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/lit/ - Literature

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14891840 No.14891840 [Reply] [Original]

https://youtu.be/rrveGCGpwTk

>God says you shall not eat pork
>But now it's fine though!!!

Holy shit bros. This guy just refuted the New Testament's validity for me.

How can you be a Christian after having to admit such inconsistencies about Paul's character in your texts?

>> No.14891846

>apologetics
just read guenon lmao

>> No.14891885

He said that you shouldn't judge someone for it unless you also follow the commandment you are calling into question, specifically

>> No.14891978

>>14891846
This. The cute middle-eastern looking girl on the pic would immediately agree to become Guenon's third wife upon his refutation of the two onions-boy bugmen standing there.

>> No.14892047

>>14891840
>letting a Jew interpret what the NT means
Yikes

>> No.14892085

>>14891840
i can tell you are jewish

>> No.14892088

>>14891840
Read up on covenant theology.

>> No.14892192

>>14891846
Does Guenon explain why being a Muslim is better than being a Jew?

>> No.14892381

>>14892047
weren't they jewish though? i mean christians.

>> No.14892387

>>14892088
>covenant theology
I don't know much about this, but it sounds like some protestant garbage.

>> No.14892837

>>14892387
Why offer your opinion if you aren't familiar with the subject? Roman Catholics call it covenantal theology.

>> No.14893216

>>14892837
Enlightne me please. I was just using 4channel lingo to try and get people to give me the truth.

>> No.14893245

>>14892381
Paul? He was practically a Pagan.

>> No.14893259

>>14893245
how so? didn't he follow the jewish teaching of the time?

>> No.14893267

>>14892381
Many of them were yes, but most were romans and such, and the jews of the time constantly tried to stone and kill them

>>14893216
OT is the old convenant which was superseded by the new one in accordance with the prophecies. The old covenant was JOOOS only and was about being an autist and following the law, the new covenant is about avoiding sin and trusting and believing in Jesus and is available to all the nations (goyim). OT laws are divided into moral, legal and some other category, the autistic stuff like don't eat pig or wear mixed fabrics is superseded and paid for by Christ's sacrifice, the moral stuff like murder bad, being gay bad stays and is universal

>> No.14893275

>>14891840
Part of the reason Jesus came back was to show the Jews how ridiculous some of them were being. Because of what would happen when Yeshua died, some of the old customs that were practiced would become “obsolete”, so-to-speak.

When Paul had his vision about the unclean meats, it was meant to symbolize the induction of the Gentile into the blessings of heaven. In a way, the Jews lost some of their blessings, and it was given to the believing gentiles.

>> No.14893276

>>14893259
yes, at least before he became a Christian.

>> No.14893287

>>14893275
indeed, but beliving Jews are equal or superior to beliving goys

>> No.14893289

>>14893245
Paul was a pharisee my dude, he persecuted christians. You may be confused because he had citizenship of the roman empire, but that doesn't make him a pagan.

>> No.14893294

>>14893267
Why is it not eating pig "superceded" and "paid for" by Christ's sacrifice? How does that make any sense at all? I get the animal sacrifice part, but how are dietary restrictions (especially on disgusting ocean creatures like shrimp, etc.) at all relevant here? Seems like a huge cop-out by gentiles not willing to follow the restrictions.

>> No.14893297

>>14893267
>the autistic stuff like don't eat pig or wear mixed fabrics is superseded and paid for by Christ's sacrifice, the moral stuff like murder bad, being gay bad stays and is universal
Also, does it say anywhere _precisely_ which commandments are now superseded?

>> No.14893303

>>14893289
Paul didn't display any particular noteworthy knowledge of Jewish traditions yet had a understanding of Greek philosophy that rivalled many Platonists.

>> No.14893381

>>14892047
>letting a ""christian"" interpret what the OT says
retard

>> No.14893419

>>14891840
I believe Luke's the recorder of Peter's experience (or dream) in the Book of Acts (10). So far as the loosening of dietary restrictions are concerned this is what comes to mind aar.

