Modern people find Machiavelli philosophy so awful, when in fact it's very practical and necessary. Anyways, what do you think of this guy?I want to know.

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Anonymous Mon Mar 23 18:51:21 2020 No.14938049 [Reply] [Original]

Modern people find Machiavelli philosophy so awful, when in fact it's very practical and necessary.

Anyways, what do you think of this guy?I want to know.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 18:52:35 2020 No.14938059 >>14938049 I like him. I still believe he wrote Il Principe as a sarcastic commentary.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:00:41 2020 No.14938123 >>14938049 modern people can suck my trad cock. machiavelli is based

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:04:53 2020 No.14938153 >>14938049 Machiavellian thinking gives rise to people like Nixon

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:06:19 2020 No.14938162 >>14938153 Only brainlets read Machiavelli as an instruction rather than a cautionary tale

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:07:56 2020 No.14938174 >>14938049 Machiavelli was an artist, he wrote to the prince in suggestion that he too could be an artist of the state - creating, maintaining, and living it as the prince would be the ultimate ruling principle of the principality

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:08:42 2020 No.14938176 >>14938162 Like Nixon

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:10:03 2020 No.14938184 Only thing I know about Machiavelli is that everyone is an asshole.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:28:11 2020 No.14938311 >>14938184 He doesn't meant that, he meant that everyone has its self-interest and you shouldn't subestimate this fact

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:29:47 2020 No.14938321 >>14938123 He's not trad btw, the tradcucks live in a fantasy, he didn't.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:30:19 2020 No.14938322 >>14938162 Capitalists/entrepeneurs and the like tend to take it seriously, but such people are generally moral nihilists so it works well for them

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:32:52 2020 No.14938334 >>14938322 How could you read my mind, and discover that me as a capitalist take him seriously? How dare you?!

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:37:54 2020 No.14938359 >>14938059 I don't think so, but i don't think it's impossible >>14938174 Anyone who read philosophy or literature as a manual for life is a brainlet. Machiavelli has some good insights, anyways.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:38:10 2020 No.14938360 >>14938049 His concept of virtu is still pretty up to date. Had to read the principe in first semester of political theory at Uni in Germany

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:39:27 2020 No.14938367 >>14938322 Partially true. It's the wannabe entrepreneurs that praise Art of War and The Prince without having the ability to understand either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:43:41 2020 No.14938386 >>14938367 The same brand that read stoicism as it was some kind of lifr-hack, entrepreneurial mindset, self-help. They miss the very essence of stoicism, that is following reason over passion.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:45:03 2020 No.14938394 File: 15 KB, 260x261, 15247174.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14938386 yes...the uninitiated will always take away a surface level understanding...

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:47:13 2020 No.14938405 >>14938049 It's pure trash that serves nobody but the Prince himself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:51:28 2020 No.14938431 >>14938405 and people who read it

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 19:53:51 2020 No.14938440 >>14938405 You're the prince of your reign, that is you govern your life. Also a good prince will be better for the people than a bad in the Machiavellic sense. As Machiavelli stated is better to a prince to not be hated.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:03:42 2020 No.14938494 >be nice to people around you so that they like you Wow, what a cold-hearted philosophical outlook

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:03:47 2020 No.14938495 Bro machiavelli was a die hard republican, he wrote Il Principe as a warning and a final fuck you to all the despots that had fucked him over before. Read his other works and you'll understand

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:04:48 2020 No.14938503 >>14938405 >implying what is good for the machiavellian prince isn't good for the principality in the end

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:05:21 2020 No.14938507 >>14938405 You didn't get, machiavelli was warning you about all the fucked up shit prince's will do to keep power.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:12:56 2020 No.14938553 >>14938059 Cringe

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:14:17 2020 No.14938561 >>14938494 Be kind and see yourself being cucked by every person alive in your area.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:17:45 2020 No.14938576 >>14938561 Be mean and see yourself socially isolated and starved of opprotunity

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:18:24 2020 No.14938579 >>14938059 >>14938153 >>14938162 >>14938184 >>14938321 >>14938322 >>14938367 >>14938386 >>14938405 >>14938495 >>14938507 Unironical pseuds

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:19:40 2020 No.14938584 >>14938579 ...cringe... very....cringe....

