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/lit/ - Literature

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1480400 No.1480400 [Reply] [Original]

So,

1984 is what's wrong with Soviet-style Communism

A Clockwork Orange is what's wrong with Social Democracy/Welfare Statism

and Brave New World is what's wrong with Capitalism?

>> No.1480423

i'd say, in theory, yes.

but in the real world almost everything in those books is represented in some small way

>> No.1480430

Brave New World is what is wrong with too much freedom of information and knowledge.

>> No.1480436

Brave New World represents an excellent future. The overwhelming majority of people alive were living happy lives. Only the freakish protagonist had a problem with it. To be perfectly honest, the Brave New World Version of the future is the absolute best thing that could happen to humanity

>> No.1480441

>>1480436

I fully agree. Everyone is happy with their place and role in society. That is what we need.

>> No.1480451

Brave New World has nothing to do with Capitalism or Freedom of Information. It's about how government can use pleasure to control its populace.

>> No.1480454

>>1480436
You know, almost everyone who I have talked to about Brave New World feels the same way, and frankly, I do too.
It isn't really even that bad for the protagonist, since he gets to go live on a nice little island for intellectuals! "John" got the short end of the stick, obviously, but that was really his own choice. If he had been a little less emo about it, he could've just asked Monde to send him off to the island too.

Yes, Brave New World is the place to be.

>> No.1480462

>>1480451
If you really think that, you missed 90% of the book.

I don't know if Freedom of Information has anything to do with it (although privacy and the lackthereof certainly does, if that is what was intended), but capitalism is one of the most important themes.

>> No.1480468
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1480468

>brave new world
>capitalist

>> No.1480470

>>1480451
The government isn't using pleasure to control people, it's giving people pleasure because that's what everyone is after. There is no end that the government is after beyond making sure people continue to live happy lives. What's wrong with that?

>> No.1480484

The basic idea behind A Clockwork Orange is that, to be good, a man must be given a choice between being good and evil. One cannot be forced to be good, or forced to be evil for that matter. So, yes, the message would be very much anti-socialism.

Brave New World is about consciousness and the virtue of being self-aware. In the story, the masses have given up this virtue and are now behaving as mindless, hedonistic animals without a desire to attain self-actualization. The root of the problem isn't that there's too much information available, it's that most people are unwilling to train themselves to judge information, taking away the good after navigating the sea of bad.

>> No.1480489

>>1480454
I disagree. It still has the same issues woth modern society, except the masses are artificially happy, so to speak.
I'd hate to die suddenly at 30 years old, forgotten about, and replaced by a carbon copy.

>> No.1480506

>>1480400
capitalism no. Consumerism yes. Really just consumption as you purchase everything by the graces of the government and have no real entrepreneurs. It's more like tuberculosis than capitalism
>>1480436
did you read this book? No one was happy. they were blandly content. And even that wasn't enough for people like John the guy who commits suicide, even though he took the drug, he still committed suicide.

>>1480454
creepy but your opinion. If you prefer being by yourself to being with other humans, that's your choice I guess

>> No.1480516

>>1480454
I'm pretty sure he did ask but was denied as the director wanted to continue the social experiment.

>> No.1480520

Animal farm was about what was wrong with communism.

1984 was about totalitarianism.

>> No.1480522

Infinite Jest is what's wrong with capitalism

>> No.1480547

>>1480516
Oh, in that case, I revise my statement to "His life didn't matter anyway, in comparison to the value of a world (almost) entirely free from true pain or conflict."


>>1480506
Hell yeah I prefer being by myself! "Hell is other people," remember.

>> No.1480559

>>1480547
free from social pain and social conflict but the point was that other people were also in internal turmoil. That's why John killed himself, that's why his girlfriend cries. That's why the judge or whatever he was admits to almost being sent to an island. Soma allows you to be controlled by what you see so you are essentially a zombie but does not control the mechanisms that cause you to think, meaning you are an aware zombie

>> No.1480567

>>1480559
Even if what you suggest is true (and I am certain that it is not universally true in the world of Brave New World-- what about the "Lower classes"? Are they even capable of feeling anything other than chemical emotions?), how is this worse than the world of today? People commit suicide here, people use drugs here, people die in wars here. Freedom isn't "guaranteed happiness" or anything like that.

