/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15034675]

What went wrong? Why couldn't they get Bernie to win?

[Anonymous No.15034763]

>>15034675
Behold the revolution

[Anonymous No.15034818]

>>15034675
in america, trust in credentialed experts, media and 'science' has long been an important part of left liberal identity, tendencies which only became exacerbated after 2016 and Trump's election. Even the leftist penchant for 'political correctness' reflects this reliance on authority, and a distrust in bottom up organization. actual economic leftists have to play on enemy terrain, because they have actual principles, vs. the well oiled establishment mobilization machine whose only end is mobilisation as an end in itself. Maybe the lesson is that technology, culture, psychology, even religion cannot be separated from economics and politics. Reading christopher lasch, you may get an idea of how the impulses that fed the populist right might have been channeled in a constructive fashion, also william morris, carlyle and the utopian socialists, 60s 70s technoutopianism the only way out involves a more artful life, we must adapt through constancy and change and understand struggle may take new forms

[Anonymous No.15034831]

>>15034675
How can they lead a revolution if they have to dilate twice a day?

[Anonymous No.15034841]

>>15034675
Nick Mullen used his alt-right connections to create COVID-19, dooming the campaign.

[Anonymous No.15034850]

>>15034675
Because the Revolution was being powered by people too afraid of microtriggering each other to be effective

[Anonymous No.15034873]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH BEHOLD THE REVOLUTIONARY SPIRIT OF THE LEFT AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Anonymous No.15034895]

>>15034763
I tend to get along best with autistic spectrum type weirdoes(at least the ones who try to be self aware, and chart a course apart from the media, identity politics and other forms of social control). some transgenders do fit that category

[Anonymous No.15034899]

>>15034873
>chapo2
>not chillin in quarantine during quarantine

What a faggot

[Anonymous No.15034907]

>>15034818
I knew right away this was a Laschpost. Never give up anon

[Anonymous No.15034926]

>>15034895
everyone should strive to overcome ressentment and achieve reconciliation with others. I've had good friends who are trans

[Anonymous No.15035066]

Do they still go around calling everyone "chuds" even though nobody knows what the hell it means?

[Anonymous No.15035093]

>>15034899
Shut up tranny go back to where you came from

[Anonymous No.15035103]

>>15035066
It means a jingoistic, conservative male.

[Anonymous No.15035129]

>>15035093
lmao, been here since 05 brother. The eternal summer is real.

[Anonymous No.15035213]

>>15034675
Because if left populism is social progressivism/internationalism paired with an illiberal-left economic platform then it will never appeal to the people they're trying to.

Why do you think right populists, nationalists and post-liberals have been having a much better electoral record in Europe and the US than their left-populist and left illiberal counterparts? The only way you're going to get a left-illiberal economic platform is to pair it with social conservatism and a degree of nationalism. The Danish social democratic party moved away from some of their center-left neoliberal policies they adopted in the 90s and adopted anti-immigration and socially conservative policies and it worked.

Most center-left parties and defineitly most leftist parties aren't willing to do that (just look at what happened to Labour) so of course they're losing to the establishment left and then the establishment loses to right-populists and illiberals.

[Anonymous No.15035219]

>>15034818
Based Lasch poster understands everything. Lasch predicted all of this 40-50 years ago

[Anonymous No.15035223]

>>15034873
>chapo poster
>self identifies as “the biggest bitch”

Poetry

[Anonymous No.15035234]

>>15034895
Most trannies are autistic types, because the transgender community specifically preys on vulnerable socially isolated young men.

>>15034926
MTF Transgenderism is a ludicrous assault on womanhood.

[Anonymous No.15035250]

>>15035103
It sounds too close to chad to be an insult, and it’s kind of self defeating because it gives the impression that so many regular insults were triggering and black listed you had to make up your own word so no one got offended which says more about you desu

[Anonymous No.15035259]

>>15035250
>It sounds too close to chad to be an insult
kek

[Anonymous No.15035382]

Ultimately, it is an unwillingness to accept that a socialist society will have to be more authoritarian by default. As Jonathan Haidt points out, one cannot rely on people to cooperate through instinct. It might be the heritage from Darwinism, but most people are ultimately quite selfish and can only cooperate when the benefits are immediate and obvious to them. It is only when punishment is inflicted does cooperation increase.

If you want healthcare for all, you must accept the responsibility of your own health, not only to benefit yourself as an individual, but to reduce the burden on society.

If you want free education, you must accept that not all knowledge is equal, and that while spiritually fulfilling some pursuits are, we live in a physical world that require the study of science and technology to successfully take advantage of it.

Yet most left wing movements, being post-modern and quite nihilistic, tried to abuse the atomized individualism for their own freedom, and yet demand society pays for the consequences of their own choices.
They are willing to accept the morality that those with the broadest shoulders must bear the greatest burden, but then unwilling to accept the logical follow up that it is a moral imperative to broaden ones own shoulders.

[Anonymous No.15035412]

>>15035382
I think you are putting too much thought into it. They failed because corporate media manufactured consent of Biden before Super Tuesday and used rhetoric of the red scare to get boomers to go vote for sleepy joe. Your analysis presupposes fundamental flaws within a caricature of leftist thought, as if it was one large conglomerate of “SJWs” and “commie scum” who share the same set of beliefs and failed because of them. It takes no consideration into the preset power structures at play of the specific time frame of the question initially posited. You simply took this as a platform to gloat about your opinions on human nature and didn’t answer the question in a satisfactory sense.

[Anonymous No.15035428]

>>15035412
Lmao the media painted joe as an incompetent, senile old man. I saw nothing but praise for Bernie, the fact is that bernie supporters didnt bother to vote. You're living in a fantasy world

[Anonymous No.15035439]

>>15035428
Youth vote was up, it’s just boomers went out to vote even harder than normal. Oh well. You’re probably right that I’m coping.

