Ellul on Universal Salvation

[Anonymous No.14834092]

>Am I a pessimist? Not at all. I am convinced that the history of the human race, no matter how tragic, will ultimately lead to the Kingdom of God .

>I am convinced that all the works of humankind will be reintegrated in the work of God, and that each of us, no matter how sinful, will ultimately be saved. Salvation is universal because the love of God encompasses all.

>If God is God and if God is love, nothing is outside the love of God.

>A place like hell is thus inconceivable. The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is not one of salvation. Salvation is given by grace to everyone. Christians are simply those charged by God with a special mission. The meaning of being a Christian is not working at your own little salvation, but changing human history.

>It is inconceivable that the God who gives Himself in His Son to save us, should have created some people ordained to evil and damnation. There can only be one predestination to salvation. In and through Jesus Christ all people are predestined to be saved.

>Our free choice is ruled out in this regard. God wants free people, except in relation to this last and definitive decision. We are not free to decide and choose to be damned." "Being saved or lost does not depend on our own free decision. An explicit confession of Jesus Christ is not the condition for salvation. Salvation is always for everyone, by grace. All people are included in the grace of God. A theology of grace implies universal salvation."

Thoughts? Does Hell truly not exist?

[Anonymous No.14834334]

>>14834092
At the Mission I go to barely any of the staff can read.

[Anonymous No.14834340]

>>14834092
i love Ellul for his originality and independence of thought but the catholics will BTFO him for that hot take

[Anonymous No.14834355]

shitty take. i hope we're all saved tho but it's not like, something you can bet on. God owes us nothing.

[Anonymous No.14834368]

I like Ellul but at the same time hate him because he's a Christcuck and a Protestant at that. Sad, because if he didn't let himself become cucked by Christianity he could've seen monotheism as the high point of technique.

[Anonymous No.14834372]

>>14834092
it is pretty obvious that you cannot be saved if you do not want to accept your salvation. if you do not want to live with God, God cannot force you to live with him, you've got to actually say yes. i am open to the idea that after some period of time (or whatever unit for sequence there is in eternity) perhaps people who have rejected God will slowly come to their senses and be saved, but its not something i would bet on, certainly one hopes that is the case. an even lesser case can be made for fallen angels, as they knew God "face to face" and it seems their rejection is even more fixed in eternity.

[Anonymous No.14834388]

>>14834340
How?

[Anonymous No.14834456]

>>14834388
I don't know Catholic dogma that well but the last paragraph is especially a hot take.

1. There is no reason to believe that God doesn't want people to be free in all decisions.
2. "We are not free to decide and choose to be damned". I feel like this is an extremely shallow understanding of salvation or damnation. You choose to make choices in life. By the time you are "judged" it is more akin to an unveiling. You get the mirror in front of you and can probably tell where you belong (with the option of honest repentance possibly still being open even at that moment if we are optimistic). Damnation then isn't a mere decision, it is a series of decisions, a type of being-in-the-world that results in a *state* of damnation. The two would then be an overlap people who are in a state of damnation and do not want to repent are going to decide to go to their appropriate "place".
3. "An explicit confession of Jesus Christ is not the condition for salvation". This sounds downright heretic as all are sinners and one can be saved only through Jesus Christ's perfect sacrifice. However, since it is possible to know that some holy people have due to geographical or other reasons never heard of Jesus Christ that they might also be saved and at the moment of their death or immediately afterwards in some supernatural way get to know Christ and accept Him.

[Anonymous No.14834539]

>>14834456
Moreover based on these quotes Ellul to me seems to be in some form of discomfort in relation to the fact that in reality, Christianity is not an easy burden once one accepts his free will, in fact it is an incredibly large responsibility. It's smart to meditate on how many times "fear ot the Lord" is mentioned in the Bible and not have a caricature in your mind of God sending you to hell for not obeying him. Fear of the Lord is this understanding of the responsibility you have. You fear the Lord not because he's going to send you somewhere, but I think precisely the opposite, the reality is far more serious than any caricature of this process, pitchforks and all. You fear the Lord because you do not want to cause serious damage to yourself by misguided life that is in opposition to God and his Law which is Law that is fruitful for your being. The second thing I would study is the term "hardened heart". This did not seem clear to me until recently. This is one of the things you should really fear. You have people who have so hardened their heart that they cannot repent honestly, they know intellectually that they have done something wrong but spiritually, emotionally, empathetically, they cannot repent. It is like wanting to cry but no tears come out of your eyes. This is a dry person and I think it happens with accumulation of sin and wordliness. Which is why you should repent often and do penance, prayer and fasting, these type of things can keep you refreshened from the dulling effects of cumulative sin and worldly life that we all go through. You do not want to wake up one day wishing that you could repent but not having the ability to do so. And I do not think this is so mystical that it cannot be understood because the natural can point to the unseen, if you let plaque accumulate on your tooth, well do not be surprised if it gets pulled out once its too late. If you gorge on junkfood everyday, well do not be surprised to see that you are becoming fat, have your arteries clogged and suffer a stroke at some point. Don't harden yourself to the point where you will be unable to repent.

[Anonymous No.14834583]

>>14834092
Based

universalist Calvinist gang rise up

[Anonymous No.14834721]

>>14834456
>>14834539
Good post, anon. While I do agree with everything you have said so far, my main issue with all of this is eternal damnation. I was raised Catholic and working my way back into the church, mind you. But I cannot conceive how God would place anyone’s soul in the fire that never stops burning forever. There are people who deserve it no doubt. But mortal sin is a broad term. The God I believe in is a loving Father. One who is worried about his children. I cannot comprehend why would he send anyone to Hell - a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
I will never understand God’s ways completely. But this one is incredibly hard for me to comprehend, among one or two more things.
Of course, eternal damnation seems as problematic to me as child murderers being saved by grace alone.

I find your take on the “hardened heart” issue interesting. I never thought about it that way.

[Anonymous No.14834794]

>>14834092
I didn't know Ellul discussed theological issues; and the fact that I agree with him makes it even more awesome.

[Anonymous No.14834886]

ITT impractical philosophy. Go see a real testimonial. It will enlighten you.

[Anonymous No.14834926]

>>14834794
>I didn't know Ellul discussed theological issues
he was a theologian

[Anonymous No.14835695]

>>14834092
> I am convinced that the history of the human race, no matter how tragic, will ultimately lead to the Kingdom of God .
>Does Hell truly not exist?
>>It is inconceivable that the God who gives Himself in His Son to save us, should have created some people ordained to evil and damnation

Hell is being in the presence of God for those who hate and disdain him. For those who are humble and are friends of God then his presence will be like paradise, for those who are selfish and love their sin more than God his presence will, unfortunately, be hellish....they do it to themselves. God didn't build a torture chamber for them, but people have free-will and can choose to love God or love their sins.

>The meaning of being a Christian is not working at your own little salvation,
"In the same way continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. " Philipians 2:12

> A theology of grace implies universal salvation."
That's a faulty reduction of the Gospel and Christian message. Yes Grace, but God is also supreme and just, let's not pretend we know better than him and the legitimacy of hell.

[Anonymous No.14835725]

>>14834092
Schizo take. Imagine not being a pessimist. Infantile

[Anonymous No.14836607]

>>14835695
>Buy this rock. It keeps tigers away.

[Anonymous No.14836631]

>>14834092
>Christian is not working at your own little salvation, but changing human history.

Sounds like immanentized eschaton