism isn't synonymous with antinatalism, but look up Jiwoon's work if you are interested in that.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:41:08 2020 No.15152115

>>15152092
If death is a full unknown and you can't say that you will be annihilated after that, then time before the birth is also a full unknown and you can't say that you fully didn't exist before that. Then birthing you may be an incredibly good act (if what was before is worse).

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:42:43 2020 No.15152128 >>15152104 yeah I mean it genuinely when I say you should commit suicide

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:44:51 2020 No.15152142

I don't know, to be honest. Do I really want to bring a human being into the world who will inevitably a) suffer and b) die. I'm not sure if the "well bro thats just the human condition" argument is good enough. Surely there's something beautiful and unique about human life and the life of an individual, but..

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:46:59 2020 No.15152154

>>15152090
It's obvious that not suffering is better than suffering and it's even more obvious that existing is better than not existing. Of course you may drop your intuition and try to get the answer from some more fundamental truths. But then you need to both disprove the latter and prove the first (if that's your position).

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:48:03 2020 No.15152162 >>15152142 yeah you shouldn't do it I would kill myself too if I had you as a parent

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:55:13 2020 No.15152214 >>15152115 This is true, if you believe that non existence is somehow more painful than life, then giving life even becomes a duty.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:57:21 2020 No.15152231 >>15152154 >it's even more obvious that existing is better than not existing you can't escape suffering. >not suffering is better than suffering non existence = no suffering therefor good.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 18:59:08 2020 No.15152246
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>>15148457
>my great grandpa
Dead
>my future nonexistent children
Don't exist

>>15148457
They're either brainwashed environmentalist vegans or fart-huffing, self-aggrandizing pessimists with a victim complex and a loose grasp on reality to boot.

>>15149826
>argument of consent
Yep, can't ask a nonexistent entity for consent; there's no analogy to be made with comatose people, because they actually exist. Also, not everyone believes every action requires consent.

>>15150048
Here comes the anti-natalist, shambling from whatever subreddit or facebook group pity party brainwashed him.

>it would be better if nothing existed, or at least if life or consciousness didn't exist.
No it wouldn't, because there wouldn't be anyone or anything to experience that lack of existence/life/consciousness. It's like having a cake and not getting to eat it- it's nice and objective and all, but it's MALIGNANTLY USELESS.

The rest of your post is just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims that beg a whole ton of questions.

>>15150225
Straw man.

>>15150312
This means everyone we hate is telling the truth. What an absurd standard

>>15150372
Greek antinatalism is obsolete and probably mired in Hellenistic religion anyway. Modern anti-natalism and its troupe of pusillanimous philosophers are entirely new heads on the Hydra.

>>15150822
No, because they are incapable of reproduction due to natal complications and thus cannot be faulted, because they did not choose to be this way. They might also be able to artificially inseminate

>>15151076
>No, but it will be
Life has its troughs and peaks. That I will wane in whatever intelligence/muscle I had shouldn't perturb me, as I'll get over it. Also, you imply that it will be- I'd say you're too optimistic in thinking so.

>merely spend years in progressively escalating pain and boredom
Implying I can't still enjoy my hobbies or find peace in something.

>You being one of the pampered & fortunate few right now doesn't negate the fact that are guaranteed to still die
I thought the dead envied the living? Now we're pampered and fortunate? And for those in extreme suffering, death is all the better, so my point still stands.

>Oh sure the majority of humanity suffers, but I personally am comfy, thus is all existence affirmed through my majesty
A baseless caricature. Besides, how will you stop humanity from suffering? Anti-natalism is the comfiest philosophy of all- you just have to abstain from something you already can't get and don't want (sex). Forget going out and helping people or giving to charities, all you need to do is pat yourself on the back at the end of the day for being a "moral person." Even if most stop reproducing, they'll leave more resources for those who want to reproduce. Humanity will rebound, and mass killings will only lead to mass suffering and failure. This is why efilists always dream of a "red button" that erases all life painlessly, to no avail.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:00:11 2020 No.15152251 >>15152231 But non-existence means there is no "you" who is avoiding suffering in the first place. Jesus Christ how retarded can you people be

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:01:39 2020 No.15152258 >>15150048 >everything is dull, pointless >all people are doing in life is coping with their existential dread whole lot of projection going on here

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:02:15 2020 No.15152263 >>15152251 the chance of "you" is obvious

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:04:22 2020 No.15152274 >>15152263 >the chance of "you" is obvious Literally what the actual fuck are you saying. You need to speak coherently if you want people on your side.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:05:44 2020 No.15152286
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>>15148457
David Pearce thinks it's retarded.

https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html

>Radical anti-natalism as a recipe for human extinction will fail because any predisposition to share that bias will be weeded out of the population. Radical anti-natalist ethics is self-defeating: there will always be selection pressure against its practitioners. Complications aside, any predisposition not to have children or to adopt is genetically maladaptive. On a personal level, the decision not to bring more suffering into the world and forgo having children is morally admirable. But voluntary childlessness or adoption is not a global solution to the problem of suffering.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:08:11 2020 No.15152297 >>15148573 Unlike you who accomplished so much of course.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:10:52 2020 No.15152312 >>15152274 all im saying is that there will be a "you" after nine months. and with consciousness there will be inevitable suffering >You need to speak coherently if you want people on your side. i don't give a fuck, it's a personal choice

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:13:14 2020 No.15152324
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>pleasure for the existing is good, pain for the existing is bad, absence of pleasure for the non-existent is not-bad, and absence of pain for the non-existent is good. Therefore, it is claimed, birth is always a harm.
The argument doesn't work because non-existence can't be predicated of anything. It's a contradictio in adjecto. What Benatar and the other anti-natalists are referring to is retroactive non-existence; the condition of which is existence itself. In other words, his argument for non-existence must presuppose existence to work, in which case it isn't actually working at all.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:14:30 2020 No.15152335 >>15152324 You can also use this argument to show that universe is infinitely good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:16:17 2020 No.15152349 File: 47 KB, 512x512, 1411047955731.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] You don't have to be miserable to be an antinatalist. I quite enjoy my life, I just think never having been born would have been preferable.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:16:31 2020 No.15152354 >>15152258 you really think so ?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:17:11 2020 No.15152359 >>15152354 you really ask so ?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:20:52 2020 No.15152389

>>15151495
Another freak, probably from r/antinatalism. All of them regurgitate Immendhamian/youtube comment talking points anyway.

