/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14889301]

I was raised atheist/agnostic, never baptised or read a religious text but it's pretty obvious to me that there is some higher power out there in the universe. I think I want to be converted but I'm not sure in what direction I should go, or if I should even go in one, I just hate sitting on this agnostic fence where I live like I'm secular but can also believe in that which is infinite and unknowable. I feel like I'm not tethered to something I'm supposed to be and it becomes unbearable at times. I've had plenty of phenomenal interaction but that lead to me undergoing psychological assessment because of a suicide attempt (I had a psychotic delusion that "god wants me to kill myself"). Am I just lost? can reading a book really provide the necessary proof to make me religious, or will only experiences alter my perception.

[Anonymous No.14889311]

> I was raised atheist/agnostic, never baptised or read a religious text but it's pretty obvious to me that there is some higher power out there in the universe.

I was raised the same way and it isn't obvious to me in the slightest.

[Anonymous No.14889313]

>>14889301
In pretty much the exact same boat, any advice appreciated

[Anonymous No.14889320]

>>14889301
GIVE ME MY ROBE
PUT ON MY CROWN
I HAVE IMMORTAL LONGINGS IN ME

[Anonymous No.14889332]

Read Eliade and Jung

[Anonymous No.14889337]

>>14889311
Either go back or actually say something that's helpful. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.14889340]

>>14889337
Should've taken god's advice bro.

[Anonymous No.14889343]

God didn't create man, but man created god. There is no agnostic fence, only direct insight. Be careful what you wish for. Don't ask what to read, nobody's going to spoonfeed you true faith. There is no road ending up at a treshhold. Carefully observe al living things, work your way from there.

[Anonymous No.14889344]

Just take a shitton of psychedelics, bro

[Anonymous No.14889359]

There is a creator. But saying anything more than that is almost certainly going to be wrong and ill intentioned. Sadly humans haven't lived long enough and don't have the experience needed or simply don't possess the needed intellect or sences to really say much about the creator.

[Anonymous No.14889362]

>>14889301
Some really very good, concise advice in pic related from John Henry Newman. From a sermon titled "Truth hidden when not sought after."

Here is the full text: http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume8/sermon13.html

Newman is one of the great shining lights of Christian faith; and a kindly man, and a teacher and spiritual guide to many. He is your friend. He will help you. I allude to what the creed calls "the communion of saints."

>Act up to your light, though in the midst of difficulties, and you will be carried on, you do not know how far. Abraham obeyed the call and journeyed, not knowing whither he went; so we, if we follow the voice of God, shall be brought on step by step into a new world, of which before we had no idea. This is His gracious way with us: He gives, not all at once, but by measure and season, wisely.

[Anonymous No.14889370]

>>14889301
Pensées by Pascal is what converted me

[Anonymous No.14889402]

>>14889332
I'm familiar with Jung to a degree and Eliade seems right up my alley, any suggestions on introductory or comprehensive reads? translations if necessary?
>>14889340
you are big mate
>>14889343
There is a fence, I discovered there was through careful observation of my position in relation to it.
>>14889344
Already did, was fun, but nothing substantial arose from it unfortunately

[Anonymous No.14889408]

>>14889362
Thank you I will look into this.

[Anonymous No.14889413]

>>14889370
I'm familiar with the wager and that makes a lot of sense to me. I'll read up on this as well thank you

[Anonymous No.14889429]

>>14889402
are you on the spectrum?

[Anonymous No.14889438]

>>14889402
I started with A History of Religious Ideas. Don't know if that's the best place to start, but I found it very interesting, quite readable and thorough.

[Anonymous No.14889442]

>>14889413
You’re in for a treat. There is much more than the wager, and even the wager itself is likely not all the same as you imagine it to be. A nice read to go along with this is William James’ Will to Believe. It’s very short, I would recommend reading it after you read the section of the wager. I pray you will find God.

[Anonymous No.14889481]

>>14889429
Yes.
>>14889438
>>14889442
Thank you both, very nice of you to help.

