/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15060053]

>heteronormativity
>toxic masculinity
>lived experience
>white fragility
Why can't I take these subjects or the people interested in them seriously? Am I really just the unaware cog in the patriarchal machine that they say I am? Are any of these things worth reading about?

[Anonymous No.15060119]

>>15060053
There's no substance to any of it, they created an unfalsifiable dogma for themselves and you will only lose your grasp on what matters if you indulge in any of it

[Anonymous No.15060149]

>>15060053
Heteronormativity makes sense because it’s literally the ideological reproduction of the same.

Toxic masculinity isn’t real, there are simply toxic people regardless of gender. White/ male fragility is the same, it’s just a way of giving a historical and cultural determination to an experience which is actually universal, through which minorities can make us feel bad for be sins of our forefathers. I don’t buy it.

[Anonymous No.15060158]

>>15060053
They're all kind of 'true' just not in the way the people who use these terms want them to be. Biggest meme there is 'lived experience' though

[Anonymous No.15060166]

>>15060053
Portland deserves to have millions of niggers imported from the rest of the country. Just send them all there, see how long they continue to act like that lol

[Anonymous No.15060191]

>>15060053
>Why can't I take these subjects or the people interested in them seriously?
You will probably have to take it seriously when the state apparatus start acting on it.

[Anonymous No.15060194]

>>15060158
biggest meme for me is "my truth." it upsets me every fucking time i hear it.
"speak your truth"
"i have to find my truth"
"she's just saying her truth. that's her truth."

jesus FUCKING christ

[Anonymous No.15060200]

>>15060158
I tried to get a friend of mine, bit of an SJW that lad, to explain "lived experience" to me and it seemed to me to just be personal testimony, which leaves me not understanding what's so novel or important about it. Criminal law and forensic science can already tell us that personal testimony of events can be unreliable; what am I missing here? Am I thinking about this too rationally?

[Anonymous No.15060203]

>>15060053
you can't take them seriously because you're far too influenced by how you see the speakers that you can't consider things objectively. Masculinity obviously has toxic elements, gayness is definitely considered normal, white people are (rightfully, i would say) defensive about demanding respect. don't get caught up in semantics.

[Anonymous No.15060206]

>>15060149
>it’s literally the ideological reproduction of the same.
Could you explain this more please? Asking in good faith

[Anonymous No.15060208]

>Am I really just the unaware cog in the patriarchal machine
probably

[Anonymous No.15060317]

>>15060053
Critical Theory doesn't exist to be useful or constructive. It exists to analyze and deconstruct.
This is an arbitrary dismemberment of the object under examination.
This is supposed to be a tool to get insight or inspiration.
That is obviously not how this tool is being used.
The tool is being used not to inspire a new paradigm, but instead the dismemberment is used as a substitute for constructive imagination.

The interesting thing is that pretty much all Ideologies are doing this weird substitution in the same ways.

Embrace Pragmatism, friend

[Anonymous No.15060344]

>>15060053
Toxic masculinity is real, but people forget that its based.

[Anonymous No.15060354]

>>15060053
>another gender thread
Why is /pol/ leaking

[Anonymous No.15060391]

>>15060200
>Criminal law and forensic science can already tell us that personal testimony of events can be unreliable; what am I missing here? Am I thinking about this too rationally?
"Lived experience" is a direct counter to the obvious fact of the unreliability of personal testimony. It is the response of people who are told that their anecdotal evidence is not a substitute for actual facts but who refuse to accept this reality, and have instead invented a new phrase which essentially means, "My individual experience is just as valid as your facts and statistics, if not more so".

[Anonymous No.15060392]

>>15060053
Personally I am repelled by the false consciousness of these terms. They are boiled down, generalized assumptions completely sterilized of any personal force. Why should I care personally when I am being treated abstractly as a generic? Why should I accept your condescending moral values? I don't even necessarily disagree with all of it on paper, but the presumptuousness and and sanctimoniousness of it is insulting and contemptible.

These concepts are also mobilized to divide and misdirect genuine notions of class as well. As per the Marxist critique of liberalism as the province of a comfortable upper middle class social segment that would prefer to excuse itself from any complicity and culpability in systemic class problems which are the underlying cause of whatever they claim to militate against.

[Anonymous No.15060400]

>>15060200
It's a made up term for something that already exists but since it's new it can be used for whatever they want.

[Anonymous No.15060650]

>>15060206
Not him, but it's the same phenomenon that causes white people to think anime characters are white while japs think anime characters are japs. Or more generally people tend to assume stick figures are similar to themselves and those around them, despire being literal stck figures,
We read what we know in other things unless given very strong reason to think that the other isn't similar.

[Anonymous No.15060663]

>>15060119
God this is so true. I feel like I lost a couple key years to trying to debunk this bullshit. it's just negativity and booby-trapped language, I truly hate it

[Anonymous No.15060676]

>>15060200
You are being too white while trying to think about those things, anon. that's what these arguments amount to.

[Anonymous No.15060681]

Toxic masculinity is completely legit though. Ever wonder why you almost never see white girls starting fist fights for no reason? That's why.

[Anonymous No.15060692]

>>15060681
Sheboons need to keep their toxic masculinity in check desu.

[Anonymous No.15060698]

>>15060354
this is obviously a race thread and that's a /lit/ subject

[Anonymous No.15060706]

>>15060392
the point is you become a rolled over cow who can't experience insult or contempt anymore.

[Anonymous No.15060721]

>>15060681
that's just a really lazy blanket statement for emotional issues. it's not even that complex, they just want to paint certain men as less human because they have anger

[Anonymous No.15060731]

Niggers and kikes kvetch while handing out strikes.