[Anonymous No.15035498]

The Democratic Party coalition is inherently weak and contradictory; no party whose major voting bases are blacks, upper middle-class professionals and those who are generally socially liberal is going to produce a coherent election message, let alone candidate. The closest thing they had to a synthesis was Obama, who was surface over substance in every sense of the phrase and directly bequeathed everyone Trump.

The tl;dr of why Bernie didn't win the Democratic primary is because black voters didn't want him, and black voters are generally older, more conservative, and vote in greater numbers than younger voters. When Bernie voters pointed that out, there was a media shitstorm of people saying that they're racist for not understanding why a sixty-something black person would vote for Biden, and viewing them as some mythical voting block that righteously chooses the best outcome (instead of as a voting block to be won over like any other).

>>15034818
this is also good

[Anonymous No.15035517]

>>15035382
right wingers have also become postmodern and nihilistic surrendering communitarian values for the market and the senseless pursuit of economic growth, see Lasch and Daniel Bell for example

[Anonymous No.15035524]

>>15035412
They failed because corporate media manufactured consent of Biden before Super Tuesday and used rhetoric of the red scare to get boomers to go vote for sleepy joe

Chapofags live in a fever-dream where they have discovered the truth and anyone who disagrees with them in the victim of manufactured consent. Venezuela? It's great. Bolivia? Totally a coup for lithium. Biden is preferred by black boomers? It's because they've got those MSM brain worms unlike Chapo's clearsighted geniuses.

Bernie is popular with young whites and young hispanics, but those groups don't vote and the black boomers don't like him. Black boomers have never liked him and they drive the democratic primary. I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.

[Anonymous No.15035528]

Are you guys worried about the growing number of Pat Buchanan type conservatives who are moving left on economics?

[Anonymous No.15035530]

>>15034675
They've created a culture of approval from authority figures. The modern left has an obsession with academia because of their own lack of drive and zero creative thought. These are the same people who think being an "avid reader" means reading 30 young adult/children's books and some flavor of the year non-fiction reinforcing their own opinion. You will find right-wing people consuming leftist literature and thought but nothing of the sort from the other side- they are violently against any kind of open-mindedness to the point where leftists are more likely to completely sever any kind of conversation if you say things that interrupt or confront their narratives.

Their lack of creativity and resourcefulness has made them completely incompetent in the working world, leading them to believe industry and capitalism are the root cause of all evil (because if it was virtuous surely they would succeed.) Academia in general is full of obedient sycophants who can't think for themselves or understand big picture situations, instead focusing on inconsequential minutia that they've interpreted to be important because it has interesting aspects.

These people are violently against things like mathematics and STEM because they prefer cookie-cutter, thoughtless agreement with teacher over focused thought and deduction, thinking that if they write a double spaced, twelve point, four page essay with cited sources from NYT there's no way they could be wrong.They didn't win because no one takes them seriously and their lack of life experience puts them directly at odds with the working man and boomers. The "working man" should be on their side but isn't- because working people succeed when chapos think they should fail.

In short, it's because they're losers with good grades who think succeeding in a sociology course is the same as succeeding in real life.

[Anonymous No.15035531]

>>15035439
i agree, something needs to be done about the boomers.

[Anonymous No.15035554]

>>15035382
capitalism and technology undermine conservative values as much as liberalism does. In fact one could argue the later is to agreat extent a product of the former. I would rather prefer localism, communitarianism and a culture of living within one's means to our current consumerist hyperglobalised clusterfuck. Capitalism itself undermines the protestant work ethic as the imperative switches over from producing workers to producing consumers. Our elites, CEOs, billionaires, technocrats media and political establishment have shown themselves to be equally blinkered and narcissistic unable to look beyond liberalism

[Anonymous No.15035563]

>>15035234
>MTF is an assault on womanhood
Weird isn’t it? TERFs have been kicked out of LGBT conferences for their viewpoints. I’ve even seen MTFs arguing with women about what it means to be a woman. What a clown world.

[Anonymous No.15035569]

>>15035439
I accept that my answer was not exactly specific to the present moment, but I believe that this is ultimately the fundamental flaw of the movement.
Lets take for example the “red scare” comment and how it has impacted boomers. One has to acknowledge that America did not come off scar free from the cold war. The grave psychological trauma that was instilled in the American population resulted in economic tools being intertwined with identity.
For example, I believe that prosperity gospel is ultimately a result from the cold war. America is Christian > America is capitalism > capitalism is Christian. Cold war propaganda was so intensive that capitalism is spiritually intertwined with American identity.
In my opinion, for a socialism movement to succeed, you must wait for the boomers to die, as their whole sense of self is welded to individualism and capitalism. A socialist system would ask for each person to accept their responsibility to their wider community, which I believe most Americas are incapable of. This is why, in my post above, one experience the contradictory movement of individual pursuit of happiness, while demanding some government form of support. They don’t want to accept that in a socialist system, everyone is government and everyone has responsibility to each other.

[Anonymous No.15035573]

>>15035531
I know just the thing

[Anonymous No.15035575]

>>15035524
because if obama hadn't called the rat and klob the weekend before super tuesday and offered them cabinet positions in exchange for dropping out, then he would have been ahead of the pack, but instead the amalgam that is biden's base is now a bunch of establishment dems who want nothing but civility back into the discourse. They deserve another 4 years of trump. I don't even give a shit anymore.

[Anonymous No.15035576]

>>15034926
>resentment
No one dislikes trannies because they're jealous or resentful they dislike them because they have an inordinate amount of sway in politics despite being completely insane

[Anonymous No.15035582]

>>15035573
*coofs*

[Anonymous No.15035590]

>>15035528
Some people on the left are preemptively shitting their pants over Josh Hawley or Tom Cotton moving to the left on economics while still building the wall, but I think it's still too premature. The Republican Party is still out-and-out ran by big business interests, and they're not going to stop off-shoring unless there's a fundamental paradigm shift in both parties to draft legislation that makes Trump's sanctions look like a walk in the park. I think Trump did mainstream skepticism of the neoliberal consensus, but he doesn't care/have the attention span beyond slapping China on the wrist

[Anonymous No.15035591]

>>15035382
Interesting take my man. Anything you’d suggest reading about it?

