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/lit/ - Literature

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14744822 No.14744822 [Reply] [Original]

Is there something wrong in believing in Christ not as the son of God but as a man? As a role model, not a divine one, but a role model nonetheless.

Any literature for cultural christians?

>> No.14744945

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

>> No.14744988

If Jesus wasn’t the Son of God then he was literally some random homeless preacher who got crucified for lying. You’d be following the teachings of a lunatic

>> No.14745011

>>14744988
That’s quite an exaggeration, anon, since the Muslims can easily recognize in him a Prophet and Buddhists would probably recognize in him a Buddha.

>> No.14745037

>>14745011
They only do that by ignoring what he said according to the accounts closest to Him. Is that praising Jesus as man, or as conveniently agreeable invention?

>> No.14745056

>>14745011
His major claim was that he was the Jewish messiah. God’s son. Ergo, everything hinges upon that fact he’s either right, a liar, or a fucking lunatic

>> No.14745061

>>14745037
That’s not true. What Jesus said in the gospels is perfectly coherent with Islamic esotericism. Particularly with the Twelvers. I’m afraid I miss the point of your question.

>> No.14745078

>>14745056
The Messiah ≠ God’s Son

>> No.14745097

>>14745078
He also claimed to be God’s Son then, pardon my lack of understanding. The Jewish Messiah thing was always sort of confusing because the prophecies state what he might be and do but never what his whole thing actually was

>> No.14745121

>>14745097
Indeed. My point is that Jesus can be envisaged by two different perspectives; which he clearly is, by the two major religions of the world. One believes that he’s the Messiah, but a man. The other believes he’s the Messiah and The Son of God.

>> No.14745122

>>14744988
looks like C.S Lewis agrees with you.

>I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. [...] Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.

>> No.14745140

>>14745122
This could only come from a Christian. It’s clear that Jesus can be envisaged from different points of view, albeit be that only esoterically. The Gnostics sects inside Christianity are the proof, and, of course, the concept of the Divine Man that permeates all of the world religions is wholly compatible with Christ claims.

>> No.14745144

>>14745122
>CS Lewis
Don’t hurt my argument like this

>>14745121
But that’s the problem you can’t separate the man from the son of God stuff, that’s entwined with him. You can’t cherrypick the Messiah/Good Rabbi stuff without making him a liar in the process

>> No.14745154

>>14745144
What wrong with C.S Lewis?

>> No.14745163
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14745163

>>14745154
He wrote the Space Trilogy, which was shit

>> No.14745176

>>14745144
As I said, esoterically wise, Christ sayings are totally comprehended and absorbed by Islam.

>> No.14745187

>>14745122
This is a false dilemma.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Those words were put into his mouth in the latest and most unhistorical gospel, John. You don't find any of these claims in the earlier gospels.

>> No.14745188

>>14745176
Explain how, assume I’m a complete ignoramus upon the subject other than I know that they consider Jesus an older prophet like the rest. How do they get past his claims of divinity?

>> No.14745203

>>14745187
Matthew 16:15
Mark 8:29
Luke 9:20
“Who do you say I am?”
Mark 14:61-62

>> No.14745207

>>14745187
This. Even Paul never claims that Jesus was divine. It’s literally only John.

>> No.14745212

>>14745203
Messiah ≠ God

>> No.14745225

>>14745188
Read on Sufism and on the Twelvers doctrine. I’m on my phone right now, but if this post is still live tomorrow, I will explain in detail how and to what extent they are to absorb it. Perhaps to read on Jafar Al-Sadiq may be enough.

>> No.14745229

>>14745212
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16%3A13-19&version=NIV;KJV
>inb4 muh translations
If we’re talking about the Bible not being an accurate source than who’s to say anything in it is worth reading and what’s the fucking point of it all

>> No.14745233

>>14745225
I mean, fucking maybe. Never really been interested in Islamic tradition and Muslim scholars

>> No.14745241

>>14745207
This, too, is a false dilema. The question isn’t if Christ is “divine”- for, understood correctly, the Prophets were divine, and so is every Saintly Man that has “seen” God- but I’d he’s the Son of God qua Son of God; the Logos Himself.