>> No.1480568

American Psycho is what's wrong with capitalism.

>> No.1480570
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1480570

>>1480568

>> No.1480573

soma wasn't the control it was the suggestions. soma was the immediate relief, but the turmoil was caused through the thorough menal stimulation and personality suggestion. I always viewed soma as a psychedelic heroine that lacked an extreme withdrawl. everyone would go home to take it, as opposed to the hourly dosage in that dystopian Christian Bale movie. (sorry i forget the name)

>> No.1480578

>1984/communism

No, if you thought that, you don't know what communism is. Orwell was criticising mainly Soviet Russia - i.e. a totalitarian country under the guise of communism. If you read his essays he talks about the bad empires that will replace the - bad but not nearly as bad - British empire (Russia, China, poss. USA).

>A Clockwork Orange

Yeah, sort of. It's actually a mixture of Cold War influences. The rampant violence, sex and entertainment culture (everyone watching TV and violent movies) is strictly exaggerated America as Burgess perceived it at the time. The welfare state (Statemarket, idealism with criminals etc.) was a criticism of Soviet influences. It's a half-half.

>Brave New World

Yup, sure.

>Fahrenheit (for good measure)

PC gone mad.

>> No.1480582

>>1480567
that's the point. In our world you have all this crap and people commit murders suicides and other extremes. yet you also have these unfettered emotions like love, and sympathy which provide a counter to the bad. Most people though, slug through life like the people in Brave new world. the only difference is the drug allows them to be internally conflicted but have no external voice to the conflict. It's like being a prisoner caged in the hot sun with water in reach but something (soma) slaps his hand away when he reaches for it. All you've done is ruined the emotions, the people will still act out like they do at the end in BNW

>> No.1480687

Am I the only one who remembers that the government in Brave New World murdered people once they got to a certain age and made most of the population physically stunted and mentally retarded? It also ships people to islands for questioning the status quo. Anyone who wouldn't mind living in a world like that is most likely a drug addled entertainment junkie. Because that's all that government allowed people to be.

>> No.1480700

>>1480687
A lot of people argue that it's a good system because they ship people who question the status quo (that is, intellectuals) off to an island. They claim that if you are an intellectual, you basically get to be an intellectual, you just have to do it on an island. And so therefore it is awesome.

>> No.1480724

>>1480700

Protip: there probably is no island.

>>1480462
>but capitalism is one of the most important themes.

If you're still in this thread can you post some examples from the novel? I'm the person you were responding to. If Capitalism really is a theme in the book then I don't want to miss it and am interested in what you have to say.

>> No.1480736

Anyone who actually thinks that the existence in BNW is good then they either did not read the book or are severely retarded.

1984 would be preferable

I would rather be miserable and human than a content zombie.

>> No.1480745

>>1480700

Except for the parts about killing old people and turning the lower classes into little gremlins. The lower classes are always more populous than the higher classes, which means most of the people running around were genetically modified trolls whose sole purpose was to perform manual labor. And those who were lucky enough to be born as alphas still only led a vapid existence. Imagine living in a world populated only by circus freaks and the cast of Jersey Shore.

I'll pass.

>> No.1480760

>>1480724

There probably is an island. There would be no point mentioning it if there weren't an island. Besides, the island whodyacallit (haven't read the book in ages) chooses resembles the Falklands very well. M.M. - why didn't he choose the island again?

>> No.1480774

>>1480760

>There would be no point mentioning it if there weren't an island

I always viewed it as a sting operation. To be able to neutralize the "threat" (intellectuals) they could get them to peacefully go somewhere where they then die. No one would question their disappearance since they were supposed to go off to the island anyway. But then again there would have to be a group of people who's job it was to kill people, which goes against the whole society. I think it's a hole in the story, the question is how important is the hole.

>> No.1480809

>>1480774
I doubt there is an island, it exist because Alphas would not go to there execution quietly.

and there isn't necessarily a plot hole as the killing method was probably so sterilised and impersonal that all an omega has to do is push a button.

>> No.1480819

Only seen the movie for Clockwork Orange, was pretty fucking long ago.

I always thought it was about Pure Violence.

Kinda forgot pretty much everything else.