>> No.14893438

>>14893297
Scripture makes it plain that certain rules were meant for kohen, certain rules were meant for Israelites, and certain principles apply to all of humanity. Christ's sacrifice resulted in the abolition of the kohen (it's not a coincidence that the Second Temple was destroyed shortly after Christ's ministry), and the Great Commission resulted in the abolition of Israel as the primary channel of God's grace in the world, which meant arbitrary laws designed to separate one people from another were no longer necessary. All that remained were universal principles, which would be true for everyone, Jew, Christian, Hindu, whatever, and which we must all obey.

>> No.14893461

>>14893438
Oh, and this ties into the covenants in that God made a series of covenants through certain individuals with his chosen people which led to the creation of Israel (and laws which applied to Israelites), and to the kohen (and laws which applied to the priesthood). When a new covenant was established through Christ with all of humanity, the laws of those old covenants became superfluous. The new covenant isn't focused on laws, which is why we didn't receive a new set of special laws (man's inability to follow the law is one of the reasons for Christ's mission anyways), but instead we received a series of epistles and such which apply Jesus' teachings to moral decision-making and such. Thus, our universal principles.

>> No.14893518

>>14893438
>>14893461
Thanks for the answer. It mostly makes sense to me if you can convince me that the laws were purely 'arbitrary'. Why would God send the Israelites, his chosen people tasked with being a beacon of light, supposedly random laws concerning which specific type of animal not to eat? Was there absolutely no spiritual reasoning behind why one should abstain from eating obviously disgusting sea-animals?

>> No.14893603

>>14891846

Here comes the christcuck with his retarded guenonposting.

>> No.14893690

>>14892381
Paul was a Jewish Pharisee before he converted, and ironically he was the one who separated early Christianity from Judaism the most

>> No.14893856

>>14893518
Some of the laws were meant to prohibit certain pagan practices which existed at the time (the prohibition against tattooing and scarification, for example). Other laws were more like reminders of God's authority; arbitrary, but meant to encourage believers to dwell on God's will. And some of the laws were beneficial, like honoring the Sabbath, but not exactly a universal principle (as Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath).
One other thing: think of the old covenant laws as contracts. Contracts don't exactly reflect a moral reality, but they are nevertheless enforceable (and enforced). With the new covenant, God kind of shredded these contracts (or, more accurately, God paid the penalty clause Himself), and said, "Here you go. Grace is free now if you want it."
I hope that makes sense.

>> No.14894731

>>14893303
>Paul didn't display any particular noteworthy knowledge of Jewish traditions
Aside from crazy amounts of theology.

>> No.14894745

>>14892047
it was written by jews my dude

>> No.14895060

>>14894731
Examples?

>> No.14895277

>>14893303
He's constantly quoting the old testament in a time when no one outside of Judea would be at all familiar with it.

>> No.14895946

>>14893297
Read Galatians. All that remains is the law of love through Jesus Christ. Some Catholics just like larping as Pharisees.

>> No.14896051

>>14895277
And failed at it miserably. He needed help from Rabbis

>> No.14896152

>>14893267
>in accordance with the prophecies
they were not fulfilled

>> No.14896165

>>14893690
It's the first recorded instance of shape shifting.
I wouldn't trust (((Saul of Tarsus))), especially my soul.

>> No.14896232

>>14892047
>>14892085
Not an argument /pol/cel

>> No.14896563

>>14892047
This all day long.

>> No.14897755

>>14896563
Facts don't care about feelings, faggot

>> No.14897818

>God says you shall not eat pork
He said that specifically to the Hebrews when He handed down the Law to them.
>But now it's fine though!!!
It was always fine for Gentiles, and it was only a customary law to separate the Hebrews from the surrounding Gentile cultures, a signifier that was no longer necessary when Christians superseded Hebrews. There's no difference between Hebrew and Gentile in Christ. Christ fulfilled the Law. Christians are not and have never been bound by the Old Testament dietary laws or any of the other customary laws. This matter was settled two thousand years ago and there are hundreds of thousands of words on this particular topic in the Church Fathers if you have any genuine interest in ecclesiastical history, but I don't think you do. There are dietary rules that Christians must follow but the prohibition against "unclean animals" isn't and has never been one of them. This matter is closed. Please don't bring it up again unless you educate yourself first.