[Anonymous No.14889590]

>>14889301
I was actually raised strict traditional Roman Catholic. I even went to Catholic school and everything but I had something of a departure from faith. I do main faith and not just Catholicism or Christianity. What I tried to deny but eventually couldn’t, was that I still felt a spiritual need and impulse toward something higher than the secular world, which is where it sounds like you are now. I set off on an investigation of sorts and I can tell you a short idea that’s helped me understand how to navigate that believe it or not originated from Guenon and the Traditionalist school. Think of religion as winding forest path up a mountain. There are many paths and all of them lead deeper into the forest and up the mountain. They start at different points but all converge on the same peak and thus, they share that in common. We can also think of a metaphor for how deep you go with Smokie the bear. At the outset Smokie just had a sign that says what you can do to prevent forest fires. You haven’t seen the fire but you decide to trust Smokie and take his teachings on faith. That’s the most initial stage of exoteric religion. Once you go deeper, you can be guided along the path by someone who’s already walked it and eventually you’ll get to a point where you see the signs of the fire with your own eyes, the smoke, the glow, etc. That’s initiatic knowledge. Some will have an even deeper spiritual need and choose to go deeper until the get to the point where they see the fire and experience directly. That’s the most esoteric level of religion where you’re experiencing the divine directly. In this way, religious traditions offer varying degrees of spiritual experience for people of varying spiritual needs. The first step is to identify the Smokie sign on the traditional path that seems viable to you and find a guide so you can start walking.

If you’re in the West, I would recommend you seek out an Orthodox or maybe Catholic church (Society of St. Pius X ones seem to be best) since those are really the only ones accessible to us even though they’re not particularly Traditional and speak to the priest there. You may also find information online. I’m particularly fond of James S. Cutsinger who is a professor of Theology and an Orthodox Christian with a Traditionalist perspective. He has videos on YouTube. Of course, you should also read your Bible. In all honesty, Islam would probably be a better choice in all honesty, but I fear that’s far less digestible for Westerners today.

Hopefully that helps.

[Anonymous No.14889625]

Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.14889639]

Honestly, Anon, try prayer. Even if you don't quite believe, try it anyway, what could it hurt? Just pray that you could know him better.Also. The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence was beneficial to me.

[Anonymous No.14889653]

>>14889590
How does one choose between cadolig or ordodogs

[Anonymous No.14889675]

I don't respect anyome who endorses religion because he's afraid of hell. Lool closely at your motivations.

[Anonymous No.14889707]

>>14889675
>I don't respect anyome who endorses religion because he's afraid of hell
Seems reasonable to me.

[Anonymous No.14889731]

>>14889301
Read ethica
Don’t convert to a religion with specific and often unhelpful dogma out of a sense of belonging because you think it will give you meaning and get you closer to the truth, it won’t.

[Anonymous No.14889852]

>>14889359
This. It's basically unknowable to any of us

[Anonymous No.14889880]

>>14889590
Thank you for the response, that forest analogy was very helpful and I appreciate the church suggestions, though I imagine I'll be going to one after I'm done with all this suggested reading.
>>14889625
I wouldn't know where to start or why but I'll research it and see if it's for me.
>>14889675
Never said I even believe in hell, just a higher power, you sound like you believe in it more. In fact you seem a little obsessed with it if your just bringing it up randomly, and I'd rather fear hell and avoid it than dwell on it like you, thanks.

[Anonymous No.14890303]

>>14889653
You would start by using their proper names to show the respect they deserve.

[Anonymous No.14890435]

>>14889590
Why is Islam better?

[Anonymous No.14890450]

>>14889880

[Anonymous No.14890500]

>>14890435
From what I can tell, Islam has managed to preserve its authentic teachings better than Christianity, Catholicism in particular has. Islam would still maybe be accessible to Westerners but I’m not sure which is why I kind of threw it in at the end there. That’s just my view.