>> No.14745248

>>14745241
if* he’s

>> No.14745255

>>14745241
Oh, so the bar is even higher than the one already not met?

>> No.14745260

>>14745255
I’m not the the anon that you were answering, friend.

>> No.14745267

>>14745241
No one in the NT but John even has an idea of the Logos or identifies the Son of God with that.

>> No.14745284

>>14745154
He's a layman apollogist. He has pretty decent daily advice for the common christian, but theologically and philosophically he isnt that rigorous. Which he fully admits, so its not a knock against the guy, but its more words to live by than words to strictly argue by.

>> No.14745303

>>14745241
Christ status is not so clear in the Gospels as modern, dogmatic Christians expose it; such a complex and beautiful text can but give way to a myriad of interpretations.
One of them is the Nestorians interpretation: To this >>14745241 they would answer: no; he’s a man who was elevated into divine nature by hypostatic union with the Son of God qua Son of God, which is not the person of the Christ. Hence, they avoided saying that “God suffered on the Cross” and would be vehemently against calling Mary the Mother of God.

>> No.14745310

>>14745140
#notallchristians you neckbeard retard

>> No.14745332

>>14745310
What do you mean, friend? No need to be rude, dear.
>>14745303
To complement this, it’s a fascinating subject, but if Christians staunchly assevere, like C.S Lewis, that Christ claiming to be the Son of God can and must mean that he’s the Eternal Logos, Son of God qua Son of God and consubstancial with the Father, they are just being rude or dishonest.

>> No.14745375

>>14745187
>>14745207
so if Christ did not claim to be God then why did the pharisees have him crucified for blasphemy
I don't think they would really crucify him just for claiming to be the messiah like a bunch of other people in those days as the skeptics say, but claiming to be God was a pretty big deal for the pharisees to crucify him
i mean really, the whole "he didnt claim to be God" argument is so bad. like i know what you're thinking, he didn't say the words "I am God" outright so it means he didnt claim to be God, its so retarded, its like the whole "well Jesus never said anything about gay people so that means christians should be okay with homos!"

>> No.14745391

>>14745375
He was crucified by the Romans for claiming to be the messiah, i.e. a king.

The blame shifted from the Romans to Jews as the Jesus movement increasingly became primarily gentile.

>> No.14745409 [DELETED] 

>>14745375
An Islamic mystic, Al-Hallaj, claimed to be God and was crucified for it. Now, must that mean that he’s consubstancial with God? Or, if not, that he’s the God Himself? Again, diverse person from all the different continents of the world have claimed identity with God.
The question is not about Jesus’ divinity, but if the Logos personality is Jesus.

>> No.14745420

>>14745375
>>14745375 #
An Islamic mystic, Al-Hallaj, claimed to be God and was executed for it. Now, must that mean that he’s consubstancial with God? Or, if not, that he’s the God Himself? Again, diverse person from all the different continents of the world have claimed identity with God.
The question is not about Jesus’ “divinity”, but if the Logos personality is Jesus. And, still, the assumption that the Logos has a personality is still a big assertion.

>> No.14745443

>>14744822
Its called islam

>> No.14745451

>>14744822
Yes. If he was not literally God then he was just mentally ill.

>> No.14745465

>>14745391
did you even read the gospels
the pharisees wanted him to be crucified but the romans thought he wasnt worth it but they eventually did it anyway to prevent a jewish revolt
the romans literally did not care about Jesus, what they worried about was jews throwing a huge fit
why are you being a historical revisionist?

>> No.14745470

>>14745443
Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet. You're looking for Judaism

>> No.14745482

>>14745470
But Jews curse him. I don’t think that’s what OP is looking for....

>> No.14745490

>>14745451
Remember when Jesus was praying to God? So ... He was praying to himself?

>> No.14745492
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14745492

>>14744822
OP. Stay away from materialism.