>> No.14898165

>>14897818
what book do I start with learning about this?

>> No.14898340
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14898340

>>14893381
>letting MT readers read the Septaugint
Lel

>> No.14898354

>What is the new covenant
I'll tip this fedora for you OP.

>> No.14898366

>And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Paul had nothing to do with it.

>> No.14898373

>>14898354
God doesn't make change or make new covenants, I new convenant that clearly contradicts the old one would be mean that God changed his mind which is not possible. numbers 23:19

>> No.14898391

>>14898366
24+ hours ago:
>>14893419

>> No.14898495

>>14897755
And Jews don't care about facts faggot

>> No.14898530

>>14891840
Plenty of intelligent Christians have already answered these kinds of questions long ago. The Bible has different layers to it and some are more important than others. This should be common knowledge but it's not. Proper understanding of religious texts requires spirituality, contemplation, openness, purity of heart, desire for wisdom, ect.

>> No.14898550
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14898550

The not eating pork thing was because many of the non-yahweh supremacists of ancient Canaan were pig farmers. It was to prevent intermingling and has absolutely nothing to do with Christ.

>> No.14898577

>>14898530
> Plenty of intelligent Christians have already answered these kinds of questions long ago
no they didn't and all the answers they gave completely contradicts Jewish scriptures

>> No.14898602

even the Wise among the jews understood that the law is spiritual however they were still so highly autistic that they tried to follow it literally. Pigs are unclean according to the Bible because they do not chew the cud. They will nearly eat anything. It is a example of your common authoritarian spiritual Midwit. whatever it is they happened to our first understand by the Bible is what they accept as the truth. They do not try to chew on it or think about it for a while to properly understand it. That's why Jesus says do not cast your Pearls Before Swine. It's why evil spirits possessed a herd of pigs and then those pigs committed suicide by jumping off a cliff. all things in the Bible are spiritual expressions which show a right and a wrong way of spiritual life.

>> No.14898605
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14898605

So many pharisaic kabbalists in these threads who think that autistically doing the commandments earns them special good-boy spiritual points... These commandments were given specifically to distinguish God's people from the degenerated pagan world who would literally eat their own children to survive. The supposed "spiritual" meaning to the lesser commandments was retroactively retconned onto them by Christ-hating middle ages neoplatonic judeo-kabbalists.

>> No.14898622

All of reality can reflect deeper parts of reality. That's what contemplation is. the advantage for Bible Believers is that they have a common thing to contemplate.

>> No.14898677
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14898677

>>14891840
Bros, I finally admit that the Logos exists and is a person of the Triune Godhead who incarnated as Christ.

I cannot contend with the argumentation I have seen here on /lit/ after opening my eyes to it.

I cannot live with the retardation of atheism and all the other false religions (who all interestingly deny Christ by the way).

I was fooled by them.

Sorry for the posts I made mocking Christianity on here...

>> No.14898685

>>14891840
>What is the ceremonial law
Christians are not Jews, much to 4chan's dismay.

>listening to Tovia Springer
Yikes on bikes, he can't argue for shit. Not even trying to be edgy, Jews are shit at debate, they are basically on par with Muslims but they can confuse some people because they give long-winded arguments.

>> No.14898697

>>14898685
>Jews are shit at debate
I don't think I've actually seen a Jew honestly engage an intelligent Christian in debate.

>> No.14898710

>>14898685
>>14898697
>retards can't accept that their idol has been exposed
christian arguments boils down to "well, God didn't say that in his scriptures but still it could've happen, anything is possible in the body of christ, hallelujah!"

>> No.14898712

Imagine being convinced by Tovia Singer. He was totally BTFO by Michael Brown in the 90s and hasn’t recovered since.

>> No.14898722

>>14898697
Honestly, I've never seen one do it decently either. They can't debate for toffee.

>>14898710
Except it's not what it says.
>Jesus says it's not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean
>also says he has come to fulfil the law
>Rise Peter, kill and eat (not Paul here, huh?)