[Anonymous No.15035601]

>>15035569
No one wants to be a servant to the state, people like you prove how correct McCarthy's "propaganda" really was

[Anonymous No.15035607]

>>15035575
>I'm mad that an experienced politician played politics to coalesce his base
>We were supposed to be the revolution
>Now Bernie is losing and AOC is kissing Pelosi's ring

[Anonymous No.15035612]

>>15035554
Based

[Anonymous No.15035620]

>>15035573
>*coof coof*

[Anonymous No.15035645]

>>15035601
What I am pointing to that it is necessary for any society not to be wedded to any particular tool or method, and just focus on the results of the society one wishes to see. Just as in a capitalist market, one must acknowledge that a monopoly ultimately harms the market and the consumers, it is also necessary to realise that a political monopoly is just as dangerous. To mix you national identity with any economic machination results in that market being able to abuse your unwillingness to part with it. If your say to neoliberalism that you will never part from it, it can treat you as badly as it wants.

[Anonymous No.15035678]

Why won't people accept that economic liberalism simply fits the US better?
The country is too big and diverse to have the solidarity needed for "socialism" to work.
Maybe in some more desperate circumstances, if poverty hits enough people, it could change. But right now most people in the US live somewhat comfy lives (at least that's how they themselves see it--we could certainly argue they're wrong).

[Anonymous No.15035693]

>>15035678
This. The only people who like socialism are young POCs who went to college because of affirmative action.

[Anonymous No.15035707]

>>15034675
Why do the cumtown guys hang out with these faggots?

[Anonymous No.15035726]

>>15034675
>Chapo brap house
>Cumtown
I hate these cringelords more than jews.

[Anonymous No.15035770]

>>15034873
The update is gold

[Anonymous No.15035773]

>>15035678
>that’s how they themselves see it
It’s part of the American mindset of only being temporarily dispossessed but not seeing oneself as poor. Or something. I can’t remember the quote.

[Anonymous No.15035787]

>>15034675
they're just nihilist liberals LARPing as socialists so most americans just gravitated to the other liberal that was running

[Anonymous No.15035812]

It's pretty interesting how their online persona differs so much from them IRL. Like their posts are usually filled with calls to unbridled violence against anyone who disagrees with them, yet IRL they are really meek and cowardly. This in contrast with the online far right, where the violent calls are usually coated behind a couple of layers of irony, and you get the occasional psychopath who will actually commit a bloodbath.

Still, their threats feel completely empty. No matter how many times i hear "bash the fash" or "liberals get the wall too", i can never imagine any of those people doing anything that's more violent than toppling a trash can.

[Anonymous No.15035822]

>>15035259
Is literally at just one letter of difference
IMO, Chud is a awful insult becuase it is...literally a acronym of Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller.

Leftists took a word for ugly that originated from a horrot movie.

Is just so pathetic

[Anonymous No.15035853]

>>15035773
The real median income in the US has been rising. This is bad news for revolutionary socialists.

[Anonymous No.15035880]

>>15035812

While it is fun to point to the physical ineptitude of most socialist, it is necessary to acknowledge that their system may be quickly overtaken and used by a far more pragmatic individual. Lenin and Trotsky despised Stalin for his coarseness and unsophisticated politics, yet with his iron-fisted and merciless diligence he was able to use the tools that the intellectuals had created to enact the Great Terror. The university professors may be fun to laugh at, however one must be cautious that they may leave behind a formidable system of tyranny in the right hands.

[Anonymous No.15035886]

>>15035530
Mmm
There is more of this type of Take Downs of the "Leftist mind"? I have seen a lot of take downs of "Right wing minds" but not much of the opossite

[Anonymous No.15035914]

>>15035812
I'm a leftist, but "be gay, do crimes" makes me cringe. Like, you get butthurt over misgendering and you want to "do crimes?" Fuckin' get over yourselves.

[Anonymous No.15035924]

>>15035382
I think you are very wrong on these traces that you do of "human nature" and how humans behave and how current economic strutures influence human behaviours and their interests.
>Ultimately, it is an unwillingness to accept that a socialist society will have to be more authoritarian by default.
Not really, depending vastly on what you think sociallism is, having democracy in your workplace and a goverment that tries to get closer to direct democracy and a use of representatives that can be directly recalled at any time and have a set max wage and other implementations that doesnt promote opportunism and elitism, like the paris commune did, you'd have a even less authoritarian goverment than you have now and one that actually cares about you and not the interest of the elites first.

>If you want healthcare for all, you must accept the responsibility of your own health, not only to benefit yourself as an individual, but to reduce the burden on society.
Yes, that is right and it already happens in every society and people do generally have a sense of responsibility over their health, tell me of one society that doesnt collapse if people dont take care of themselves and they all need to go to the hospital. As much as libtards try to convince you that you are more free from others and autonomous its simply not true and you still need to rely on them.

>If you want free education, you must accept that not all knowledge is equal, and that while spiritually fulfilling some pursuits are, we live in a physical world that require the study of science and technology to successfully take advantage of it.
Dont understand what point are you trying to make here. No one in the "left" thinks otherwise.


Now i am leftist and i do very much agree that the promoting of "market sociallism" aka the democratization of the workplace would benefit everyone expect the CEO elites. And what in my opinion makes the actual "left" as weak as it is specially for types like chapo is of the whole jargon that they bring and on how they expose their political views and how they fail to prioritise what they should put foward more and instead of convincing people how much better it would be to make some changes in our economic structures they put foward this hippie young adult scene and instead talk about dumb shit like non-monogamous or open relationships, drug cultures, their whole sex positivity or the standards people have towards future partners.