>How can bla bla bla be worth it?
Why does it have to be worth it?

>How can you nurture innocence and optimism in a machine that runs on blood and meat?
There's nothing intrinsically horrifying about blood and meat. Innocence and optimism are nice but, just like pessimism, only transient states.

>How can you look at a happy kid and not think about his fossilized skull buried in the earth underneath a dying sun?
That he will die is not a problem. Hell, if life is such a problem, picturing his skull ought to make me feel relieved, or happy.

>>15151601
Nice generalization. Also, he did it (if he even did) to avoid being captured.

>>15151632
>not fun enough
subjective
>there's no glory
You wouldn't know what glory is like. It's like asking a worm to picture the sun- all he knows it to be is an oppressive, invidious ball of light that irks him and his lowly, venomous pride.

>There's no joy and happiness without eons of carnage and strife. Every laughing child is paid for with the blood of millions. The child is not smiling because of joy, he's smiling because he doesn't know what awaits him and his progeny
Tough shit

>>15151703
>eternal servitude
Nice misrepresentation of heaven; obviously you'd fall prey to such slander because you don't even believe in a heaven. Also, you cherry pick the bad, lowly moments in one's life and claim that this is one's entire life.

>>15151974
>death is fucking scary
If you have an ethical obligation to kill yourself, suck it up. It's easier to stop reproducing than it is to kill yourself, so you are more willing to accept not reproducing than suicide as a necessity.

>>15152010
>programmed for survival
Programmed for reproduction, too. That's the point of life- to pass on genetic material.

>>15152036
Not specifically, but the desire to invent/design really elaborate tools (aircraft, etc) undergirds these actions.

>>15152073
Okay. Now, put on your thinking cap and find a way to deny your programming to survive so you can an hero already.

>>15152092
So if you aren't sure what happens after death, why do you assume from the get-go that there's nothing? This presumption seems to undergird most anti-natalist positions.

>>15152104
If you were to die and go back to nil, you owning a house and living twenty or so more pathetic years on this earth won't be any different from just offing yourself now.

>>15152142
>do I want to...
If you are a Utilitarian, probably not. I'd like to see Utilitarians make arguments against anti-natalism.

>>15152231
No one can experience the lack of suffering in "nonexistence" so it's neither good nor bad. It's not even neutral. It's just an is, not an ought.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:24:54 2020 No.15152423
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>>15152312
But there is no "you" during nonexistence, so nonexistence cannot be better. There might not even be a "you" if you get aborted or are miscarried.

>I don't give a fuck, it's a personal choice
Imagine if I argued with you in a different language.

>>15152349
And you don't have to be happy to be a natalist

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:29:15 2020 No.15152445
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>>15152423

Yeah I agree, probably my antinatalism is less due to philosophical genius and more because my father was an alcoholic who abused me as a child and my mother is a terrible human being.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:29:55 2020 No.15152452 >>15152423 there is no suffering in non-existence so it is better

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:31:31 2020 No.15152465 Antinatalism is the type of movement you promote to people you hate, which is why the media markets it to white people.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:32:28 2020 No.15152471

>>15152389
Either there's something or there's nothing. If there's nothing, life isn't worth it. If there's something and it's less terrible than life, then life isn't worth it, if there's something and it's more terrible than life, then life is worth something.
Statistically, life is more likely to be worth nothing

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:33:34 2020 No.15152483 >>15152445 Then it shouldn't be too hard to argue against you, unless I'm just as plum stupid as you. P.S: Not everyone who's not an AN lives or has lived an easy life, I just don't need pity from anons.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:33:52 2020 No.15152487 >>15152452 Refer to >>15152324

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:36:40 2020 No.15152509 >>15152423 Let's say there is someone whose life is 100% pure suffering. Like hell or no mouth tale, but worse. A lot of people will agree then that nonexistence is better for him. Of course our lives are not that bad, but that's the different matter.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:37:58 2020 No.15152520 >>15152487 how does non-existence can't be predicted? do you remember anything before you were born?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:38:24 2020 No.15152522 >>15152389 Uhhh, hello, based department?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:38:51 2020 No.15152527
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>>15152452
Can you experience the lack of suffering in non-existence?

>>15152465
Benatar is a Jew, and only self-hating environ(mental)ist whites will take his poison to heart. The masses of virile immigrants don't give two shits about his effete "ethics."

>>15152471
> If there's nothing, life isn't worth it
Yes.

>If there's something and it's less terrible than life, then life isn't worth it
Unless living is a prerequisite for that "less terrible something," and there is a pre-existence (you don't start existing upon conception and then go to an afterlife).

> if there's something and it's more terrible than life, then life is worth something.
Yes

Of course, it's not this simple. These possibilities are not all equally likely, and worth is subjective (some call it delusion, but it's still real for those believe in it, or real enough to get them to trudge through a "miserable life").

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:39:13 2020 No.15152529 Just like fags, antinatalists wont be here in 1 generation. Why worry?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:39:17 2020 No.15152531 >>15152389 >It's not even neutral how?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:39:57 2020 No.15152535 >>15152529 ...then why they both are here?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:41:08 2020 No.15152544 >>15152527 >Can you experience the lack of suffering in non-existence? no can you experience anything at all in non-existence?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:42:19 2020 No.15152557
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>>15152509
Argument ad populum. If he dies, he won't exist anymore so there is no "better option." The current options that exists are the best possible option- to reduce suffering from 100% to 99% or even less if possible. You aren't moving from a bad point A to a better point B. You just stop existing after point A.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:43:33 2020 No.15152559 >>15152520 Because that's what non-existence is.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:43:34 2020 No.15152560

>>15152389
>Why does it have to be worth it?
Even some spiel about the glory of kingdom come would be preferable. You might as well tell people to kill themselves if you're going to imply that there's nothing to gain or win

>There's nothing intrinsically horrifying about blood and meat. Innocence and optimism are nice but, just like pessimism, only transient states.
What ideals are you even appealing to here?

