/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15021205]

I just finished reading the Hobbit and Lord of the rings for the first time and I loved them. What should I read next? Why didn't tolkien publish a story about the fourth age? What exactly goes on in the land where the ring bearers go to in the west? Why was Gandalf wearing one of the rings? Why didn't Aragorn ever come north to see the Hobbits or bring peace to the north like he said? What happened to Legolas and Gimli? What happened to all of the orcs, were they all just under the control of Sauron and what will they do without him?

[Anonymous No.15021459]

There is some information about the Fourth Age out there. While he was alive Tolkien himself said that the ages started going by more quickly and that 2020 would be in the 7th age about, maybe the 8th.

[Anonymous No.15022088]

>>15021205
At some point he started to write a book about Aragorns son, but gave up pretty early on. After the LoTR he went back and started updating his 1st age stories, which had largely lay dormant since pre WW2. I'd say the appendices are the best things to read after the novel, which should answer a few of your questions. Then try reading the Silmarillion, but its more of a description of events than a story. If your still keen after that, History of Middle Earth vols 3, 10 and 11.

>What exactly goes on in the land where the ring bearers go to in the west?
Not much, elves doing elvish things

>Why was Gandalf wearing one of the rings?
He was given it by Cirdan (literally the oldest Elf left on ME) when he first arrived

>Why didn't Aragorn ever come north to see the Hobbits or bring peace to the north like he said?
He did. The shire was still technically part of Arnor, but he forbade men from entering it.

>What happened to Legolas and Gimli?
After helping rebuild Gondor, Gimli became lord of the glittering caves. On Gimlis deathbed, Legolas built a boat and sailed it to Valinor

>What happened to all of the orcs, were they all just under the control of Sauron and what will they do without him?
They went back to their holes in the mountains

[Anonymous No.15022285]

>>15022088
Aragorn’s ONLY son. Who became the 2nd King upon Aragorn’s death in the 4th age.

[Anonymous No.15022573]

Reminder that Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and all their imitators since were just deconstructing and slightly dumbing down ancient pagan myths (the medieval written christian accounts of which were in turn also dumbed down versions of the original oral legends) and simplifying them to a modern audiance. Disney did a similar thing to fairy tales (Tolkien ironically despised Disney despite having that in common with eachother).

There is a lot of weird, creepy stuff surrounding the Tolkien family that just recently came to my attention that is starting to put me off slightly, but I guess you should simply seperate the art from the artist even though its difficult sometimes. Especially with books I grew up with and worshiped. Because I still love the books all things considered.

Fuck the movies though. And that upcoming TV show by Bezoscorp.

[Anonymous No.15022658]

>>15022573
Source on Tolkien weird background?
Also agreed, Tolkien is the typical case of repeated forms empty of their original essence and context.

[Anonymous No.15022663]

>>15021205
Read these books in this order:
1) The Silmarillion: from "Ainulindalë" to "Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin".
2) Beren and Luthien (book).
3) The Silmarillion: "Of Beren and Lúthien" and "Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad"
4) The Children of Hurin (book).
5) The Silmarillion: "Of Túrin Turambar" and
"Of the Ruin of Doriath".
6) The Fall of Gondolin (book).
7) The Silmarillion: "Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath" and "Akallabêth"
8) The Unfinished Tales: Part Two: The Second Age
9) The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
10) the rest of The Unfinished Tales
11) Do you want more before reading History of Middle Earth? Read a biography, his letters, The Road to Middle Earth, The History of The Hobbit, Master of Middle Earth: The Fiction of J.R.R. Tolkien, etc.
12) History of Middle Earth.

[Anonymous No.15022667]

>>15022573
>There is a lot of weird, creepy stuff surrounding the Tolkien family that just recently came to my attention that is starting to put me off slightly
Such as...?

[Anonymous No.15022692]

>>15021205
Give Silmarillion a shot. Be warned that the style is very different and it may not appeal to you in the same way LOTR did.