>>15035853
Household income alone doesnt mean you will be having higher quality of life.

[Anonymous No.15035932]

>>15035707
they're all weird twitter people who've been tweeting together for like ten years by now

[Anonymous No.15035936]

>>15035822
haha yeah it's almost as bad as people who call themselves redpilled

[Anonymous No.15035968]

>>15035707
Amber lived with Nick for awhile and Will was friends with Nick and Adam before Chapo. Like >>15035932 said Chapo and Cum Town were birthed from Twitter, and they are literally incapable of quitting it, outside of Nick who was banned lol

[Anonymous No.15035970]

>>15035936
Asimov (I think?) criticized 1984 by said that newspeak was stupid because Totalitarians prefered to be POINTLESSY COMPLEX instead of "So simple you can't think".

The Chud insult is...like a personification of that. Literally making a acronym a insult.

>>15035880
Fascinating.

[Anonymous No.15035976]

>>15035968
The tragedy when the Cumtown/Chapo war begins will be impressive...I need to write a book about that

[Anonymous No.15035979]

>>15035880
Im more talking about the modern left. If you compare the current far left to what it used to be, you'll see that there are almost no workers left, and that the focal point has shifted entirely to other "oppressed" groups. What i was shocked to find on online far left groups was that almost half of discourse seemed to be focused on trannies, which is something that is of no concern to the vast majority of people.
The chance that someone like Stalin could rise up nowadays is very small, because a figure like Stalin would be completely disgusted by the modern left, and see far more potential in the modern far right, while the two used to be just coin flips of the same mass of violent and disenfranchised people.

[Anonymous No.15035997]

>>15035924
>Household income alone doesnt mean you will be having higher quality of life.
Of course. But economic struggle is the main argument of the "socialists" in the US (the rest is mostly retarded SJW nonsense). And that's why they fail.

If you want to talk about "higher quality of life" you need to transcend the bugman talking points and open your mind to new ideas.

[Anonymous No.15036031]

>>15035979
I think that is possible some sociopathic trans person could rise to power in a few decades

>>15035997
Living standards aren't also improving?

[Anonymous No.15036041]

>>15036031
it will be brianna wu

[Anonymous No.15036044]

>>15035924
What is a human right? It is ultimately the obligation of another human being. If you have a right to healthcare, it is necessary that someone else is educated in medicine and then provided the resources to treat you. If you have a right to housing, someone must be taught in civil engineering, then given the materials to build you a house.
Consequentially, the more rights that you demand of any individual, the more tasks that a society is obligated to fulfil.
If you demand free healthcare, then society must encourage (or force) a certain amount of people to fulfil this profession. In a capitalist society, it is done through wages. Maybe in a socialist society you will instil in a people a certain cultural obligation (which is very possible).
Yet to fulfil the rights of any person, it may be necessary to restrict the choices on the rest of society, unless you are at a point of material excess.
You say that people accept a responsibility over their own health, yet 39.8% of Americans are obese, and another 31.8% overweight. Is this a society accepting its responsibility to a health service? Even in my country, the Uk, 28% of adults are obese. Is this recognising their responsibility to the NHS?
The Uk has had to implement rules such as moving obese people down the priority list for operations, to encourage people to lose weight.
Sugar taxes, alcohol taxes, fast food taxes, ultimately these are tools to coerce peoples decisions. You might not consider it authoritarian, but the more socialist system requires all citizens to fulfil its obligations.

[Anonymous No.15036058]

People overestimate the hype around Bernie and Chapo... a lot of people involved in this are either children or manchildren. People like this don't have what it takes for a serious movement.

[Anonymous No.15036072]

>>15035997
Economic struggle in marx and other socialist thinkers means way more than house incomes friendo.
And they are very right on how economic struggles influence people's interests and society. I mean there is no better way to understand what they are talking about unless you read Kapital.

>>15036031
>Living standards aren't also improving?
Also depends on how you see it as improving. You could argue that we have better cars, faster internet speeds or healthcare technology is better, but right now you have more people living paycheck to paycheck than ever before. House rents prices and how much shit you could do in the 50s-70s isnt compared to today.

[Anonymous No.15036133]

>>15036072
I think that having better internet is...better

[Anonymous No.15036142]

>>15035812
>twitter
Yeah, for all their chatter, they are still effete decadents making 10 grand a month from patreon.

[Anonymous No.15036146]

>>15036058
i doubt that guy has ever been harassed bya police officer or seen anyone be harassed by a police officer in person

[Anonymous No.15036168]

>>15036072
>>15036072
>A-A-Ron

[Anonymous No.15036185]

>>15035979
I believe you underestimate how quickly a system can change. You want to believe that a more violent individual would be repelled by the left’s ethos, yet they may see it as a great opportunity to be abused. It is easy to see their weaknesses and how easily they are “triggered” so you may dismiss them. But, as a student of a university, the logistical tools, distribution and access to educational papers cannot be stressed enough,. The university system is what is valuable. Its incestuous nature with most academic journals cannot be underestimated. Likewise, one must understand the students of today are the civil servants of tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.15036203]

>>15036058
I'd argue that Bernie is the real deal, as in, has fleshed-out legislation and ideas corresponding to a social-democratic agenda. Chapo are imperfect messengers at best and lazy provocateurs at worst. Most of them literally cannot refrain from petty Twitter fights that make them look like manchildren though they're all in their 30s

[Anonymous No.15036225]

>>15036185
>You want to believe that a more violent individual would be repelled by the left’s ethos, yet they may see it as a great opportunity to be abused.
What about someone who does believe on it becoming tyranical? Like, some Hardcore Black or Hispanic deciding shit like "Now that we have absolute power but fucking whites refuse to let us do whatever we want...what about white genocide but for real?"

