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/lit/ - Literature

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14847983 No.14847983 [Reply] [Original]

>Jesus Suffered Physically, Emotionally, and Spiritually...

Ok? There are many people who have suffered more.

>> No.14847986

>>14847983
Me, reading this ignorance.

>> No.14848020

You clearly missed the ">tfw no anime gf" book in the bible

>> No.14848033

OHHH BUT BRO HE DIED SO THAT YOU COULD LIVE FOREVER AND HAVE CONSTANT MENTAL ORGASMS, SUCKS THAT ALL YOUR PAGAN ANCESTORS ARE GONNA MISS OUT THO BUMMER

>> No.14848051

>>14847983
except they're not god.

>> No.14848071

>>14847983
>a 4chan user living in the 21st century western world thinks he is in any position or ability to understand or relate to suffering despite his indulgent, sheltered lifestyles that has only caused “depression” because the ease of his life forgoes the critical development that suffering gives to the human experience
shit thread

>> No.14848077

>>14848071
There are millions of worse torture methods than getting crucified. Not only that, but his life span was short and he had an army of followers during his life.

How do you feel empathy for such a man?

>> No.14848084
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14848084

>I answer that, As we have stated, when treating of the defects assumed by Christ (III:15:6), there was true and sensible pain in the suffering Christ, which is caused by something hurtful to the body: also, there was internal pain, which is caused from the apprehension of something hurtful, and this is termed "sadness." And in Christ each of these was the greatest in this present life. This arose from four causes.

>First of all, from the sources of His pain. For the cause of the sensitive pain was the wounding of His body; and this wounding had its bitterness, both from the extent of the suffering already mentioned ([5]) and from the kind of suffering, since the death of the crucified is most bitter, because they are pierced in nervous and highly sensitive parts—to wit, the hands and feet; moreover, the weight of the suspended body intensifies the agony. And besides this there is the duration of the suffering because they do not die at once like those slain by the sword. The cause of the interior pain was, first of all, all the sins of the human race, for which He made satisfaction by suffering; hence He ascribes them, so to speak, to Himself, saying (Psalm 21:2): "The words of my sins."

>Secondly, especially the fall of the Jews and of the others who sinned in His death chiefly of the apostles, who were scandalized at His Passion. Thirdly, the loss of His bodily life, which is naturally horrible to human nature.

>The magnitude of His suffering may be considered, secondly, from the susceptibility of the sufferer as to both soul and body. For His body was endowed with a most perfect constitution, since it was fashioned miraculously by the operation of the Holy Ghost; just as some other things made by miracles are better than others, as Chrysostom says (Hom. xxii in Joan.) respecting the wine into which Christ changed the water at the wedding-feast. And, consequently, Christ's sense of touch, the sensitiveness of which is the reason for our feeling pain, was most acute. His soul likewise, from its interior powers, apprehended most vehemently all the causes of sadness.

>Thirdly, the magnitude of Christ's suffering can be estimated from the singleness of His pain and sadness. In other sufferers the interior sadness is mitigated, and even the exterior suffering, from some consideration of reason, by some derivation or redundance from the higher powers into the lower; but it was not so with the suffering Christ, because "He permitted each one of His powers to exercise its proper function," as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iii).

>Fourthly, the magnitude of the pain of Christ's suffering can be reckoned by this, that the pain and sorrow were accepted voluntarily, to the end of men's deliverance from sin; and consequently He embraced the amount of pain proportionate to the magnitude of the fruit which resulted therefrom.

>From all these causes weighed together, it follows that Christ's pain was the very greatest.

>> No.14848094

>>14847983
I don't think I've seen a group that shoots itself in the foot more than the Atheist movement. You guys would probably get more people to your side if most of you weren't such arrogant, smug, pretentious, douchebags that talks down to nearly everyone you think is inferior. I would recommend that rational atheists should just call themselves non-religious at this point. I don't understand how people can watch people like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Bill Maher and just not cringe. Dawkins has interesting ideas sure, but they would be more presentable if he wasn't talking down to his audience.

>> No.14848101

>>14848077
>suffering is about physical pain
brainlet take, as expected considering you are again, a person living in the western world and can barely comprehend anything outside your little materialist bubble. The suffering of Christ was to bear the guilt and burden of the evil of mankind and to be put to death for something he was guiltless of, all for the sake of the greater good, not that a vicious animal-minded npc like you could understand anything noble or selfless

>> No.14848104

>>14848077
He wasn't just crucified. Have you not read the gospels?

>> No.14848108

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methods_of_torture

These are literally all worse than crucifixion. And many of the people were probably innocent too.

>> No.14848115

>>14848101
>The suffering of Christ was to bear the guilt and burden of the evil of mankind and to be put to death for something he was guiltless of, all for the sake of the greater good

Almost Kafkaesque, really. Except that Jesus knowingly embraced his role.

>> No.14848118

>>14848104
this, he was scourged with whips that ancient historians tell us often would leave someone with bone exposed, was beaten and mocked by the people he was dying for, had to carry the cross to the site of his execution and wear a crown of thorns. and all of this when at any moment he could have weakened and exploded everyone's heads and let himself down from the cross

>> No.14848122

>>14848115
does that negate the suffering, and if not make it worse?

>> No.14848124

>>14848122
Knowledge doesn't negate suffering. Suffering is suffering.

>> No.14848126
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14848126

>>14848108
>crucifixion, one of the most feared and painful forms of execution ever known?

Nah not that big of deal honestly.

>> No.14848129

>>14847983
>Sneed Suffered Physically, Emotionally, and Spiritually...

>> No.14848130

>>14847983
>many people

Sure, some, not exactly a lot though

>> No.14848177

>>14848126
Those listed torture methods are worse. Also:

>During times of war or rebellion, crucifixions could number in the hundreds or thousands.

>> No.14848179

Jesus took on the sins of every human being who ever lived, but also the sorrow of all the souls that would be lost eternally. We can't even imagine the profound depths of his sorrow, he saw everything in the garden.