>picturing his skull ought to make me feel relieved, or happy.
I'm sure it does

>Tough shit
I just want to make it clear that this is the true picture of the persisting man. A kind of absent-minded reproducing machine. How many died yesterday? Millions? Oh. And how many will die today? Millions? I see. A dull creature trodding through the carnage, his only skill being able to forget it as soon as possible

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:44:50 2020 No.15152568

>>15152557
>Argument ad populum.
So valid?
>If he dies, he won't exist anymore so there is no "better option." The current options that exists are the best possible option- to reduce suffering from 100% to 99% or even less if possible. You aren't moving from a bad point A to a better point B. You just stop existing after point A.
So, to be sure: you claim that stopping someone in ultimate hell to exist isn't good? Do you also claim that knowingly creating a child whose experience will be a 100% pure suffering isn't bad?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:46:01 2020 No.15152576

>>15152527
Well, whether you call it living or not, if what is before or after life is less terrible than life, than surely it is preferable to life.
But yeah as you say it's not this simple, obviously, otherwise everybody would know the answer.
But still, i think antinatalist is a valid position to be in for people who are suffering. It's understandable imo, not total nonsense at all.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:46:06 2020 No.15152577 >>15152527 How do you know Benatar is a Jew? Did you just make that up?

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:46:49 2020 No.15152581

>>15152531
Because it's nonexistence. Only something that exists, from what I've seen, can be considered good/bad/neutral (neutral being a perfect balance between good and bad, something that is rarely seen in real life). What you really want is for your life to get less shitty. It not existing doesn't make it better, just like wiping the chess pieces off the board won't mean you won the game or advanced to a more advantageous position.

>>15152544
No. Therefore it's not better. There is no "you" to experience the lack of suffering/pleasure, so you haven't really done anything by dying and not existing anymore.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:47:57 2020 No.15152594 >>15152581 >just like wiping the chess pieces off the board won't mean you won the game or advanced to a more advantageous position. If you hate playing chess, then it's a good decision.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:50:39 2020 No.15152616 >>15152594 >good decision "Good" here is defined in relation to the rules of the game. Not-playing the game is neither a good nor bad move; it's just not playing the game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:50:53 2020 No.15152619 >>15148457 Often built on a premise it fails to argue for (life isn't worth living), but there's some value in the idea of renouncing childmaking over environmental ethics of overpopulation.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:51:16 2020 No.15152623

>>15152581
>Therefore it's not better.
it is because there isn't any suffering or pain or pleasure or anything at all. so good.

>There is no "you" to experience the lack of suffering/pleasure, so you haven't really done anything by dying and not existing anymore.
there will be a "you" after nine months. and with consciousness there will be suffering.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:52:04 2020 No.15152625 >>15152616 Yet it's a clearly good decision, so trying to use only the rules of the game is obviously wrong.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:54:34 2020 No.15152645

>>15152577
Benatar is a Jewish name and he alludes to several Jewish jokes. It's an approximation at best, but food for thought.

>>15152560
>I just want to make it clear that this is the true picture of the persisting man. A kind of absent-minded reproducing machine. How many died yesterday? Millions? Oh. And how many will die today? Millions? I see. A dull creature trodding through the carnage, his only skill being able to forget it as soon as possible
Tough shit. Once you've tossed morals out through nihilism's window this shit doesn't matter. Only mitigating existence and employing a vapid egoism remains.

>Even some spiel about the glory of kingdom come would be preferable. You might as well tell people to kill themselves if you're going to imply that there's nothing to gain or win
There would be something to gain- they would prevent any future suffering they'd inflict upon others, as well as the possibility of recanting (their anti-natalism) and eventually reproducing.

>>15152568
>so valid?
No, fallacious.

>So, to be sure: you claim that stopping someone in ultimate hell to exist isn't good? Do you also claim that knowingly creating a child whose experience will be a 100% pure suffering isn't bad?
If, after they exist, there is non-existence, I claim it wouldn't be a good thing. I see your attempted reductio ad absurdum, but it being seen as absurd is subjective anyways.

>knowingly creating a child whose experience will be a 100% pure suffering isn't bad?
The argument circled around killing a person in 100% suffering, not creating a being that will live a life of 100% suffering. I would disagree with creating a being that will experience 100% suffering.

>>15152576
It's understandable because a child/children is/are too demanding for depressed individuals, and they'd probably make their children more miserable than happy because of this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 19:55:10 2020 No.15152651 >>15152625 Exiting existence cannot be a good move to make, because there is no longer any "you" to receive the beneftits of that move.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:02:05 2020 No.15152698 >>15148573 >They hated him because he told the truth

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:03:03 2020 No.15152704 >>15152645 even your alpha aryan leader killed himself to escape the pain and suffering.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:03:07 2020 No.15152707 >>15151388 based

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:03:49 2020 No.15152714

>>15152645
>No, fallacious.
Fallacy fallacy.
> I claim it wouldn't be a good thing.
That's a troublesome view, but if you want to keep it, please do. Just remember that you need to reinforce it to make it more convincing.
>I see your attempted reductio ad absurdum
It's an extreme case, but nothing absurd about it.
>I would disagree with creating a being that will experience 100% suffering.
But it is not bad compared to not creating him case, right? Or is it bad?

By the way, what about happy person (or even 100% ultimately happy person)? Will killing him be neither good nor bad?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:05:26 2020 No.15152720 >>15152651 Can it be a bad move to make?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:11:53 2020 No.15152759 >>15152720 Non-existence has no value. It cannot be "good" or "bad"

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:17:23 2020 No.15152796 >>15152759 Ok, so if someone incredibly happy will be killed, you will say that's not good and not bad for him?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:18:53 2020 No.15152807 >>15152759 lack of value shows there is absence of suffering, pleasure, pain and everything so as compared to existence it's good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:21:12 2020 No.15152819 does non existence even exist tho

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:21:52 2020 No.15152823 >>15152819 It metaexists.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:51:30 2020 No.15153027 >>15152796 There isn't a subject anymore. Nothing can be said about its subjective experience. >>15152807 Those things are all values. Non-existence doesn't lack or have anything.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 20:59:30 2020 No.15153062

>>15152645
>Tough shit. Once you've tossed morals out through nihilism's window this shit doesn't matter. Only mitigating existence and employing a vapid egoism remains
Sounds more dejecting than any freakshow of antinatalistic ideology desu which is at least fun in its grotesqueness

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 21:23:06 2020 No.15153216 File: 185 KB, 678x710, age.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Life is inherently valueless. I didn't gain anything from birth but a temporary yoke.