[Anonymous No.15060770]

>>15060206
It’s the mechanism that promotes the “nuclear family” as the foundation for society. Because you can only have kids through heterosexuality (IE literal reproduction), entrenched in that idea is the notion that herero relationships must be foundational to society, and anything else is a deviation from it. So you’re not only reproducing children through heterosexuality, you’re reproducing the hetero status quo, AKA heteronormativity. This excludes queer cultures from mainstream/public spaces, which is why you have a lot of people on /pol/ who think openly gay or trans people in public means that homosexuality is being “forced” on them, when that isn’t the case at all, heterosexuality is the “enforced” standard, and anything outside of that is exceptional or deviant.

Things are changing, of course: that’s why you see trans and gay people appearing a lot more in popular culture.

[Anonymous No.15060789]

>>15060721
You're right, it is a broad term. But it's meant to broadly refer to emotional issues that are particularly common among men and (as the idea goes) strongly associated with some conventional ideas of masculinity.

The argument isn't that masculinity is toxic. A lot of masculine traits are obviously good - things like bravery, responsibility and strength. But a lot of people do stupid things in the name of machismo. Like constantly escalating arguments or acting like a straight up sexual predator. Not that these things are intrinsically masculine and therefore masculinity is bad, but for a lot of people it's a result of what they think being masculine is. Especially among some cultures like niggers and spics.

[Anonymous No.15060859]

>>15060789
I hope you'll die a painful death as soon as possible.

[Anonymous No.15060868]

>>15060859
Nvm I read the rest of your post. Carry on.

[Anonymous No.15060899]

>>15060789
hm I never thought of it like that i guess that's my white privilege

[Anonymous No.15060909]

>>15060789
Why do I need to come to 4chan of all places to read an understanding of toxic masculinity that makes any useful sense?

[Anonymous No.15060921]

>>15060119
One big problem is that they lose emotional control when any of this stuff is challenged. They don't even try to defend it on objective/data-driven grounds; they just attack the person asking questions. It's indicative of a cult more than anything else.

[Anonymous No.15060932]

>>15060391
>have instead invented a new phrase which essentially means, "My individual experience is just as valid as your facts and statistics, if not more so".
God this hits the nail on the head so hard; fuck this fucking bullshit gah. I have friends who use this term unironically

[Anonymous No.15060939]

>>15060203
>Masculinity obviously has toxic elements

Define the term 'toxic' in a non-circular and non-question-begging manner.

[Anonymous No.15060947]

>>15060932
>gah
you sound like you use terms like "toxic masculinity" a lot. Enjoy your weed, Jamal

[Anonymous No.15060985]

>>15060770
But heterosexual reproduction IS the foundation for society

[Anonymous No.15061001]

>>15060681
Do you see men starting fist fights for no reason?

[Anonymous No.15061010]

>>15061001
In every busy nightclub in every shitty town ever.

[Anonymous No.15061024]

>>15060681
Almost like hormonal & neurological differences that lead to different behaviours exist.

[Anonymous No.15061101]

>>15060859
>nu-/lit/ doesn't even read the whole post before responding...
Are all you new faggots from /pol/?

[Anonymous No.15061111]

>>15060770
but it's just a fact of nature we're a species like any other. This is all a rage against nature. and nature will fucking destroy us. queer faggot culture, give me a break. let them go back and do what they do in the dark, nobody wants to see that

[Anonymous No.15061144]

>heteronormativity
>toxic masculinity
These are legit.
>lived experience
>white fragility
These are ideology.

[Anonymous No.15061146]

If you haven't noticed this stuff while browsing 4chan you are retarded

[Anonymous No.15061166]

>>15060344
It's really not, given that current masculinity trends indicate that one should be both a loud, aggressive ape and a submissive, disenfranchised victim at the same time.

[Anonymous No.15061175]

>>15060789
This is incorrect. Toxic masculinity simply refers to a set of norms for masculine behavior that becomes harmful to both the men that practice them and to those around them, a simple example is how men are less likely to visit a doctor due to restrictions on how a man can experience or express pain.

[Anonymous No.15061177]

I don't know why /pol/ doesn't just hijack "toxic masculinity" for their own purposes.

Toxic masculinity is being a nigger. Non-toxic masculinity is being a responsible traditionalist.

[Anonymous No.15061189]

>>15060053
>Why can't I take these subjects or the people interested in them seriously?
Because they are retarded and there is nothing of value that you can get from their theories.
That important people take this crap seriously tells a lot about how badly educated our elite is.

[Anonymous No.15061226]

>>15060053
>>15060158
Well, they're all definitely true, and there's also part of >>15060149 going on as well. It's easiest to break these things down individually, or as these vapid simps would say, "unpack" them
>heteronormativity
The idea that being straight and wanting monogamy is the normal way to be. This critique stands in face of the facts of 1) it's quite literally the norm to be straight and seek monogamy 2) there's literal biological evidence that supports this (a preponderance of it, in fact) and 3) American English speakers are too stupid to not conflate "normal" with "good" or "morally correct". The supporting argument is the idea and the facts that the moral compunction (the actual target of the critique) to insist people only be straight and seek monogamy isn't historically ubiquitous or a hard biological requirement, so fags should be allowed to have whatever sort of relationship they want. That sentiment is technically sound, but it's also a moral argument and not a fact. American leftists confuse facts with value judgement, more shocking news at 11.
>toxic masculinity
The idea that """"traditional""" (read: invented within the last 50 years) concepts of masculinity produce men who are violent, aggressive, and overly competitive. This is technically true, especially when you consider that so many components of contemporary masculinity have fuck all to do with any meaningful or useful measure of masculinity and it's all basically a pissing contest between who can fuck more and act like t he biggest ape. Regardless, the issue is that toxic masculinity has extended from describing those components of """"traditional"""" masculinity that afford scumbags the opportunity to assert they are valuable members of society to somehow describe anyone who is masculine to any degree whatsoever. Now, all masculinity is toxic because of idiots boiling down non-arguments to the point of America leftists only suggesting the worst case possible scenario as living fact and American rightists - for whatever reason - proudly adopting those useless criticisms into their identity as some form of anti-establishment activity.
>live experience
I've never heard this shit before, but I'm sure it started in a logically sound place and then misguided idiots who thought they were super smart took it to illogical extremes and now it's basically propaganda cultism, like the rest of it.
>white fragility
Very close to toxic masculinity, but the center piece here that gives it truth is that the majority of white people - like the majority of all people - are mediocre at best and have fuck all to brag about besides being a normal person trying to live a normal life. The problem is that racism in the US has led white Americans to believe they are actually responsible (or some distant European white ancestor they share 1/64th ancestry with) for basically everything, so they individually are better than other people despite the fact most of them are fat and uneducated.