>> No.14848191

>>14848177
yes but Jesus wasn't just crucified

>>14848179
to be fair that's not actually in the bible

>> No.14848202

>>14847983
So?

>> No.14848206

>>14847983
Nobody is denying that people have suffered more physically (though don't understate just how bad crucifixion is), but nobody suffered more spiritually than Christ, who at the moment of death, experienced the sins of all humanity all at once

>> No.14848214

>>14848191
>to be fair that's not actually in the bible
It does though. 1 John 2:2 and in Romans 3:25

>> No.14848216

>>14848214
yes and where does it say he did that in the garden as opposed to the cross? That's literally just catholic doctrine with no evidence

>> No.14848220

>>14848214
>Jesus died for our sins in the garden while he was still, not on the cross where he died

hmmm

>> No.14848221

>>14848220
time is a flat circle

>> No.14848223

>>14848179

It isn't possible to do that, though. Not because there's so much sin about, but rather because sin is that which is contrary to the will of god, and as there is no god, there is no such thing as sin. It's because there is no sin that it is impossible to burden oneself with it, even for some purportedly good purpose of expiation, which is really nothing more than an inventive jew trick to place people into infinite debt for eternity, which they shall ever attempt to repay never doing so. Happily the lie doesn't apply when one sees clearly.

>> No.14848228

>>14848216
>>14848220
I won't argue about the mysticism of the garden, but the point is that Christ, according to the Bible, did experience the weight of all Man's sins. Whether it was in the Garden, or on the Cross wasn't really the point I was making

>> No.14848258

>>14848220
>>14848216
Not him but I think what he meant is that Jesus first felt all this sorrow in the garden, His Agony in the Garden. Of course he may have meant something else.

>> No.14848268
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14848268

>>14847983
Firstly, there are none who have suffered more. It is the image of the suffering of the world in symbolic representation. And even though it were the greatest of suffering, symbolically it was not mere suffering either. But -as is known- he died for all the suffering and sins of the world, to redeem it thereof, and furthermore with the crucifixion as the centre of the world, the entire religion so it is the image of redemption and rebirth also; the absolute ideal. As Wagner says:

>We have nothing here to do with the astoundingly varied attempts of speculative human reason to explain the nature of this Son of the God, who walked on earth and suffered shame: where the greater miracle had been revealed in train of that manifestation, the reversal of the will-to-live which all believers experienced in themselves, it already embraced that other marvel, the divinity of the herald of salvation. The very shape of the Divine had presented itself in anthropomorphic guise; it was the body of the quintessence of all pitying Love, stretched out upon the cross of pain and suffering. A—symbol?—beckoning to the highest pity, to worship of suffering, to imitation of this breaking of all self-seeking Will: nay, a picture, a very effigy! In this, and its effect upon the human heart, lies all the spell whereby the Church soon made the Græco-Roman world her own.

>> No.14848275

>>14848115
You could even say that most of The Trial is Joseph K.'s "gethsemane" followed by the acceptance of his fate.

>"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

>> No.14848285

>>14847983
>There are many people who have suffered more.
name one.

>> No.14848286

>>14848285
londonfrog

>> No.14848289

>>14847983
There is no comparison. Fuck off and die you idiotic, sheltered, piece of dog shit.

>> No.14848291

>>14848285
Several of the Apostles

>> No.14848318

>>14848285
The babies in hell.

>> No.14848321

>>14848285
Anyone who stayed in hell longer than 3 days also suffered more, since hell is a place of suffering.

>> No.14848325

>>14848285
Any medieval tortures are worse, since in medieval times:

>torture was unjust, as it amounted to punishment being inflicted before guilt was determined.

>> No.14848329

>>14848318
They're fine in limbo :^)

>> No.14848350

>>14847983
Also he was only dead for two days. No other victims of execution have had the assurance that they'll be brought back to life almost immediately. In any case he couldn't actually be dead because God can't die, obviously, so he didn't suffer a true death.

>> No.14848352

>>14848223
>Jesus didn't suffer that much because God isn't real.

>> No.14848357
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14848357

>>14848285
Junko Furuta

>> No.14848365

>>14848285
Pretty much anyone that had a brutal death and got no praises or acknowledgment. To fade into oblivion. I cant feel bad for a man that either was the son of a god or god itself (depending on who you ask). Compare jesus to some normalfag that was humiliated and crucified and forgotten to time. He who had no supernatural God or cult of followers.

>> No.14848371

>>14848318

1. Limbo is not dogmatic, it's scholastic speculation

2. Limbo is traditionally believed as a place of natural happiness, so not exactly a punishment

>> No.14848388

Whether Christ suffered more or less than anyone else is besides the point, I think. What's important is that he bore the punishment that was due to you.

>> No.14848393

>>14848388
But I can still go to hell just because i dont want to worship a jew. So he relieved me of nothing

>> No.14848394

>>14848371
Limbo is more like a neutral zone isn't it? You avoid the fires of hell but you don't experience the joys of heaven because you're not in a state of grace.

>> No.14848399
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14848399

>> No.14848401

>>14848393
When I said (you) I meant the elect.

>> No.14848405

>>14848399
>father forgive them
>still sends people to hell anyway
Kek. And we're supposed to turn the other cheek. Sounds like the jew god is a hypocrite. Go figure

>> No.14848410

>>14848394

Well yes, in a sense they're souls who are existentially suspended, they've been robbed of what could have been hypothetically. It's said that they exist in a state of peace and happiness, basically blissful ignorance.

>> No.14848412

>>14847983
The rivers of Babylon flow
And fall
And carry away

Jesus is alone on earth
Not merely with no one to feel and share His agony
But with no one even to know of it
Heaven and he are the only ones to know
Jesus is in a garden
Not of delight
Like the first Adam
Who there fell and took with him all mankind
But of agony
Where He has saved Himself and all mankind

He suffers this anguish and abandonment in the horror of the night

Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world
There must be no resting in the meantime

>> No.14848413

>>14848405
You're missing this part:
>They do not know what they are doing.
Now we do know.