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 21:35:14 2020 No.15153286

>>15153216
Why would you say "life is inherently valueless" rather than "MY life is inherently valueless" when you admit that YOU didn't gain anything from birth. Don't ascribe worthlessness to consciousness itself because then you are damning yourself to perpetual unhappiness. Recognize that it is your own life that's faltering, and then you can actually take the steps to change it

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 21:37:10 2020 No.15153293 >>15150048 >all people are doing in life is coping with their existential dread Is this the flawed mindset of every antinatalist ever? Just kill yourself

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 21:39:57 2020 No.15153306
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>>15151076
>Oh sure the majority of humanity suffers, but I personally am comfy, thus is all existence affirmed through my majesty".
Unironically yes. I don’t care if others suffer

Anonymous Mon Apr 20 21:40:51 2020 No.15153312

>>15150048
>He thinks its possible for nothing to exist
>He thinks its possible for consciousness to cease
How do you feel about all your conceptions about death and subsequent non-existence being linked to your sedated, sensory deprived experience in the womb of your mother? What about sleep? unconsciousness? anesthetics? its not real, let it go anon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 23:15:13 2020 No.15153782 >>15153027 So if someone good and happy is killed, that isn't good or bad?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 20 23:35:29 2020 No.15153864 >>15150089 what is?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 00:14:32 2020 No.15154013 >>15153864 what?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 01:04:12 2020 No.15154240 life is poop tbhh

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 01:24:16 2020 No.15154300

>>15148457
It's basically the same thing that happened to the philosophy of Nietzsche. A bunch of people misconstrued it and pretty much soiled the image. Antinatalism doesn't inherently mean "Oh my life sucks, I wish people would stop having sex because this world is pure evil". It's a philosophical question brought up that "If you are in a place of suffering and knowing the future is also suffering, would you still bring life into that place?". I'm not personally an antinatalist. People who use it are mostly just edgelords who just discovered Natural Born Killers. I'm just making the point that the philosophy itself has suffered due to the idiotic misuse of it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:11:49 2020 No.15154462 >>15153782 Wtf are you talking about? If something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:31:14 2020 No.15154525 >>15148557 It deserves to fade into nothingness, but even if it had validity it would still be doomed to extinction because by definition it cannot propogate effectively.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:34:34 2020 No.15154535

>>15150048
>It's only the logical conclusion to recognizing that everything is dull, pointless and that all people are doing in life is coping with their existential dread
Wrong on multiple levels. Antinatalists once again show their hand at being cognitively devoid of higher thought functions, instead operating at an underdeveloped state in a society wherein it is unacceptable to address such a thing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:36:21 2020 No.15154541 >>15150312 Stop acting positively toward him, he might experience joy and as a result have his antinatalist worldview dissolve within his own hands.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:42:24 2020 No.15154564

>>15151076
>What absolute cope - "Oh sure the majority of humanity suffers, but I personally am comfy, thus is all existence affirmed through my majesty".
The irony in this statement is off the charts.
"Oh sure the majority of humanity finds joy in life despite the suffering, ultimately choosing to reproduce, but personally I am depressed and unhappy , thus is all existence delegitimized through my misery."

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:45:02 2020 No.15154575

>>15151112
>Interesting how those born into their chains hardly notice they are there though,
Back this statement up, because as it stands it is purple wisdom. Looks nice and flowery but is naught more than hot air.
Also ignores the concept of hope; looking forward to a better future than the situation one currently belongs to.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:52:01 2020 No.15154596

>>15151495
If I had a minute to live and had two choices:
>1 minute of pure nothingness, no suffering, no pleasure, complete neutrality
>59 seconds of pain, but 1 second of seeing a baby's smile
I'd choose the latter in the heartbeat. In pure quantity you can argue that the world is more evil than good (but this literally cannot be proven either, so even then your argument lacks solid foundation), at the end of the day Good is incredibly more valuable than Evil, and ultimately far outweighs the suffering in the world.
Antinatalists are just so afraid of suffering that they have forgotten the Good and can't conceive of fighting for its sake.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:55:23 2020 No.15154603

>>15151625
What? Why? You're going to die eventually and no pleasure is worth the suffering that you have and will experience, isn't that right? Why are you even bothering being alive, much less performing upkeep on yourself to live a happy life?
Are antinatalists hypocrites too?

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:56:56 2020 No.15154609

>>15150089
The ability to make good judgement, a notion close but not equal to raw intelligence.
I believe that someone who isn't very smart but knows the limits of his intellect is wiser than a very high IQ know-it-all who never misses an opportunity to try to impress other people with obscure words.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:58:36 2020 No.15154616 >>15152090 By the axioms you've put forth to defend your own stupid position, no.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 02:59:38 2020 No.15154621 >>15152104 >My only aspiration is to own my own home so I don't have to wagie. You know you'd still have to pay bills, right...?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:03:39 2020 No.15154630 >>15152231 >you can't escape suffering. What? I do it every day. If you mean permanently, then that's heavily debatable, you should look into this hot new fad called "religions", most of them have perscriptions for your problem.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:03:40 2020 No.15154631 >>15150048 YOU think YOUR life is meaningless. It's not up to you to decide if mine is or isn't meaningless... In short : that's Your opinion.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:06:08 2020 No.15154639

>>15152231
Absence of bad isn't good, you've got it completely backwards.
Abscence of good is what is bad.
I can conceive of good things without the context of bad things juxtaposed to give positive value to them. I cannot conceive of anything bad unless it is reducing the good which is already present in the world.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:14:52 2020 No.15154674

>>15153782
Dude how do you keep asking him the same leading questions over and over and still think that you're going to trap him or something. The logic he has brought up is airtight, the fact that you keep pressing is an embarassing suggestion that you do not understand what he is saying.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:16:04 2020 No.15154677 >>15154300 >the philosophy itself has suffered due to the idiotic misuse of it. To be fair, I think that applies to all philosophies by now. None remain completely unbesmirched. Nietzche seems to have gotten the worst of it though.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:17:24 2020 No.15154685 >>15151388 I agree.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:25:43 2020 No.15154708

>>15152714
Fallacy fallacy only applies when the original person pointing out the fallacy acts as though doing so invalidates the other person's entire argument, and thus fails to make counterpoints. That is clearly not what happened.
>By the way, what about happy person (or even 100% ultimately happy person)? Will killing him be neither good nor bad?
That is correct, from that person's point of view.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:28:17 2020 No.15154719

>>15148457
Antinatalists hate him! Find out how he beat antinatalism with one simple trick...
From wikipedia, early life:
>Born in south africa
>((David)) ((Benatar)) is the son of ((Solomon)) Benatar, a ((global-health)) expert who founded the Bioethics Centre at the University of Cape Town. Not much is known about Benatar's personal life as he ((deliberately guards his privacy)). He has held antinatalist views since his childhood
Son of the medicine seller. What a radi al cure to all diseases! How delightfully hebrew!

