/lit/ - Literature

[Keynes No.15073015]

Do you also feel like reading novels just doesn't give you anything? By reading and accumulating more knowledge and reading greats like Schopenhauer, Kant, Nietzsce etc. I feel like I'm always learning something new; but with literature I might feel good while I'm reading but when I finish it's like I wasted all that time and learned barely anything. How can literature compete with the knowledge gained from reading the greats of philosophy?

[Anonymous No.15073025]

>>15073015

I like Chuggsie. She's one of the best side characters in all of anime. The best part is the way they don't attempt to gloss over her drinking problem but they also don't worry about it. Their attitude is more-or-less "yeah, she drinks all the time, but it's OK, everything will work out" and the show is comfy enough they can get away with it.

CHUGGSIE FTW!

[Anonymous No.15073030]

Do you also feel like reading philosophy just doesn't give you anything? By reading and accumulating more knowledge and reading great biographies like Rockefeller, Melon, Carnegie, etc... I feel like I'm always learning something new; but with philosophy I might feel good while I'm reading but when I finish it's like I wasted all that time and learned barely anything. How can philosophy compete with the knowledge gained from reading the greats of history?

[Anonymous No.15073035]

The only purpose of fiction is telling others that you've read said author. Namely, psued shit.
You're absolutely right about non-fiction.

[Anonymous No.15073037]

>>15073015
The purpose of literature is to provide the reader with an aesthetic experience, not to teach them anything*1. When one listens to a piece by Mozart one does not expect to 'learn something new' because one is not retarded enough to assume the purpose of music is pedagogy. Apply that to literature.

*1: At least not cerebrally. I believe that literature can teach us many spiritual lessons.

[Anonymous No.15073039]

I read textbooks when I want to gain knowledge, I read literature as a form of entertainment.

[Anonymous No.15073052]

>>15073030
>le clever reddit reply XD
Nice way of conceding defeat, that the only thing you can say is copy paste his post and reverse

[Anonymous No.15073053]

>>15073037

The purpose of school is to provide the student with an aesthetic experience, not to teach them anything*1. When one listens to a piece by Mozart one does not expect to 'learn something new' because one is not retarded enough to assume the purpose of music is pedagogy. Apply that to school.

*1: At least not cerebrally. I believe that school can teach us many aesthetic lessons about popularity.


>is /lit/ the most vain board on 4chan?? Probably

[Anonymous No.15073064]

>>15073052
Copy pasting a post with 3 words changed shows how generic it is that such a small change causes an entirely new meaning.

[Anonymous No.15073074]

>>15073015
Can you name one thing you've actually learned from reading the likes of Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Kant? I don't mean what you've learned about their systems of philosophy, because that would be equivalent to saying 'What I learned from Crime and Punishment was that Raskolnikov killed the old lady', but what you have actually learned about the world, yourself, or anything else?

I guarantee you it is nothing.

[Anonymous No.15073080]

>>15073053
Did you think this was a clever reply? I'm genuinely embarrassed for you.

[Anonymous No.15073085]

>>15073064
You can completely change the meaning of a text by changing a word in any text you dumbfuck

[Anonymous No.15073092]

>>15073015
You have to understand more about why it's written. Postmodern novels bespeak postmodernism the philosophy. The arguments against modernism or realism are written in postmodernism. It's a perfect extension

[Anonymous No.15073127]

>>15073085
You can completely change the look of a duck by changing a beak in any picture you dumb duck

If you had thought out expressions and articulate points that wouldn't work.

[Anonymous No.15073134]

>>15073080
I'm not the one posting garbage with nothing to back it up. Might as well say anything.

[Anonymous No.15073173]

>>15073015
>>15073025
>anime
>moe
>comfy
>he thinks he "learned something" from someone else's metaphysics
>the greats
The only thing this board is good for is reading recommendations. Actually speaking with you trogs is an exercise in fucking self-abuse. You're all desperately American and desperately self-immersed. You don't read philosophy to "learn something." It isn't a fucking science, nor should it be.

[Anonymous No.15073182]

>>15073092
Awful response. The worst people read novels so they can place them within history.