[Anonymous No.15022710]

>>15022658
>>15022663
Primarily one of his sons (not Christopher) if the tabloids are to be believed was a pedo catholic priest who himself got molested as a kid by J.R.R:s own Oxford buddies.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/28/jrr-tolkiens-son-claims-sexually-abuse-fathers-friend

Thankfully there is nothing damning on J.R.R. himself though. I hope it stays that way. But still. Kind of makes me want to throw up regardless that not even this guy is completely clean. That there really is nothing and no one out there that is really pure. Are the nihilist and relativist douchebags actually right? Because I dont want them to be right. Theyre annoying.

[Anonymous No.15022713]

>>15022663
Oops Sorry wrong anon
>>15022573
was intended for
>>15022667

[Anonymous No.15022742]

>>15022713
Herpa Derp I meant that this: >>15022710 was intended for: >>15022667
Sorry.

[Anonymous No.15022986]

>>15021205
Seems most of these questions have been answered, so if you want a bit of a better understanding of Tolkien himself check these out.
>A Secret Vice (essay/lecture about conlanging)
>On Fairy Stories (essay/lecture defending fairy tales as literature)
>Mythopoeia (poem/diss track aimed a C.S. Lewis early in their relationship)
>Leaf by Niggle (a semi-autobiographical allegory about subcreation and death that shows the underlying religiosity in his work)

[Anonymous No.15023464]

>>15021205
>I just finished reading the Hobbit and Lord of the rings for the first time and I loved them. What should I read next?
The Children of Hurin, The Fall of Gondolin, Beren and Luthien, Silmarillion.

[Anonymous No.15023509]

>>15021205
Read the RotK appendices, they answer some of your questions. In the West are the undying lands where the Valar live (basically archangels or gods) as well as the elves who stayed there or returned. For more background you should read the Silmarillion and Children of Hurin. After that there are unfinished drafts and fragments, which are only rewarding if you're a hardcore fan. Those would be Unfinished Tales and the 12-volume History of Middle Earth. There are also Beren And Luthien and The Fall Of Gondolin, but they just reprint material from The History Of Middle Earth, with a very dry commentary by Christopher Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.15023525]

>>15021205
Congrats! You did it! You scratched the tip of the iceberg that is Tolkien's works!
>>15022663
This is a good list to work through and gives great guidance on navigating the bulk of this other works.

[Anonymous No.15023588]

>>15022710
Ah, that. I already knew that.

[Anonymous No.15023599]

>>15023525
>You scratched the tip of the iceberg that is Tolkien's works!
No, not really, it's the most of it. The recent books are just expanding on the major stories from The Silmarillion, and besides that there's only the letters, but you have to be completely autistic fan to dig into that.

[Anonymous No.15023653]

>>15023599
The Letters From Father Christmas are super heartwarming though.

[Anonymous No.15023669]

>>15023653
Obviously I was referring only to the Middle-Earth series.
Tho desu I've never really liked this style of fairy tales, imo Andersen is vastly superiour to all English children literature.

[Anonymous No.15023687]

>>15022088
>On Gimlis deathbed, Legolas built a boat and sailed it to Valinor

I thought they sailed together whilst Gimli was still alive?

[Anonymous No.15023730]

>>15023599
eh, guess I'm an autistic fan then. The content of the Silmarillion, though only one book, felt so much richer and deeper then the trilogy. I've been digging through it for years and through the histories to see the different versions Tolkien had worked through etc. The Silmarillion is just the version of the story that Christopher strung together from all Tolkien's edits and notes etc, so reading the source material he pulled that narration from (the histories of middle earth volumes) is SOO interesting. But I fully understand i'm sperging over here.

[Anonymous No.15023760]

>>15022663
don't listen to this anon, he has severe autism.
just read The Silmarillion like a normal person, no need for this nonsense

[Anonymous No.15023891]

>>15023730
I like the lore and world building of The Silmarillion. Too bad about the editing which is just all over the place. Christopher even said he had misgivings and was not really pleased about how The Silmarillion ended up in print. I think stuff like Children of Hurin flows alot better as self contained stories anyway.

[Anonymous No.15023893]

>>15021459
You do realise it's fake, right?

