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14692845 No.14692845 [Reply] [Original]

How is God a loving being if he allows evil? don't bother saying 'he gave us free will', it's a flawed argument from the start.

>> No.14692858
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14692858

gnosticism solved the problem of evil like 2000 years ago, get with the program

>> No.14692862

>>14692845
because evil does not have any existence, for something to be evil it must be good first

>> No.14692872
File: 5 KB, 235x215, 1527398442309.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14692872

>>14692845
evil is a spook

>> No.14692885

>>14692858
Putting the blame on some fictional "demiurge" isn't a solution

>> No.14692890

>>14692862
It has existence, by definition. You are creating a language game by declaring all 'being' to be good, thus anything against being, isn't even 'being', let alone being wrong from the get-go, it creates a dualism that doesn't tie in with monism.

>> No.14692896

>>14692845
people only remember god whenever they are suffering. god is so alone that he frequently create suffering so humans don't forget him.

>> No.14692902

Martin Luther(PBUH) wrote in the small catechism that bad things are either a punishment, or a test of charachter. It makes sense considering the book of Job.

>> No.14692909

>>14692872
reductionist retard shit for people who don’t want to think (intellectual laziness)

>> No.14692922

>>14692845
So a "good" father to you is one who rules with such a tyrannical fist that nothing is allowed to pass besides what he decrees, as judge and executor? That you are not allowed to act until given permission to act? A dictatorship of his will? I think that says more about you than the nature of God. Please stay far from me and impose not your will on my sovereignty.

>> No.14692937

>>14692845
Why should God's Goodness, being beyond our comprehension, avoid the "evil" that is within our comprehension? God loves Creation and humanity is but a subset of Creation.

>> No.14692942

>>14692922
yeah man god is just a hippy who is sooo high that he lets evil pass because he doesnt want to be like the other uncool parents

>> No.14692965

>>14692890
yes it has existence insofar as it is within existence, insofar as it has being to some degree; every being proceeds from something that is good and all things long for their source, for goodness in likeness to it; evil is a deviation, an unnatural state.
you are the one posing division and a separate existence of evil, as if evil could be from itself, be absolute, self-subsisting.

>> No.14692972

>>14692885
If you dont believe in it then that's the problem

>> No.14692974

>>14692845
God isn't a loving being, he's an artist, and suffering and evil exist as part of his art.

>> No.14692982

>Implying you can understand God's concept of love and not just some vague "dude be nice to each other" version

>> No.14692995

>>14692896
Based incel god he's literally me

>> No.14693002

>>14692937
>>14692965
>>14692982
none of you are answering the problem.

>> No.14693007

>>14692972
Gnosticism is a half-measure for people who are to afraid to say they reject God

>> No.14693020

>>14693002
tell me then how can evil have existence by itself, how can it be self-subsistent?

>> No.14693033

Evil is just the lack of good

>> No.14693034

>>14693002
But we did. The idea that the world does not revolve around humanity is so terrifying that you simply shove it under the rug. We are but a small part of Creation, and a failure to accept this reality is the root of much existential horror. In a shellnut: it's not all about you.

>> No.14693039
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14693039

>>14692858
>"""(((Solved)))""""

>> No.14693048

>>14693034
Based ego shattering poster

>> No.14693050

>>14693020
How can good?

>> No.14693109

>>14692922
>BAWWW tough love is unfair!
And if your Dad let you stay home from school for weeks at a time, eating ice cream and playing video games as your 10 year old self would prefer, you'd be a disgusting, fat dumb waste of skin.

>> No.14693123

>>14693034
This. Everything is relative and god is impartial.

>> No.14693137

>>14692974
He is a loving being, the problem is, he loves all

The evil included

>> No.14693151

>>14692862
>why do bad things happen to good people?
>ummmm ackshyually bad things don't exist
the absolute state of apologetics

>> No.14693153

>this entire thread
DUDE

>> No.14693168

>>14693109
>my dad is omnipotent and omniscient
>i still need to go school to learn
great job dad you lazy shit

>> No.14693228
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14693228

>>14692845
The omnibenevolence of God is cope for normalgroids that require some pet deity to make everything how they want it. God doesn't abide by human moral standards; He doesn't abide to any standard by virtue of being omnipotent/omniscient (redundant if you have your wits about you) and boundless. He simply is.

