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/lit/ - Literature

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1499037 No.1499037 [Reply] [Original]

If you were to teach someone the course of world history in under six books - and keep it entertaining - which books would you choose for him to read?

>> No.1499055

Neat thread

distasteful gif

ranked from most ancient to more modern
1 indigenous tales of the Native Americans
2 Suetonius' twelve Caesars
3 The Prince
4 Candide
5 The Jungle
6 reserved

I focused more on human history

6 reserved because the story simply isn't finished

>> No.1499056

If it helps, she's a college student who grew up in a shitty education system, and wants to develop an understanding of the world.

>> No.1499065

>>1499055

As much as I loved reading the Prince, I wouldn't consider it an 'entertaining' read, unless one is a fan of mildly dry satire.

>> No.1499061
File: 17 KB, 300x300, don draper.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1499061

>dat gif

>> No.1499080

>>1499055
what a silly thing to say

they aren't works that i find entertaining necessarily

they each captured the state of human affairs at the times when they were written

I wouldn't call the prince a satire

try halftire

>> No.1499086

What about Guns, Germs, and Steel?

>> No.1499087

>>1499080
It was a satire.
Machiavelli spent his entire life rallying against everything that he rallied for in The Prince... O_O

And OP asked for entertaining.
I was merely stating that while your list might be decent, you did not fulfill the request.

>> No.1499090

>>1499065

>As much as I loved reading the Prince, I wouldn't consider it an 'entertaining' read

Yeah man, I feel y--

>satire

I hope you have the same fate as the mouse in that gif.

>> No.1499092

any book that deals historically and/or theoretically about empires

there are of course exceptions, nuances and novel developments, but if you have an understanding of how empires rise and fall and their relation to subject states, you'll have a good understanding of how most of world history *works*.

if you seek a broad cultural understanding of things i'd go along the lines that >>1499055 suggested. i'd only include more religious texts.

>> No.1499097

>>1499087
>>1499080
If you want to read a satire you need to understand what is being satirized. If OP's girl doesn't have much knowledge of 16th century Italian politics then The Prince is a terrible choice.

>> No.1499103

>>1499087
>he spent his whole life rallying against everything that he rallied for in The Prince

my god, just stop

i was willing to grant you halftire, but it seems you know nothing of M himself

i thought you were referring to the controversy surrounding Machie's affairs with Lorenzo

I only wish that were true

>> No.1499110

>>1499092
>I'd include more religious texts
you really only need one ancient holy book

they are all petty similar and it's not as if religion has evolved as well as humans have

humans have grown secular over time, not atheist, simply secular

>> No.1499108

>>1499103
Okay.
http://www.idehist.uu.se/distans/ilmh/Ren/flor-mach-mattingly.htm
Read this.

Come back to me when you've read more from Machiavelli than this pamphlet.

>> No.1499119

>>1499103

I heard you're wrong and that other dude is right. Just sayin LOL

>> No.1499120

>>1499108
its the way you worded the other posts that really ruined things

Machiavelli "spent his whole life rallying against what he rallied for in The Prince"?

he did not

he spent his whole life serving Florence and when things got rough Florence said fuck it

Big M got butthurtt, and possibly, we don't know for sure, wrote The Prince in an attempt to expose the workings of the government to the common man

a "satire" is the wrong word entirely

>> No.1499124

Traditions and Encounters by Jerry Bentley and Herbert Ziegler

>> No.1499125

>>1499119
people say a lot of things

maybe I feel too confident in my pretty basic knowledge of Machiavelli, but even those basic truths clash pretty hard with what he was saying

we'll just have to fight about it

>> No.1499126

The Bible
The Koran
The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire
Tao te Ching
The People's History of the United States
A Short History of Nearly Everything

>> No.1499127

Hey Fabulous, can you please not shit up my thread? I'm trying to see what other people have to say.