>2020
>people don't understand fulfil means they are not required
>non-Jews never had to follow kosher anyway
>doesn't know what Jesus said
>still thinks he is still intelligent
Cringe

>>14898712
Not seen. What happened?

>> No.14898738

>>14898722
the pork argument is just one aspect of the falsehood of christianity, the claim that the messiah is divine and God in the flesh, the claim that the messiah will be sacrificed for the world's sins, the claim of the plurality in God. all these things expose christianity as they have no place in the Hebrew bible.

>> No.14898766

>>14898738
>the pork argument is one aspect
One that has literally been defeated since Paul.

>>14898738
>the claim that the messiah is divine and God in the flesh,
>the claim that the messiah will be sacrificed for the world's sins,
Both fit in to one-another. A perfect sacrifice.
>the claim of the plurality in God
Basically argued against for millennia. David Wood and Sam Shamoun speak about this in some of their livestreams from time to time, actually, and cite some arguments from the Bible and also some scholars who point out that Jews would have had no problem with this
Basically: these arguments failed long ago

>they have no place in the Hebrew bible
I'm sure, within the last 2,000 years, people have been able to realize that they work fine. If only you had read some literature and arguments in favor of Christianity, you may know this.

>> No.14898772

>>14898766
Found two videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_93YTR7c_Tk (recommended)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqiuNj_iIFw (Sam is very wise but his livestreams are troublesome)

Enjoy

>> No.14898776

>>14891840
New Testament is the only Christian text. Old Testament is literally some kike nonsense and part of the kike religion. Nice try, Schlomo.

>> No.14898780

>>14894745
Ethnic Jews, but not religously Jewish.

>> No.14898799

>>14898766
> these arguments failed long ago
I see christians use this argument a lot. "oh they have already been refuted a long time ago" no they didn't, david wood or any other apologetic didn't provide sufficient evidence from the hebrew bible that proves the christian claim. all the christian arguments fall down to "oh dude, just have faith, just ignore the clear warnings that God had put, Jesus died for your sin!" which is funny, because God said that no one is responsible for others sins, every person is responsible for his own sins. no one will be sacrificed to redeem sin.

Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Jeremiah 31 29:30
In those days people will no longer say, ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge

>> No.14898810

>>14898799
Wrong on all counts.
And that is true, but remember that Jesus is divine, not a mere human, therefore, he is able to take on the sins willingly. This is why he is called "the lamb" even by John the Baptist.

>> No.14898824

>>14898810
>Retard completely ignores scriptures that says every person is accountable for their own sin and no one will be sacrificed or punished for others sins
>uses the "Jesus died for you!"
there are two possibilties
1.Jesus and his apostles are false prophets that clearly go against God's words
2. God decided to change his mind and go against his own laws to fit the jesus narratice. which is not possible.

see Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

>> No.14898827

>>14898824
the jesus narrative*

>> No.14898830

>>14893267
>OT laws are divided into moral, legal and some other category
The three categories are ceremonial law, civil law and universal/moral law.
You did a good job explaining though.
>>14893294
The earlier covenants between the Jews and God established the civil and ceremonial laws, and the moral law was given to them (note: not established).
The three types of laws were designed to try and bring the nation of Israel back into right relationship with God. But as we saw over time, no amount of sacrifice or dietary restrictions could save humans from their wicked ways.
So God established a new covenant through the sacrifice of His only begotten son. The new covenant did away with the past covenantal conditions. The only one that didn't change is the universal moral law, because that's the only category that isn't contingent on the Jewish people or the ancient kingdom of Israel.

>> No.14898838

>>14898824
>missing the point this poorly
The verses mean you cannot give your sins to another person.

There is a third possibility, which seems more likely: you don't know what you are talking about and you have been duped by some shitty Jewish debater

Again, Numbers 23:19, you have misunderstood once more. This says that God is not human and that that God does not lie. This does not say that God cannot incarnate on Earth.
Jesus is the sacrificial lamb; the perfect, eternal sacrifice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk9wGv2U6nU

Literally all of these have been destroyed long ago. You don't want them to be, though, because you dislike where it takes you.