[Anonymous No.15036232]

>>15036185
Everyone keeps ragging on purple haired trannies because it’s fun and easy but don’t forget antifa and other left wing radicals were in the streets physical assaulting people and BLM was shutting down cities and burning buildings.
Inb4
>lol look at his skinny biceps
Yeah but you get 30 basedboys around you see how well you can fight your way out and that’s how they operate

[Anonymous No.15036234]

Yeah, Bernie isn't my favorite politcian (I'm unironically Bidenist) but he really do work for his goals, something that I can't imagine chapoites doing

[Anonymous No.15036243]

>>15036234
but biden is a rapist

[Anonymous No.15036245]

>>15034873
scared to steal a hat how is this nig seizing the means of production

[Anonymous No.15036248]

>>15036234
I think rape is pretty based, but you gotta admit that Biden's brain is melting in front of our eyes

[Anonymous No.15036263]

>>15034873
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the posts in the Chapo2 reddit are shitposts.

[Anonymous No.15036267]

>>15036243
I want to see how it goes. The democrat internal conflict would be epic and more interesting that if Bernie won because Dems would just vote for Bernie out of party loyalty

[Anonymous No.15036272]

>>15036267
could be true, but if it gets out of hand then trump's just gonna win again

[Anonymous No.15036273]

>>15036272
I think Trump will die of Covid

[Anonymous No.15036295]

>>15034675
Leftism in the USA is just unwinnable. Most of the American left (by American standards) are soulless bureaucratic types obsessed with milestones, credentials, empiricism, etc. It was impossible to sell Bernie and his self-proclaimed revolution to people who think the system would be perfect as long as guns are banned and more black women are put in charge.

[Anonymous No.15036296]

>>15035886
I could go on if you want

[Anonymous No.15036297]

>>15036044
Dont really know what you are on about desu.
>If you demand free healthcare, then society must encourage (or force) a certain amount of people to fulfil this profession. In a capitalist society, it is done through wages. Maybe in a socialist society you will instil in a people a certain cultural obligation (which is very possible).
You wouldnt need to force, even in the shit that we already live today social prestige still plays a large role on jobs, there are tons of people who choose to be teachers, nurses and doctors while still being payed shit and having a exhausting job that is fundamental for society. Lets us not talk the amount of people who have aspirations for these jobs but cant because they dont have money for such education or the material needs met. And we do indeed have more than enough material goods to fulfill this.
>...Sugar taxes, alcohol taxes, fast food taxes, ultimately these are tools to coerce peoples decisions. You might not consider it authoritarian, but the more socialist system requires all citizens to fulfil its obligations.
No one is saying that in some socialist society you wouldnt need to have obligations or provide the community something in exchange. Now of couse if we are talking about a society that isnt capitalist as doesnt run on consumerism and capital accumulation you wouldnt have these problems and people would still be encouraged and taught to become more responsible over their health.
You can argue all you want that you are in a sense restricting some level of freedom to have all this working but you also have to see that not restricting would even imply lesser freedom aswell, since 1 super rich guy could come and buy all the food or medical supplies for himself and fuck over everybody else.
Doesnt take much to look at pseudo socialist cities such as Marinaleda in spain, where everyone is encouraged to partake in politics every week, discuss what they need and have communal farmlands where every one can take what they want as long as they retribute in some form.

[Anonymous No.15036299]

>>15035530
based beyond belief

[Anonymous No.15036327]

>>15036232
Unfortunately once again, I believe you are not comprehending the dire situation. When you talk about antifa and alike, you believe that politics will be resolved in a street fight. But what if it instead takes a far more esoteric path, to be implemented by a recluse number of parliamentary employees, and sanctified by scientific journals. “ HOW can you oppose the scientific consensus?” You believe that politcal change will be achieved through the baseball bat or the gunshot, but it can also be achieved through the consensus of bureaucrats backed up by the ratification of experts.

[Anonymous No.15036341]

>>15036296
Yes please senpai

[Anonymous No.15036374]

>>15035530
Like how much time did you spend writting all this empty bullshit that is nothing but straw man arguments?

[Anonymous No.15036376]

>>15036295
>liberals are leftists
Must be difficult understanding things so well

[Anonymous No.15036432]

>>15036376
>knowing what he meant but getting mad at the words
Must be difficult having autism

[Anonymous No.15036484]

>>15036297
You are right in the sense that capitalism cannot be free, as those with the most capital have excess bargaining power. If I cannot afford the housing around me, nor the healthcare around me, am I free? If a police officer restricts me from doing something as a I cannot purchase it, compared to an authoritarian state outright baring the thing I wish to purchase, is there a difference? Ultimately, I must ask whether there is more freedom in a state providing me for these things, compared to a competitive capitalist system where I compete with other for these things. The state will demand that I sacrifice many other enjoyments for the things that I request, whereas the capitalist system will require me to outcompete (i.e crush others) where I could have it all. The capitalist system will say that through my hyper-competitivity I will have priced excess goods, to be distributed to other, whereas the socialist state will say, while I cannot produce excess, all basic needs shall be filled,.

[Anonymous No.15036543]

>>15035530
This kind of makes sense until you realize that only leftists create the great works of art of any given medium

[Anonymous No.15036571]

>>15036543
Not even true in the medium this board's for.

[Anonymous No.15036576]

>>15036543
Wagner, spengler, norm Macdonald
>>15035812
The complete impotence of the leftist "male" keeps me from worrying too much

[Anonymous No.15036638]

>>15036543
Like who? You think Michaelangelo was a leftist? Elliot? Nietzsche? Fucking Marx wasn’t a leftist in the sense we’re using it, retard.