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:29:00 2020 No.15154724

>>15152090
Suffering & pain by themselves aren't bad.
You hurt your toe with a table, it hurts! That's a signal sent by your body that informs you of a threat. If you didn't have any nerve you could 3rd degree burn your arm without noticing anything, slice your fingers without noticing,etc...

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:32:58 2020 No.15154737 What went wrong with western society to cause antinatalism to appear?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:33:16 2020 No.15154738 >>15148525 fpbp

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:33:36 2020 No.15154740 >>15154724 >Suffering & pain by themselves aren't bad. then go take a mallet and smash your dick

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 03:36:55 2020 No.15154750 >>15154737 buddha told his monks to don't marry or have kids. he preached Asceticism. so technically in order to achieve nirvana you have to be an antinatalist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 04:06:22 2020 No.15154872 >>15148457 Read Debating Procreation: Is It Wrong to Reproduce? by Benatar David Wasserman Wasserman tries and fails

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 04:07:04 2020 No.15154876 >>15152557 are u retarded ? if one is dead he reduces suffering to 0 ,it is a superior option if you're getting your limbs sliced . you dont need to experience non existence for it to be valid. Death is liberation as some stoic said

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 04:19:06 2020 No.15154920 >>15151210 >Therefore, the absence of pain is good, while the absence of pleasure is bad, and therefore, there is a symmetry instead of an asymmetry. This is retarded and you know it

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 05:14:45 2020 No.15155179 >>15148457 Antivital, antihuman, unworthy of existing. They are correct not in their diagnosis but their self prescription

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 07:44:58 2020 No.15155989 >>15150048 based

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:18:17 2020 No.15156166 >>15154750 Yep Buddhism is antinatalist to the core. So is Christianity actually: Salome: How long shall this miserable world of finitude last? How long shall death prevail? Jesus: As long as women bear children. Based? Definitely.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:22:43 2020 No.15156184 >>15156166 Based? Based on what?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:23:24 2020 No.15156190 >>15152297 Even a delusional person who THINKS that they're accomplished and is thus happy, when they are merely normal but happy, has already effortlessly disproven Antinatalism at a conceptual level just by existing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:29:09 2020 No.15156218 File: 263 KB, 1011x756, suicide_booth_by_r_w_shilling.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I'm really starting to believe that this is the way, /lit/. Just look at DFW, Fisher, Debord, etc..

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:35:14 2020 No.15156248

What a predictable thread, where optimists just rage at the real nature of being. Isn't it interesting, how you all will entertain any shitty philosophy as long as its life affirming, or at least neutral - but pessimism is simply too much for you. SEETHING.

>>15154708
You're making this far, far more complicated than it really is. An obvious cope, nearly a kind of pilpul. Let's just restate the argument again.
>Person is suffering
>Dies
>Not suffering
See? Simple. The fact that the person no longer exists is central to the claim - conciousness inevitably leads to suffering, so non-existence is always preferable.

So your solution is to ignore that & just cope - "No, I will confront my suffering heroically!" - which is irrelevant as nobody gives a shit, and neither will you once dead. My solution is....do nothing special, cope as best you can, just don't breed & inflict it on anyone else. Other people have other solutions. But it's all still just cope, as eventually everyone dies anyway. You just lack honesty with yourself. But then it doesn't really matter, death always wins in the end.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:44:48 2020 No.15156304

the problem of the anti-natalist is not in the existence of actual human suffering but in their perceiving of said suffering.
there is, after all, no efficient, or even feasible way to determine the amount of suffering experienced by all available humanity.
the anti-natalist assumes that suffering always weight heavier on the scale than whatever state of being should run counter or at least is more beneficial to humanity.
but lacking any means of quantifying said suffering the only logical basis for the anti-natalist to measure suffering is by the perception of suffering held by people.
therefore it only makes sense that to decrease the amount that suffering is perceived is to decrease the state of suffering in the world.
the best way to reach this objective is to eliminate the populace with the greatest and most intensely felt perception of human suffering, ie: anti-natalists

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:50:24 2020 No.15156324 >>15156248 existence in itself is much more preferable than not existing

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:55:11 2020 No.15156342 >>15151438 Holy based

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:59:05 2020 No.15156370 >>15152324 Straight up knock down argument right here and antinatalist faggots sleep on it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 08:59:05 2020 No.15156371 >>15156248 I swear nothing triggers people harder than this idea. I think it's a combination of the fact that it's so profoundly inhuman, while being very simple and obviously correct.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:02:35 2020 No.15156395 >>15156248 How can you prefer something when you're in a state of non-existence? You antinatalists are such dumb niggers, honestly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:13:44 2020 No.15156443 >>15148457 How can your future non-existent kids be happy to not exist if you need to exist to be happy about anything? Makes no sense.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:14:28 2020 No.15156446 >>15148457 "Breeder" is the world's funniest pejorative so antinatalism gets a based in my book.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:23:31 2020 No.15156486 >>15154674 >still think that you're going to trap him or something But he already was trapped. > The logic he has brought up is airtight No, it's possibly even worse than antinatalist logic (which is quite an accomplishment).

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:27:21 2020 No.15156512

>>15154708
>Fallacy fallacy only applies when the original person pointing out the fallacy acts as though doing so invalidates the other person's entire argument, and thus fails to make counterpoints. That is clearly not what happened.
Why "entire"? If not "entire" argument is based on a certain fallacy, does that mean it is not fallacious?