>> No.1499128

>>1499120

I just facepalmed.
Fine, the use of 'rally' was incorrect.
But every other work that he wrote was almost a polar opposite belief of what he said in 'The Prince.'

If you don't want to refer to it as a satire that's fine, but to say it was anything more than an ironic political piece is absolutely idiotic.

>> No.1499129

>>1499126
>The Bible
That one is definitely not history.

>> No.1499133

Il Principe, Macchiavelli
Essays on the Materialist Conception of History, Labriola
Propaganda, Bernays
the Capital, Karl Marx
the Scandals of Translation, Lawrence Venuti
the 120 days of sodom

>> No.1499138

>>1499129

It's cultural history. Close enough.

Still a good book to have in your backpocket when discussing Western values and art.

>> No.1499140

>>1499120
That's one interpretation. He also may have written in the hope people took it seriously and fucked shit up for the rulers who exiled him.

>> No.1499150

>>1499110
agreed for most salvation religions, but the bhagavad gita is different enough to warrant inclusion, i think.

>> No.1499154

>>1499129
but the bible captures the early confusion and resulting delusion that man placed himself under in order to escape that aforementioned confusion

i don't get why he included the Koran as well though

>>1499128
I assume you mean the Discourses, they do clash sort of heavily with The Prince, yet to say that "all of M's work besides the TP were polar opposites" is false and unkind

Either way "satire" is a horrible way to describe such a work, and this is all speculation

>> No.1499155

>>1499129
>That one is definitely not history.
If that was the case, the histories of Herodotus wouldn't be "history" either. we are an educated society, we shouldn't cling to non-issues such as semantics. if you happen to feel like shouting an angry rant against your parents/the bible, shout it into the youtube since they want to hear it right now.

>> No.1499158

>>1499133

I like the cut of your jib anon

>> No.1499162

>>1499158
I'm European. My jib is uncut. What are you doing peeking at my jib anyway, asshole?

>> No.1499163

>>1499154

Discourses was an entire novel he sat down and wrote... he also wrote other minor works that coincided with the ideas written in Discourses....

yet you base Machiavelli's entire ideology off of a fucking pamphlet?

The only reason that piece is more popular than Discourses is because it's short.
And lord knows, if given the choice between an author's best work and an author's shortest work...
they always go for less pages.

-_-

>> No.1499160

i will never believe the antisocial butthurt bolsheviks ITT to have ever read a book.

>> No.1499171

>>1499127
sorry, discussion is rare here, and I would willing theft a thread as fine as this

you'll still get your answers

>>1499150
then include that and only that

we only get 6 choices after all, if going with BG there really isn't any other doctrine besides the bible that is even close to being as ancient and influential, and the bible really lead the secular reader to the same conclusions about early human society

>>1499155
how right you are! everyone get you respective indigenous texts and hold hands! no hate here!

no discussion either, see?

>> No.1499178

I cannot even believe I just saw that gif

That was insane.

>> No.1499182

>>1499163
you are quickly exposing yourself as someone to shy away from

ignoring the fact that you. in all seriousness, tried to argue that because it had more pages, the discourses had to be genuine (please let me forget people like that dwell on this board)

i would still have to say this is all speculative to the point of being worthless, many works coincided with the Prince's ideology as well, people do change you know

>> No.1499196

>>1499182
Please name one of Machiavelli's works that coincided with The Prince.
Just one.

And no, I'm saying that society picked up The Prince because it was shorter. I apologize if I was unclear in my statement.

>> No.1499202

>>1499163
What if he'd written it standing up?