[Anonymous No.15036640]

>>15035886
>Is the other half of the political spectrum articulated somewhere?
chappos really are shallowly read

[Anonymous No.15036655]

>>15035970
pretty sure they glommed onto chud because you need a short symmetric comeback when people call you a cuck all day online

[Anonymous No.15036669]

>>15036576
>>15036638
>Wagner
>Spengler
>A fucking comedian
>Michelangelo
>Elliot
>Nietzsche
boomer shit, yawn

[Anonymous No.15036682]

Bernie's only real shot was in 2016. Mutual hatred of Clinton pooled a bunch of unlikely allies together within a very diverse party. With Clinton out of the way, Bernie's base was now heavily split. The socially conservative working class supporters went to Biden, some woke self-proclaimed socialists defected to Warren because "she's a woman and has PLANS!", the intersectional capitalists wanted Kamala but that failed so they settled for Pete. So Bernie only really had white yuppies on his side, and all it took was a few rural boomer dominated states to give Joe a ton of momentum, cementing him as the "electable compromise to stop Trump".
Bernie foolishly tried to make friends with the woke blue checkmark crowd, but it was unwinnable. Bernie is cancelled because of "Bernie bros". They were never going to like him, and in his attempts to court them, he lost moderate votes. He also tried to adopt trendy DNC platforms like national gun registries, de facto AWB, and decriminalized border crossings - which of course scared away the gun owning union workers (funnily, Bernie's gun policy would probably end up better than Biden's now that Beto is confirmed to be his gun control advisor).
And, of course, the party he was a part of simply did not WANT him to win. Bernie isn't a Democrat, his victory would be an insurrection that would irreversibly change a platform they are invested in. He had no other choice because it's mathematically impossible for a third party to be viable in a national election under a FPTP system, but the infrastructure was against him. The "left wing" of the Democrats consists of him, #TheSquad, Gravel, and a couple irrelevant regional no-names, so it was basically him versus the entire party that he had no real sway in.
Finally. modern Bernie is kind of a wimp, probably out of some delusional belief that he can "fix" the party if he kisses up to it enough. He refused to go on the aggressive against Biden when he had the upper hand in terms of policy during a pandemic; instead, he called Joe his friend and said that he could beat Trump. Not the most inspiring thing to hear.

[Anonymous No.15036686]

>>15036669
Smugly feminine what a surprise

[Anonymous No.15036698]

All americans are mentally damaged.
Proof? This thread.

[Anonymous No.15036699]

>>15036638
No no anon, he meant only in the recent past when leftists were institutional gatekeepers in media.

[Anonymous No.15036749]

>>15036543
Kind of delusional desu. Right wing works frequently get skipped over nowadays as almost all forms of global entertainment push lefty values at an attempt to appeal to the largest possible demographic.

>>15036374
Wow what a response, truly I am refuted.

>>15036341
Ironically, lefties hate capitalism but would not exist without it. Their entire policy is based around identities and marketing. The current level of racial cohesion is impossible without capitalism and trade- as is the idea behind global regulatory bodies: the EU exists primarily to facilitate trade.

The biggest issue, of course, is Lisa Simpson. Every leftist secretly believes that they are the saxophone playing cartoon character, the voice of reason and the hero that's going to save society.

My favorite thing about this is that if society changed to reflect their values, they would collectively shit their pants in disdain because they lived their whole life thinking they were rebellious and thoughtful, when in reality they simply voted for what they thought would benefit themselves because they spent their life avoiding actual work and want to force everyone else to subsidize their life of reading the same three opinion articles in some library.

[Anonymous No.15036803]

>>15036484
Dont really think the state would be that authoritarian as you seem to put it, and at best people would probably simply not allow you to go full retard and decide to get all the toilet paper in the market. The socialist states or communes that marx that were praised the most are again those who have democracy at the work place and the people implement ways to prevent elitism with as much participation from the people.

>Ultimately, I must ask whether there is more freedom in a state providing me for these things, compared to a competitive capitalist system where I compete with other for these things. The state will demand that I sacrifice many other enjoyments for the things that I request, whereas the capitalist system will require me to outcompete (i.e crush others) where I could have it all.
Both of them will require you to sacrifice enjoyments you still need to compete in order to survive. I could argue to you that the praxis capitalism puts on "competition" on people is a lie as you more often than not see big companies creating monopolies on their fields and not even allowing competition to take place. Or how even competition can be bad in some science fields, as you will have 4 labs putting their workers to the maximum on shit shifts and wages when they could reach their goals faster and easier if they opted to cooporate with eachother, not even going to mention the immense problems patents cause and how little do they actually protect the inventors.

[Anonymous No.15036850]

>>15036682
To be fair, Bernie's 2016 platform was basically a house of cards; the institutional critiques and broad prescriptions were good, but it was an inherently small-time operation that seemed to be run out of necessity (and that is a good thing, at least he stepped up) than a true desire to beat Hillary. He did push her platform left in some ways, so had she won it would have been interesting to see what role he could have played behind the scenes.

2020 had a few genuinely hopeful moment for Sanders, but his path to the nomination (hoping Pete, Biden, Warren, et al. stay in til the end, thus splitting the vote and ensuring he would take a plurality of delegates?) was a longshot from the start, and the coalescing of the DNC powerbrokers around Biden right before South Carolina showed that, in reality, a lot of Bernie's support was a paper tiger. The thing is, I don't know how you overcome that; young people don't vote, and black people and older voters wanted Biden. You can't build a coalition of voters from that when people are terrified of Trump and aching to return to the "normalcy" of the Obama years

[Anonymous No.15036855]

>>15036749
>Wow what a response, truly I am refuted.
What is there to refute on a text that is only empty statements, cliché generalizations and strawman arguments? Literally go read kapital and stop being a retarded chimp online.

[Anonymous No.15036874]

>>15036850
It wasn't black people in general that doomed Bernie. Young black people voted for Bernie, it just turns out that black boomer churchgoers who adore Clyburn also happen to love voting.