[Anonymous No.15061255]

>>15060053
Nah dude. Crazy idpollers be crazy. Ignore them. They dont even fuck or chat or so anything fun they just sit around being earnest losers and complaining
PDX here, you'll never find a better crew than people who openly make fun of these fucks. Met mine in college and it's a blast, we still hang out.
Honestly just sad fat kids grown up I think. Pity

[Anonymous No.15061258]

>>15061175
The problem with "toxic masculinity" is that it sounds like what a crazy misandrist would you say. And could be easily replaced by "vicious", which doesn't have the gendered component.

[Anonymous No.15061266]

>>15061226
>white fragility, cont.
So, when faced with the reality that white people aren't actually better than everyone else simply for being alive, they chimp out (in defense of them, the racism is largely propaganda shoved on them by elites using the race/culture war to stay rich and keep workers functionally enslaved). This is why so many white people love to bring up racially unfortunate statistics until you start talking about Asians, at which point the only thing they have to fall back on is "MORE MONEY!!!" and "BIGGER DICK!!!".
Unfortunately, American leftists took this idea and against stretched it to an illogical extreme to argue that white people have never actually invented any useful or done anything good, and that everything white is actually terrible, which is an even bigger crock of shit than the idea that white people are responsible for everything that's good.

The unfortunate reality is that we can't address any of the actual issues from which these ideas originated, because it's all become such polarized horseshit that there's not even water in the well anymore. The second you suggest anything remotely in either direction of the US political spectrum, everyone's IQ's fucking drop out the bottom of the floor.

[Anonymous No.15061313]

>>15061226
>>15061266
kys

[Anonymous No.15061329]

>>15061313
Thanks for illustrating his point.

[Anonymous No.15061626]

>>15061226
Beautiful, thank you

[Anonymous No.15061721]

>>15060119
this is literally the only reason why this shit exists, it's just a way for the system to control the discourse and homogenize people easier. none of it means anything

[Anonymous No.15061768]

>>15060053
watch the documentary The Mask You Live In- quick hour thirty. it's good

[Anonymous No.15061798]

>>15060053
They're political expedients designed to delegitimize competing centers of power. In
When presented with words and concepts like this (or any word or concept for that matter), it's good practice to historicise them. Rather than asking *what* they are -- which would necessitate entering the paradigm from which they originated -- instead ask *why* they exist and *how* they are used. Never stoop to their level; never get your hands dirty.

[Anonymous No.15061888]

>>15061768
fuck off

[Anonymous No.15061920]

>>15060119
What is social theory for 500, Alex?

[Anonymous No.15063017]

>>15061111
>a fact of nature
This is a either a naturalist or an is/ought fallacy, but whatever way you look at it, what you said after is 100% indicative of hereronormative culture:
>let them go back and do what they do in the dark, nobody wants to see that
You’re prescribing a norm based on some anthropomorphic notion of “nature” that will punish us for going against her. And yet, it is nature herself who produced faggotry, because being gay does not exist outside the laws of nature. What you are doing is making a normative claim about what YOU believe is natural. That is not consistent with the reality of nature objectively, which, every now and again, produces homosexuals, whether you like it or not.

[Anonymous No.15063556]

>>15063017
But heterossexual relationships ARE the foundation of society and they are the norm.
Romantic relationships exist because of reproduction.

[Anonymous No.15063672]

>>15061146
This. Much of 4chan is a hotbed for these ideas of toxic masculinity, heteronormativity etc. which is why 4chan is often cited in academia as an example of a place which breeds these behaviours-- If you'll pardon the somewhat cringy term, 4chan is widely considered part of what some Feminist scholars call the "manosphere".

The thing about 4chan from an inside perspective that I think not many people understand though is that if you browse 4chan for a long time, you become desensitised to certain taboos and behaviours which would be considered off limits in any other place, and as a result you tend to notice them less. For example, the terms "nigger" and "faggot" are used as common parlance on 4chan to the point where they aren't even being used in an offensive context most of the time-- They've become neutral terms which results in them lacking the weight they carry irl. If you have no social frame of reference other than 4chan, then none of what these progressives are saying is going to make any sense because you're in the thick of it rather than examining it from an outsider's perspective.

[Anonymous No.15063717]

>>15063556
They are the literal foundation in the sense that they reproduce the next generation of citizens. But that does not mean that there is not also a reproduction of ideology at work. For one thing, it presupposes that population growth is always a moral good, when there are of course circumstances at which point that becomes untenable or unsustainable due to limited resources, jobs, housing and so on. that there is a percentage of the population who will not reproduce (IE, fags) is in no way a disservice to society, but many people will see it that way, not because there is a moral imperative to do so, but simply because it deviates from accepted normative standards. I think this is the sort of thinking we should discourage.

That said, there is definitely something unsettling in the way neoliberalism has taken up queer identity as part of its campaign to make everything into a consumable or media-marketed artefact. I am not worried about Jewish brainwashing, but rather the way in which many people will reject homosexuality, simply because it is being “forced down their throats”. If there wasn’t such a conscious effort to normalise it, I think many people would be less inclined to react very strongly against it.

[Anonymous No.15063730]

>>15063556
>>15063717
Don't forget polygamy type situations and the shape of the penis, evolution wise. Plays into what I generally read here about how everyone hates women and they only go after chads. Standard relationships are just another fucking societal construct.

