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15090706 No.15090706 [Reply] [Original]

why do so many philosophers use torture as an example of something "obviously" wrong?

>> No.15090723

>>15090706
because they are so weak the worst they can imagine is physical pain

>> No.15090727

torture isn't effective at getting the truth, so it doesn't serve its purpose.

>> No.15090740

>>15090727
i don't believe this. if someone tortured me, i'd tell them what they wanted to know

>> No.15090756

>>15090740
Which is not necessarily what you know

>> No.15090759

>>15090740
>i'd tell them what they wanted to know

regardless of whether or not it's true?

>> No.15090773

>>15090756
>>15090759
so every hypothetical instance of torture involves the tortured subject not knowing what is being asked? well then yeah, i guess it won't work...

>> No.15090774

>>15090706
Torture is good if you use it to get criminals or for a greater good

>> No.15090779

>>15090740
>FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation, the United States Army field manual, explains that torture "is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."[6] Not only is torture ineffective at gathering reliable information, but it also increases the difficulty of gathering information from a source in the future.
even amerifat gun printer man doesn't think torture works

>> No.15090783

>>15090706
Well, how would you like to be tortured OP? Thats why.

>> No.15090784

>>15090740
cuck

>> No.15090788

>>15090727
What if you torture someone without wanting to know anything from them?

>> No.15090798

>>15090706
Too me torture is a transcendental experience. One that takes you to the pits of hell and back. In it you have no true enemy, not even your torturer, who in a way sort of becomes attached to you and you to it. Instead your antagonist is the pain, and you try to prevent it in anyway possible. Of course when it is over, and the pain halts you are changed, less naive a little more quiet and little more accepting to the bad that happens to you.

>> No.15090813

>>15090798
have you been tortured?

>> No.15090829

>>15090773
every hypothetical instance of torture involves the torturer not knowing the answer, and because their very means of getting an answer cast that answer into unreliability, torture isn't effective. furthermore torture is always an affront to human dignity; no matter who is tortured or if they 'deserve' it the torture is a compromise of their dignity.
yes, you can tease out a scenario where torture is a valid solution but we wouldn't call this scenario "obvious"

>> No.15090837

>>15090813
Seeing all these women get with jerks and ignore nice guys like me is the worse torture imaginable

>> No.15090863

>>15090813
By human hands? No.
But I suffer from a specific medical condition, that causes excruciating pain for hours on end if not treated.

>> No.15090864

>>15090829
>every hypothetical instance of scientific investigation involves the scientist not knowing the answer, and because their very means of getting an answer cast that answer into unreliability, science isn't effective.

>> No.15090866

>>15090829
>every hypothetical instance of torture involves the torturer not knowing the answer,
wrong
you arrest someone who knows the location of bombs, missing people, national security stuff but is unwilling to tell you anything because he is dick
what would you do?

>> No.15090867

>>15090727
There's no way to ethically perform an experiment that would actually prove that torture does or doesn't work. All the arguments for the idea that torture doesn't work could be applied to any form of interrogation.

>> No.15090892

>>15090727
I'm not exactly a "fan" of torture but this always felt like a cope argument by those afraid to make a moral argument against something and therefore defer to false claims of material inefficiency. Surely if you torture someone to get a list of locations/names you will get some info no? Sure plenty of false positives but still narrows it down from everywhere/everyone.
For example if some guerilla combatant is captured and you torture him to reveal the location of his base of operations he would eventually name it, among many false locations. But now you merely have to search the locations he mentioned rather than the entire region. Capture multiple and now you can even cross reference lists to narrow it down further.

>> No.15090905

ITT: midwits think they know more about the efficacy of torture than the actual CIA glowniggers that write the torture manuals.