[Anonymous No.15036877]

>>15035382
what a load of crock; you americans really should be forbidden from using the term 'leftist'. communism is just a crackpot theory of economy that does not work; what does in fact work is social democracy, something that you never had, and will never have in america. all this mumbo jumbo about broad shoulders and whatnot is just bootlicking; not to mention some idiocy about nihilism - there is nothing and there was not ever anything nihilistic about commies, they were practical people ...

nevermind. what is interesting though that you're trying and failing to hide your adherence to strongarm totalitarianism as much as chapos do. what does 'accepting the responsibility of your own health mean'? i know as everyone here with half a brain knows that its some meathead making a veiled threat about 'consequences'. guess what you fucking retard, healthcare is a human right. even for fat uncaring fucks. it's not their fault that people like you can't mind their own business, go jerk off in the corner and once it starts bleeding, go see a doctor.

you also need to divorce the concept of free education from the concept of free marketplace and stop worrying about what other people learn. if you read some introduction to philosophy at some point you'd know that post-modernism and nihilism have nothing to do with leftism per se. and for fucks sake stop talking about socialism (policy) and then mixing it up with leftism (spectrum).

[Anonymous No.15036889]

>>15036803
I believe that you are only focusing on the top companies. The range of salaries for engineers can vary widely, where most mediocre engineering earn around £40000, but top range engineers at the most innovative companies earn £100,000-£200,000. This is clearly capitalist incentive, and if you want to believe these top range companies pay their employees shit, I don’t know what to tell you. You say that most companies could innovate faster if they cooperated with each other, but the ultimate difficulty for a socialist system is assigning competence. You wish to provide resources to the most competent company, yet within a socialist system, it becomes difficult to identify it. A capitalist system assigns a most competent company through profitability, and while accepting that the most profitable company may not produce the nominal best product, it produces the best product compared to overheads used.
Your system assumes an almost omnipotent ability to seek out the most competent staff and assign them to anyone project. I would assert that it takes a capitalist system to ascertain the best employees.

[Anonymous No.15036902]

>>15036855
> read kapital
Is that code for "I haven't read kapital but I'm sure there's something in there for this?" Go fuck yourself moron.

[Anonymous No.15036928]

>>15034675
Corbyn curse. Pandered too much to degenerates instead of workers.

[Anonymous No.15036944]

>>15036855
Ah, Kapital, the economics book that fails to model value as subjective when defining it in the first two pages, leading hundreds of years of faggots to think they're being exploited by their boss.

[Anonymous No.15036967]

>>15036877
You fall into the trap that most on the left do, which is divorcing all society from any basis of hierarchal natural being. You say healthcare is a human right, without acknowledging pharmaceuticals are in limited supply, ICUs are in limited supply. Sure, look at his pandemic and the triage wards, having to decide who lives and who dies. Socialism easily functions in a post-scarcity society, but we are not there yet, so how does one assign resources? You say that the health of others is none of my business, but if medical supplies are in limited supply (or to fully supply them would limit some other sector such as energy) how are we to distribute them?
You are correct is contending that post-modernism have nothing to do with leftism *per se* but the approach of let bygones be bygones seems to be an overwhelming approach of the left while asserting that some central function of society is responsible for everything. If this is such an issue to you I would advise that you take it up with your…”comrades”.

[Anonymous No.15036972]

Turns out the working class doesn't really like woke bullshit.

[Anonymous No.15036977]

>>15034675
Why do they worship fat child fucking Chapo the Trapo drug trafficking faggot?

[Anonymous No.15036978]

>>15036902
Literally mad online.
>>15036944
Which kind of value? What does that even have to do with how much your boss takes from your labour?
You still have a whole economic field on marxian economics that literally expand more on some of his toughts.
And also look up the defenition of exploitation and reread those 2 pages again.

[Anonymous No.15036992]

>>15036978
Too stupid to make an economic idea, too much of a nigger to confess it so wants to rob his "boss" for being smarter. Kek

[Anonymous No.15036998]

>>15036978
> whole economic field on Marxian economics
This field only exists if you're not an economist. Communism doesn't work for one reason: moral hazard. Try reading an actual Economics book.

[Anonymous No.15037018]

>>15036978
Exploitation theory is exactly what I'm talking about you cretin, Marx didn't understand that value was SUBJECTIVE, he thought it was based on LABOR. For this reason he did not understand time preference and mistakenly referred to a fair trade as exploitation. You brainlets have repeated it ever since no matter how many times you are corrected. Every economic paradigm around you has moved on, only you all continue to bitterly cling to this one autist's esoteric theory, which you have never read outside of.

[Anonymous No.15037019]

>>15036998
Communism economic model is simple.
Buy chief production product (usually agriculture because it's easiest to control and enforce state collectivization) at below market value.
Re distribute back to people.
Sell state run consumer good imports at BEYOND market value.
???
Collapse!

[Anonymous No.15037031]

>>15036889
I was more refering to scientists and not engineers in this aspect.
>but the ultimate difficulty for a socialist system is assigning competence
It would be just as difficult as in a capitalist system. And we already talked on how much things like social prestige and influence can aspire people to these fields. People who are passionate about it and not merely doing it for the money.
>A capitalist system assigns a most competent company through profitability, and while accepting that the most profitable company may not produce the nominal best product, it produces the best product compared to overheads used.
But you outright point out the problem here. Being the most profitable doesnt mean its the best, and you have many other factors that involve in this such as the marketing, politics or the ability to pump out said product.

[Anonymous No.15037040]

>>15037031
Marxism is not a meritocracy itd about who conforms thr most of thr doctrine thus why corruption was so heavy and blatant in communist states

[Anonymous No.15037048]

>>15037031
The difference between something that is profitable and something that isn't profitable is long term viability. Communist states always collapse in long term. Interesting? Relationship?

[Anonymous No.15037049]

>>15037018
Maybe it’s because he lived in a time of people harvesting crops by hand and having to turn big machines with big wrenches looney tunes style so “labor” was a physics thing.