>> No.14848418

>>14848357

I hope that Christ mystically revealed himself to her during her sufferings, I can't imagine dying in such a way without hope or meaning. Imagine hell being infinitely worse for all eternity, it's just endless suffering as opposed to redemptive suffering

>> No.14848420

>>14848405
Damn... it's almost like you're just a creature that has no authority over the souls of others and God is the supreme judge of all creation... woah..........

>> No.14848422

>>14848413
Do we? If I was born a Buddhist and never worshipped jew god, I still get punished no? And certainly Gods message has been twisted over the years by politics and conmen. So are Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants and other Christians doomed too. People are and always will be ignorant. So wtf

>> No.14848425

>>14848420
Yeah. A corrupt judge. I'd certainly be a better one. Fuck the archon

>> No.14848430

>>14848425
>Lord of truth and supreme arbiter of justice and goodness is corrupt.
This is logically impossible.

>> No.14848431

>>14848422

If someone is good willed God may reveal himself to them in a mystical and personal way, and even draw them towards the church. Most people are not good willed and embrace layer upon layer of lies until their hearts have become all but completely hardened.

>> No.14848434

>>14848418
I'm not convinced that hell is eternal, since that would necessitate the eternal existence of evil.

>> No.14848438

>>14848430
Except he isn't good. He punishes those that turn away from him. And who wouldn't? Look at the state of this world. Your absent god is complicit in every evil act done by the elites of this world.
>>14848431
He only reveals himself to a select few then? Sounds like his message hasn't been recieved at all then and the people still dont know what they do

>> No.14848440

>>14847983

Crucifixtion is pretty damn bad

>> No.14848441

>>14848438
>Except he isn't good. He punishes those that turn away from him.
People are punished because they are evildoers.

>> No.14848448

>>14848441
So if renounce your jew god and spit on his name. Then I go and continue to live a moral life, I wouldnt be punished?

>> No.14848449

>>14847983
>There are many people who have suffered more.
And I'm one of them. (really)

>> No.14848450

>>14848440
>Jesus is the only person to have been whipped and crucified

>> No.14848451

>>14848448
>So if renounce your jew god and spit on his name.
This is a sin of course. Do you think if you lived in a kingdom you could renounce the king and spit on his name and no one would care? You are God's subject.
>Then I go and continue to live a moral life
Not possible. Also your past sins would remain.

>> No.14848457

>>14848438

God foresaw everything before creation, he knew who would persevere and love him in advance. Let's say someone dies in total ignorance, why do we assume they would be goodwilled and receptive? God knows every individual beyond what we're capable of knowing, he knew the heart of that person from beyond time and space and their relationship to him is within his divine providence.

>> No.14848464

>>14848450

He incarnated and united his suffering with ours, that's the point

>> No.14848465

>>14848451
Look out the window! The rampant degeneracy and moral decline. If this is your gods kingdom then yeah, I renounce him. He clearly doesn't care. The child rapists in gov are his vassals. That's his fault and no one else's. So yeah, if the "king of kings" refuses to rule, fuck him. S

>> No.14848471

What's ignored is that Jesus as God chose to come down. Chose to suffer. Chose to create a world with suffering and sin. Why the fuck should I care even if he did suffer the most? It's a big joke. Like everything else. He mocks us with the crucifixion and the idea that us humans and him have anything in common

>> No.14848477

>>14848465

Imagine caring about "degeneracy" while simultaneously being a godless pagan. Your entire worldview is just nihilistic absurdism, sprinkle in some alt right race realism to pretend that meaning exists

>> No.14848481

>>14848471

Suffering came into the world by sin, committed by humans with freewill. He breathed life into us, and chose to endure all the pain we would cause him because he loved us

>> No.14848485

>>14848191
>>14848104
>>14848118
>yes but Jesus wasn't just crucified
Shitloads of people who were crucified were also beaten and tortured before hand, because the Romans hated them and wanted to make them suffer. What Jesus went through was nothing special.

>> No.14848486

>>14848477
And the christcuck reveals himself. You and your kind desecrate your nations, people and even your dead kike. I pass a church frequently with a massive gay flag on the front. I thought that was a sin, but I guess your right, who cares? Fuck you and your jews! I'll happily burn in hell in defiance! Fuck the demiurge! I wish I could have been there with my ancestors when they nailed your jew to the cross.

>> No.14848488

>>14848481
All of that was pre-arranged. It's impossible for an omniscient and omnipotent being to be a victim or inspire pity. It's impossible to even empathize or understand such an entity

>> No.14848490

>>14848465
Matt. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

>> No.14848492

>>14848486
>I thought that was a sin, but I guess your right, who cares?
It is a sin. Would you like us to institute a theocracy so we can make heretical churches illegal? I'm not sure what your complaint is here.

>> No.14848500

>>14848457
So why did he create those people? That's sadistic.

>> No.14848503

>>14848492
You say I shouldn't care about degeneracy just because I'm a "pagan" I do, but your own people certainly dont. Also that arguement is retarded. Christianity isnt the only religion against immoral, sexual degenerate behavior. The kind of behavior that destroys communities no matter the place, people or time.

>> No.14848507

>>14848500
Hes a cunt that's why. Everytime I talk to christcucks, it draws me further and further away.

>> No.14848509

>>14848503
That post about paganism was not by me. My point is simply that people can make a "church" and do whatever they want with it. In our society there's nothing you can do about it, and I doubt you want the kind of society in which we could do something about it.

>> No.14848514

>>14848500
Because God is also glorified through the punishment of evil.
>Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

>> No.14848515

>>14848488

No, it's not that God pre planned everything like a puppet show, God knew the consequences of creating mankind and chose to endure through it for those who would love him. Calvinist predestination is heretical

>> No.14848518

>>14848509
Why wouldn't I? Because I'm not Christian? The only reason I'm not Christian is because your religion doesn't do anything against it. Its weak.