>> No.1499210

the most important thing about The Prince is the nuanced, realistic depictions of the way power works, and the pragmatic conception of political action and political virtue

the specific "be evil and tyrannical" stuff is fairly unimportant and secondary

>> No.1499214

>>1499202
Then his legs probably got really tired, and I would bow to his physical prowess.
:3

>> No.1499222

>>1499196
>Description of the Manner in which Duke Valentino put Vitellozzo Vitelli, Oliverotto da Fermo, Lord Pagola and the Duke of Gravina to Death
is similar to the Prince, and I'll forget what you said earlier upon request

>> No.1499228

 

>> No.1499235

>>1499222
This is merely a description.
I even reread it just to make sure.
There is no political ideology in here.
Nowhere in it does Machiavelli reiterate his belief that only a prince could create a stable state, ready for expansion... which is what the overlying ideology of The Prince was, other than basically being a book on 'How To Rule A Country.'

This does not prove anything.
In fact, I think you just picked an obscure work, hoping I wouldn't read/hadn't read it and would just concede that you win.

/sigh

>> No.1499245

>>1499235
you're right it's quite neutral, still similar

and i assure this is no conspiracy, you sound like you know what you're generally talking about

>The Art of War
incorporates themes from both The Prince and Discourses

>> No.1499248

>>1499245
Machiavelli plainly stated that the Art of War does not outright state his ideology but is merely a collection of stories and conversations that allows one to understand the 'Art of War.'

Try again.

>> No.1499249

>>1499154
>but the bible captures the early confusion and resulting delusion that man placed himself under in order to escape that aforementioned confusion
No, you're thinking of the Enuma Elish.

>> No.1499252

Machiavelli will always be inferior to Rousseau.

Just saying.

>> No.1499253

>>1499248
>Machiavelli's Art of War echoes many themes, issues, ideas and proposals from his earlier, more widely read works, The Prince and The Discourses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War_%28Machiavelli%29

went like, one paragraph down, took about that long

>> No.1499255

>>1499155
Woah, way to project bro. Bible isn't a history like Herodotus is a history, it's like a complex novel. Shit's deep, and full of symbolism. Herodotus is more like cool stories at the bar I heard from Dave, that are totally true, swear to God.

>> No.1499256

>>1499252
>I want to play teamsies

>> No.1499259
File: 9 KB, 208x243, christ2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1499259

>>1499255
see how peaceful J looks here, almost euphoric? but resentful

he's obviously a metaphor for the closeted gay lover, the most powerful love known to man

evidence
1. nails are phallic symbols, much like the massive cross, the nails are literally driven into christ and penetrate his marble skin
2. the Romans actually did rape J on the cross (heard it on some blog, dunno if true)
3. the "passion" of the christ??

>> No.1499264

>>1499252
Agreed

>>1499253
>mfw you used Wikipedia as a reference.
I'm sorry.
That doesn't even deserve me surfing my reaction faces.

>The format of The Art of War is a socratic dialogue.

From the "credible" source you just listed.
Of course themes from both books are going to be part of a collection of opposing views.

>.<

>> No.1499268
File: 93 KB, 300x396, 3811393136_6f92d6defd..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1499268

Got it in two

>> No.1499273

Well guys, thanks to the two people who actually posted suggestions.

>> No.1499277

OH!
WAIT!
I know how to counter you!
I'll reference Wikipedia too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince#Interpretation_of_The_Prince_as_political_satire

>> No.1499278

>>1499264
>he actually believes Wikipedia isn't a credible source
you have a problem you check their references

also

where's your source?

>> No.1499283

>>1499259
Well, you can try interpreting it like that, or you can, for example, go:
>This is
You have it here, right now
>the Good News
There's only one of this, it's awesome, it's relevant to right now
>according to Mark
It's someone's perspective, and that someone is Mark, which is just another way of saying Anon.

Also, second Adam is an impossible interpretation without symbolism. Garden of Gethsemane, Olive trees, what they make crucifixes out of, garden of Death, Eden was the Garden of life. Think about it.

>> No.1499285

>>1499108
>>1499278

Garrett Mattingly: "Machiavelli's Prince: Political Science or Political Satire?" The American Scholar 27 (1958): 482-491.