[Anonymous No.15063742]

>>15063672
Toxic masculinity is the big one for 4chan, I think. It’s almost as though many of the men on here feel the need to live up to the negative perception that has been forced on them, to “fit the frame”, so to speak, when really they should be striving to affirm the positive aspects which are all too often overlooked. If 4chan is to be a boys club, really it should be one that does its absolute hardest to disrupt the negative expectations foisted upon it, but most posters would honestly rather occupy the mould than break out of it.

[Anonymous No.15063751]

Heteronormativity is obviously real. It is the dominant sexual force in our culture. Look at almost any film: all of them feature heterosexual relationships. But if a film is so bold as to include a homosexual relationship suddenly there’s a public outrage. This is just an example, but if you can’t see the overarching heteronormativity in society you are simply an NPC incapable of cultural introspection.

Toxic masculinity, while badly phrased, is also real. It refers to typically male behaviour which is deleterious to society or individuals. This includes male aggression (like 90% of violent criminals are male), men’s propensity to sexually harass and rape (almost all rapes are perpetrated by men; almost none are by women), men’s suppression of emotions, sexism, etc. I think this is obviously a male problem and calls for a reform of masculinity, but the phrase “toxic masculinity” is politically unsavvy.

Lived experience refers to the anecdotal experience of individuals within a particular group on things that cannot be statistically represented. Let’s take an example. A woman is at a party, gets grabbed by a man who pursues her aggressively until he spots that her boyfriend is nearby them. Instead of apologising to the woman, the man says sorry to the boyfriend, thus treating the woman as a piece of property over which the males have power. This is not going to be in a Gallup paper on sexism, but it is nevertheless a part of women’s lived experience.

White fragility I can’t defend. It is usually used as a way to shut down white people who express concerns about their culture being overrun by people from the third world. I had a girl from my uni tell me I’m displaying white fragility because I believe it is wrong for Europeans to be replaced by non-European immigrants. If I had to explain I’d say it is a term referring to white people’s defensiveness over their own culture, which the idpol types mistake for fragility.

[Anonymous No.15063771]

>>15063717
As a gay man I totally agree with this. How is having a literal parade about something normalizing it? If we want being gay to be treated the same as being straight then we shouldn't be having rainbow orgies in the streets of San Francisco

[Anonymous No.15063810]

>>15063771
I lived in Brighton for many years and while pride was a lot of fun, I was utterly disgusted by the sheer number of banks and corporations using it as an excuse to shill their wares. “We’re on your side, look at our employees waving rainbow flags out the windows of branded cars!”. Fuck off, you’re reducing personal identity to a hollow vehicle for your own gain. I don’t know if you were familiar with Mark Fisher’s Facebook group Boring Dystopia, but that kind of attitude was the perpetual target of satire on there. God I miss his insights so much.

[Anonymous No.15063868]

>>15063771
This is a surface level understanding of politics. Straight people don’t have parades because we live in a heteronormative society where straightness is always asserted and strengthened by the whole array of cultural forces. Films, books, commercials, products, religions, traditions, etc. are all essentially heternormative. Heteronormativity is engrained into our very thinking.

As for me, I am disgusted by faggots and think sodomy should be illegal, but the fact that I understand your own positions better than you demonstrates what an abject brainlet you are.

[Anonymous No.15063875]

>>15063742
Honestly, the fact that so many men on 4chan try to “fit the frame” out of insecurity speaks volumes for who they actually are. From what I’ve observed, a lot of men in 4chan seem really shy and emotionally sensitive and they’re filled with self-loathing because of that. I’ve also noticed that a lot of people into femdom on this site have a tendency to hold /pol/-tier opinions, which suggests that deep down they really only want to feel loved and taken care of. They romanticise masculinity because they feel as though that’s who they ought to be. Yet they only seem to focus on aspects of masculinity such as violence and sexually predatory behaviour rather than the positive aspects of masculinity. I find this bizarre since if you look at a lot of works of fiction about masculine men, these works often measure the hero by how noble and virtuous he is, whereas it’s the villain who tends to embody toxically masculine traits.

Unless you have some kind of outside point of reference to compare it to, I feel as though much of 4chan can be mentally poisonous for young men, which is why it’s important to not have your entire identity revolve around the site.

[Anonymous No.15063910]

>>15063875
>pol-tier opinions
Pol tier opinions are not examples of toxic masculinity. It is a fact that Europe is being overrun by brown people. A fact.

[Anonymous No.15063917]

>>15063910
That’s only one aspect of /pol/. I was referring more to how /pol/ views masculinity and the concept of gender.

[Anonymous No.15063961]

I want r*ddit to leave.

[Anonymous No.15063994]

>>15060053
They’re right about some things, but the loudest of them are just as retarded as the people they oppose so fervently.

[Anonymous No.15064022]

>>15060053
>>15060119
>>15060149
>>15060158
>>15060200
>>15060203
>>15060344
>>15060392
>>15060681
>>15060770
>>15061144
>>15061177
>>15061226
They are all legit, you just have to understand the language.
Sounds like a fun challenge. I will expose each concept and the intentions behind it and why it was originally created.
>heteronormativity
In freak communities, there is always some game of extremity played on their distinct freakiness, where an artificial order of rank is constructed entirely around this freakiness. "Heteronormativity" acts as the baseline for this freakiness, to which they can begin raising based on LGBT privilege characteristics. We can think, in comparison, that plebian is our version of "heteronorativity" on /lit/.
>Toxic masculinity
This is ressentiment against the excess power men have over women. This is why the power of men is christened "toxic". This is similar to Christians calling power "evil" out of ressentiment.
>Lived experience
A tool to give supremacy to the least privileged by sparking a fire of pity inside the adversary, instantly winning over millions in this enervated age.
>White fragility
Really means "white defense", where a white person would call out bullshit surrounding some LGBT nonissue, they would attach this little number in response to make them think defense was fragility. Basically a mental trick played on the adversary to confuse them.