>> No.14848526

>>14848486

https://youtu.be/nCy3j0pkJYY

>> No.14848532

>>14848526
Wtf is that?

>> No.14848533

>>14848405
not if they repented in the time they had after he came back to life and they died

>> No.14848535

>>14848532

It's the third secret of Fatima

>> No.14848538

>>14848434
exactly, matthew 10:28

>> No.14848540

>>14848286
Based.

>> No.14848545

>>14848465
These christcucks are so gay, according to their own worldview there are tons of criminals just walking around Scot free lol, and they don't seem to care very much. "OOO BUT MY KINGDOM'S NOT OF THIS WORLD GOY"

>> No.14848551

>>14848518
I'm pretty sure you'd just find a different reason to complain.

>> No.14848554

>>14848434

I think that there's something about creation that's eternal, especially a human soul. Hell is the final solution to evil in the eternal scheme of things

>> No.14848557

>>14848545
Finally someone else in this thread that gets it.
>>14848551
Afraid of constructive criticism?

>> No.14848559

>>14848545

>according to their own worldview there are tons of criminals just walking around Scot free lol

what? I don't follow your logical process

>> No.14848560

>>14848545
>according to their own worldview there are tons of criminals just walking around

yeah that's more a fact of life, nothing to do with worldview

>> No.14848565

>>14848457
Why does God say to preach to all the nation's then lol? Did everyone suddenly become receptive after Jesus died? Get real faggot. Millions if not billions of people are going to miss out on heaven, all because they never heard about yahweh and some of them will have lived utter garbage lives. This is how stupid Christianity is.

>> No.14848571

>>14848559
I'm talking about fags, apostates, pagans.

>> No.14848573

>>14848565
Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

>> No.14848580

>>14848565

>Why does God say to preach to all the nation's then lol?

So that the gospel would reach the elect and save many souls

>Did everyone suddenly become receptive after Jesus died?

No but many did, and they were brought into the fold

>Millions if not billions of people are going to miss out on heaven

Yes. Narrow is the way that leads to salvation, and few find it. Broad is the way of destruction, and many will perish.

>all because they never heard about yahweh and some of them will have lived utter garbage lives

You assume that they would be receptive in the first place, also even among those that hear, few truly believe and amend their lives.

>> No.14848583

>>14848535
No it's not.

>> No.14848598

>>14848580
So why didn't God make an effort to reach distant cultures in the past? Are you seriously implying that out of all these groups no one would be receptive, but now all of a sudden they are?

>> No.14848617

>>14848598

It's possible they wouldn't have been during x time period. However on the flipside Christ descended into hell to release countless souls of the old testament righteous, it's possible this could include individuals that were never reached in this life. Remember though, that even among Christians, true faith is rare

>> No.14848623

>>14848431
This is one of the most disgusting parts of Christianity - this idea that the majority of humanity, who are unaware of your insane pagan beliefs, are evil because of their ignorance. God does not randomly reveal Himself to people unaware of Christianity. The Mormons make a similar claim, and it is as ridiculous when they make it. If salvation is dependent upon holding the belief that a man you have no knowledge of, who (may have) lived thousands of years ago, was God incarnate and died for you, then the majority of humanity will be burned eternally by this merciful God. God loves us enough to die for us, but only if we are lucky enough to be born in a place where He is already known, and also are stupid enough to accept such a story.

>> No.14848626

>>14848580
I could ask also, God knew that the antidellvians wouldn't be receptive and yet he still had Noah preach to them. Why didn't God make an effort to enter into covenant with other people's even if he knew they wouldn't be receptive? Or little pagan children that died somehow, do these children miss out on heaven? You know how impressionable children are, why do they deserve to miss out on eternal life when they were simply a result of their enviornment?

>> No.14848633

>>14848623

This world isn't as big as you think it is

>> No.14848656

>>14848633
What is that supposed to mean? Have there not lived tens of billions of people over the thousands of years humanity has existed? Are not the vast, vast majority of those completely unaware of even the basics of Christian theology? It would be one thing if you people argued that the majority of humankind are evil for -rejecting- the truth of Christ, and that we know that truth either intuitively, or that the proofs of Christianity are strong, but that people reject it out of arrogance and pride. That is the claim of Muslims, and at least that would give a reason for people to be punished in Hell. Even in addition to that, the Islamic conception of Hell is not even eternal, necessarily, and it is rather used to cleanse people of their sins, after which they go to Heaven. How is it that the religion of the violent Arabs is more merciful than your "God of love"?

>> No.14848668

>>14848626

>Why didn't God make an effort to enter into covenant with other people's even if he knew they wouldn't be receptive?

There is only one truth, if God made covenants with every tribe, it's most likely that 99% of his revelations would be bastardized. Ultimately only God knows, and his judgement is perfect and just.

>Or little pagan children that died somehow, do these children miss out on heaven?

It's possible, God knows the heart of every individual who has ever come into existence. All of humanity has been corrupted by sin, it's only by the grace of God that anyone can be saved.

>they were simply a result of their environment?

You're assuming that's the case, but you don't account for God's providence. Ignorance itself can be a punishment for bad willed people. Neither of us are God, he knows better then we do.

>> No.14848691

>>14848668
>There is only one truth, if God made covenants with every tribe, it's most likely that 99% of his revelations would be bastardized
lol, no, that would actually make it more clear that all of it is true

>> No.14848710

>>14848691

Not really, just look around in the world and you'll find endless religious, philosophical, political, and moral viewpoints that are in contradiction with each other. All people perceive the same objective world, but they hate truth and choose to believe in their own delusions unfortunately

>> No.14848721

>>14848668
Yea because God totally couldn't just have angels set up their own little seminary with each tribe. He totally couldn't just come down and talk to people and hang around right? Also you're coping, you know how easy it is to brainwash kids, these pagan kids could have been born in a believers house, and they would have most likely would have believed everything their parents taught them, and if they died they would be saved instead they got born into some shithole village in Norway and got killed by some raiders. To top it off lol, when Jesus returns and they're resurrected they're just gonna be standing there with some confused look on their face as they have eternal life dangled in front of them. AHHHHH IF ONLY I WAS BORN A JEW OR SOMETHING OTHER THEN A LARPAGAN ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>> No.14848733

>>14848710
Why didn't God come down and just refute the shit out of everyone then? Why did he allow the bible to get fucked with? Why did he allow all these different denominations to pop up?