>> No.1480833

Brave New World is about being controlled by pleasure. You can maker the connection but it's more consumerist than capitalist in that spot. Whether its good or not, is the question, the people feel happy, but in reality they're just doped up slaves. Whether or not that's true happiness or deluded slavery is left to the reader.

>> No.1480889

>>1480819
The story was about a philosophical criminal.
There wasn't really much about the government being a "welfare state" but there was some pretty obvious criticism of the criminal justice system.
That said, I don't think many people in this thread have actually read A Clockwork Orange. It was partly about idealization and appeasement of the criminal element, but it was also about how both the left (the writer whose wife Alex rapes) and the right (the government that tries to show off the "reformed" Alex) try to play situations to their advantage that have nothing to do with them.
It was also supposedly Burgess' attempt to write from the perspective of a rapist after his pregnant wife had been gang-raped: he wanted to write about characters with a mindset similar to that of the rapists.

>> No.1480891

>>1480889

American Army rapists, you forget they were American rapists. Which is, you know, important considering the heavy Americanisation in the society.

>> No.1480946
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1480946

Brave New World's idea of ending rather than mending definitely reminds me of modern consumerism. Bought a cheap chinese made product? Breaks within a month of use? "BUY ANOTHER ONE," says society. Most people would rather just replace than repair, or even just replace something that could still be used. People today have a false sense of happiness from buying material possesions. In Brave New World, buying products doesn't keep them happy, their wonderdrug soma does, so the connection of happiness through consumerism in Brave New World is pretty iffy. Can't really think of their society as what's wrong with capitalism, besides their economy as the counterpoint to capitalism.

>> No.1482112

>>1480891
I didn't really pick up much on the Americanization thing?
Elaborate? Details from the text that hint at that?

>> No.1482171

>>1480889
>Implying that your wife being raped has nothing to do with you

>> No.1482194

>>1482171

Isn't he referring to the bad treatment of Alex by the government?

>> No.1482213

>>1482171
You haven't read the book.
The writer in the story takes in Alex as a guest convinced that Alex is a beleaguered young man downtrodden by society, and is convinced he can incorporate the situation into his political writing to make a point.

Then Alex immediately betrays the writer's idealistic liberal sentiments completely by raping the man's wife.

>> No.1482235

>>1482194
The government treats Alex fairly well. While he, a real criminal, is surrounded by petty crooks and small-time criminals, the small-time crooks and petty criminals are being constantly beaten and raped in their cells.
However, Alex, a sadistic rapist and murderer, gets out of it by sucking up to the authorities in the prison, and he above all others is picked by the government for remedial therapy, which consists of him having to do nothing more than be forced to take pills and watch movies.
Instead of treating him like the scum he is, the government wants to make him their posterboy for propaganda that shows how caring and efficient they are.

>> No.1482240

>>1480436
>sub-human idiot detected.

>> No.1482246

>>1482213
And what's the title of the work the man is writing?

>> No.1482257

>>1482246
Exactly, it's about Burgess' own disillusionment with liberal idealism based on his experience.

>> No.1482261

Ok Guys.

1984: Against Communism/ Totalitarianism
Brave New World: Against Consumer fetishism
Clockwork Orange: Against Welfare states + Faggotryism (Believing that everything is a social construct).

Come at me bros..

>> No.1482275

>>1482261
Wasn't Brave New World supposed to be about overdependence on psychiatric medications?

>> No.1482279

>>1482246

My point is, Alex has nothing to do with the man's politics AT FIRST.
What he does have to do with the man's politics is that he actively but unknowingly disproves them.

>> No.1482282

>>1482275
Just like Aspirin no?

>> No.1482285

>>1480454
>>1480441
>>1480436
the sheep as represented in huxley's novel.

all three books carry the themes of freedom and control.

1984 control through fear and subversion

brave new world control through indulgence and subversion

clockwork orange morality of state control versus free will

my own opinion anyways.

>> No.1482288

>>1482279
Can you rephrase that?

>> No.1482365

>>1480833

Agreed, in response to the consumerism.

I think you are all forgetting the fordism that everyone in the novel follows, which allows a society to produce exponential amounts of goods (while simultaneously constraining people to their caste), in addition to the constant message of complete happiness through consumerism and hedonism.