[Anonymous No.15023939]

>>15023893
shut up nigger

[Anonymous No.15023941]

>>15023891
If you're into this kind of thing, there is a great book called "Arda Reconstructed" by Douglas Charles Kane, that i have enjoyed. He basically goes line by line from the Silmarillion and shows where the source material came from. It goes a long way to show what information was pulled directly from Tolkien's writings and what was added/subtracted/assumed by Christopher in the editorial phase.

[Anonymous No.15023952]

>>15023893
Whats funny is that Tolkien originally just wrote all this stuff for his kids and never intended it to become some megacorp monstrous franchise. One of the reasons he detested Disney who deliberately wanted his thing to be a megacorp from day one.

Again I just think think the Tolkiens are weird. Especially towards each other it seems. Stuff like Christopher disowning his own son because they autistically started to bicker about the Peter Jackson movies. Christopher in general just seemed weird. On the one I get where he was coming from guarding his fathers literary legacy tooth and nail from the megacorps and I have mad respect for him because of that alone. And I hate what Amazon is about to do. On the other hand though there is the fact he published all this more or less unfinished stuff like The Silmarillion even though his own father would probably not have allowed it to published in the unfinished state it was. Wasnt that in J.R.R:s will or something? That anything he had not finished should NOT be published.

Only The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings is hard canon when you think about it. Silmarillion and everything published posthumously kind of isnt.

[Anonymous No.15023974]

>>15021205
>What exactly goes on in the land where the ring bearers go to in the west?
If you want to know this, follow other anons' advice and read The Silmarillion.
>>15023891
Christopher was too hard on himself. He did well with the material he had. The Silmarillion has always been my favorite Tolkien book.
>>15022710
>Tolkien's son was repeatedly raped in his own home by one of his father's friends
There is no good in this world and I am going to kill myself.

[Anonymous No.15023979]

>>15023952
>even though his own father would probably not have allowed it to published in the unfinished state it was.
>Wasnt that in J.R.R:s will or something?
No, not at all.
Tolkien told his son that he could pretty much do what he liked, so you could say that Christopher was actually very restrained, compared with Herbert for example.

[Anonymous No.15023992]

>>15023979
True, after The Silmarillion Christopher pretty much refused to publish a single word that was not written by his father. It was all unfinished scraps with commentary.

[Anonymous No.15024007]

Can anyone tell me if the History of the Hobbit differs between the one volume version and the two? Ebay says there are 16b/W, 15 Col Plates in the one volume, but mentions nothing in Part 1 of the two volume and only 12b/W, 1 Col Illus, Index in the second

[Anonymous No.15024009]

>>15023974
>There is no good in this world and I am going to kill myself.

My initial reaction to this as well. Arda marred.

I allways try to seperate the art from the artist. I really do. But damn. It just becomes a bit too much sometimes.

I felt like a part of me died ten times over when I first read it. Its one of those type of kind feels I never want to feel again.

[Anonymous No.15024015]

>>15023979
>>15023992
Oh. My bad then. I must have mixed it all up with another author then. Man. Autism is a bitch.

[Anonymous No.15024020]

>>15024009
*Its one of these type of feels I never want to feel again.

[Anonymous No.15024026]

>>15022710
>>15024015
>>15024020
but is it true?

[Anonymous No.15024036]

>>15024026
I certainly hope its bullshit with a side order of slander. I really do. But look at this world. It sucks. I have no hope left in anyone or anything. That is what life has done to me.

Fuck the Internet. I wish I never knew half the nauseating crap I have found out online. Fuck this anxiety. Fuck my life.

[Anonymous No.15024046]

>>15024007
The changes aren't huge, it's for consistency. Tolkien had created a lot of what would be the Silmarillion before the Hobbit and originally the Hobbit wasn't a part of middle earth. Then he wrote LOTR. Then he changed a ton of shit in the Silmarillion content. So anyways the changes are like dialogue regarding the ring and the timeline changes I think.
If you're looking for a comprehensive list I'm sure you can google it, I dont have it.

[Anonymous No.15024450]

>>15023760
And you're an idiot.