>> No.14693264

God does not allow evil. He says to hate evil. Sounds like good advice to me but some people prefer to create hell. Once they get sick of hell they may know that heavens gates never shut. Evil people can't enter heaven because heaven is goodness.

>> No.14693279

>>14693264
>God does not allow evil.
>but it exists anyway
whoops, guess god fucked up

>> No.14693304
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14693304

>>14692845

>> No.14693310
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14693310

>>14692845
>anime_girl_we_have_this_thread_everyday.jpg

>> No.14693316
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14693316

>>14693007
>>14692885
t. demiurge

>> No.14693321

>>14693279
I think what he's saying is that evil is a matter of perspective and if you turned your eyes to god all you would see is good

>> No.14693328

>>14693316
I wish I was the demiurge just so I could torment all of you

>> No.14693344

>>14693321
>guys make sure you hate evil
>but also evil could be anything or nothing it's all relative haha
great advice god

>> No.14693354

>>14693279
Don't blame god for the evil you and others do because that is evil (unjust) and opens a spiritual door to lesser spirits that agree with your hellish logic. They will feed you more and more death and your soul will not flourish to the decree that you allow hell to destroy or poison the landscape of your microcosm. Kill the heathen in your land, do not even allow hells babies to live. Inherit the land God had given you.

>> No.14693373

>>14693354
I would kill you if I knew how to find you

>> No.14693383

>>14693354
>no you have to go kill all the demons, i can't do it because i'm busy
real good use of that omnipotence on god's part

>> No.14693385

>>14693321
sounds like Taoist stuff
> Right is not right; so is not so. If right were really right, it would differ so clearly from not right that there would be no need for argument. If so were really so, it would differ so clearly from not so that there would be no need for argument. This proposes that true knowledge is truth without perspective.

>> No.14693454

the ability to love that which is most hideous

>> No.14693456
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14693456

>>14693328
You still do when you post you little nigga

>> No.14693483

>>14693050
because good begets and makes prosper

>>14693151
read >>14692965

>> No.14693505

>>14693034
>>14693048
Alright so God is evil and the world doesn't revolve around us. Gotcha.

>> No.14693507

>>14693483
>>14692965
>all things long for their source
Total bullshit. The ocean is the river's goal.

>> No.14693510

>>14693354
>Don't blame god for the evil yo
he created it

>> No.14693540

>>14693228
brainlet who ignores the extension of platonic tradition, God is The Good; Evil can be Good insofar as it is not punishment, the apparently evil act which is evil but the fact of having deserved it, the deviation from what is (natural, good)

>> No.14693546

>>14693483
read it, it's retarded
>okay so evil exists but i'm going to pretend it doesn't because it's """unnatural"""

>> No.14693549
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14693549

>>14693510
You really think you can or should be able to grasp God's Plan with your little ape brain? The vanity of man is just baffling.

>> No.14693560

>>14693033
Based.

>> No.14693563

>>14693510
You are mistaken. God can only give birth to what she loves. She wills that all be as great, perfect and beautiful as she but some have no faith and spew evil lies out and the earthly soul accepts those lies.

>> No.14693564

>>14692922
Isn't that how nature is? How would you like existence to be? You want to just be rolling around with pleasure 24/7. Stop being a coomer.

>> No.14693568

>>14693549
Why bother to call god good then? Just another ape category, right?

>> No.14693570

>>14693549
>god has a plan for all of us
>you have free will
which is it?

>> No.14693575

>>14693002
We disobeyed and allowed evil to come into existence in our minds. We split existence into categories. It's all a matter of perspective.

>> No.14693576

>>14693564
>no god has to beb this way because otherwise it's contrary to nature
whoops, so much for omnipotence

>> No.14693581

>>14693575
Wait but I thought relativism was wrong?

>> No.14693588

>>14693546
the remedy for disorder will be pain

>> No.14693595

>>14693549
>>14693563
So the problem of evil persists -- God created evil, he allowed us to commit evil. It was part of his plan. God is evil. Your arrogance is no argument.