[Keynes No.15073188]

>>15073074
At the end of the day, it's not like you can do THAT MUCH with the knowledge you get from philosophy; but that's not the point, you can get to discuss with people and most important of all, it has an extremely positive effect on your thinking abilities, the ideas that you're able to process, the different manners of thinking and considering things. Sure, literature may provide you with something similar in terms of feeling and maybe some empathy, but there is a big difference between feeling and thinking, besides the fact that literature in general doesn't increase the amount of knowledge and idea-processing you'd have about the World.

I mean, if you went from back to back reading through all of Western philosophy and thought, you'd have a pretty good repository of knowledge and ability in entertain ideas and thoughts, but if you went through all of literature, you'd maybe have a hell of a great time but come out of it feeling like you've learned one tenth of what you'd learn reading non-fiction, if not less.

[Anonymous No.15073204]

>>15073127
Actually no dumbtard. Give me any text and I can make it say the opposite by literally changing changing one word. That must sound like an intellectual feat to you because you are a reddit moron, but it's really not.
You obviously have nothing to say against OP because your entire schtick consists of lazy shitposting, but that is expected from a mental midget.

[Anonymous No.15073207]

>>15073188
Again: name how your thinking skills have been improved or what you have learned from reading any of those philosophers.

[Anonymous No.15073221]

>>15073207
>tool kit of arguments
>ability to deconstruct other peoples arguments and their flaws
>able to bullshit about topics I know nothing about
>able to adapt to new fields quickly
>ability to examine things in society through different lenses
>able to find meanings in media and art without having others have to tell me what to think
>able to seem smart when out in social settings
>be the guy that reads philosophy in your friend group
>able to argue all sides of any political argument in order to make tryhards shut the fuck up
>able to cry myself to sleep because knowledge is a curse

[Anonymous No.15073223]

>>15073015
>discover Schiller
>the meaning of life is in aesthetics

oh wow, imagine going through thousands of years of philosophy to find that one out

[Anonymous No.15073224]

>>15073204
Do you even read books?

>A glance at the occupational statistics of any country of mixed
religious composition brings to light with remarkable frequency2
a situation which has several times provoked discussion
in the Catholic press and literature,3
and in Catholic congresses
in Germany, namely, the fact that business leaders and owners of
capital, as well as the higher grades of skilled labour, and even
more the higher technically and commercially trained personnel
of modern enterprises, are overwhelmingly Protestant.

You can't change the meaning of this with a couple words.

[Anonymous No.15073226]

>>15073221
You must be 18 to post here.

[Anonymous No.15073232]

>>15073173
But what if it is a science?

[Keynes No.15073235]

>>15073207
>Again: name how your thinking skills have been improved or what you have learned from reading any of those philosophers.

I've increased my capacity for thought and accumulating knowledge massively; I can't stress this enough. I have improved my articulation, thinking abilities, I can discern what arguments are failed and contradictory in another person's speech, as when he is using a logical fallacy; I can understand where his arguments come from and better understand the point he's trying to get at, and how I can better counter his argument; besides the incredible intellectual improvement that derives from the intense curiosity that the learning of philosophy engenders. While before I'd be an ignroant prick, with a deeper study of philosophy I have come to not only understand the World better, but to be even marvelled by it. It makes you curious and to question things, and by this method it massively increases your thinking abilites and intellectual curiosity.

[Anonymous No.15073239]

>>15073232
>what if this discipline external to all the definitions of a science is in fact a science
yeah what if

[Anonymous No.15073245]

>>15073224
>A glance at the occupational statistics of any country of mixed
religious composition brings to light with remarkable frequency2
a situation which has several times provoked discussion
in the Catholic press and literature,3
and in Catholic congresses
in Germany, namely, the fact that business leaders and owners of
capital, as well as the higher grades of skilled labour, and even
more the higher technically and commercially trained personnel
of modern enterprises, are overwhelmingly Jewish.

Boom. Not only I COMPLETELY changed the meaning of the whole paragraph. I turned it from a bland remark into a problematic, politically charged, controversial and shitstormy text by changing ONE word.