>> No.14898868

Jesus was a lamb that was sacrificed because he wanted to reach his sheep which have no knowledge. popularity means a reduction in quality. Christianity condemned gnosticism because gnosticism condemned the simple ones. As you can see in today's world most people have a very simple view of Christianity. since they are children God will send the appropriate Angel to be set over them and govern them until they are grown up into the maturity of Christ. God does this with all of us. for some souls such and such angel will do well, for others a different kind of angel.

>> No.14898881

>>14898838
>The verses mean you cannot give your sins to another person.
no christoid
>"The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge"
Instead everyone will die for the own sins, those who sin will be punished, this clearly contradicts the Jesus sacrifice narrative.

> Numbers 23:19
Numbers says God doesn't change his mind but if he goes against his own words and makes Jesus pay for the world's sins, then he clearly went and changed his mind, which destroys the christian narrative.

>> No.14898897

>>14898881
>no christoid
Yes, faithlet

>>14898881
>Instead everyone will die for the own sins, those who sin will be punished, this clearly contradicts the Jesus sacrifice narrative.
Except the bit about sacrifices for sins, so basically the whole thing

>>14898881
>Numbers says God doesn't change his mind but if he goes against his own words and makes Jesus pay for the world's sins, then he clearly went and changed his mind, which destroys the christian narrative.
Which he didn't. See those videos I sent you.

Anyway, we're going to be repeating ourselves at this rate, and I have other things that I'm delaying. Maybe we'll run into each other again, in which case, I hope you see the videos by then.

>> No.14898918

>>14898897
>christoid doesn't have any arguments left except his vids made by an inbred protestant, so he rans away
lol. gtfo

>> No.14899072

>>14898550
>not eating pork
Trichinosis my friend. It was a very sensible proscription for the times especially for a nomadic people who didn't cook their meat thoroughly

>> No.14899275

A huge error in religions and in humanity in general is it they are very static. They assume that God has no more Revelations and that they themselves cannot grow. They wallow in the mire and think that this is the kingdom of God. It was they that frivolously spent their inheritance but they act as if God is mud. They set themselves up as god and like Mad Men they believe themselves to be more beautiful than Beauty itself. They reduce God to idols of Beast carved by the hands of men. The only God a person may know is what is inside of themselves. Thus theology is reduced to fighting over pigs and other foolish things. They have reduced themselves to emptiness and rejected God.

>> No.14899337

>>14898881
>those who sin will be punished
why was there such a lengthy amount of law concerning sin sacrifices? clearly there's a rule about redemption through blood, even in the old law.

>> No.14899368

>>14898881
also, i think the line "that he should change his mind" has some arguments around it, KJV has it as "repent". NIV has a lot of dubious word choices. plus, even in the old testament God does seemingly change his mind in certain respects. like the thing about punishing the grumblers in exodus with so much bird meat they'd eat until they die. he instead just killed them the minute they began to eat.

i think there's more than one kind of "changing your mind". God's will and goals never waver, but it seems like he does change his course of action- otherwise the garden would have been the end of it right? we were imperfect, violated his law and were sentenced to death. yet he brought a family of sinners up and made them prosper. i think you're basing your argument on a really thin semantic.

>> No.14899431

>>14898881
also:
>makes Jesus
Jesus did it willingly, which is key.
And another, earlier on in ezekial, the 18th chapter starts out by god saying "no more shall this proverb be used by israel, 'the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the childrens teeth are set on edge". so already God was overturning a previous judgment that sin and the nature of sin is hereditary. which means, if you're taking the NIV/ESV translation as the gold standard and a very literal look at "God doesn't change his mind" and interpreting it as "God cannot change his methods, rules etc" then you're already facing the problem of the old testament itself being invalid by your argument.

i have to believe that numbers 23:19 more means "God is not wrong, and is not subject to the flaws of the human mind, who are we to doubt" which is ironically exactly what you're doing by denying Christ.

>> No.14899938

itt: salty judeo larpers trying to discredit Christ
pathetic...

>> No.14901203

>>14891840
Just follow the gospels. Paul is not necessary to be a disciple of Jesus. You have your own brain. Surprising as it may be to some, our LORD probably wants us to use it.

>> No.14901277

>>14898918
More like went to bed but ok