>> No.14693596

>>14693588
come at me, bro

>> No.14693604

>>14693328
It would make no difference to us. We are already being tormented. Wish you were demiurge too.

>> No.14693629

>>14693505
Waaaa why can't I coom and be happy 24/7. Think what you are asking.

>> No.14693638
File: 237 KB, 1200x720, GodsPlan.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14693638

>>14693595
The existance of evil cannot be denied, but one can deny that the existence of evil is evil. It's all in God's plan, homie.

>> No.14693640

>>14693604
Are you though? Like, are you really BEING tormented, or is the torment of your own creation? To me the idea of a demiurge seems like a huge cope that miserable people use when they somehow aren't able to get over the idea that the world was made by some higher being.

>> No.14693643

>>14693629
literally why can't I? god can't make that possible? he's not omnipotent?

>> No.14693645
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14693645

>>14693576
Why does omnipotence have to cater to what you want? Lmao being this retarded.

>> No.14693647

>>14693507
what is the ocean's goal? is the source of ocean rivers?

>> No.14693650

>>14693645
>god could prevent you from suffering with no ill effects but he doesn't because fuck you lmao
okay, not benevolent then

>> No.14693661

Read Job

>> No.14693666

>>14693581
It's the state we are in, didn't say it was right. Saying relativism is right, is making it an absolute isn't it? Life is a paradox man. Stop being a pussy. The majority of us are dealt a bad hand. That's just how it is. You have to try and make the best of it.

>> No.14693685

>>14693638
Too optimistic so it's fallacious to say 'in the future it will be good'

>> No.14693694

>>14693629
Why would he make it possible? Where's the meaning in that existence. You might as well not exist at all. Stop being a little bitch. Look at existence. Not just of humans but of everything, what's it about? Enduring and surviving. God was probably just bored and created existence. I'm not saying, God is not evil, some part of God is obviously evil but part of God is also Good. The balance between the two, I think that's what God is.

>> No.14693696

>>14693661
read it for me

>> No.14693714

>>14693640
Dude I have my reasons for believing in God and questioning the idea that all is just material. Sometimes I know God exists other times, I only believe but do I feel like I am put through certain trails and tribulations? Yes I do. And the point of these is come out on the other side or at least give it my all and push myself to my limit as a human being. Instead of folding like a whiny participation award receiving American bitch.

>> No.14693721

>>14693666
Nice satan trips lol. Anyway I don't feel that I actually have a horse in this race; The question of whether god is good or not is irrelevant to someone who doesn't believe. What I meant was that many of the Christians here get all up in arms at the slightest hint of moral relativism, and but yet Christians such as you (I assume you are Christian) will sincerely say that evil only exists in the mind.

>> No.14693736

>>14692845
evil is awesome

>> No.14693751

>>14693650
Do you suffer every second of every moment of existence? Are you just too lazy to look for your purpose in life so you spend all your time cooming and being a NEET. And it's not about whether God can make your existence pointless and full of pleasure, it's that it would pointless. There's a point to your life and feeling pleasure every second of it, isn't the point.

>> No.14693759

>>14693736
Finally someone I can agree with in the stupid thread

>> No.14693764

>>14693751
>it's not about whether God can make your existence pointless and full of pleasure
why can't god make life purposeful and full of pleasure? not omnipotent or he just doesn't feel like it?

>> No.14693773

>>14693764
Hey, listen man. I agree with you but this argument is pointless. Go do literally anything else with your time, you will feel better

>> No.14693796

>>14693721
Lmao bro God created Satan or Satan is a part of him. Don't read much Gnostic stuff but alot of what they say is obvious. I don't know if I'm Christian or not, I do agree with some Christian things and others not so much. I feel like it's about what we can do for each other here and also how we can fix our own internal problems we have that we inherited from our parents. I think human existence is about breaking the cycle of self destruction that we are prone too.

>> No.14693816

>>14693773
Lmao

>> No.14693817

>>14693595
Until you stop calling God evil you will continue to be blind. You have an insane perception of reality. How can you heal from your wounds if you keep thrashing all about? This is a fundamental problem that hell has. You can't regain your status as a microtheos when you keep rejecting the divine reality. You must be confined to a fallen microcosm which can not exist in glory unless the dual nature of your being is restored.