[Anonymous No.15073246]

>>15073224
mate in 1: change last word to Catholic

[Anonymous No.15073247]

>>15073015
Anime nigger you need to read some Tolstoy.
Was Heya Camp worth watching btw?

[Anonymous No.15073250]

Imagine being this obsessed with 'learning' past the formative years. I'd guess you didn't develop enough as a child, had shit education, never acquired a tradable craft, spent too much time on videogames and comicbooks, and now you feel inadequate, incomplete, desperately trying to improoooove to overcompensate.

[Anonymous No.15073252]

>>15073250
this is what I've thought, my answer would be "I learned to chill the fuck out"

[Keynes No.15073256]

>>15073239
It doesn't matter if it is a science or not; it isn't. By any modern standards it doesn't fulfill the modern criteria that we have thus far established to consider it a science, but it isn't even the point. The study of philosophy has the purpose to bring you not only knowledge about things by a perspective unbound by the limits of science, but most especially to bring out the curiosity in us and to be marvelled by the World.
"admirari id est philosophari" : to marvel is to philosophize.

Besides, we do know that the greatest scientists in history not only took a deep interest in philosophy but actively encouraged it, not in order to further science itself - because as we all know philosophy isn't science -, but because a philosophical mind aprrehends and increases one's interest in deeper questions that profoundly affect a scientist's ability to question and to reason in a positive way.

[Keynes No.15073261]

>>15073250
If you really think that there comes a time that you stop continously learning; if you really think that there's no more learning after some point instead of continuously acquiring new thoughst and ideas, then you really are a pseud who doesn't even deserve to be on this board. Please neck yourself.

[Anonymous No.15073263]

>>15073221
>>15073235
you know that the "self-improvement" and "learning" propaganda is aimed at making a good worker out of you?

your posts could be used as a job posting, your qualification "love learning, thinking, problem solving, development, experience, progress"

I mean, you've read so much and all you can come up with are the common buzzwords

[Anonymous No.15073266]

>>15073239
What is science then? if you say that mathematics is not a science then fine you have a narrow definition of science. It is different from learning about our existence, which is what philosophy and mathematics are about. Philosophy is a way to learn something.

[Keynes No.15073275]

>>15073250
To live is to continuously learn; if you don't have that, you're a pseud, neck yourself.

>>15073263
That's a really stupid argument and a false comparison; philosophy is literally the least desirable major you could do in order to further one's career; one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other, you pseud. Look, if you had studied it, maybe you'd know.

Also, so far you have brought absolutely zero arguments as to how literature is any better than philosophy, and have not even begun to tackle the arguments as to the lesser utility of ltierature reading.

[Anonymous No.15073276]

>>15073256
there isn't a question of whether philosophy is a science or not, but there is a legal attempt to use scientific methods to solve philosophical problems

I thought you would know at least that much

[Anonymous No.15073283]

>>15073226
>give reasons
>insults age
I've been posting here for so long my shitposting alone is almost of legal age.
>>15073263
nigga its called critical thinking and it's all philosophers do. It's a skill set that only works if you have other goals to acomplish. Get over yourself.

[Anonymous No.15073288]

>>15073275
I've only made one post in the thread, and good work in not understanding my post. I wonder how many books went over your head.

[Keynes No.15073297]

>>15073276
>>15073288
Doesn't change the fact that philosophy is many times greater in utility in reading and acquiring knowledge about the World instead of memorizing useless characters' names and what they ate for lunch or not. Look, let's be honest here; the learning of ideas that humanity has fought to achieve during centuries and millenia will always be more important than literature, and will especially be more useful for you in life. Sure, there is some value in literature too, but not to the point that you will gain anything by reading more than 4 books in a year.

Don't reply. I won't read it, faggot.