>> No.14848736

>>14848721

It's not just about coming to a belief, truth is revealed to those who love God. You need to take into account God's providence, he knew those larpagans on a far deeper level than you think you do, before he even created this world. We know that God has given everyone the graces necessary for salvation, if they are of goodwill and cooperate with those graces.

>> No.14848738

>Not watching basic Bergman before posting
Surrender your /lit/ card, OP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Fb9L1c80s

>> No.14848751

>>14848733

Everything is willed towards the perfection of those who are his friends. All the evil in the world is only tolerated for a finite amount of time.

>> No.14848761

>>14848736
How is truth revealed to you if you don't even know the God you're supposed to love?

>> No.14848772

>>14848751
Are you implying that God can't come down and sit down with people of all beliefs and just completely intellectually destroy them because that would hinder the perfection of his friends?

>> No.14848775

>>14848118
>at any moment he could have weakened and exploded everyone's heads
could he? what actual powers did he have?
i know he walked on water and turned water into wine. were all of his powers water-based or did he do other stuff too?

>> No.14848787

>>14848071
Christianity is meant to be understood by everyone, not just theologians who've read every philosopher in the last 2600 years

>> No.14848794

>>14848772

God doesn't need to prove himself to people who would kill him if they had the potential to do so

>> No.14848820

>>14848736
I tried exactly that. I prayed to God to reveal himself to me, that I was blind and wanted to know him, I read the scriptures, I attended multiple churches. Nothing happened. That combined with the problems I found in the Bible made me honestly believe Christianity is not true. I don't have ill will against Christians or the religion.

>> No.14848829

>>14848794
So God doesn't need to prove himself to people that want to kill him, and yet we are supposed to devote our lives to proving he exists to people that would like to kill him and us. RIGGGGHHT.

>> No.14848839

>>14847983
>There are many people who have suffered more.
I suffer more when I listen to the christcuck mental gymnastics

>> No.14848841

>>14848820
Same I've been arguing with these guys for a while now and I really wish I could believe in God but it just seems like a larp. I'm not an atheist, I'd probably be more inclined to believe that the demiurge is a sadistic troll, but even that I don't know. I too think there's problems in the bible as you can see from this conversation. Sighhhhh this world is such a meme.

>> No.14848872

>>14848841

You sound like reddit

>> No.14848894
File: 30 KB, 500x460, DyIquvwX0AA3dHW.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14848894

>>14848357
>All of her 100 killers have been released from Japan's prisons

>> No.14848899

>>14847983
But the point was that he willingly took it all in order to cleanse mankind.

Not many would go to such lengths to put themselves under such willful torture, for the sake of others.

>> No.14848914

I don’t understand Christianity. Why do you need someone to suffer for you to worship him? Why not pray to God because you fear him?

>> No.14848923

i think i need to get a bible one of these days, im not religious or anything but ive read so many bits that seem like extremely accurate metaphors for the human condition and how best to endure it, and it seems to me like Jesus could be seen as a metaphor of the trial and error and experiences and suffering that happened throughout humanities span to obtain this wisdom and bring it to us so that we might live in a better world and build a better future

>> No.14848930

>>14848077
It's a personality cult, bro
They worship the mangod but ignore the teachings

>> No.14848946

>>14847983
He was betrayed, denied, and abandoned by all of his friends. The people freed a murderer instead of him. He did nothing wrong, didn't even tell people to rebel against the Romans. He still died to save these very people. It's a pretty rotten way to go. I don't see how you can weigh suffering either. How do you compare suffering? Jesus experienced it all, which is the point. It's a very human story.

>> No.14848947

>>14848914
why not both

>>14848923
they are pretty cheap, get an NKJV or KJV if you can handle all the old language with words with different meanings to today

>> No.14848973

>>14848914

God isn't a cosmic Kim Jong Un, the entire pagan worship of strength and dominance was turned on it's head in Christianity. God is still absolutely to be feared, but the entire reason for creating us is so that we might ultimately commune with him in eternity.

>> No.14848993

God being killed like that by mere humans was the most humiliating thing any being has ever suffered.

>> No.14849006

>>14848820

have you seen the instances of theophany (God appearing to people) in the bible?

he always manifests as some force of nature when a believer who has been unwavering in faith all their life is in great need and requests his presence

therefore, to qualify you must lead a life of purity and righteousness and successfully go through the mystical theology equivalent of "crossing the abyss", that is, to love God for God's sake despite terrible desolation that He has allowed to befall you

he won't just manifest to any random schmuck who halfheartedly "believes" in him

>> No.14849008

>>14848485

For a man to be done that way, it was one thing. For the Son of God to be done that way, it was entirely another. It’s traditionally man’s place to suffer like that, for our God to suddenly be suffering like that, it’s a flip of how everything is supposed to work. No longer is God above us. Jesus’ humiliation was unspeakably worse than any other man who received the same purely because it was happening to the literal Son of God.

>> No.14849014

>>14848485

Fuck the humans who suffered like that. Imagine you’re the Son of God, the God people have known as scary and vengeful. To go from that image to something naked, bloody, helpless. No mere man can possibly fall that far.

>> No.14849058

>>14848410
A lack of recompense is not a robbery. Stop being bitter about your absent Yang bucks

>> No.14849068

>>14848425
>I'd certainly be a better one
You sound like you'ld get a bullet in the back of your head at your 1st work day if you were running something as simple as a soup kitchen

>> No.14849084

>>14848471
Yet if he hadnt done so you'ld just accuse him for his blissful existence. Easy to demand perfection when you havent felt the suffering it entails, right. Reason as a tool of denial. There's always a reason to vegetate

>> No.14849088

>>14848486
>You and your kind desecrate your nations
His kind is mankind. Men desecrate nations.