>> No.14693829

>>14693764
Maybe this is what existence looks like full of pleasure. Maybe we don't actually know what Evil is. Like Osiris, riding in his sun boat keeping that giant snek away.

>> No.14693839

>>14693817
Based Schizopost

>> No.14693844

>>14693817
>you asked a question i can't answer so you're evil and insane
it's all so tiresome

>> No.14693849

>>14693764
Maybe this place is like being in prison anon. Prison is not supposed to be pleasurable. Look at you wanting a hedonistic existence. Maybe that's why you are here.

>> No.14693861

Evil is the movement of the will away from the good and so is a privation. It has no ontological status. Think of the good as a monad and concentric circles around it. The will can either move towards the center or away from it and the degree to which the will moves away from it there can be nothing. The good is all that exists.

>> No.14693862

>>14693817
>>14693839
That's emotional appeal. I'm not going to agree with you because of scare tactics. The God you believe in is different to reality, unless you believe God is also evil.

>> No.14693877

>>14693764
Pleasure is not the reason for human existence, and anyone who actually thinks that it is will never even come close to being happy,

>> No.14693881

>>14693862
That wasn't me. I just think there's some truth to what he's saying. I don't mind if you don't agree. That's fine dude. We are just talking about something.

>> No.14693884

>>14693849
>stop asking questions i don't like, you belong in jail
see above

>> No.14693889

>>14693877
Forreal but this board is full of neets and coomers. So what can you expect.

>> No.14693890

>>14693877
that's nice, can you answer my question or not?

>> No.14693894

>>14693884
Lmao why are you butthurt anon.

>> No.14693897

>God a loving being
Yes, to the elect.

>> No.14693901

>>14692845
Experiencing hardship is good for you

>> No.14693914

>>14693861
Because you made the language argument that redefines reality right?

>> No.14693920

>>14693901
This concept is impossible for OP to understand lmao he wants to coom, forever and ever and get the good things out of suffering without having to experience any of it.

>> No.14693924

>>14692845
Evil exists because an angel close to God rebelled. I agree that the free will argument is flawed, there is free will even without evil.

>> No.14693937
File: 15 KB, 255x255, 1524887352451.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14693937

Take this and get out, the question belongs on /his/, not /lit/.

>Summa Theologiae - Question 49, The cause of evil
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm

>> No.14693939

>>14693901
why did god make it that way?

>> No.14693954

>>14693890
The premise of your argument is that pleasure=good, or that pleasure=act of benevolence by the Creator.

The mystery of a higher power is that its motives, or mechanisms by which it achieves its motives, are not able to be comprehended. So such a being could have aims which are "benevolent," yet that benevolence does not meet the immediate needs (or wants) of every human person.

So if you're seriously asking why a benevolent deity cannot exist when every human's life is not an unending orgy of pleasure and purpose, I am just going to say that the premise of your question is retarded.

>> No.14693998

>>14693939
Why did God make a world where glazzomorphs aren't the main sentient being? Why did God set the cosmological constants in such a way that matter exists? Why are nuclear forces so much stronger than gravity? Why did avian dinosaurs survive the Cretaceous mass extinction when trilobites couldn't hack it past the Permian one? Why do fish exist?

>> No.14693999

>>14693954
>god works in mysterious ways and you're stupid for thinking about it
this was the last truism i needed, thank you

>> No.14694008

>>14693998
>Why did avian dinosaurs survive the Cretaceous mass extinction when trilobites couldn't hack it past the Permian one?
You were doing good until this one. Dinosaurs never existed.

>> No.14694015

>>14693901
>t. Goldberg, your boss

>> No.14694035

>>14693998
there clearly could be a universe where the cosmological constant is different or fish don't exist, so could there be a universe where suffering isn't good for you?

>> No.14694039

>>14692845
God doesn't allow evil. To him everything is good, he loves everything. It is you who calls it "evil" and "bad".

