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/lit/ - Literature

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1489695 No.1489695 [Reply] [Original]

Have any of my fellow left /lit/izens read this? It's really kind of good and it's gotten me back into Marxist theory. Suggestions for further reading would be appreciated, but keep in mind I've read most of the obligatory texts already. Also, commie /lit/ general thread gogogo

>> No.1489719

Marxism is to Capitalism what Existentialism is to Meaning.

>> No.1489725

>>1489719
What do you even mean by that? It could be interpreted in different ways. Nice pseudo-laconic statement.

>> No.1489732

>>1489725
I don't care enough to explicate because I have to fill up my hot water bottle and go to bed. Think of two-sided coin.

>> No.1489733

>>1489719
goddamn it, you are much too technical in your sayings, the problem is that you actually know what you're talking about

i'll have to write up a guide on being witty and post it later

of course, it might be to my advantage to retain the gifts the gods have given me

but now that would be expected of me, so it seems it is an option lost at the moment

>> No.1489738

>>1489732

Get bored of /soc/, did we?

>> No.1489762

>>1489725
Yes, like I thought you were just saying a lot of nothing. Marxism is not the other side of the capitalist coin, false dichotomies are unbecoming of you. Anyway, you're probably gone, but I'd like to see someone else defend this position--it's tenuous but a good justification would be entertaining at least.

>> No.1489768
File: 29 KB, 263x233, jollymickeymouse.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1489768

>>1489738

yeah that place is a human toilet bowl it's just unreal

nighty night

>> No.1489773

>>1489762
that's not a false dichotomy; that would be if I told you Either A or B, which is something I have done nowhere in this thread.

>> No.1489776

>>1489768
retiring for the night? how will you see my report on all that is witty?

my talents are wasted on you swine

>> No.1489793

>>1489773
You suggested marxism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin
>two sides
>opposing sides on a coin
you get where I heard dichotomy?

>> No.1489805

>>1489762
>Marxism is not the other side of the capitalist coin
I like how you say it that way and not "capitalism is not the other side of the marxist coin" or that you classify the coin, which is two sided, as one side to begin with and utterly miss the point.

>>1489793
That's not logically equivalent to "either A or B", that is what you are trying to make it into because your pea brain can't handle or doesn't have te prerequisite information to interpret what I am saying to you.

>> No.1489814

>>1489805
Yeah, and now you got "tough" because someone called you on weak reasoning.
>pea brain
Who said it needed to be equivalent to "either A or B" that is your petty definition of a dichotomy, and I was explaining that said definition is limited and baby-minded.
Either way, a coin would be inherently capitalist you fuckwit, lrn2poetic.

>> No.1489818

>>1489733
>i'll have to write up a guide on being witty and post it later

>of course, it might be to my advantage to retain the gifts the gods have given me

What sort of a gift is the ability to spout wafer-thin dittys

>> No.1489831

>>1489814
>Who said it needed to be equivalent to "either A or B" that is your petty definition of a dichotomy
That is what a dichotomy, false or no, is defined as. If you disagree, there is nothing to talk about.

>I was explaining that said definition is limited and baby-minded.
It's a perfectly good definition. that's why it's a dichotomy, not a trichotomy or quadchotomy or octochotomy

Switch coin for anything that has two sides, I don't care.

>> No.1489835

>>1489818
a dying breed of a gift

a gift that shall soon be all but absent from our world if i publish nothing before i jump off something big before 40, or whenever i lose my aristocratic countenance

>> No.1489849

>>1489835
you're just like someone i know irl. lay-off the fucking oscar wilde.

where you from, country?

>> No.1489860

>>1489849
I won't assign myself a homeland, doing so would cause a great deal of currently held fantasies surrounding me to perish

and I think i should not even speak of Wilde, he is too favored a man, my favorite author obviously

>> No.1489861

whoresblood

>> No.1489856

>>1489831
Your thinking is so standard and uptight there really isn't anything to talk to you about. I think you are missing the essential quality of a dichotomy--it is not either/or ..it is about synthetic connections formed ideologically...the issue of dichotomies was given rise to by a post-structural analysis...they were not talking about either/or connections but about any connections between two concepts which were formed synthetically in the service of power...It doesn't have to be "either capitalism or socialism" it can simply be comparing the two. I did not endeavor to compare capitalism with socialism at all, that was your mistake.