[Anonymous No.14890572]

>>14889301
I was not raised atheist, not explicitly. I was simply not raised with the assumption that a god was there. When I figured out that people took the idea of god seriously, I was genuinely confused. I had though church was just some kind of club.

Once I started paying attention, the more I learned about it, the less respect I had for religion.

The more I learned about the world, the less necessary a god of any kind seemed to be.

We have a pretty solid understanding of the development of our universe all the way back to the Planc time, and at no point from then until now is a creator needed. Why should we assume that one is needed at all?

My advice to you is to seek actual, science-based psychological treatment. The feelings you describe having are something that an accredited psychiatrist can help you with, and they have a much better track record than religion.

[Anonymous No.14890832]

>>14890572
I went to my psychiatrist with my issues concerning the limitations of science, and how it basically lead to an unfulfilling and reductive worldview, they said try religion and see if that can help. It sounds like you just want less people to be religious because you aren't, which is exactly the type of dogmatic approach to anti-religiosity that I want to avoid.

[Anonymous No.14890838]

>>14890450
Thank you for this.

[Anonymous No.14890869]

>>14890832
u turned to belief as a cope. your worldview isn't supposed to fulfill you. if you want people to turn to religion just as a spiritual health thing you're not much of a believer either.

[Anonymous No.14890882]

>>14889301
Youtube Alan Watts
based on your post I'd be surprised if he didn't pique a little interest

[Anonymous No.14890972]

>>14890869
But aren't you as much of a believer as a religious person? What's wrong with believing in something if even you equate belief with healing? Are you against betterment? If you're trying to turn me away from the light, you aren't doing a particularly good job, but instead proving that a wholly scientific worldview would be antithetical to my development as a human being

[Anonymous No.14890974]

>>14890882
He's great and actually one of the reasons I decided to make this post

[Anonymous No.14890984]

>>14890972
It’s not that he doesn’t believe in betterment, but his psychology makes him believe that it is better to refrain from belief in religion, though he may not realize this. People like him have a strange fear of being wrong, so they prefer to opt out of belief entirely, though even this decision is itself born from the belief that it is better to do nothing.

[Anonymous No.14890993]

>>14890984
All I can really say to that is I'm absolutely embarrassed to have once thought like this

[Anonymous No.14891006]

>>14890974
The first thing that comes to mind is the grass is always greener. I was enveloped in Catholicism and can say it's not going to answer any questions better than Alan can, trust me. Trust me. Not even close. Religion is a whole lot of circular logic and is ultimately distilled into faith - believing in something not because of evidence, but in spite of it. Believing for beliefs sake. Believing because you believe.

If you want to pursue religion definitely go for it, but look through Christopher Hitchens' and others many debates on it, it's not as affable as you may think, in the 21st century it's the dead weight we have to drag along to move forward.

[Anonymous No.14891023]

>>14890993
humans are fundamentally concerned with happiness. Your beliefs and concern for truth is oriented around that nature. You can’t judge people for doing what they perceive to be good for them.

[Best books on Prehistory? No.14891101]

>>14889301
The search for the trascendent is a way of conducting your life. Organized religions won't give you what you are looking for. Don't convert to anyhing,
Read religious text and philosophy, but keep an open mind and avoid dogmatism to try and approach truth.
If you convert you will always feel deep down that it is all posturing, if the belief is not truly sincere you will live your life knowing it is a lie, without finding any reassurance.
You won't find God in Rome, Jerusalem or Mecca. But you will experience awe and joy there, looking at a beautiful sunset or at the starry night sky. That is much more profound and truthful than what you will find converting.

Read San Manuel Bueno Martir by Miguel de Unamuno, it is exactly about this topic.

[Anonymous No.14891105]

>>14891101
>If you convert you will always feel deep down that it is all posturing, if the belief is not truly sincere you will live your life knowing it is a lie, without finding any reassurance.
speak for yourself

[Anonymous No.14891304]

Pre-brahamic influence Buddhism

[Anonymous No.14891306]

>>14891105
Someone that was not raised in faith will never accept the more irrational dogmas of religion. Any faith you think you attain will just be posturing at best.
Once you reach certain rational conclusions then going back to more irrational understanding is impossible. Not a single educated person today can honestly believe that Zeus produces lightning.
Someone not raised in faith will not accept the misteries of the holy trinity or the transubstantation. I talk from experience.