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:30:03 2020 No.15156528

>>15154708
>That is correct, from that person's point of view.
Well, if your chain of thought comes to nonsensical conclusion (killing a happy person isn't bad for him), then it was wrong all along. Like those false mathematical proofs where you end with 1=0 in the end.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:31:36 2020 No.15156539 >>15156486 He wasn't trapped at all. The other anon just didn't understand that he wasn't talking about dying/being killed.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:35:49 2020 No.15156564

>>15156539
>The other anon just didn't understand that he wasn't talking about dying/being killed.
The discussion was specifically about this case:
>Ok, so if someone incredibly happy will be killed, you will say that's not good and not bad for him?
>So if someone good and happy is killed, that isn't good or bad?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:40:35 2020 No.15156602 >>15156324 if u were getting your face peeled off or burned alive you would disagree

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:41:33 2020 No.15156609 >>15156602 and how often does that happen and for how long does it happen

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:41:43 2020 No.15156612 >>15156395 literally retarded read >>15154876

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:41:58 2020 No.15156614 >>15156602 Quite a lot of fourth stage cancer patients continue to fight for their lives and jump at every possibility to prolong it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:42:21 2020 No.15156617 Whining online isnt a movement

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:42:35 2020 No.15156619 >>15156564 No, it was in regard to this >>15152616 And then the antinatalist tried smuggling in dying/being killed, when he was talking about non-existence from the beginning

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:44:32 2020 No.15156627

>>15148457
>you, antinatalist
>has no children, dies miserable and alone, no leave no more antinatalists
>me, quiverfull
>has a dozen children, passing my ideology on to each of them, propagating it throughout the world
Show me one antinatalist who isn't fucking ugly or fat or deformed.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:46:24 2020 No.15156637 >>15156612 Read this you dumb nigger>>15152324

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:51:08 2020 No.15156664 >>15156619 >just like wiping the chess pieces off the board won't mean you won the game or advanced to a more advantageous position. This clearly refers to stopping some process, not beginning (or not-beginning) it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:55:49 2020 No.15156702 >>15154920 Explain why.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:57:03 2020 No.15156712 >>15156602 I'm so sorry that that is happening to you, anon. If it happened to me I too would wish for death. But if the situation ended and I recovered I would still have kids.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:58:00 2020 No.15156722 >>15154920 It's a perfect common sense (which also does not lead to nonsensical contradictions).

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:58:11 2020 No.15156728 >>15156304 This is definitely a significant factor as well as all of the other retardations found core to the antinatalist viewpoint.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 09:59:03 2020 No.15156733

>>15156664
That's the point. The ideal state of non-existence can only be appreciated retroactively, after already existing; after already being "in the game". Killing one's self/not being born in the first place would preclude the appreciation of that state. The antinatalist is fucked either way.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:00:08 2020 No.15156740 >>15148457 discord . gg/tmecPqx

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:00:30 2020 No.15156747

>>15156512
True, but this is mere semantics and ultimately irrelevant. The anon who pointed out that argument ad populum is a fallacy addressed the rest of the argument. The only reason he brought up the fallacy was to shoot down the single point made through fallacy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:03:20 2020 No.15156762 >>15156190 What is the value of being happy?

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:03:24 2020 No.15156763

>>15156733
If you have a terrible headache from playing chess, then stopping playing sounds like a good decision. But not starting playing sounds even more wise. Getting a headache on purpose to stop feeling it a bit later is quite masochistic.
>The ideal state of non-existence can only be appreciated retroactively
So now you claim that there is a good non-existence in which you can appreciate the past existence? That's just another different viewpoint.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:05:22 2020 No.15156773 >>15156747 >True, but this is mere semantics Since semantics is concerned with meaning, it's natural to introduce it when we want to realize the meaning.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:07:37 2020 No.15156786

>>15156747
>The anon who pointed out that argument ad populum is a fallacy addressed the rest of the argument.
His latter points were addressed too.
>The only reason he brought up the fallacy was to shoot down the single point made through fallacy.
But he didn't shoot it down. To mention the fallacy name is far from sufficient to show that the argument is wrong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:11:01 2020 No.15156799 >>15156762 100 gold coins.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:16:13 2020 No.15156831 >>15150048 Projection city, what a miserable life you must have.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:18:04 2020 No.15156843 >>15151076 Might want to do something about that crippling depression because you're delusional.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:25:36 2020 No.15156881
File: 91 KB, 352x326, 1349548929626.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15156627

>has no children, dies miserable and alone

I think this idea is why antinatalism is so uncommon, most people (extroverts i.e. morons) need to be surrounded by other people constantly, whereas the intelligent fragment of the population crave solitude and so are able to actually examine the concept.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:26:35 2020 No.15156885

>>15156763
You've presented a false analogy and proven that you dont understand the terms of the argument. Here's the correct analogy that demonstrates the fallaciousness of antinatalism:
>You are in a game. The game has rules. They say you can make moves. They say that moves have value. You decide to leave the game, because it would be a good move
But at this point you are not in the game, and there are no rules anymore; the move you have made cannot have a value or be a move at all
>So now you claim that there is a good non-existence
Wtf are you talking about dude? Just read the original argument. It refers to Benetar's orginal argument.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:32:00 2020 No.15156915

>>15154708
>Fallacy fallacy only applies when the original person pointing out the fallacy acts as though doing so invalidates the other person's entire argument

Jesus christ, no. A fallacy *does* completely invalidate the argument it was present in--that's the definition of a fallacy.

The "fallacy fallacy" is when the presence of a fallacy in an argument supporting a proposition is used to argue the proposition is false.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:32:45 2020 No.15156919

>>15156885
Just to clarify: I am not an antinatalist, I think that childbirth is good and antinatalism is heavily fallacious. If your arguments are only supposed to show some contradictions within antinatalism, then OK. But presented on their own they are no better.

>You've presented a false analogy and proven that you dont understand the terms of the argument.
No, the chess analogy was presented not by me.
>But at this point you are not in the game, and there are no rules anymore;
So what? If you hate playing chess, then stopping it is still a good decision, even if you need to break some rules or abolish them.
>Wtf are you talking about dude? Just read the original argument. It refers to Benetar's orginal argument.
"The ideal state of non-existence can only be appreciated retroactively" - is this your viewpoint or some reductio ad absurdum?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:33:36 2020 No.15156923 >>15154013 ?