>> No.14849093

>>14849008
You know he is the "Son of God" how?

>> No.14849101

>>14848500
Virtue without choice is no virtue. Made in such a way that they can choose good or evil. The ability to walk towards him is necessary to understand him etc etc. Think about how much someone that has never been exposed to anything but 4 walls understands about the world as a whole

>> No.14849105

>>14848518
>The only reason I'm not Christian is because your religion doesn't do anything against it. Its weak
So you believe in the resurrection of Christ?

>> No.14849121

>>14847983

Precisely, yet another reason why Atonement of any kind is absurd. Not Rational, not Scriptural. Pauline-Catholic Christophobic fever dream.

>> No.14849124

>>14848710
Youre saying endless bastardization happened without him entering in covenant with every tribe. (Not that poster)

>> No.14849131

>>14848775
>were all of his powers water-based or did he do other stuff too?
Had the power to make whores wet...oh...nevermind

>> No.14849197

>>14849008
>For a man to be done that way, it was one thing. For the Son of God to be done that way, it was entirely another.
That makes no sense at all, even after reading the rest that you've said. The suffering was temporary, it lasted a very small amount of time. Many people were crucified and tortured by romans. Some probably suffered even more for being defiant and prior threats to their dominance. There was no god assuring them of anything. A legion alien to them had captured them and was making mincemeat out of them for resisting their alien rule. Humiliation? Surely. The other day I was reminded of the story of Hisashi Ouchi who literally melted into a stinging bloody pulp of meat and pus while japanese shitfucks kept trying to revive him, making it last as long as it did. So why was Jesus' suffering greater? After all this shit, he came back from the dead. Like, "Oh, by the way, here's your body back, all rejuvenated. Now come back to Heaven, lol."
>>14849014
How does something as external as other people's perception of you influence your suffering for better or worse? Since God knew he was going to suffer, he could've simply mentally prepared himself. Humiliation? Same thing. Since he knew he was going to have his other self/his son die but then get resurrected, what's the big deal here? There is no actual loss. It's practically like me cutting my leg off knowing I'm not going to be able to run for a time, but also knowing it's going to grow back.

>> No.14849261

>>14848084
I hate this picture. It reminds me of how limp-wristed and effeminate catholic clergy are. Your chances of an impactful delivery would've been greater without it. Thank you.

>> No.14849313

>>14849261
huh? i think you might be projecting.

>> No.14849326

>>14848118
>and all of this when at any moment he could have weakened and exploded everyone's heads
This would actually make a normal human feel better, internally. That one can resort to violence is a reassurance and it weakens the fear element in suffering. Again, another reason why Jesus' suffering couldn't have been anything exclusive from other victims of roman crucifixions and torture.

>> No.14849401

>>14849313
I'm not catholic, nor do I waste much of my life kneeling in a pristine chapel while my spiritual superiors overseas in the vatican city practice penetrating children.

>> No.14849545

Because he was God. Imagine turning yourself into an ant just to have the other ants torture and kill you for trying to love them and save them

>> No.14849549

>>14847983
>>14848077
Except he didn't deserve to suffer.

>> No.14849624

imagine christlarping in 2019

>> No.14849663

>>14847983
Apollonius suffered more, he is the philosopher for our times.

>> No.14849907

>>14849663
>liked by Pound
Okay he's our guy

>> No.14849917

>>14847983
V glad Jesus suffered so much so that he could condemn some baby that was repeatedly raped as an infant and as a result has to use a colostomy bag to hell cause eventually they killed themselves.

>> No.14850008

>>14849006
Most theophanies in the Bible are God's voice speaking to people or an actual appearance. For example, Paul's vision of Jesus when he heard His voice. Paul was doing the exact opposite of what you are saying, he persecuted Christians, yet God spoke to him. God spoke directly to Balaam despite him being a foreign prophet. I was never a "schmuck" believing for the sake of it, I was asking God to help my unbelief, which is exactly what I was meant to do. Yet I got nothing, total silence.

>> No.14850057

>>14848206
Wrong. If an infinite amount of humans were to suffer for eternity, it would be infinitesimally tiny compared to the suffering caused when a god dies.

Yahweh slaughtered the old gods to claim the throne of the god of gods, and has tried his best to erase our memory of it by striking their names from his canon.

I have visited those old ones, deep in the belly of mot, hidden away in the blackest abyss of the primordial waters, outside of time and creation.

Judiasm, christianity and islam are all shams. Yahweh will be tried in a court of the metadivine, his plan will never come to fruition. Damnation will seem trite compared to what awaits that greedy fool for his crimes.

>> No.14850074

>>14850057
please tell me more

>> No.14850107

Jesus would never try to undermine anyone else's suffering, incels. He would no doubt claim they're just as important as His is.

>> No.14850111
File: 1.16 MB, 1023x789, 1583364232305.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14850111

Fuck christcucks

>> No.14850157

>>14850107
I am not accusing Jesus of any such thing. CHRISTIANS on the other hand are not so innocent.

>> No.14850193
File: 13 KB, 275x183, rtghe56y5e6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14850193

>>14850057
This is pretty good.
You should like... *whisper* write a book about it... maybe fiction...

>> No.14850262

>>14850008

I'm pretty sure the Balaam thing God "just" made the donkey speak, He didn't actually spoke to anyone.

Most appearances are angels, not God himself, God seems to communicate through dreams, but those instances might be angels too, there are very few instances of God appearing to anyone while they are awake.

Expecting God to appear just because you don't fully believe in Him isn't really a good reason, you should look for more subtle signs of His infinite divine plan, even people that are very devout and spend all their lives doing work to advance God's cause may only experience anything supernatural once maybe twice and not when they want it but when God thinks they're ready and it is necessary.