[Anonymous No.14891323]

>>14891306
You are talking out of your ass.

You talk from experience but can you talk from the personal religious experiences of billions of people?

Someone not raised in faith can't accept the irrational dogmas of religion? There are countless people that convert to religions without being raised in religion. You can even see it germinating in the OP's post.

[Anonymous No.14891340]

>>14891306
most people with pride find it hard to believe

[Anonymous No.14891349]

>>14889301
if there is a higher power, monsieur, how do we account for its tolerance of blockheads like you?

[Anonymous No.14891387]

>>14891323
There is either irrationality or dishonestly involved in the zeal of the converse.
OP is not looking for conversion, you can clearly see it in his post. He searchs for trascendence and meaning, and converting may give him some of it, but at the expense of gravely reducing his world and submitting his freedom of thought.
The feeling of awe that someone would get from viewing the rain of rose petals in pentecost on the Pantheon of Agrippa he could get too from experiencing a procession towards the Ganges in Benares.

Spirituality is not the same as religion.
It is a trap many people fall into. Keep an open mind in the search for truth.

[Anonymous No.14891405]

>>14891387
I'm not arguing on the religious point. I'm arguing that it's unwise to speak for the entire human race. We can't speak for all the minds that have ever been.

[Anonymous No.14891407]

Karl Jaspers, Way to wisdom
René Girard, I see satan fall like lightning
Max Scheler, Ressentiment
Joseph Ratzinger, Introduction to Christianity
New Testament

[Anonymous No.14891411]

>>14891407
+Thomas a Kempis, The imagination of Christ

[Anonymous No.14891417]

>>14889337
based

[Anonymous No.14891427]

>>14891405
Obviously not. I talk from my experience and my viewpoint, which judging from his posts it is ver similar to OP's.
I wouldn't want anyone to make the same mistakes I made.
People here telling him to convert are talking from a sociological and political perspective that will surely not be fulfilling for him, just as it wasn't for me.

[Anonymous No.14891432]

>>14889301
just read the bible bro

[Anonymous No.14891444]

>>14891427

Fine, I'm certainly no lover of religion either, but to say:

>Someone that was not raised in faith will never accept the more irrational dogmas of religion.

Is unbelievably presumptuous and undermines your argument

[Anonymous No.14891497]

>>14889301
Sounds like you need friends, not god. Also HPMOR is probably the best thing I could recommend you at this point in your life.

[Anonymous No.14891515]

>>14891444
Do you think anyone can honestly believe that the cause of lightning is Zeus anger?
Can anyone today truly believe in transubstantiation?
It is not an allegory in catholicism but a catechism, just like the holy trinity.
Christianity has been refined from the more irrational beliefs, arguing for their allegorical nature. That is true to an extent, but there are some remanants that will push many people away.
The philosophical notion of god (there are many different ones but you get me) is not the same as the religious one.

[Anonymous No.14891523]

>>14889301
http://esotericawakening.com/what-is-reality-the-holofractal-universe

/thread

[Anonymous No.14891980]

>>14889301
not tha anyone cares but i think there's nothing to life, life has no meaning nor purpose, life is here just to be.
now, that doesn't mean you have to sit down and cry all day, because you dictate the purpose of your life, if you want to get into religion that's your desicion. just be sure of what you want befor doing anything stupid.