[Anonymous No.15064026]

>>15063868
Not him but he does have a point, parades do not in any way normalise homosexuality, they celebrate it in a spirit of exceptionalism. While I understand the need to affirm self-distinction, it does run counter to the idea that homosexuality should be accepted as just as normal a sexuality as any other.

But also, holy shit, I’ve never seen a post so riddled with cognitive dissonance before.
>I understand the concept of heteronormativity more than a gay person, despite being completely homophobic, and not realising it is an impossible concept to fully comprehend while being totally embedded within its logic

[Anonymous No.15064041]

>>15063875
>I’ve also noticed that a lot of people into femdom on this site have a tendency to hold /pol/-tier opinions, which suggests that deep down they really only want to feel loved and taken care of.
You know absolutely nothing on the causes of desire for femdom, you armchair psycholoist. You really think people are watching videos of girls standing on them because they want to be "taken care of"? Jesus christ, why do idiots always feel a need to talk about shit they have absolutely no comprehension of?

[Anonymous No.15064081]

>>15064026
You don’t understand anything. Heterosexuals celebrate their sexuality in a spirit of exceptionalism also. They do it constantly within media and literature and tradition and culture and politics and even language. The only reason this does not seem notable to you is because you live in a heteronormative culture. Pride parades are the exact same thing.

So until media and culture has fully accepted faggotry the pride parades will be necessary. Of course the other option is to cure them all with a bullet to the head.

[Anonymous No.15064109]

>>15063875
I think you should be very, very careful about making assumptions about why these people want to fit the frame, I don’t think you can approach it from a reduction that treats 4chan like a monolith. In doing so you’re no better than those who disparage it as a “white nationalist” website, when many posters who say nigger are not actually racist, they simply revel in the provocation. When I say these men try to fit the frame of other’s negative expectations, I am not attempting to diagnose who they actually are underneath the performance. I think it is important to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I know critics like Zizek claim that there is more truth in these online anonymous personas than the socially constrained beings we are in real life, but I think this also overlooks the way that people can take certain aspects of their character and exaggerate them beyond recognition, simply because there is no reason to hold back. In reality, identity is a perpetual negotiation between who we are without constraints, and who we are when social conditions dictate that we should behave to save face, but neither of which are fully “ourselves”. The only moments in which we are truly authentic is when we, fully exposed to the gaze of the other, express ideas which may incur harm or damage to ourselves, because there is no reason why we would put ourselves at such risk if we did not stand by the statement being made.

[Anonymous No.15064118]

>>15064081
>So until media and culture has fully accepted faggotry the pride parades will be necessary
They have though, do you not see the sheer number of companies who get involved with pride? Or the sheer number of queer films that are celebrated by critics or award ceremonies? What about the normalisation of drag queen story times? What about the success of ru Paul’s drag race, which is fucking massive right now? You are vastly underestimating just how much gay culture has been absorbed into the mainstream.

[Anonymous No.15064152]

>>15063017
a small number of homosexuals has an evolutionary basis (when there's an excess of men). Pushing for more "representation" of trannies and gays everywhere at every level of society is what's going to doom us, it's part of the global death cult. You'll never convince me that a child or teen destroying their reproductive organs through hormones or surgery is "okay". it's a symptom of a terminally ill society

[Anonymous No.15064172]

>>15064118
You are vastly overestimating it. Just because of a few notable events — all of which I admit are indicative of a certain cultural trend which has gained prominence among the liberal-minded bourgeoisie — you conclude that homosexuality has been inducted into the mainstream. The majority of films and books are still heteronormative, gays will still get bullied and disowned if they come out in most places, there is the always the threat of a backlash if gays are shown in media/video games, the religious are still opposed to homosexuality along with certain prominent political institutions. The idea that homosexuality is “normal” now is absurd. It is more normal than it used to be, but it is in no way normal.

[Anonymous No.15064176]

>>15064081

>exceptionalism

Nothing exceptional about being normal. Faggot.

[Anonymous No.15064183]

>>15060149
>sins
You mean successes. Much stems from envy because their own ancestors created nothing lasting or worthwhile. They didn't build beautiful cities or cathedrals, paint like the masters or produce the equivalent to Bach.

[Anonymous No.15064199]

>>15064152
See
>>15063717
I never claimed to be in favour of excessive promotion, I personally think that is a symptom of shallow neoliberal appropriations of identity than a step towards meaningful change (while also making it much harder for the average person to accept homosexuality as normal). I also have issues with trans-medicalism that celebrates trans people who undergo surgery, but ridicules those who are ether genderfluid or who are otherwise not interested in surgery (eg “transtrenders”). I think the idea that surgery is necessary for transitioning is a way to legitimise the non-essential body modification industry, and capitalises on people with gender dysphoria who have more money than sense (almost entirely privileged white males). There are so many nuances to my argument that seem to be sailing clean over your head, but who gives a shit, right? It’s all just sick, degenerate, modern society, and absolutely nothing to do with the neoliberal ideology that makes everything corrosive, regardless of sexuality.

[Anonymous No.15064205]

>>15060158
>lived experience
The left encourages narcissism. That people are important because they exist and not because they have done anything of value to others.

[Anonymous No.15064208]

>>15064183
That is armchair pop psychology and you know it.

[Anonymous No.15064218]

>>15063875
femdom is about being humiliated and dominated sexually it's just the typical "male domination" fantasy inverted on itself in order to provide pornographic novelty

[Anonymous No.15064220]

>>15064183
did yours? or were they illiterate pig farmers?

[Anonymous No.15064228]

>>15064172
Right, but my argument never was “homosexuality is totally accepted as normal”, but that it has been appropriated by the dominant hegemony as a cause to champion that is, if anything, making the lives of gay people much worse, because the average person is less likely to accept it if it’s being forced on them, and more likely to lash out at the individual rather than the system which heavily endorses it.