>> No.1489864

>>1489861
>>1489860

it worked. thanks asshole

>> No.1489875

>>1489860
>>1489861
am i missing something here? i will feel embarrassed if this is some sort of literary joke

>> No.1489879

>>1489856
Cool. But I haven't given you a dichotomy anywhere in this thread. You keep seeing a two-sided coin as a dichotomy, which is your problem. I don't need someone spoonfeeding me the very obvious realisation that all dichotomies are underpinned by ideology.

>It doesn't have to be "either capitalism or socialism" it can simply be comparing the two. I did not endeavor to compare capitalism with socialism at all, that was your mistake.
All of this does not apply to me because of the very simple fact that you are projecting a dichotomy onto what I've said.

>> No.1489902
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1489902

d&e must feel mighty smart trolling poor anons.

>> No.1489914

>>1489879
You said this is to this as this is to this..a pretty standard comparison. I take issue with you juxtaposing capitalism and marxism as _though_ they were a dichotomy--it basically implies a dichotomy--i mean why didn't you compare capitalism and sado-masochism? Or marxism and genetic biology? You were being ideological, and I don't agree with that ideology so I deconstructed the fact that, no matter how detached the rhetoric, you were still making a statement against socialism.

>> No.1489925

>>1489725
better question, why do you care.

it's fairly easy to understand d&e's politics though. short version of it is that it is shit.

>> No.1489932

>>1489902
I take a stance of incredulity towards deep and edgy's trolling

>> No.1489944

>>1489860
No one holds fantasies about you. You are a low tier newfag here. Where from fggt.

>> No.1489952

>>1489925
you know, d&e proposes narcissism as his main staple, but i think what he should really be known for is his knack for punny nicknames

i'm pretty sure he's given every tripfag one of those campy little titles

"fagulout" reporting in

my favorite is "fooltop"

>> No.1489957

>I take issue with you juxtaposing capitalism and marxism as _though_ they were a dichotomy--it basically implies a dichotomy
I'd like you to talk about marxism without inevitably capitalism, this should be good

>You were being ideological
So are you, so is onionring. Dumb, inane point.

>I don't agree with that ideology so I deconstructed the fact that, no matter how detached the rhetoric, you were still making a statement against socialism.
I didn't see any deconstruction, I just saw a guy disagreeing with what I said.

>> No.1489968

>>1489957
*inevitably invoking capitalism

that is what i get for going into overtime

>> No.1489978

>>1489957
>deconstructing
Basically you were trying to mask a plainly anti-socialist statement behind some empty rhetoric and I called it out.
>ideological
can't be neutral on a moving train, but your attitude was trying to cover up the fact that you were being plainly ideological--basically you could have just said "huehuehue communism never works" and it would be equivalent to what you did say..i take more issue with the fact that you are trying to appear high-minded about all of this.

Anyway, the point is lost...you derailed my thread you cumguzzling cock in st. mary's crotch.

>> No.1489992

OP, ISO member here.

Ecology and Socialism by Chris Williams is great, Civic Agriculture by Thomas A Lyson, and anything by Bellamy Foster is a must read.

Also, try watching BrendanMCooney's youtube videos on Capital volumes and the LTOV.

>> No.1490013

>>1489992
Cool, definitely what I was looking for. How is the ISO going? I heard someone say something about factions (honestly the person I heard it from is kind of an idiot, so I'm asking). Do you think a revolutionary party is a necessity?

>> No.1490016

>>1489978
>Basically you were trying to mask a plainly anti-socialist statement behind some empty rhetoric and I called it out.
Barefaced assumption. Also has nothing to do with deconstruction.

also,
>empty rhetoric
wolololo, l2rhetoricality

>your attitude was trying to cover up the fact that you were being plainly ideological
Barefaced assumption. Again, besides the fact that you think I was trying to cover up my plainly ideological statements is in itself plainly ideological.