[Anonymous No.15024546]

Redpill me on the jackson movies (lotr, not hobbit). Did they defile something beautiful, am I a dumb consoomer for thinking they were better of made, changes to plot and all?

[Anonymous No.15024610]

>>15024546
I would have liked them to add the scouring of the shire with some more saruman, it was really well done in the books but I can see why for narrative and length purposes it was cut as it would have added at least 15 minutes to the last movie.

[Anonymous No.15024710]

>>15023464
Is The Fall of Gondolin as light in content as Beren And Luthien?

[Anonymous No.15024743]

>>15024546
Fellowship o/t Ring is great. The rest have good parts but are kinda tedious CGI shitshows at points, like Tolkiens son said.
Without Tolkiens way of writing you miss out on a lot. His work is about soaking up history, you can only do so much in a movie. There's uncomparable passion in the movies but they can never be as timeless, deep or full of soul as the books.

[Anonymous No.15024752]

>>15024546
The editing and pacing is all messed up according to me. Too much bloat (especially in TTT and ROTK even though there is some dumb parts in FOTR as well imo). Wont go into specifics for now, but that is my general opinion. Somewhere in there is 6-7 hours of some of the best filmmaking ever. There is kino in there. Somewhere. Somewhere between all the character assassinations, lore-rape, long padding scenes, aging CGI etc. Somewhere. The set designs and the practical effects are for the most part really neat and a lot of the acting (especially in the first movie) is great. There is also really crap acting here and there though.
Its actually just amazing to me what a mess Jacksons whole LOTR trilogy is and how acclaimed it still manages to be in spite of that. I definately dont think TTT and ROTK has aged well. I know The Hobbit is even messier, but LOTR is pretty damn clunky and all over the place too.
Thats just my random opinion though. Not fact or general consensus. See them and judge for yourself if you have ten hours or so to kill. Then hunt down some fan edits. Some of those are actually kino af.

[Anonymous No.15024781]

>>15024546
Too much focus on muh epic fighting rather than rich lore and bonding between characters

[Anonymous No.15024864]

>>15024046
>>15024007
Sorry, you misunderstand me. I'm asking if the 1 volume edition is different to the 2 volumes, has extra illustrations etc. I know about the differences in The Hobbit itself. Thanks though.

[Anonymous No.15025021]

>>15024781
Pretty much this. The kino feels scenes that actually are in these movies gets intercut by le epic CGI orc armies and cavalry charges and Legolas smartass quipping with Jar Jar Gimli far too often. And dont even get me started on how Jackson ruined the battles. Especially Pelennor with the stupid ghost army and Denethor being a dick (he kind of isnt in the book).

[Anonymous No.15025458]

>>15021205
>What should I read next?

[Anonymous No.15026344]

>>15025458
lol I knew some anon was going to dump this here. You sir are a man of fine taste and culture.
But seriously. Dont namedrop this one too often. Some sleazebag executive at Amazon or HBO or Netflix might be lurking. Dont give them ideas. Keep Eddisons work safe from the megacorps. Keep them secret. Keep them safe. Shush.

[Anonymous No.15026392]

>>15023952
TO be fair, It was kind of a product of his academic profession too. Its not like it was just a labor of love it was also a labor of occupation.

[Anonymous No.15026425]

>>15026344
check'd and acknowledg'd
You're right though they would pozz the hell out of it too. Since Eddison's already been mentioned in this thread though, I'll just add that pic related is even better than Ourobors imo.

[Anonymous No.15026430]

>>15026392
Sure. But it was still just his hobby. Nothing he wanted to expose the whole world too. He never really wanted the books to become too popular. He detested the extremist elements on both sides of the political spectrum constantly allegorizing his work. He felt disgusted by both white supremacists/nordicist/nazis/whatever and the counterculture doing it. I would to desu.

[Anonymous No.15026464]

>>15026430
*I would too

[Anonymous No.15026745]

Read the Kalevala and the Edda and Der Ring Des Nibelungen and Grendel

[Anonymous No.15027826]

>>15025458
Gonna give this a read