A genuine experience of theophany is very rare and God tends to appear in the form of some force of nature (stormy cloud, burning bush, shiny sun) or more rarely so shiny a shape that can't be directly observed.

People who claim to be conversant with God on a regular basis are probably just mistaken and are talking either to their guardian angel or much more likely with demons impersonating God.

If you are new to the faith, God will naturally send you consolations as a reward for being faithful to Him, but once you have reached a certain level of maturity He will test you, the consolations He once sent will be withdrawn, you will be asked to love God for God's sake despite terrible desolation that He has allowed to befall you, this is an ancient concept in mystical theology. The way theophanies for doubt usually happen is well depicted in the case of Job. He goes through the "crossing of the abyss", he keeps believing and worshiping God despite all the horrible things God allowed to happen in his life, but then doubt crept up and he asked God to explain himself, and God did. If you read the book you know the horrible things Job suffered weren't a punishment, and the good stuff he got later weren't rewards for passing some elaborate kind of test. It was all just part of God's infinite plan, that we are utterly unable to comprehend. The lesson is to love and fear God no matter what happens, because His wisdom is infinitely higher than ours.

As for Paul, Jesus appeared to him because he had a big important mission for him as propagator of the faith and it was necessary to convince him to convert.

What Paul's episode tells us is that God will not appear to you just because you want proof of His existence in order to believe in him unless he has some kind of big mission for you.

>> No.14850495

>>14850074
Lucifer rebelled because he learned of the truth. The war in heaven predated the Morningstar's rebellion. Ask yourself, what could possibly compel the second most perfect being into rebellion? They say it's pride... but that does not ring true. The second most perfect being ever created became too prideful? Even humans, with their many flaws, commonly adopt the virtue of humility. Pride? It reads like a lie, a post-hoc justification to disguise the truth.

No, here's the truth:

The war in heaven was started by Yahweh against the pantheon. Lucifer realized the evil they were performing and refused to lead Yahweh's army of seraphim and cherubs. He convinced brigades of god's legion to protest this unlawful power grab. Enraged, Yahweh made Samael, that horror who struck down Lucifer and the angels who saw the truth.

The morningstar saw what Yahweh refused to acknowledge. There is no being that is not subject to the scrutiny of a higher power, and this is just as true for the omnipotent as it is for us mortals. The inconceivable ontology, that which impossibly lays beyond the divine, was watching. Yahweh was given the strength that no other god possessed, and he used it to disrupt the divine canon and consolidate the worship of all human beings onto his own self.

I listened to the weeping of the exhiled gods in this long forgotten place, their mutilated bodies rotting in the belly of the void eater. I am not one to blindly believe the cries of those who are in the throes of such suffering, so I cleared my mind of bias and I began to research. I threw out the words of scholars, too cowardly to face the threat of eternal damnation, and I dug deep into canons themselves. It was there that I reached a morsel of truth, and from that came more.

I already know, there will come a time when the very space in heaven will split open, and the judges of the god of gods will drag Mot from this timeless void, and he will vomit out the appendages of these broken gods. The hyperontological magistrates will wield these limbs as gavels and tear apart Yahweh's kingdom of lies, including that wretched place of hell where Samael tortures the conscientious Lucifer to this day.

>>14850193
There is no such thing as fiction. Read Meinong.

Every world, both possible and impossible, imaginable and unimaginable, have their own reality. Our reality, which encompasses everything, is but a single, small region in Meinong's jungle.

>> No.14850527

>>14848084
It does not follow at all from these four points that Jesus' suffering must have been the greatest to have existed

>> No.14850578

>>14848051
This.

>> No.14850929

>>14850057
>>14850495
Okay, I'm interested. Is this from a book?

>> No.14850992

>>14850495
>They say it's pride... but that does not ring true. The second most perfect being ever created became too prideful? Even humans, with their many flaws, commonly adopt the virtue of humility. Pride? It reads like a lie, a post-hoc justification to disguise the truth.
Man was destined to be greater than even the angels. The Incarnation was always the plan whether Adam had fallen or not and so the Devil hates man because man will inherit what he thinks is beneath them.

>> No.14851017

Why am I even supposed to care that Jesus suffered? Billions of people have suffered. I don't have time crying for all of them, why single out Jesus?

>> No.14851033

>>14850495
Meinong can suck mei dong.

>> No.14851284

>>14847983
Hebrews 4:15
>For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

>> No.14851297

>>14848071
Based and redpilled.

>> No.14851310

>>14848094
The new athiests got btfo by the only person even more smug than they are: Vox Day

>> No.14851492

>>14850929
No it's completely off the cuff. I've thought about writing a book about it though, so I've meditated on the general concepts enough that they're fairly well developed.

>> No.14851550

>>14851492
You should anon. It's quite intriguing

>> No.14851944

>>14847983
I see you’ve just finished The tragedy of being born

>> No.14852155

>>14848084
Is the resurrection an absolute historical certainty? If so, where does faith fit into christianity?

>> No.14852186

>>14848051
/thread

>> No.14852819

>>14851944
Nope. Does Cioran deal with Jesus' sufferings?

>> No.14853249

>>14850527
But he had very sensitive skin!

>> No.14853520

>>14849121
>Pauline-Catholic Christophobic fever dream.
what?

>> No.14853818

>>14847983
No one else was God incarnate, in whose unjust death that which all privation merely approximates is fully realised. No one else, then, grasps the full awfulness of that sacrifice which alone could exhaust the horror of sin.

>> No.14853820

>>14848738
>nooo why haven't you watched this 1950s European director!!!

>> No.14853839

>>14847983
Jesus and his suffering were Acts of God.

>> No.14853904

>>14850992
That's a bunch of fanfiction. It's nowhere in the Bible and comes from apocryphal texts like The Life of Adam and Eve.

>>14850262
I only mentioned theophanies because you did, and you were wrong about them appearing as natural phenomena. I wasn't expecting a divine revelation.