>basically you could have just said "huehuehue communism never works"
Communism could work, Communism could play, Communism could fuck your mother for all I care

>it would be equivalent to what you did say
not logically, and certainly not from the perspective of anyone who is not a narrow-minded chimp and can't understand where I'm coming from

>> No.1490024

>>1490013

I'm really too new to the history of the factions to make an actual call on the politics between them. However, I support the theory behind the ISO and vanguard parties in general, and feel most strongly that with the ISO I actually get shit done. The armchair revolutionaries are lazy and the only other party I've been exposed to, the league of the revolutionary proletariat, seemed weary of outsiders and too socially awkward to get anywhere.

Also, I cannot give enough praise to different David Harvey texts. The books I listed above are all ecological and environmental, but David Harvey's take on geography is beyond necessary. I'm working through "Spaces in Capital" right now.

>> No.1490032

>>1490016
Empty rhetoric is still rhetoric, yes, but still empty.
Yes I am being Ideological, but I am plain about it. My barefaced assumptions were actually stated insights into your posts, and I assume they are correct, because you didn't really negate or deny them. You are really getting on my nerves go play somewhere else.

>> No.1490040

>>1490032
i want to argue, what are you fussing about?

>> No.1490044

>>1490024
I really like Geography in the Marxist tradition--people like the Situationists especially...I like this newer idea in Marxism about how capitalism "encroaches on the commons" is that kind of what that geography book is about (just a stab in the dark)? I think vanguard parties are important--but I haven't found one that is functional enough to get behind--I was actually a member of the CPUSA for a while, but they let me down like crazy and I haven't joined up since. I have been pretty much acting autonomously since then and that has let me fall in with the anarchist crowd--although most of them are too busy deciding who is who's girlfriend to keep their shit together. Honestly, I wish there were a really effective party around--but then again I'm in north carolina and we don't have a lot of anything.

>> No.1490045

>>1490024

Also, OP, I've had a good kick recently on the Israel/Palestine issue. Went to a protest at UMASS Amherst back in December when they brought in an IDF soldier to promote the occupation.

Any suggestions on your end of marxist perspectives of that situation?

>> No.1490050

>>1490032
If only that technique worked

you're only making his day by bothering to attempt any form of discussion, he'll just keep reacting like a prick and ignoring any point you're trying to make

>> No.1490053

>>1490045
Ah cool, I used to live in Allston, MA so I'm familiar with that area. I actually went to Israel for like six months to work on the kibbutzim there (amazing, btw) and while I was there, I decided that I was pro-palestinian..I was amazed at how brashly racist Israelis were towards them (even Israelis that I loved, and even some Socialists)..I haven't read anything about it from the Marxist perspective but it is easily tied to imperialism and most of the other problems addressed by Marxism.

>> No.1490055

>>1490032
>Empty rhetoric is still rhetoric, yes, but still empty.
cool tautology bro, here is a better one for you;
rhetoric is neither empty nor full, rhetoric is rhetoric

>My barefaced assumptions were actually stated insights into your posts
>insight
all insights are assumptions etc

>I assume they are correct
That is about all you have been doing in this thread, assuming

>because you didn't really negate or deny them
>negate or deny
Truly no more ideological words have ever been spoken. You can tell this halfwitted boob never got past the fuckin' German Ideology.

>> No.1490058

>>1490044

If I'm correct, you're right on. Look up David Harvey's support of "The Right to the City", some info is on wikipedia.

As for North Carolina, if you have Facebook look up a comrade named Trish Kale. Shes from NC as well and a brilliant activist. Writes her own blog which I've found to be fairly well off. She may have info on activities/groups in the area if you mention you're a fellow red.

>> No.1490066

>>1490055
>didn't get past german ideology
nice appeal to the higher authority of academia, bro...try standing up for yourself
>rhetoric is just rhetoric
Yes but when I said yours was empty, i meant it was ineffective..and ineffective rhetoric is not actually rhetorical is it?
> assumptions
yes, I take liberties with whatever I care to in order to communicate my disdain for your positions--we aren't going to be judged by some Big Other in the end, so what is your point?