>> No.14745494

>>14745490
Trinity bullshit is weird, he’s both God and is not God at the same time, the aspect of himself was asking if dying an excruciating death was really the best choice of action and to give him the strength to do it if it was

>> No.14745496

>>14745494
Yeah daily reminder Jesus never spoke of the Trinity and that the Trinity was invented literally decades after his passing

>> No.14745498

>>14745284
Anscombe gave his trilemma some credit, despite knocking a particular expression of it. Layman, sure, but it was seen as a credible argument. In general, though, he definitely wasn't an apologist.
>>14745391
That's basically discarding the gospels entirely.

>>14745420
No, but it does mean he wasn't executed by the Romans for being a king. The point isn't that Jesus claiming He was God means that He was, but that claiming to be God is an essential part of His teachings.

>> No.14745505

>>14745496
Jesus didn’t really explain shit but he does refer to both God and the Holy Spirit so the entities do exist as some relation. Trinity makes the most sense

>> No.14745513

>>14745505
1 will never equal 3. There could only be one independent God. 3 is not independent (relies on the other to exist, therefore not omnipotent)

>> No.14745614

>>14745513
Aspects

>> No.14745619
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14745619

>>14744822
>all these clueless pseuds who don't understand the Jewish concept of sonship

In Jewish culture, when a father sent his son to do an errand or to represent him at some gathering in some capacity, it was considered as though the father were sending himself. The relation between Jesus and the Father is the same. The Father (who is God) is sending the Son, who is a distinct person yet also the same as the Father, hence God. So enough of this "MUH GOSPELS NEVER SAID JESUS WAS GOD" crap.

>> No.14745627

>>14745614
Explain

>> No.14745633

>>14745078
The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom
2 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

7 “I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

>> No.14745637

>>14745627
The concept of aspects relate to the idea of the same being having different parts to the same whole.

>> No.14745638

>>14745619
You faggot if you're going to mesh Jewish customs then you'd be absolutely moronic to avoid the OT when it explicitly says multiple times there is only 1 God. Jesus worship is analogous to idolatry

>> No.14745648

>>14745637
>Part
God has no "parts". Jesus being 100% God, the holy spirit 100% God, and then God being 100% means God is 300%? Impossible. Jesus being 33% and so forth? Impossible, they wouldn't be omnipotent

>> No.14745663

>>14745078
>>14745633
>The Messiah ≠ God’s Son
12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

>> No.14745671

Arianism

>> No.14745682

>>14745078
>>14745633
>>14745663

Christianity.com

What do you want to know?

Bible Bible Search Books of the Bible Daniel Daniel 7
Daniel 7

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Daniel 7 New King James Version
<< Daniel 6 | Daniel 7 | Daniel 8 >>
Daniel's Dream of the Four Beasts
7 1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts. 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5 And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: 'Arise, devour much flesh!' 6 After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; 10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened. 11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. 13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

>> No.14745702

>>14745505
>Trinity makes the most sense
The only reason the Trinity exists is because Christians wanted to worship multiple gods and still be monotheists.

>> No.14745705

>>14745496
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

>> No.14745713

>>14744822
There IS philosophy and culture in practically all religions. If secular """"""buddhists""""" can do it i don't see why a christaboo couldn't. Just don't expect to be taken seriously by Christians just like atheist buddhists aren't taken seriously by Buddhists.
>>14745122
>NOOO IT'S EITHER THIS OR THAT YOU CAN'T COME TO OTHER CONCLUSIONS CAUSE I SAY SO!!!
one oft he biggest hacks of the 20th century.
C.S. Lewis more like Cock Sucker Lewis lmao

>> No.14745723

>>14744822
The Thomas Jefferson Bible

>> No.14745726

>>14745638
trinitarianism is still monotheism

>> No.14745757

>>14745726
no one:
literally no one:
not a single soul:
christians: the trinity is monotheism

>> No.14745853

>>14745757
>facebook memes

>> No.14745856

>>14745723
>edits out all the miracles

>> No.14745858

>>14745465
he's probably a jew

>> No.14745863

>>14744822
Jesus went around doing miracles and not even the Pharisees denied the miracles were real, they just said he could only do them because he was the devil or the devil was helping him

>> No.14745886

>>14745648
> a subject has no parts it's just a subject

how do you read books and also believe this

>> No.14745905

>>14745391
That's just absurd. You can say the gospels are ahistorical as much as you want, but let's look at motive. Who would want to kill a pauper preacher? The religious order who he directs his words against, who he calls liar and serpents? Or the overburdened military whose first and only concern is maintaining Roman rule. Christs band of peasants and slaves was of little threat to anyone but the pharisees

>> No.14745945

>>14744822
I'm not going to help you commit idolatry, no. Christ is Christ not what you want him to be.