[Anonymous No.15064238]

>>15060392
>systemic class problems
Here is the brutal truth: most lower class people are lower class because they have lower impulse control. This correlates with low IQ, propensity to violence, all their family problems.
Lefties love to remove personal agency - aka shit decision-making - from the equation. Why? Because they can keep the vast poverty industry, the army of social workers and charities, and government funding alive and themselves perpetually employed - employed in well paid positions and THANKED for it.

[Anonymous No.15064246]

>>15064228
>making the lives of gay people much worse, because the average person is less likely to accept it if it’s being forced on them, and more likely to lash out at the individual rather than the system which heavily endorses it.
fucking delusional, stop projecting your own violent fantasies on "the average person"

[Anonymous No.15064253]

>>15064199
yeah no that does make sense the medical industry is a predator trying to eat up your body. it starts with your foreskin when you;re born. for the record I actually don't have a problem with homos or even trans as such, but the fact is they'll always be a small percentage of the population.

[Anonymous No.15064263]

>>15064238
damn bruh thanks for the steaming redpill fellow polbro, it's those well paid social workers behind this leftoid scheme

[Anonymous No.15064264]

>>15064246
Being on 4chan you of all people must’ve seen the sheer number of videos that show attacks on trans women who are out in public. I am not demonising the average person, but rather the system that makes homosexuality unpalatable to them by constantly forcing it down their throat. I don’t know how much clearer I can make this point.

[Anonymous No.15064285]

>>15064253
>the fact is they'll always be a small percentage of the population
Exactly. And until the elites realise this and make representation proportional to the actual number of gay and trans people, they are going to continue to face serious backlash against it, because most people will see it as brainwashing and coercion, rather than an actual reflection of reality.

[Anonymous No.15064293]

>>15060681
>no reason
There are reasons. Always. You just don't know what they are because you haven't been in the world much.
Trailer trash women will fight over a guy instead of two males fighting over a woman.
Also, low class males will pick fights with men who have too much to lose (middle class males) to risk assault charges, so they feel like a big man when the other backs away.
Many lower class people have a seething hatred for their social betters that would shock those same social betters.

[Anonymous No.15064307]

>>15060770
Trans and gays only flourish in times of excess. In hard times they are marginalized. For good reason too - they seldom work in any genuinely productive job.

[Anonymous No.15064377]

>>15064285
do you think there is an element of brainwashing to it though? to me it fits the """elite agenda""" (I say that with a sense of irony) only too well for a generation of young people to sterilize themselves medically and become slaves to their ideology and money system. like emperors who'd only allow eunuchs in their palaces

[Anonymous No.15064381]

>>15064253
>a small percentage of the population
Ultimately all social problems come down to overpopulation. A small percentage of the population - representative of homosexuals, trans and other deviants - now represent thousands, and hundreds of thousands of individuals who can influence greater society to a disproportionate extent. We need to stop our growth immediately and preserve current numbers or democracy will collapse under the sheer weight of authoritarian populism, the same you might have seen expressed in recent days by the disenfranchised Bernie supporters. When radical minorities are now minorities expressed in the hundreds of thousands, the complacent majority will be trampled.

[Anonymous No.15064383]

>>15064307
I don’t disagree about them being more accepted in times of excess (Bataille’s accursed share is incredibly relevant here), but define “productive”. I know quite a few gay and trans people in highly-regarded positions.

[Anonymous No.15064395]

>the same people who complain about micro-aggressions also complain about white fragility
>Feminists who get a mental meltdown when someone compliments them also complain about fragile masculinity
I get the hunch that this is all just projection, lads

[Anonymous No.15064404]

>>15064377
I wouldn’t go that far. I think it is simply a case of certain elites recognising that there is a bucketload of money to be made from the current gender-bending zeitgeist, and don’t really care about the repercussions on the individual. It’s not insidious, just utterly careless and amoral. It’s an interesting thought tho, especially in relation to emperors and eunuchs.

[Anonymous No.15064416]

>>15061226
>there's literal biological evidence that supports this
What is the biological evidence that supports that being straight and wanting monogamy is outght to be the norm?

[Anonymous No.15064424]

>>15064395
The fragility shit is a projection, 100%. It’s purely a rhetorical attempt to shift the power dynamic, which is to be expected from marginalised groups who don’t have a lot of choice except to gain a better footing through manipulation and other amoral tactics. Toxic masculinity and heteronormativity are very much real, however.

[Anonymous No.15064471]

>>15060053
Because they exist within a subjective framework with a complete lack of awareness of subjectivity. Like how “toxic masculinity” is suppose to imply that there are some harmful elements in certain forms of masculinity, but not realizing this harm is purely subjective and really any form of masculinity can be “toxic” to someone. Like a submissive and permissive father figure can be extremely harmful to a child, giving them no boundaries or sense of responsibility.

[Anonymous No.15064503]

>>15064471
I would argue that there are concrete, objective aspects of toxic masculinity that cannot be reduced to subjective experience. Domestic violence, or violence against women as a means of control, is one such example. Being groped or assaulted by a stranger is another. Just because a woman may experience or respond to those events in very different ways, doesn’t mean there isn’t consistency in the kinds of behaviours that women are talking about when they use the term. Keep in mind, toxic masculinity is not simply a placeholder for masculinity in general.

[Anonymous No.15064515]

>>15064503
>Keep in mind, toxic masculinity is not simply a placeholder for masculinity in general.
In practice, it's really just masculinity that feminists dont like. Especially funny when they themselves are its main contributors. Of course then they say "well women can contribute to it too!" but they never delve deeper into it, it's straight back to man bashing.

[Anonymous No.15064531]

>>15064515
But I’ve just given you specific examples, and ones in which women are in no way the “main contributors”. Certain (thick) women may use it as a stick to bash men in general with, but don’t take them to be the rule. You’re essentially inventing a strawwoman who fits all of your personal criticisms, rather than actually tackling the points that have been made.