>> No.15090908

>>15090773
dude the spanish inquisition figured out torture didn't work centuries ago and yet there's still edgelords like you concocting inane examples to justify it because it gives you a stiffy to imagine yourself being the hard man that does bad things for the greater good

>> No.15090933

Can anyone here provide evidence for the idea that torture doesn't work without using an argument from authority? Just because someone tried it and didn't get the results they wanted doesn't mean that it never works under any circumstances. After all, what kind of torture were they using? What kind of information were they trying to get? What kind of rigorous comparison did they run side-by-side with non-torture interrogation methods? Where's the data?

>> No.15090969

guys what if the terrorists have hidden a bomb in the big city full of children and it's blowing up in 1 hour and we can't evacuate everyone but we caught one terrorist and if we find out where the bomb is we can defuse it and and we are 10000% sure there is a bomb and it will kill everyone unless we find out the answer from the terrorist is it ok to torture him then????????

>> No.15090985

>>15090969
I would torture anybody for much less

>> No.15091024
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15091024

Why does every discussion of torture necessitate interrogation? When two of three uses has nothing to do with it?
Do most people just not instantly connect with with pleasure or punishment?

>> No.15091053

>>15091024
All morally reasonable people would agree that torture as a punishment, or torture for the pleasure of the torturer, is wrong. Torture for a utilitarian purpose is where things actually get sticky.

>> No.15091054

>>15091024
Because inflicting untold suffering into your fellow humans just for kicks is obviously evil lmao
At least for interrogation there's an argument to be had about utilitarian ethics

>> No.15091072

>>15090727
The OP didn't mention anything about interrogation, which is only one reason for torture. You could also torture someone as a deterrent to others, as a form of retribution or justice, or to compel an action, like forcing someone to make a statement in a propaganda video.

>>15090892
Besides this you could ask for locations you already know about, so that the subject doesn't know whether it is safe to lie.

>> No.15091079

>>15091053
mainly because torture gets you to say what your torturer wants you to say and not what is true.

>> No.15091091

>>15090866
They could just as easily lie

>> No.15091093

>>15090969
and then we torture him and it turns out the bomb's diffuse mechanism is a camera with a sophisticated ai that only stops the countdown when it sees an adult man matching my description having sex with a child. and that was my argument against the age of consent

>> No.15091102

>>15090933
>real torture has never been tried

>> No.15091108

>>15091091
you torture him again if lying

>> No.15091178

>>15091053
Torture as punishment seems reasonable to me for certain terrible crimes. however I don't trust anybody to make decisions about when to use it.

>> No.15091204

If torture didn't work it wouldn't have been evolutionarily selected for in women.

>> No.15091223

>>15091053
>All morally reasonable people would agree that torture as a punishment, or torture for the pleasure of the torturer, is wrong.
Inflicting the same amount of pain that one inflicted to others is the utmost absolute justice, that would require torture (imprisoning is a form of torture btw)

>> No.15091239

>>15090864
their very means of getting an answer don't cast that answer into unreliability, anon. why would they?
>>15090866
if you decide to torture him to get the answer, then in that case you, the torturer, would indeed not know the answer

>> No.15091293

>>15091223
and why wouldn't the one inflicting the revenge-pain be himself subject to the same punishment? how do you tell if a given instance of pain infliction is redressing or upsetting the proper pain-balance? the greeks already knew you have to cut the cycle, look at the oresteia.

>> No.15091303
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15091303

>torture bad!

>> No.15091313

>>15090866
Obviously, you have a moral obligation to start sucking his dick to save the world.

>> No.15091315
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15091315

>>15091303
>torture bad!

>> No.15091346

>>15091315
Jesus might have been a torturer
He was the son of a carpenter, likely growing up to become one himself one day. Who do they have making the wooden crosses they crucify people on?
The only thing he ever makes in the Bible is a whip
Who could understand human suffering better than a torturer
t. Gene Wolfe

>> No.15091363

>>15090908
Fucking based.

>> No.15091420
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15091420

>>15090908
R*ddit is leaking.