>> No.14745958

Something like the Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy should be up your alley. He more or less thought the same, he thought of Him as a great teacher who was worshipped by a corrupt Church.
Though I have to say to not be led astray, He's not just a great teacher, He is God.
Also avoid the term "cultural Christian", today it just means your immediate surroundings are Christian while you're not, despite labeling yourself as such, call yourself a Christian simply.

>> No.14745972

>>14745011
Buddhist and Hindus would respect just about any prophet. Also, the Muslim Jesus is quite different from the Christian Jesus because (a) he didn’t get crucified and (b) he is not the son of God. To me that’s the only thing why I would listen to some random guy who got crucified 2 millennia ago: because he was the son of God and came to earth to get killed.

>> No.14746011

I don't believe in supernatural stuff, so this is how I see it. There have been lots of great religious leaders, like Rabbi Hillel, Baal Shem Tov or that guy Schneersohn from Brooklyn. But most of them either did not see the big picture of what religion is about (IIRC Hillel came up with a loophole around the Year of Jubilee), or they didn't have the chutzpah to come right out and say "I am the son of God", and grab the authority they needed to impress the plebs and change the world (IIRC Schneersohn used to specifically deny that he was the Messiah). Jesus was the son of God because he walked the walk AND talked the talk.

So yeah, basically the same argument as C.S. Lewis, except that I think of it in terms of ideology, and not magical powers or some link with the creator of the universe.

I always shill Rumi and Lao-Tzu because I think they realized the same truths that Jesus did. Tao Te Ching is almost identical to the beatitudes in parts. They all worded things a little differently, because they were from different cultures that needed to be taught in different ways. But they're all worth a read.

>> No.14746056

>>14744822
>Is there something wrong in believing in Christ not as the son of God but as a man? As a role model, not a divine one, but a role model nonetheless.

Yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA6vf_Z7YKs&feature=youtu.be&t=225

>> No.14746064

>>14745856
That’s what OP was asking for

>> No.14746722
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14746722

>>14746011
took over 70 posts to get one worthwhile and not retarded. baka the state of /lit. thank you based tripfag

>> No.14746817

>>14746722
>ask about something complex as religion
>especially Christianity which factions are constantly warring with one another for all of its existence
>has had more heresy than you can shake a stick at
>expect to get a simple response
Wuh

>> No.14746821

>>14744822
Christ is larger than Christianity, they say.

He has amazed all men throughout history, Christians or not. And in that way, they find him.

>> No.14746849

>>14744822
To deny the Lord Christ as the son of the Living God is to deny his perfection. It is to deny him entirely.

>> No.14746862

>>14744988
the difference between a lunatic and a prophet is that the lunatic never questions himself.

>> No.14746866

>>14744945
That's an oxymoron

>> No.14746908

>>14744822
>>14745122
>>14745121
>>14745176
>>14745207
>>14745241
>>14745375
>>14745391
>>14745420
>>14745496
>>14745505
>>14745638
>>14745757
>>14745972
>>14746821
>Whoever does not believe who I send believes not me.
>Whoever knows not me, knows not the father.
>Something greater than Jonah is here.
>Something greater than the Temple is here.
>I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
>I will come in glory at the right hand of the Father in judgment.
>No one knows me except to whom the Father reveals it.
>This is my dearly beloved Son, who brings me great Joy. Listen to him.
>The Father and I are one.
>I call you Peter, and on this rock I will build my church.
>The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
>This is my body, and this is my blood.
>Peter, feed my sheep.
>Peter, feed my sheep.
>Peter, feed my sheep.

>The beginning of Wisdom is Fear of the Lord.
>Get Wisdom.

>> No.14746947

>>14745122
>Son of God instead of Son of Man
Why does this infurriates me so much? Do I need to have sex?