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:21:39 2020 No.14938592 machiavelli BTFO the greeks. don't bother with the greek pseudofaggotry

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:21:41 2020 No.14938593 >>14938576 How unmachiavellian of you

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:22:44 2020 No.14938599 >>14938576 Wait no, I meant to reply to the guy you were replying

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:27:15 2020 No.14938624 >>14938561 >Be kind and see yourself being cucked by every person alive in your area. funny coming from someone who probably thinks if you see a black guy and white girl kissing in a tv commercial then you're cucked

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:29:28 2020 No.14938636 >>14938624 You're more obsessed than the immaginary poster you have inside your mind

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:30:04 2020 No.14938640 >>14938579 Beggin' ya to read the discourses on livy

Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:42:47 2020 No.14938711

I think that he's great. The perfect way to weed out the pseuds who read and understand through the memes they've been taught by the pop culture (le evil machiavelli, le it was actually satire) and those who consciously study the time period, context of his ideas and how the text itself works.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:45:21 2020 No.14938726 >>14938640 Confirmed pseud

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:46:31 2020 No.14938728 >>14938049 Modern "people" LARP as moralists in public then read Machiavelli and his self-help derivatives in their closets. 21th century was a mistake.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:46:50 2020 No.14938730 >>14938711 Holy based...

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:48:36 2020 No.14938739 >>14938049 (OP) Modern "people" LARP as moralists in public then read Machiavelli and his self-help derivatives in their closets. 21st century was a mistake.

Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:49:23 2020 No.14938743
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I am an actual cutthroat capitalist. I don't care if others get burned by what I do because they're NPCs easily replaceable by anyone. It truly is a doggy dog world and the unwashed masses are a diamond dozen. People don't have inherent value. You gotta make something out of yourself and earn value.
Any questions?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:50:26 2020 No.14938749 >>14938743 What do you do?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:50:43 2020 No.14938752 >>14938743 If someone did that same to you, just fucked your shit up, how would you respond emotionally?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:50:54 2020 No.14938754 >>14938576 Ok, cuck just everyone nice and wait for them to piss in your face. Don't be a brainlet and understand that you should be nice to few people and the rest be nice only to sell something. Otherwise you're a perfect victim to psichos out there

Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:53:24 2020 No.14938770

>>14938754
No ones advocating for blind trust, but the way you actually build a useful reputation and power base is through kindness and generosity. No one will want you to be their boss if you whip them and rape their wives for not fufilling their daily quota

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:53:34 2020 No.14938772 >>14938624 Go treat yourself. You're projecting your homo fantasy of sucking bbc >>14938636 Maybe he's bored of the pol/tards. I emphasize with him

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:55:11 2020 No.14938780 >>14938739 Yeah, people can't leave the facade of good guy. God... it's all so tiresome.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:56:09 2020 No.14938788 >>14938754 Anon, you realize that the mass majority of people aren't looking to slit your throat right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 20:59:53 2020 No.14938806 >>14938743 You're redpilled. It's painful to the normies to realize it. Can we be friends? You know, take some redpills, play chess, watch got

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 21:20:45 2020 No.14938920 >>14938579 So what meaning is to be taken out of it, o wise one?

Anonymous Mon Mar 23 21:27:56 2020 No.14938955

>>14938920
The Prince contained unironic advices written so the Medici family applied them, noticed that they worked and let Macchiavelli have his old position in Florence.
Macchiavelli believed every single thing that he wrote in the Prince.
The people who keep citing the Discourses to defend le satire meme either read neither books, or lack any kind of ability to discern context, to understand how human beings work, or simply lack sharpness.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 21:46:47 2020 No.14939043 >>14938788 Only takes one.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 21:57:13 2020 No.14939116 >>14938955 I thought Lorenzo de Medici never read it

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 23:22:10 2020 No.14939544 File: 90 KB, 666x473, bonehead.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14938059 >the prince was satire

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 23:30:08 2020 No.14939564 >>14938153 Nixon was a genius though, last great president of the Republic

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 23:35:04 2020 No.14939581 >>14938770 You've clearly never read the prince. Why do you comment on a book (that's short enough to be read in an afternoon) when ll you know about it is memes?