That or he was a retarded loafer who lived off his family money and couch surfer at his friends and ate all their leftovers.

[Anonymous No.15037063]

>>15036992
Keep being mad online
>Your boss is smarter than you lol
Clearly doesnt understand how laws work and how CEOs make their investments.
>>15036998
Marxism isnt a moral system or critique.
>Try reading an actual Economics book.
There is plenty of people in economics that go into that field and many of them famous.
>>15037018
You still have to tell me how subjective it is and what kind of value. Argue all you want on how market or exchange value is subjective.

[Anonymous No.15037067]

Hello yes I have a question about socialism

>If socialism is a fundamentally materialist philosophy, but socialist countries routinely struggle to meet their citizens' material needs, why should I listen to anything they say?

[Anonymous No.15037083]

>>15037031

I must concede that the “best” product may not actually fulfil its design the best. For example I believe that “BOSE” is superior to any “Beats” headphone. Yet the celebrity use of Beats makes the a more desirable product as they make the consumer feel more fashionable. How would a socialist system discover such knowledge? Could a socialist system understand fashion? What makes something trending or desirable? Any yet who are we to decide what people want most? If they are willing to pay a certain price for it how do we say they are wrong? For example, you have your socialist system, and a citizen wants the headphones to glow in colours which would cost an addition $5 on production. How do you decide its worth it compared to… a painted school, or flowers in a neighbourhood park? How does one assign value? This citizen is clearly willing to pay more fore his special headphones, but how may other are? Does it compensate what else you could do with the money? Ultimately what I am pointing to it this peculiar assertion that a socialist system would have some omniscient knowledge that would enable them to make the best decisions, when we know from historical example, it was very difficult for socialist systems to assign luxury goods.

[Anonymous No.15037087]

>>15037067
Materialist as in they believe the worldly phenomena we perceive is real in itself. Not materialist as in always having material

[Anonymous No.15037092]

>>15037040
Now i suggest you go back to my initial replies and stop being a brainlet entering mid discussion on points that were already made.
>>15037048
Being viable for the company and the CEOs doesnt mean its good for you.
>Communist states always collapse in long term. Interesting? Relationship?
Which communist states? Most of the ones that poped up like the CNT-FAI actually did work very well based on their doctrines. The fact that they were crushed doesnt mean their system doesnt work.

[Anonymous No.15037107]

>>15037063
>You still have to tell me how subjective it is and what kind of value.
I think I've told you enough - perhaps too much! Because if you were genuinely curious as an intellectual person you would already be googling subjectivity of value, and time preference, and problems with the labor theory of value and exploitation theory. But you arent.

>>15037092
>Being viable for the company and the CEOs doesnt mean its good for you.
It's always this bipartite division with Marxists. US and THEM! So confrontational. I'll make it simpler for you. Viability means you get into the future. Nonviability means you don't. If you prefer nonviable to viable, you are operationally suicidal.

[Anonymous No.15037121]

>>15037092
Doesn’t it though? A responsibility of the State is to ensure it’s own survival

[Anonymous No.15037123]

>>15037107
>if you were a true intellectual you would be googling random phrases to learn econ 101 through wiki articles
lel

[Anonymous No.15037133]

>>15036977
To own the conservatives

[Anonymous No.15037137]

>>15037123
>You must explain your terms to me!
>Also those terms are 101 level!
So you're just fucking dumb?

[Anonymous No.15037175]

>>15037137
Im not the same person I just jumped in to laugh at how dumb your advice to "google everything like an intellectual" is. Also the mark of truly understanding a concept is that you can teach it to someone else fyi

[Anonymous No.15037219]

>>15037175
Oh, so the reason your post was so retarded is that you didnt read the conversation you were entering. Got it.

[Anonymous No.15037225]

The book in OP was pretty funny. I enjoyed its hot takes.

[Anonymous No.15037241]

>>15037225
Why did you invent a new language that only has one phrase in it and it translates to "I am reddit"?

[Anonymous No.15037252]

>>15034899
Can someone translate this into not faggot for me?

[Anonymous No.15037276]

>>15037083
>How would a socialist system discover such knowledge? Could a socialist system understand fashion? What makes something trending or desirable?
Those are honestly very good questions that i still havent read and looked on. But i do believe trends would work probably in a similar way, since celebreties would still exist and have tastes that people copy cat.
But i ultimately think that these products would be produced based on how willing people are to want them and valued on their demand. But here we are also assuming as a society on which capital still exists and people work for individual labour and not collective means.

>>15037107
>It's always this bipartite division with Marxists. US and THEM! So confrontational.
Dont know why you are being so mad there, we are just having a normal discussion senpai. And yes you can very well make a disjunction between the executives and the workers.
>Viability means you get into the future. Nonviability means you don't. If you prefer nonviable to viable, you are operationally suicidal.
Being profitable is viable in capitalism, where you need profit in order to survive. But as i already said, being the most profitable doesnt mean its the best product for you.
Also to answer your question on subjectivity of value. It doesnt affect marx's claim.
If the total value is 100 then based on the equation T.L = EL + LL , the embodied labour is fixed and the value put on the labour is ajusted. So supposing that X is worth 100 and the EL is 50 then LL=50. If the other subjects dont see the value as 100 but 60 then the LL=10. And the boss will still be the one who decided how much of the 10 he will take for himself and how much to spare to the workers.
Suggest you to look on how coops work.

[Anonymous No.15037334]

>>15037018
If value is entirely subjective then there can be no study of economics. There needs to be an objective base to build off of.

[Anonymous No.15037343]

OFFICIAL CHAPO POWER RANKINGS

1. AMBER
2. MATT


who care after that


900001. virgin

[Anonymous No.15037363]

>>15037343
Virgil is best boi. I'd peg the fuck outta him

[Anonymous No.15037371]

Money and ethnic votes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2my8ikBQMY