>> No.1490067

>>1490050
>he'll just keep reacting like a prick

>Marxism is to Capitalism what Existentialism is to Meaning.
>Nice pseudo-laconic statement.
Yeah, I'm really the prick for not spelling out what I mean every post, and I obviously put a gun to everyone's head so that they have to reply to me and feel indignant over what I've said. Truly this is my doing.

>> No.1490073

>>1490066
>nice appeal to the higher authority of academia, bro...try standing up for yourself
That's not an appeal, that is just me laughing at how much of a bumpkin you are

>Yes but when I said yours was empty, i meant it was ineffective..and ineffective rhetoric is not actually rhetorical is it?
Rhetoric is neither effective nor ineffective, rhetoric is rhetoric

>yes, I take liberties with whatever I care to in order to communicate my disdain for your positions--we aren't going to be judged by some Big Other in the end, so what is your point?
My point is that you're mistaking them for what I've said

>> No.1490083

>>1490067
call it false-cause if you will, but I would love to see you actually give evidence for a different reason this happens at least half of the time you 'contribute' to a thread (and one that doesn't consist of 'I am the best,' insisting you must be right or statues... all of which count as 'acting like a prick' in my book).

That being said, I know better than to actually attempt discussion with you, so this will be my only explanatory post, enjoy your attempt to tear it up, like with typos and such

>> No.1490089

>>1490058
That is really helpful of you, I appreciate it :)

>> No.1490092

>>1490089

No problem, man. We've got to stick together.

>> No.1490096 [DELETED] 

>>1490083
>give evidence for a different reason
There isn't a different reason, that is all it ever comes down to; someone gets angry over what I've said, they say x, y or z, I say a, b or c, and here we are. This has all simply followed from your inability to properly conduct yourself in responding to me by feeling the need to accuse me of pseudo-anything or to imply that I don't know exactly what I'm doing in any post I make or your inability to restrain yourself and move on to different posts.

>> No.1490097

>>1490073
You haven't actually achieved rhetoric, you've only attempted it...and failed. What you've said, I have interpreted, and I have said what I thought of it. I don't get why you think you're some kind of philosophy buff, it's a really weird arrogance.

>> No.1490110

>>1490097
you think of rhetoric as something to be achieved ? that's perverted

rhetoric is quite useless

thus, it is very important

>> No.1490115

>>1490110
Either you achieve rhetoric or you attempt it and fail. Simple as that.

>> No.1490120

>>1490115
no i don't think it's that complicated

rhetoric is not achieved but stumbled upon

>> No.1490124

>>1490083
>give evidence for a different reason
There isn't a different reason, that is all it ever comes down to; someone gets angry over what I've said, they say x, y or z, I say a, b or c, and here we are. This has all simply followed from your inability to properly conduct yourself in responding to me by feeling the need to accuse me of pseudo-anything or to imply that I don't know exactly what I'm doing in any post I make or your inability to restrain yourself and move on to different posts.

>>1490097
>You haven't actually achieved rhetoric, you've only attempted it...and failed
It's like I'm really a backwards greek.

>> No.1490131

>>1490120
Rhetoric is an acquired skill..not something incidental.

>> No.1490136

>>1490131
>Rhetoric is an acquired skill
LoL, you backwards monkey

>> No.1490139

>>1490136
You're the backwards one.

>> No.1490142
File: 38 KB, 400x260, 1275510230_7.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1490142

So guys rev up those wildcat strikes because I'm ready for some redistribution of wealth!
>mfw my thread about socialism

>> No.1490145

>>1490131
well now you're just being too formal

rhetoric is no skill

it is more of an emotion, so-to-speak

it comes in small floods

it can also be fabricated with some difficulty

but remember that this fabricated variant of the art is oftentimes entirely eloquent and charming

>> No.1490154

>>1490145
No rhetoric is what happens when people are convinced--if no one is convinced then you aren't being rhetorical...you are just attempting to be...but yeah I should have said "rhetoric can be a skill"

>> No.1490176

>>1490154
but one does not strive to convince others of anything with their rhetoric

if anything, proper usage of the thing will do nothing but augment the already tainted ramblings of an intelligent man