Anonymous Mon Mar 23 23:42:56 2020 No.14939618

>>14938743
No you're not. Know how I know? Because capitalists, i.e elites tell the peons this
> You gotta make something out of yourself and earn value
shit to make them impotent while they do fucking nothing and 90% of the time are blithering retards born with some connections.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 23 23:44:45 2020 No.14939621 >>14938049 Machiavelli's work is descriptive not normative

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 00:43:18 2020 No.14939826

>>14939618
Stop being a bitching peasant. You're not going to create a better life for yourself by moralizing your suffering or developing pathologies around success.

Successful people have a vastly different mentality than poorfags. In particular they tend to value their time a lot more and are more driven towards material success (shocking).

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 02:51:13 2020 No.14940257 >>14938049 The world is ruled by psychopaths, he just put some rulles on the paper.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 03:15:25 2020 No.14940319 >>14939564 >Took the U S. off the gold standard >opened up trade relations with sneaky chinks

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 04:22:48 2020 No.14940516 >>14938743 I thought it was dog-eat-dog world

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 04:24:08 2020 No.14940520 >>14938955 Oversocialized people can only think of moral reasons to defend positions

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 04:25:58 2020 No.14940523

>hurr durr it was satire, he thought this was a bad way to rule

What the fuck? Are you guys retarded or sweetly and innocently naive?

He didn't write this in concern of the welfare of the Prince. He was concerned with the welfare of the Res Publica (common wealth) first and foremost, and he simply laid out the facts that for a good ruler seeking to protect his people, he needs to be ruthless with the ones at the top.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 04:41:23 2020 No.14940571

>>14940523
Anything aside from the tacit agreement that the world is a moral place and the people ruling us must be outstandingly good people (at least the ones we like) is taken as a sign of moral failure by pseuds and retards.

It's not like the Prince even recommends the rulers do particularly bad things, there's nothing about brutally torturing your enemies or raping woman or the best ways to steal and murder. It's just decent advice like 'save your generosity for when its appreciated because people are ficky and will take you for granted' and 'standing armies have more loyalty than mercenaries'. But because it's a book written with more nuance than "sharing=good" NPCs get their circuits crossed trying to digest it all and find it easier to retreat to the comfort of moral platitudes while condemning Machiavelli as either a monster or a fool.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 04:42:01 2020 No.14940572 >>14938743 yes I do: how can you make anything out of yourself by saying stuff like "it's a doggy dog world out there" like lmao learn to spell champ

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 05:48:15 2020 No.14940771

>>14940571
This. People apparently lack quite basic reading comprehension. For a certain anaysis I did in school years ago I pulled out exact quotes where he warns about the most "immoral" methods - they can bring you power and success but will not bring *glory*, which is obviously a category of greater ethical value to him, but he explicitly warns that he is not concerned with that in this particular text.
>E, parlando del primo modo, si mostrerà con duoi esempi, l’uno antico, l’altro moderno, senza entrare altrimenti ne’ meriti di questa parte...
>senza entrare altrimenti ne’ meriti di questa parte
Admittedly, I looked up an English translation on Project Gutenberg and it is horrifying bad:
>And speaking of the first method, it will be illustrated by two examples—one ancient, the other modern—and without entering further into the subject...
Completely losing his original distinction and the key word - merito - and basically writing gibberish (entering further into what subject?) even if read in wider context. I suppose such "translations" are what creates these misconceptions about Machiavelli.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 06:27:55 2020 No.14940905 >>14938049 Every wannabee Warren Buffet and polisci twats have the prince and sun tzu on their meagre bookshelf

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 07:24:07 2020 No.14941083 >>14938059 It's more likely that he wrote it so that he could find a job

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 07:57:26 2020 No.14941186 >>14940771 Anon, you must understand the anglo is an evil and deformed creature. Everything it touches, it turns to filth. Don't reason with an anglo: kill him, or use him as a slave.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 08:30:27 2020 No.14941276
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>>14938049
Idealists will hate him. Fools and cowards will not even open the prince, in fear of what they might find.

Being good is not about saying nice things, and neither is it about being kind. It is about doing what needs to be done, what is required for stability and harmony to reign. When there is harmony trade flourishes, knowledge increases and lives get better. When there is chaos and struggle things regress, people hide in their homes, no one trusts anyone enough to trade.