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:36:43 2020 No.15156940

>>15156248
>What a predictable thread, where optimists just rage at the real nature of being. Isn't it interesting, how you all will entertain any shitty philosophy as long as its life affirming, or at least neutral - but pessimism is simply too much for you. SEETHING.

Deeply ironic, considering anti-natalist "arguments".

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:36:59 2020 No.15156944 >>15156919 You seem to be confused. See the orginal argument >>15152324

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:39:40 2020 No.15156954 >>15156919 >So what? The analogy is analogising the rules of chess with existence. There's nothing outside the rules

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:41:57 2020 No.15156966 >>15156944 Benatar's argument is bad because of the absence of pain being good part. You can still compare the current or potential presence of pain/pleasure to see if some life is good and if it is worth creating a new life.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:43:16 2020 No.15156977 >>15156954 Then you brought this onto yourself by making the game analogies.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:54:38 2020 No.15157044

>>15156966
>You can still compare the current or potential presence of pain/pleasure to see if some life is good and if it is worth creating a new life.
You can't because it means predicting a non-existent thing with value. A decision cannot be good/bad for something that doesn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 10:55:55 2020 No.15157051 >>15157044 >You can't You certainly can, so >because it means predicting a non-existent thing with value. A decision cannot be good/bad for something that doesn't exist. is just a sophistry without much meaning.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:01:24 2020 No.15157089 >>15157051 >sophistry You were filtered. You are too dumb to understand the argument.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:02:48 2020 No.15157099 >>15156627 birth rates are falling all over the world

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:03:21 2020 No.15157107 >>15157089 That's OK, you can then continue to claim that someone good and happy killed is not bad. Quite a filter, not even antinatalists are that filtrating.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:04:58 2020 No.15157120 >>15157044 just cum in the pussy of your girlfriend and she will shit out a leech after 9 months. and with consciousness there will be suffering. it's simple you fucking retarded faggot.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:06:23 2020 No.15157136 >>15157107 What are you talking about dude? You sound like an ESL.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:09:13 2020 No.15157159

>>15156966
Anon, if you compare the potential suffering of a potential human, and decide not to bring that human into existence, you're not actually helping that person, becuse they never existed in the first place. It really isn't that hard to understand.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:09:59 2020 No.15157164

>>15157136
>What are you talking about dude?
Lad, I am trying to show you that your sophistry directly leads to claims like "when some happy man with a good life is killed, that's not bad". Do you agree with such a claim or not?
> You sound like an ESL.
No u.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:13:14 2020 No.15157191 >>15157159 I just wonder why are you so keen on using the "bring into existence" expression instead of, say, "creating". Sure, it's a common idiom, but in a discussion where specific words and meanings matter a lot using it is self-defeating.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:13:14 2020 No.15157192 >>15156915 Outline how anon pointing out the ad populum fallacy is not a valid response.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:14:58 2020 No.15157206 >>15157164 The only sophistry here is Benetar's argument. Non-existence cannot be good or bad. Or do you think that non-existence = existence now?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:16:13 2020 No.15157214 >>15157191 Because they're the word Benetar uses

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:16:45 2020 No.15157218

>>15157159
Let's say that before the conception parents (knowingly and malignantly, as an experiment) drink a pill which ensures that their child will be deformed and will suffer every moment of his life. Can you say that they did a bad thing (or that the child may hold the grudge against them)?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:18:13 2020 No.15157231 >>15157214 It actually defeats his argument too, but antinatalism is self-contradictory in general.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:19:42 2020 No.15157241 Christians seething ITT. Loving it

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:20:35 2020 No.15157247 >>15157206 >Non-existence cannot be good or bad If your existence is good, then non-existence is bad compared to it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:21:16 2020 No.15157253 >>15157247 Not even a natalist but this is so wrong, holy shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:22:27 2020 No.15157263 >>15157247 Lmao. The absolute fucking state of antinatalism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:22:33 2020 No.15157265 >>15157253 Then guess you shouldn't mind if someone will decide to kill you. The result will not be good, but it will not be bad too.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:22:39 2020 No.15157267 >antinatalist threads >religious threads Are there any other threads that inspire as much asspain?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:23:42 2020 No.15157273 >>15157263 But it's you who are antinatalist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:24:31 2020 No.15157278 >>15157267 Circumcision threads

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:24:32 2020 No.15157279

It only exists because the elites have realized that the world is becoming overpopulated.

They are trying to brainwash the masses that something is wrong with them etc etc so that will help a lot of the wealthier populations from reproducing and therefore less of a draw on the exponentially depleting resources.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:24:41 2020 No.15157280 >>15157265 Killing is not the same as deciding to not have kids, what the fuck

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:24:44 2020 No.15157281 >>15157267 >inspire as much shitposting Fixed for you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:26:17 2020 No.15157293 >>15157218 All you can say is that the child will suffer.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:27:00 2020 No.15157298

>>15157280
>Killing is not the same as deciding to not have kids
Is there some special kind of nonexistence after death compared to the nonexistence before the birth?
>what the fuck
Calm down, no one is trying to kill you now, it's just a logical argument.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:28:06 2020 No.15157309 >>15157293 Alas, in real life you can't just stop obvious consequences and conclusions by just stating "all you can say".

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:29:23 2020 No.15157317 >>15157280 Just like killing is not the same as not volunteering into a rescue squad.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:31:12 2020 No.15157332 >>15157309 Au contraire, your supposed "obvious consequences and conclusions" are nothing but the product of your own hubris.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:33:36 2020 No.15157348 File: 33 KB, 129x194, yes and.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15157317

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:33:42 2020 No.15157349 >>15157332 Ok, you can then start claiming IRL that "killing a happy person isn't bad" or "intentionally damaging your future child is not bad". That will certainly fix their hubris.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:35:52 2020 No.15157356 File: 270 KB, 1920x1200, folks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15157348

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:37:30 2020 No.15157366
File: 7 KB, 276x276, 1549116324118.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

You Anti-natalists are good people.
Why the fuck you fools are preaching this philosophy to coping subhumans?
let them have kids, let them see their kids suffer all the incoming economic, energy, political and climate catastrophes in front of them. because they deserve this for their lack of self-reflection, denial of human nature and denial of the brutal reality of nature.
let them cope and let them suffer.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:37:34 2020 No.15157367 >>15157349 And you can start claiming IRL that existence = non-existence

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:37:42 2020 No.15157369 File: 426 KB, 1280x2164, yay.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15157356

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:39:58 2020 No.15157386 >>15157367 Sorry, but existence is obviously different from the non-existence. Here, I never claimed otherwise. Now can you please state the following: >killing a happy person is bad >intentionally damaging your future child is bad

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:40:59 2020 No.15157390 >>15157386 Quote me saying those things and I will happily do so.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:42:02 2020 No.15157403 >>15157386 >>15157390 Their inverse, that is.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:42:58 2020 No.15157410 >>15157390 I just ask you to agree (or disagree) with these two claims. You never quoted me saying "existence = non-existence", yet I immediately disagreed with it (because it's wrong).