[Anonymous No.15073315]

there is nothing to accumulate, everything fades, there are only experiences, and those disappear with time, the most profound experiences are the ones that affect you on every level: intellectual, aesthetic, ethical, personal etc. which only the arts can provide

don't get me wrong I love philosophy it's just that you're arguing from a flawed basis, as if there is any way to not "waste" time

[Anonymous No.15073317]

>>15073283
>critical thinking

everyone brags about having that

can you guys come up with a post praising philosophy without sounding like a middle schooler talking about his life goals, or can you at least bring out Kant or Schopenhauer to help you

I mean, if you're really that interested in thinking, you can read literature, improve your vocabulary and do the thinking yourself?

[Anonymous No.15073331]

>>15073221
>>15073235
Ok last time I'm asking you because you keep not answering: GIVE ME A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED WITH PHILOSOPHY. YOU SAY IT HAS HELPED YOU. GIVE A SPECIFIC INSTANCE IN WHICH IT HAS HELPED YOU.

[Anonymous No.15073334]

>>15073297
you keep repeating yourself, read chapter two of the book titled "why philosophy is better than literature" and report to us what the author thought about it

[Anonymous No.15073360]

>aww yes, I can acquire knowledge
>gets BTFO'd by anons who don't even bother with proper punctuation

incels

[Anonymous No.15073504]

>>15073256
>It doesn't matter if it is a science or not; it isn't.
I was being sarcastic, you autist.

[Anonymous No.15073532]

>>15073297
You're continuing to confuse the study of rhetoric with philosophy.

[Anonymous No.15073547]

>>15073015
I read novels because they're fun; like music, movies or even cartoons. Sometimes learning for it's own sake can be fun, but these days I try to spend my time learning things that I have a concrete use for.

[Anonymous No.15073583]

>>15073331
>>15073317
When I'm researching for a summary judgement motion I'm able to come up with arguments that are outside the traditional motion components. Generally it'll be something along the lines of the opposing side has provided no evidence for some element of their cause of action and it should be ruled on by the judge as a matter of law. But, lets say I'm writing a reply to someone saying we missed an element. The whole "critical thinking" thing comes into play in a few ways. By researching case law I'm able to find other scenarios in which certain evidence shows certain elements, though none of it is ever exactly on point. The evidence provided though can be argued that it does prove a specific element. While you wouldn't specifically say in the brief that it's the idea of platonic forms or lacan's the Real, I'm able to see evidence differently than most other lawyers that take evidence at it's face value. These kinds of arguments get the judge goin' because they are generally bored as fuck and want to get everything over with. When going to court, using things like lessons from the Rhetoric I'm able to gauge the judge and my opponent, using specific rhetorical devices (guided by philosophical and jurisprudential presuppositions) to convince them I should win.

Sorry for being vague earlier.

[Anonymous No.15073589]

>>15073266
>if you say that mathematics is not a science then fine you have a narrow definition of science.
I didn't say this.
>It is different from learning about our existence, which is what philosophy and mathematics are about. Philosophy is a way to learn something.
This is a poor comparison. Philosophy doesn't tend to require hard justifications (proofs) unless we're talking about the analytics (and, even then, most actual mathematicians agree that the proofs offered by the analytics don't always stand up to scrutiny). Philosophy has no real function beyond the personal. If you're looking for a subject to tell you more about the world, you should really be studying one or more of the natural sciences. Philosophy works to augment and improve your own metaphysics. Everyone has their own speculative take on the fundamental nature of reality, regardless of whether or not they articulate it. The purpose of philosophy tends to be to improve and expand upon this speculation. However, it remains both speculative and personal. Science can plunder philosophy from time to time, but philosophy is not a science.

[Anonymous No.15073611]

>>15073583
>These kinds of arguments get the judge goin'
Can you prove that it's your study of philosophy that has genuinely helped augment your understanding of caselaw? How do you know it isn't simply placebo - as in, studying philosophy is recognised as a cultural valid practice and, by engaging in it, you feel more confident in your own intelligence? You would have to actually demonstrate how Lacan's ideas influenced your take on a certain case mechanistically.