>> No.15091434

>>15090863

Do you mind telling us the health problem?

>> No.15091456

>>15090706
name 5

>> No.15091485

>>15090779
Then why is it so frequently used?

>> No.15091493

>>15090969
He'll tell you it's in some other place, and by the time you find out he lied to you, it's too late.

>> No.15091495

>>15091485
If you're just going to kill them might as well torture them beforehand. The rare times they actually say anything useful make it worth it.

>> No.15091529

>>15091053
>all morally reasonable people would agree that torture as a punishment... is wrong
I disagree, I think in general people are fine with corporal punishment.
>Torture for a utilitarian purpose
I would also say corporal punishment is utilitarian.
Also not really what i'm asking.
>>15091054
It maybe be evil within our scope but that's not really what i'm asking.

>> No.15091570

>>15090706
I don’t think it’s just philosophers or mainly philosophers. Philosophy in general seems more likely to validate bad behavior since it’s free form in nature desu.

The thread seems to address a lot but false confessions are also more often than you might think. Confessions are pretty much gold standard, no one who was innocent would ever tell a lie, right?

Well no. Authorities that think they have the perpetrator (in the case that she doesn’t know she can get a lawyer at any time, also more common than you’d think) have been cited as keeping their victim in an interrogation room for 30-50 hours without sleep. Some people give false confessions due to wanting to escape a stressful situation, believing the police when they say for example “nothing will happen to you, just tell us da truth, we understand why you’d do that, it’s just a circumstance and it isn’t ur fault bb”

Then bam they lock you up for 30 years

I guess torture is good for like, making a person into a totally mindless compliant animal. Like a sad, vegetable PTSD puppy. I dunno anon, serial killers did that stuff so check some of them out.

>> No.15091589

>>15091485
People are vengeful sinners anon. They carry themselves too far in their punishment of others under the state of nature.

>> No.15091598

>>15091485
The CIA is actually a terrorist organization

>> No.15091684

>>15091223
How exactly do you measure that? More importantly, what gives you justification for torturing others? Maybe you deserved it. Anyway; it’s all speculation unless you’re fully aware of their mental state and your own which doesn’t seem likely.

If you want to torture people for personal pleasure well there are probably ways of filling that tendency which doesn’t scar your subject permanently. If turning people into scarred vegetables gives you personal pleasure that seems to be similar to murder. I dunno. Read crime and punishment or something.

>> No.15091721

>>15090706
ngl that op pic is kinda hot

>> No.15091823

>>15090798
Nietzsche told us in the genealogy that punishments only improve a person’s prudence

>> No.15091856

>>15091598
Latin America is unironically better off today than it would be otherwise without the CIA's interventions over the years

>> No.15091959

>>15090706
Oh I didn’t think about torture for punishment. I guess that’s fine as long as the pain is temporary idk. It does seem to set a questionable precedent for your everyday person who may feel themselves more at home to batter people due to the policies they live under. A lot of countries do that but it’s physical. Prison seems more damaging and unproductive than a whipping since its more emotionally damaging.

>> No.15092312

>>15090706

Most people aren't sociopaths.

>>15090723

You're unqualified to pass judgment on this topic unless you describe the worst physical pain you've been in.

>> No.15092349

>>15090837
Chad

>> No.15092396

Nitwits: Torture is effective in gaining information
Midwits: Torture is not effective in gaining information
Fullwits: The threat of torture is useful and effective in gaining information

To apply this to >>15090969 's question, I wouldn't torture the terrorist, I would tell the terrorist "If you don't tell me where the bomb is and how to defuse it I will send you to a black site where you will live the rest of your days being tortured. If you do, I'll just send you to jail for a few years." Of course, this method only works if your government has a reputation of both not breaking promises of torture, and fulfilling promises of not torturing people

>> No.15092575

>>15092396
that’s only applies if you already have hard evidence that the terrorist did the dirty in which case you could prosecute them regardless