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:44:16 2020 No.15157423 >>15157410 Stop presupposing it in your arguments then.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:44:18 2020 No.15157425 >>15156637 retard tier argument you sophist nigger, in moments of extreme pain you would easily change ur mind just a coward to admit it

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:46:09 2020 No.15157443 >>15157425 Projection. I'm stronger than you.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:46:42 2020 No.15157447

>>15157423
Can you please state that you agree with these claims (or disagree with them if that's your position). Then I will be able to know your position and not presuppose the opposite. Just like you can do with the "existence = non-existence" question now.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:49:20 2020 No.15157460 >>15157447 Answer is here >>15152324

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:49:27 2020 No.15157463 >>15157423 nobody is presupposing your baby exist in your semen and egg cell of your wife.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:52:23 2020 No.15157474

>>15157460
Can you, please, write the following:
>killing a happy person is bad
or
>killing a happy person is not bad
then
>intentionally damaging your future child is bad
or
>intentionally damaging your future child is not bad

I immediately and directly disagreed with your false "existence = non-existence" claim about my viewpoint. Can you do the same about the questions above?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 11:56:10 2020 No.15157490 >>15157474 Can you show how these questions impinge on my orginal argument? I've forgotten. After that I can answer

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:01:10 2020 No.15157523

>>15157490
Ok, so you are unable to clearly and directly answer these simple questions (despite the fact that no effort is needed for that). Maybe it's because you don't know, maybe because it destroys your argument, maybe for some other reason.
Still it's fun how your false accusation tactics failed - I immediately refuted the false claim and you are unable to agree or disagree with a simple statement for several posts already.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:10:06 2020 No.15157579

>>15157523
Yet you still can't tell me how they're relevant, and still seem to be acting under the assumption that I've used the words "killing" and "dying". Instead of trying to catch me in your little gotcha, you could have just told me how they impinge on my original argument. You have only yourself to blame for all these wasted posts. Childish and embarrassing on your part.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:15:45 2020 No.15157611

>>15157579
Just another failure to simply copypaste the parts you agree with out of the following:
>killing a happy person is bad
or
>killing a happy person is not bad
then
>intentionally damaging your future child is bad
or
>intentionally damaging your future child is not bad
Some extremely complex questions these are, aren't they?

All that after you wrote the silly "existence = non-existence" >>15157367 and it was immediately refuted by me in >>15157386 without endless wriggling. Were you expecting that I will be unable to do that?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:20:03 2020 No.15157648 >>15157611 Cringe dude, just stop. Schizo as well; a lot of these posts you're quoting aren't even me.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:25:25 2020 No.15157689

>>15157648
Where do I quote not you and claim that's you? Just to clarify,
>killing a happy person is bad
or
>killing a happy person is not bad
then
>intentionally damaging your future child is bad
or
>intentionally damaging your future child is not bad
are not your quotes - they are possible answers for you (but you are unable to choose any).

Antinatalists are, of course silly and wrong, but if people opposing them are like you, it's no wonder that they can achieve some sophistry successes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:27:13 2020 No.15157702 >>15148457 who knew that getty images was the domain of archetypal forms lol

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:28:17 2020 No.15157719 >>15157689 Cringe.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:30:35 2020 No.15157738 >>15157719 Smug.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:41:15 2020 No.15157805 >>15157164 Wrong. The person who is still alive is justified in being sad over his happy friend being dead. But the dead person himself is non-existant; his experience is neither good nor bad, as it does not exist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 12:41:15 2020 No.15157806 >>15150048 you have a very boring life sir

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 13:05:04 2020 No.15158001

>>15157805
So every person who doesn't want to die (so absolute majority) is not justified in that because it's neither good nor bad? And if some mad scientist will explode the bomb which will immediately kill the whole Earth population, he will not do anything bad?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 14:26:31 2020 No.15158613 >>15153286 Because with a little thought, it's intuitively understood that what I said can be applied to someone on the other side of the world and also to a prawn born in a creek.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 14:55:17 2020 No.15158849 >>15150048 based. these retards can discuss pedantic bullshit with infinite nuance but as soon as antinatalism or pessimism is disgusted they resort to argumentation that any normie can muster

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 14:57:22 2020 No.15158861 >>15158849 *discussed

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 15:01:30 2020 No.15158887 >>15158849 >being unhappy and not existing is based! Ok. Kill yourself then. Unironically fucking kill yourself. I am deadly fucking serious. Fucking kill yourself, reduce my suffering.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 15:06:38 2020 No.15158917

>>15158887
I don't live in Burgerland but as soon as I can get ahold on a shotgun I probably will. Though I personally can't wait to see Natalists and their precious white children be raped and slaughtered, see how much amor fati will do for them then.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 15:07:56 2020 No.15158928 >>15152349 Not being born wouldn't be anything. You cannot ascribe qaulities to non-existence.

Anonymous Tue Apr 21 15:25:01 2020 No.15159018

>>15152246
>Straw man.
this is not a straw man, he is not misrepresenting anyone's argument
>This means everyone we hate is telling the truth. What an absurd standard
this conclusion does not follow. now this is a proper example of a strawman, the poster makes no claims about the relationship between hatred and truth, you are extrapolating something he didn't even imply
>Greek antinatalism is obsolete and probably mired in Hellenistic religion anyway
>probably
oh, so you haven't read any of it and are making a claim on something you have no understanding of. nothing surprising here
>I'd say you're too optimistic in thinking so.
pessimistic
>and mass killings will only lead to mass suffering and failure.
why?

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/lit/ - Literature