[Anonymous No.15064563]

>>15063730
>shape of the penis, evolution wise.
WHY DO YOU BELIEVE BULLSHIT HENTAI PSEUDOSCIENCE THAT YOU READ ON THE INTERNET YOU FUCKING RETARDED?
Bet you also believe that males and females have the exact same average IQ.

[Anonymous No.15064564]

>>15064416
Using someone's anus to masturbate does not produce new life. So thats the biological part

[Anonymous No.15064570]

>>15064503
>Just because a woman may experience or respond to those events in very different ways, doesn’t mean there isn’t consistency in the kinds of behaviours that women are talking about when they use the term
Precisely what I mean by lack of understanding of subjectivity. Look at how many women in the middle east not only accept their position in their society, but even defend it. Or how common domestic violence is in lower income communities, yet is perpetuated by both genders within those communities. How many women are still willing to partner with men with known track records, stay with abusers even when they can go, etc. Also, look at how many people grow up being beaten and later in life are glad they were or remembered it fondly. Subjectivity is extremely flexible. But even then, even if we accept that there are consistent elements to it, what makes them belong to a masculinity and not just to individuals themselves. Do women not also beat men and threaten them with violence or ither means of control? Where is toxic feminity in the conversation? When have men paraded that they beat women as a virtue? Men don’t beat women, individuals do.

[Anonymous No.15064605]

>>15063751
>90% of violent criminals are male
I wonder if there are any other common factors among violent criminals. Perhaps another biological factor

[Anonymous No.15064607]

>>15064238
A variant of your statement is true. There is a cottage industry behind the "outrage mill" that the pseudo-left perpetuates. These are those upper middle class private liberal arts school graduates, usually women or minorities, who produce nothing of value but make a living amplifying and promoting outage. ("All white folx is demons. Pay me.")
This outrage machine usually has some basis in actual injustice, but it strategically distorts and perpetuates said injustice because of the parasitic economic relationships said outragers derive from it. There is a cynical for-profit motive to their outrage.

[Anonymous No.15064646]

>>15063810
>you’re reducing personal identity to a hollow vehicle for your own gain
You're reducing personal identity to what deviant impulses you indulge in. Alcoholism is not considered to be an "identity" and there are no alcoholic pride parades. Heroin users aren't reduced to some weed-meth-acid-heroin (WMAH) identity. Being a sodomite is a ridiculous basis for identity.

[Anonymous No.15064654]

>>15060053
There may be legitimate value in the concepts themselves, but, like most popular philosophical/political ideas, most people are so fast and loose with them that it all dissolves into nonsense, and the seething mob reigns supreme.

[Anonymous No.15064665]

>>15064022
stop mass quoting, it's cancerous and your post is garbage. kys

[Anonymous No.15064721]

Because these people just want to make you a simp

[Anonymous No.15064933]

>>15064570
I never said women aren’t capable of enabling men’s toxic behaviour, just that there are concrete examples of “toxic masculinity” that demonstrate the term doesn’t refer to masculinity in general. Women of course can have problematic attitudes/Stockholm syndrome towards their abusers, but that doesn’t in any way justify domestic violence, and the fact that you are trying to is disgusting. Where are these women you talk about who think they are better off for beaten black and blue by their husbands?

And also, it is entirely pointless to play a game of double standards/“but women ALSO commit domestic violence”, when every statistic on the subject overwhelmingly points to the fact that males are committing it in far greater numbers. And that number has only increased since many women now have no choice but to self-isolate with known abusers. What’s even worse is that you imply that violence is acceptable in some circumstances, but then play the victim as a man, saying “men suffer from female violence too!” You can’t even be consistent with your argument.

>Men don’t beat women, individuals do.
You are so committed to the erasure of male domestic violence that I can’t help but wonder if you might have some personal stake in the matter. It takes a serious amount of willpower and cognitive dissonance to ignore every bit of data and every death that points to the contrary. I am not saying EVERY man commits domestic violence, I am saying there is a serious problem with the way it is predominately males who commit it. This problem is precisely what toxic masculinity is talking about. Why are you so resistant to acknowledge this?

[Anonymous No.15065102]

>>15060053
What exactly are you looking for here, anon?
Do you want these terms explained?
Do you want book recs?
Or do you just want pats on the back for rejecting ideas you haven't properly engaged with?

[Anonymous No.15065144]

>>15060681
>never see white girls starting fist fights for no reason?
Nigga, that shit happens all the fucking time, women are catty as fuck.

[Anonymous No.15065153]

>>15060053
these terms describe some actually existing phenomena, but their use by retarded sjws has rendered the words themself so laughable and senseless you can't even use them seriously.
see
> neonazi
> "toxic" applied to anything
> ableism
etc. these words are inherently neutral, but heavily stained by people who use them the most

[Anonymous No.15065155]

>>15064564
posting on 4chan does not produce new life
is this biological evidence that we shouldn't be on here?

[Anonymous No.15065156]

>>15064424
I'll believe toxic masculinity is real when I stop getting ten contradictory definitions every time I ask people to explain it.
The fact that they're not calling it "machismo" or something similar proves it's just a Kafka trap that they can use to shut you down and say "see?" if you try to argue. There are male-centric traits that pretty much everyone agrees are negative- good thing we already have an umbrella term for that kind of behavior.
It's like how "effeminacy" can refer to any strain of bitchiness, pettiness, manipulation, and other behaviors overwhelmingly seen in women. There's no reason to say "toxic femininity" to mean "anything a woman does that I don't like" when more concise terms exist.

It boils down to the fact that I absolutely refuse to believe these kinds of people are ever arguing in good faith. Anytime someone's pulling new "terms" out of thin air, your eyebrows should raise.