[Anonymous No.15073638]

>>15073015
Fiction teaches you about life and about perspective. Because of fiction I know what it's like to be a woman, a faggot, a nigger, a niggerfaggot, a seaman, a sadist, a 19th century russian aristocrat etc. etc. And I can apply this knowledge everytime I interact with people of all walks of life. Many times fiction also teaches you about philosophy, history, moral or specific topics. You wanna be a soulless STEM-fag who only reads about philosphy and science? Do as you please fren. But you can't deny that there absolutely is a ton of value to gain from literature.

[Anonymous No.15073664]

>>15073611
I'm not sure. It may be placebo, but anecdotal evidence of other students in law school not ever wanting to "go against me" or when talking with lawyer friends who seem like what I could only describe as NPC's shows that they really don't think deeply about any of it. I didn't make perfect grades in law school because I "thought too much outside the box" and didn't regurgitate like the top students did. Professors liked it for discussion outside of class over beers. I made a girl cry once in jurisprudence by calling the field a bunch of indoctrinated mercenaries. I think having read philosophy I'm able to approach case law with a far more critical eye. Most lawyers will simply look for their argument on the opinions face. Look for a few quotes that show exactly what they want and move on. Either because of time restraints or they really can't think that critically about it. The ideas and reasons behind why judges make decisions beyond "another judge before me did it" are fascinating. The excuse of stare decisis is a powerful one, but looking past it can be useful, just as using it is useful. Being exposed to different modes of political though and legal theory have exposed me to a bunch of stuff most lawyers don't use in their litigation toolkit. Just because someone has a JD doesn't mean they know a whole lot beyond some rules in a few areas and the local procedure. They don't teach how to practice. They don't teach how to think critically. They don't teach history or context. They teach you how to read opinions and glean a rule from it. They are limited by the neo-liberal ideological framework of the law itself. It's very limiting. Now I'm just rambling. Fun stuff to think about. I unno. You are probably right.

[Anonymous No.15073670]

>>15073025
when has anime seen drinking as a problem? actually asking, literallty cant think of a single time. maybe as a consequence but never as an isolated issue.

[Anonymous No.15073677]

>>15073015
>>15073025
Fucking idiot anime posters

[Anonymous No.15073737]

>>15073677
I honestly am starting to think that most anime narrows the mind along only being able to express and understand certain archetypes. It's like a more widely known precursor to soijack posting. Every anime poster is either a midwit or a pseud looking for their daily dose of validation.

[Anonymous No.15073745]

>>15073737
This is why legend of the galactic heroes is the only /lit/ anime.

[Anonymous No.15073773]

>>15073737
Anime is way too focused on maximizing the impact of very basic emotional aesthetics to achieve much. Miyazaki himself has talked about this.

[Anonymous No.15073786]

>>15073773
>Anime is way too focused on maximizing the impact of very basic emotional aesthetics to achieve much.
Yes, exactly.

[Anonymous No.15073795]

>>15073737
>Every anime poster is either a midwit or a pseud looking for their daily dose of validation
Like you're doing now?

[Anonymous No.15073808]

>>15073015
What are you reading contemporary lit?

[Anonymous No.15073823]

>>15073795
>I'm seeking validation
Yes, and? Everyone is seeking validation of one sort or another at all times. That doesn't necessarily make us all pseuds or a midwits. The point is that anime posters are either pseuds or midwits, and their attempts at seeking attention are deeply unsubtle and unhelpful more often than not.

[Cyberbird No.15074139]

>I honestly am starting to think that most anime narrows the mind along only being able to express and understand certain archetypes. It's like a more widely known precursor to soijack posting. Every anime poster is either a midwit or a pseud looking for their daily dose of validation.

[Anonymous No.15074148]

>>15074139
This is pretty meta.

[Anonymous No.15074957]

>>15073015
>with literature I might feel good while I'm reading but when I finish it's like I wasted all that time and learned barely anything.
We go to literature, where at least the artistic conceit of fiction is upfront (while a historical work may be the product of inadequate knowledge, malicious omission, personal bias, ect.) -- at least here, the generative power of the author's reality (and their character) is on trial, to be taken or left without further epistemic inertia to impinge on future understanding.

>How can literature compete with the knowledge gained from reading ... philosophy?
It's working directly with understanding, where philosophy is hacking through the weeds.