Yeah. I posted a source at the beginning.
:D

>> No.1499312

>>1499277
>Whether or not the word "satire" is the best choice
from the entry

I haven't argued against The Prince being a satire completely, I'm saying it's largely ambiguous

>>1499283
>>1499283
oh we could go with the whole, jesus as a handsome, compassionate, somewhat effeminate bottom

just as relevant and deep

>> No.1499328

>>1499312
That is neither relevant nor deep.

And why is there a naked man when JC is being taken away? He's like a bloody Tom Bombadil.

>> No.1499331

>>1499312
Using that against me doesn't work.

I posted here >>1499128

that maybe satire wasn't the right word, but calling it anything other than political irony would be a idiotic.
/sigh

Just admit you're wrong so we can give this poor kid his thread back.
I wrote a paper on this for my political thought class. I've already done fucktons of research on this man. :)

>> No.1499339

>>1499285
oh right

that big ol' text book of a web page

they need references too champ, or at least "facts"

I know that sounds absurd, but the site needs to be somewhat credible

i read a so-so sized portion and he generally just goes off of his own word, which is fine, but still, leaves things ambiguous

>> No.1499343

>>1499339
It's an academic journal.
>Wikipedia is credible.
>Wikipedia references academic journals.
>The article has quotes and references to both works to prove his point....

are you even trying anymore?

>> No.1499346

>>1499331
I'll admit that you've presented a strong case, and that you obviously know your Machiavelli

but do you think you've proven beyond reasonable doubt that all that you've said is true?

and i am still going to beleive that The Prince is a halftire

I just don't know absolutely

>> No.1499358

>>1499343
no, i read a small portion and left

my mistake

>> No.1499363

>>1499346
I would have shied away about three posts in, but you tried to tell me I was stupid and didn't know my Machiavelli.
I consider this as much of a victory as if you had conceded completely. Mostly because, from lurking here for a long time, I've realized that you don't often give into others' ideas.
Btw, I also happen to be the Gatsby poster too.
:3

I decided to start tripfagging.

>> No.1499367

>>1499363
nemesis #3

>Mostly because, from lurking here for a long time, I've realized that you don't often give into others' ideas

have you met the other tripfaggots?

>> No.1499376

So far, what I've seen is that they just post random things without coherent thought with the occasional, (most likely accidental), string of words that makes a bit of sense.

>> No.1499382

For the most important part of world history, that being modern Western history, Catch-22 and White Noise.

Honestly I think you're pretty set after that.

>> No.1499388

>>1499376
i was being jocular

but i would deem your analysis quite correct

>> No.1499550

1. A People's History of the World by Chris Harman
2. A People's History of the US: 1492 to Present by Howard Zinn
3. The Norton Anthology of Western Literature (any volume)
4. The History of the Ancient World by Susan Wise Bauer


all I got.

>> No.1499571

>>1499550
>Norton's Antho
CHEATER

>> No.1500971

I need to keep this thread alive for when I come back from classes in 8 HOURS.

Someone keep it alive, please!

>> No.1501459

>>1499346
>but do you think you've proven beyond reasonable doubt that all that you've said is true?

"What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate

>> No.1501489

>>1499037
Do you mean like ACTUAL history, or snapshots?

Do you mind Euro/America centrism? I'll try to work something broader in too.

>> No.1501714

The History of the World, Told in Food (and one book on drugs):

Salt: A World History (Mark Kurlansky)
The Taste of Conquest: The Rise and Fall of the Three Great Cities of Spice (Michael Krondl)
A History of the World in 6 Glasses (Tom Standage)
Banana: The Fate of the Fruit That Changed the World (Dan Koeppel)
Curry: A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors (Lizzie Collingham)
Forces of Habit: Drugs and the Making of the Modern World (David T. Courtwright)

There's a certain amount of redundancy here, obviously. Still, food history is a great way to get a high-up overview of world history.

Jesus Christ. Captcha: foods, foining