[Anonymous No.15065159]

>>15064933
spooked by 'males', disregarded

[Anonymous No.15065185]

>>15064646
You have to understand that these people think sexual pleasure is a holy thing, and that yes, it should be the cornerstone of your identity.
Once someone forces themself to stop believing the primordial truth that a person's biological end is to reproduce, it's no surprise that the attempted redirecting of biological urges leads to bizarre fetishism capable of blotting out the spirit. Transgenderism is perhaps the ultimate case of this.

[Anonymous No.15065199]

>>15065185
I think they probably just want to be accepted by society without fear of being lynched.

[Anonymous No.15065206]

>>15064933
>I can’t help but wonder if you might have some personal stake in the matter
>the fact that you are trying to is disgusting
>Why are you so resistant to acknowledge this?
Ask me how I know with 100% certainty a hole wrote this.

[Anonymous No.15065216]

>>15065156
If they can lure you into a “Kafka trap” and shut you down, then you’re simply not that good at challenging them on their bullshit. Don’t ever settle for their tautological bending of definitions, because in doing so they’re only watering their argument down by letting the term encompass anything and everything they want, which is bad intellectual practise. All you have to do is get them to try to separate their definition of “toxic masculinity” from “masculinity”, and if they’re as dumb or as sneaky as you say, they won’t be able to do it, because they’ve blurred the line to a point of indistinguishability. Then accuse them of being a biological determinist, thus undercutting their position by adopting the “gender is a social construct” argument yourself. Problem solved.

[Anonymous No.15065242]

>>15065199
No one's trying to lynch them, people are just sick of pretending it's normal and being unable to avoid it without into the wilderness.
No one would want to walk their young kids through the Folsom BDSM parade to get to school, why should it be different for other fetishes?
You can come at it with all sorts of "heteronormativity" buzzing- it boils down to the fact that no one wants to see that shit. Sorry.

[Anonymous No.15065253]

>>15065242
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender

[Anonymous No.15065269]

>>15065216
I have zero interest in debate clubbing with them because I've realized that they overwhelmingly use this "gotcha" discourse to gain some sort of pleasure, and that anyone smart enough to follow basic rules of logic and argument wouldn't be spending time participating in "gotcha" discourse in the first place.
Here I'm just complaining about them because they're annoying freaks. There's literally nothing anyone can do but ignore them.

[Anonymous No.15065273]

These are all neologisms created by giant corporations pretending to be grassroots
Only people with crippled danger response can't see that

[Anonymous No.15065290]

Because you're only human.

They are annoying people, and when you're confronted with annoying people you want to switch off - no matter how right they are.

They are also, almost entirely, not right. Some of their criticisms make some sense within the liberal democratic mainstream, but very few. So even if you do decide to listen, chances are you'll feel the effort is wasted - discouraging you even further in the future.

And their arguments, even the ones that are correct, are inherently distasteful to right-thinking righteous men like us. Our personalities are different to theirs, so we don't value the same things they do in the same way. We are forced by our reason and our commitment to intellectual integrity to acknowledge the correctness of their rare few critiques that aren't baseless, but even having done so it's hard to be enthusiastic about beliefs you only barely tolerate and which run contrary to your every instinct. That's not hurr durr macho men are the best - they ARE right (when they're right), and the fault is with us for not internalising their correctness. But you're only human.

It's a trifecta. They're annoying people, with bad arguments, that don't feel good to believe in. But right IS right, and we must do the right as we see the right. Anything less is the moral cowardice.

[Anonymous No.15065289]

>>15065253
>Wikipedia
Lmao

[Anonymous No.15065308]

>>15065273
>These are all neologisms created by giant corporations pretending to be grassroots
It is so utterly depressing. There are very real problems in our society, in our way of life, in the distribution of wealth, in power structures. Instead of tackling real problems, fashionable bourgeoisie instead fancy themselves rebels because they pick up some shit like OP, killing all real movements, killing actual change and further setting existing power structures into stone. I'm fucking sick of this shit.

[Anonymous No.15065318]

>>15065289
>445 citations
neck yourself retard

[Anonymous No.15065326]

>>15065269
But it’s so satisfying anon, I’ve done that exact tactic on a few women who’ve abused the “toxic masculinity” definition and it’s great watching them squirm. They literally end up prostrating themselves on the altar they wanted to watch you die on.

[Anonymous No.15065327]

>>15065253
>trans woman of color
>trans woman of color
>trans woman of color
Any murder is reprehensible but wouldn't Occam's razor that "certain demographics" are fucking savages moreso than that trans people are being targeted?

[Anonymous No.15065347]

>>15065327
No, it wouldn't. Also not a complete question, you typed it out so fervently you forgot to finish it. Neck yourself.

[Anonymous No.15065355]

>>15061226
>Very close to toxic masculinity, but the center piece here that gives it truth is that the majority of white people - like the majority of all people - are mediocre at best and have fuck all to brag about besides being a normal person trying to live a normal life.
this has nothing to do with the concept of "fragility." If anything, you're saying so-called "whites" have a superiority complex which is' justified solely on their heritage. Where does "fragility" come into play?

[Anonymous No.15065364]

>>15065347
>NOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE A TYPO MUH HECKIN GRAMMARINO
Boo hoo nigga

[Anonymous No.15065384]

>>15065364
It's not a typo if it's not a complete thought. Also lol no argument when refuted with evidence.

[Anonymous No.15065388]

>>15065355
Not him but I think it refers to a form of suppressed imposter syndrome, or the idea that you have only achieved success because of your position of privilege and not through merit or hard graft. Pointing this out makes white people uncomfortable, ergo, fragile. Not saying I agree with it, but there is a kind of logic to it.

[Anonymous No.15065395]

>>15065253
I'm not going to murder a transgender person, but I'm also not going to pretend my private disgust is somehow responsible for people who do.
Why should normal people ever have a "duty" to support certain groups they don't want to?

[Anonymous No.15065415]

fuck this masturbatory pointless discussion, it's a fake sjw terms thread now
coin em, others try to give an explanation. i'll start
> cock metaphysics
> lolisplaining
> sneediotry
> the n word theory