>also kys

[Anonymous No.14892143]

Just got back home from a late shift, thanks everyone for the replies.
>>14891023
This is true, though I'm more embarrassed for my former self than this poster, he's just trying to sell his thing and I can understand that.
>>14891101
Thanks for the recommendation, and I don't know how to put this but yeah, I'm just looking for a more concrete spirituality I guess, I dabbled with chaos magic, and I've read the tao te ching. but to myself I could just realise this was something within myself trying its hardest to be realised. I just think I have to do better to actually assess the potential for there to be a god, or gods, or reincarnation, etc. I don't even know what there is to take and what to give yet.
>>14891349
If a higher power exists, you are a part of it, so you can start by just being tolerant, understanding, helpful.
>>14891407
Thank you kindly
>>14891497
The fact that one of the first things that shows up when I look up HPMOR is its subreddit implies your the one that need friends, mate. Nevertheless thank you, I'll give it a look.
>>14891523
This looks good, thanks, I'll read it tomorrow cause I'm about to go to bed.
>>14891980
If only you could see what I could see. Even without books, online occultism, the input of others, or my own pondering and psychedelic drug intake, I was able to grasp that there was at the very least something more to all of this. Spirituality is more than just patternism, apophenia, and delusions of reference, it is a part of a far greater human experience available to us all.

[Anonymous No.14892193]

>>14890450
>>14890838
If you are interested in buddhism read something like The Making of Buddhist Modernism first. The very idea of laypeople reading a bunch of sources in translation and practicing meditation is a very modern, very western, and very protestant invention.

[Anonymous No.14892417]

>>14892143
>things that have subreddits are bad
I guess I should appreciate that you even looked it up

[Anonymous No.14892448]

>>14891006
I’m sorry you had a bad experience but this is a reductive and inaccurate description of Catholicism. Simply because you do not know nor have experienced deeper truths does not mean they do not exist. It is built on belief only at the most shallow level and houses deeper knowledge for those who feel a need to seek it.

[Anonymous No.14892461]

>>14891306
This is a standardized atheist talking point. You fail to grasp that it’s not and has never been about belief in an anthropomorphic sky daddy. Your example of Zeus tells as much. Not even ancient pagans viewed their gods in such a light.

I find it bit ironic that so many atheists and scientists want to approach reality as if it’s a sensible mechanist machine because never has there been a machine which didn’t have a creator.

[Anonymous No.14892489]

>>14891387
I can’t disagree with this but modern religion is the primary vehicle for spiritual development and metaphysical knowledge in today’s day and age. What people who are against religion fail to understand is that it’s not entirely about the religion. Traditional religions, if properly maintained, offer varying degrees of initiatic knowledge and experience for people with varying degrees of spiritual hunger and need for knowledge of the divine.

“As some lotus flowers grow in deep muddy waters, as others push up toward the surface of the water, yet others emerge from the water and stand up, free from the water”

[hungryman !!5BI0oSV9uvS No.14892491]

>>14889402
Start and practice to pray. Prayer is more important as a starting point than any book. Man & His Symbols by Jung is a good book for getting into Jungianism but I don’t think Jung is necessary to make sense of religion.

[Anonymous No.14892496]

>>14889413
>play into pascal's wager
>end up losing the wager of the other deities

[Anonymous No.14892507]

>>14889301
I was going to advise that you don't give up your freedom of thought to a religion, but given that you have attempted suicide, maybe you are the kind of person who needs to give up their freedom of thought and responsibility for action.

No religious book can provide you proof. If you want to be tethered, read Carl Sagen.

[Anonymous No.14892539]

>>14889301
Try reading some Chesterton, his book Orthodoxy is a good one. Also C.S. Lewis, try the Screwtape Letters to start. Also I reccomend the work of Dr. Edw. Dutton, he talks about Religion as an Evolutionary force, plus he is a funny autist.

[Anonymous No.14892545]

Anon, the hard part about this question is it’s a deeply complex and even personal topic and you’re looking to the masses of 4chan for answers. You will get many answers pulling you in all sorts of directions but at the end of the day, it will have to be a path you walk alone. That said, look to the old and the established for the best foundation.

[Anonymous No.14892617]

Is the anon who posted the attached pic still around? How's he doing?

[Anonymous No.14892737]

>>14892496
>t. hasn’t read Pensées