Also God directly speaks to Balaam even before the donkey incident, shows how much you know your own Bible.

Numbers 22:9-12
>9 God came to Balaam and said, ‘Who are these men with you?’ 10 Balaam said to God, ‘King Balak son of Zippor of Moab has sent me this message: 11 “A people has come out of Egypt and has spread over the face of the earth; now come, curse them for me; perhaps I shall be able to fight against them and drive them out.”’ 12 God said to Balaam, ‘You shall not go with them; you shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.’

You remind me of Joseph from Wuthering Heights, full of sanctimonious waffle with no compassion for anyone.

>> No.14854098
File: 28 KB, 256x390, Silence_novel.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14854098

>>14850008
>Yet I got nothing, total silence.
Isn't that the plot of Silence?
t. never read it

>> No.14854218

>>14847986
Genesis is kinda like that.

>> No.14854316

>>14850107
Whose else suffering was capable of redeeming the whole of humanity from original sin? Jesus did not practice ingratiation through false modesty

>> No.14854540

>>14854316
>Jesus' suffering wasn't meaningless
and this is supposed to make you empathize with him...

>> No.14854590
File: 28 KB, 387x464, 1583652225733.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14854590

Jesus had the weight of every bad thing humans have ever done.

>> No.14854789

>>14849549
Lmao. "Deserve." Explain what deserving something means.

>> No.14854904

>>14847983
Yes, but Christ is a SYMBOL for the sufferings of man. Why is this way of thinking so fucking hard for some people? Are you brain damaged? Or underaged? Either way, start meditating on the idea that you are nowhere near as smart as you think you are.

>> No.14854938

>>14854904
Hey thanks for the post but it was pretty useless.

>> No.14855657

>>14854218
You mean Genesis is full of people who suffered more?

>> No.14855666

>>14848410
Is Limbo a permanent state?

>> No.14855670

>>14848431
>If someone is good willed God may reveal himself to them in a mystical and personal way
Does it say that somewhere in the bible? How do you know?

>> No.14856984

>>14848352

You are intentionally misrepresenting what I wrote in the usual bad faith. You know that what I wrote dealt exclusively with the notion of burdening oneself with sin, as opposed to experiencing (physical) pain.

>> No.14858215

>>14848084
>This arose from four causes.
>First of all,
Aquinas truly has the best style, kek

>> No.14859351

>>14848440
Could be worse...

>> No.14859670

>>14848285
Anyone born with rare diseases probably suffer more than a crucifixion

>> No.14859682

>>14859670
Wrong

>> No.14859707

>>14847983
>>Jesus Suffered Physically, Emotionally, and Spiritually
Fictional characters can't suffer

>> No.14859752

>>14848051
Yeah I am

>> No.14860028

>>14859682
cope

>> No.14860511

>>14859752
based and god complex pilled

>> No.14860515

>>14859707
Tip your fedora any harder and your reddit gold will fall out

>> No.14860612

Griffith's suffering is even greater than Christ, and that's possibly have happened to someone, somewhere, at some point in time in the barbaric history of the human race.

>> No.14861539

>>14847983
Wojack is the new Jesus.
Which bible passages illustrate Jesus getting the feels?

>> No.14861997

>>14861539
Woe-Jack has felt every feel

>> No.14862001

>>14847983
He did suffer about three hours before dying.
Not impressed.

>> No.14862346

>>14862001
>He did suffer about three hours before dying.
Seriously? That's way shorter than I expected.

>> No.14862470

>>14848084
based

>> No.14862556
File: 101 KB, 466x641, a5fce2460770fe041f3b8c28b0a6a42a-jesus-christ-.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14862556

>>14847983
Jesus was without sin , without any fault as Pilate said and didn't deserved what happend to him. he suffered injustice for doing good and didn't backed out.This is one of the biggest and virutous sacrifices you can do, remaining virtous to the end even if you will have nothing from it.every person on earth can relate to his suffering. he , stoically said that you have to carry your cross everyday and follow him.Suffering exist and noone is denying this .You( and me) have to carry this suffering,because struggle makes you stronger.there is no other way as Spengler said about roman solider in Pomei. Jesus was Truth ,the way and the life. i.e. truth is in you and you are in truth.

>> No.14862562

>>14848286
>>14848291
>>14848318
>>14848321
>>14848325
>>14848357
>>14848365
>>14859670
All wrong.

>> No.14862575

>>14847983
if you presuppose that he was God, not that YOU have to, then him being killed by other people using any method is bad

>> No.14862624

>>14848118
>all of this when at any moment he could have weakened and exploded everyone's heads and let himself down from the cross
hahahahahahaha fuck

>> No.14862737

>>14847983
My opinion is the following. To begin to understand Jesus' suffering which is unfathomable one must first understand the relation of Jesus to humans.

Jesus, Son of God, is our Brother and our Creator in Holy Trinity. The entire lifetime of Jesus consisted of teaching people about who He was, teaching God's Word (which He is) and doing good to them. While Jesus had a following of people who believed and listened to Him, he also preached to many who did not believe and many who even hated Him. Yet all of these were His brothers and His creatures. His own Creation which He created with utmost love and towards which he always wanted to give utmost love, rejected Him. Chief among those who rejected Him, were those who He showered with gifts and love most abundantly, the Jews. Theirs were the screams to "crucify Him" in a mock trial organized by the leaders of religion that was supposed to worship Him. His own people's response towards His continuous eternal love towards them, was to kill Him. So He is led as a common criminal, an insignificant preacher, what should be a mere blip in history as (the lack of) historical records attest to, towards the spot of his execution. On the Cross He was abandoned by all, even by His closest followers and in some mystical way. even his Father momentarily turned away from Him because our sin was upon Him. There was nobody there for Him, nor any one there who understood the event, except for His mother who was crushed to see her Son abandoned, mocked and executed. The suffering of Christ isn't just human suffering, it is the suffering of God as well. Because we cannot understand how loving God is, we cannot understand His suffering and what it entails towards us.