Machiavelli does not advocate tyranny, but a heavy hand in the service of peace.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 08:57:28 2020 No.14941374 >>14938743 lmao at doggy dog world, stealing that

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 09:11:49 2020 No.14941424 >>14938743 >doggy dog world, not dog eat dog >diamond dozen, not dime a dozen High quality bait.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 10:31:41 2020 No.14941719

>>14940771
It's difficult to translate from latin based languages to Germanic based languages. I've read in Portuguese and i found the translation very clear on what Machiavelli was about. But there are people that seem to have read those broken translations and misunderstood completely.
>>14941276
Nowadays this is called Realpolitik. If Machiavelli was relevant today they would never let the immigrants in in Europe.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 10:36:45 2020 No.14941739

The Prince was a realist manual for ruling and anyone saying its satire, a warning, art, ect. is literally retarded. Machiavelli wanted a job and Il Principe was supposed to demonstrate his genius.

Also, if it was anything but a manual, why have some of the most powerful men in history kept it by their sides?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 10:55:05 2020 No.14941813 >>14941739 Nerds, basedboys etc like to think they are smarter or otherwise superior than most powerful men like Kissinger, Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Richard Lionheart, Charlemagne, Caesar, Alexander, Cortez etc

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 10:58:59 2020 No.14941832 >>14940319 Neither of those things would have been a problem if Nixon succeeded in reorganizing the executive

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 11:32:32 2020 No.14941992

>>14941719
Machiavelli is not important if you read him too literally, because we now live in a world where repressentative democracy reigns supreme.

But he is important too cure ideas like "anarchism" or "antiimperialism"

The Machiavellian today takes its form in national security, imperialism, and financial institutions.

Sometimes you see retarded marxists and pinkos reject the IMF or american imperialism, without noticing that these makes democracy and free trade possible, and is aggressively spreading then globaly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 11:49:54 2020 No.14942090 File: 94 KB, 858x821, 1564097529290.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14941992 >this entire post

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 12:00:18 2020 No.14942147
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>>14938049
>dim bulbs think Machiavelli meant you should be a heartless shitlord
>he actually meant you should be a good person in a world of heartless shitlords, but know and use all their tricks, because being a loser and a good person is bullshit, but being a loser and saying it's only because you're a good person is some kind of cosmic bullshit cop-out

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 12:04:21 2020 No.14942179 >>14941739 Because a literal reading of it seems like a licence to be a galloping cunt. That's why you've heard of Ayn Rand, all her work is "It's okay to shit on people" and she died on welfare.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 12:06:13 2020 No.14942191 >>14941813 >too broad a list Napoleon was a smart, razor-sharp heavy, while Hitler was a half-educated punk installed by ugly old men.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 12:28:24 2020 No.14942360 >>14942191 Hitler was a political and military genius. Yes, military genius, you read that right, he was unironically better than Rommel

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 14:18:23 2020 No.14942936

>>14942179
Ayn Rand is not about being an asshole. Oh, god. Why don't you read her books and stop spreading common sense bs about her. She was never into bullying people, instead she thought that a man should have self-esteem and follow your own interest

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 17:32:11 2020 No.14944204 Pretty based

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 17:35:38 2020 No.14944228 >>14942147 Based School Of Life watcher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQlnmWCPgA Tbf while they get things wrong sometimes I think they're on the money with this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 17:38:10 2020 No.14944237 >modern people

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 18:43:30 2020 No.14944672 >>14938049 He is the beginning of modern political philosophy. A close reading of Chapter 15 is of incredible value. I highly recommend Strauss, Viroli, and Mansfield's stuff on Machiavelli.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 19:20:17 2020 No.14944918

>>14938743
NO “I” AM am an actual cutthroat capitalist. I don't care if others get frozen by what I do because they're NPCs easily substituted by anybody. It truly is a dog meat dog world and the unwashed asses are a dying doesn’t. People don't have apparent value. You gotta make something out of your elf and earn valor.
¿Any questionés?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 19:25:42 2020 No.14944946 >>14938049 lmao is that Patches from Dark Souls?

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/lit/ - Literature