>> No.14694048

>>14694039
>rape and pedophilia is good :) children dying of horrendously painful disease is good. I love it!
then god is a fucking monster, I hope he really is dead

>> No.14694121

>>14694048
It is you who made rape and pedophilia bad.
Rape and pedophilia is good, at least from my perspective. In fact, I bet you that somewhere in your lineage someone was raped and produced the next generation, and without that rape you wouldn't exist.
Pedophilia is also great from my perspective. Think about how much great classical art that worships childlike beauty would cease to exist that I have been entertained by and has heightened my existence. Think about how many lineages would cease to exist if it was erased, how much technology therein that I use everyday would cease.
Meanwhile, your worldview is that these things are "bad". But imagine if they never existed?

>> No.14694129

>>14694121
fool

>> No.14694165

>>14694121
>pedophilia is good because some artists were pedophiles and I enjoyed their art
what a disgustingly egotistical opinion.
>But imagine if they never existed?
if pedophilia never existed nothing of real value would be lost. You are a sociopath or have driven yourself insane with mental gymnastics

>> No.14694192

>>14692845
You cant have free will without allowing the potential for evil.

A free will universe is of immense value compared to just a robot universe, so the allowing of potential evil is worth it.

Free Will = The Greater Good

>> No.14694206

>>14692845
when you believe in evil you're believing in a false deity which is against god

>> No.14694228

>>14694165
>what a disgustingly egotistical opinion.
All opinions are egotistical: they express the ego. To do otherwise is an impossibility, as far as I am concerned.
>if pedophilia never existed nothing of real value would be lost
Nothing of real value would be lost to you, which I am perfectly fine with. For me, though, I would rather find something of value in pedophilia so I can justify it's existence, and I find this in art, and in the families it has inadvertantly produced that have had children that created and evolved technology and science a few steps forward. You have your way, I have my way. As for the correct way, it does not exist.

>> No.14694237

>>14694035
Is there a universe out there where you aren't a retarded pussy?

>> No.14694243

>>14694192
>You cant have free will without allowing the potential for evil.

Because God made it so

>> No.14694256

>>14694228
The correct way exists. It demands that every pedophile be strangled with their own entrails.

>> No.14694364

>>14694243
God is not sovereign over our freedom. You exist because of this.

>> No.14694381

>>14694228
>I would rather find something of value in pedophilia so I can justify it's existence
so you would rather delude yourself with weak justifications for abhorrent behavior. I'm glad few people have your batshit insane and socially deviant mentality. The "god works in mysterious ways" is a better excuse than this shit, and that's saying something. Get your head out of your ass.

>> No.14694452

>>14694364
demiurge

>> No.14694471

>>14693696
>After God speaks to Job and his three friends, God asks Job where he was when He created the earth and filled it with amazing things (meaning that it is not possible for man to understand God's ways)
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job

>> No.14694504

>>14692845
Honestly I think the problem of free will (as in, is it good?) is a greater problem than the problem of evil, philosophically. I mean, you wouldn't let your child run around near a busy highway...

>> No.14694545

God is all things, including hateful and evil to contrast with the love and good. This is babby's first spiritual epiphany you gargantuan shitposter.

>> No.14694554

>>14694471
Where indeed God. Where indeed.

>> No.14694566

>>14694364
Then God is not God, for the Absolute Infinite is sovereign over absolutely everything.

>You exist because of this
If so, it is only because God made it to be so.

>> No.14694581

>>14694504
That is the problem

>> No.14694595
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14694595

>>14694471
>https://simple..

>> No.14694624

>>14694566
You don't seem to understand that God does not want to be the only one who exist. Love is not powerful, love is utterly weak. Thus christ was nailed to a cross. The seed was sown and now God will reap many children.

>> No.14694703

God says i am that i am. So i have beheld the most beautiful one who matches perfectly with my soul. They weep and gnash their teeth. If it were up to gods freedom, you would love and trust him. But it takes two to love and reality is completed in three. One day his beloved will wake but i have no ability to, nor the right. But i tried to give you seeds from my paradise. Do with them what you will.

>> No.14694861

>>14692965
You are the one posing division and a separate existence of good, as if goodness could be from itself, be absolute, self-subsisting.

>> No.14694865

>>14693033
Good is just the lack of evil. Stop ignoring dialectic.

>> No.14694871

>>14692858
The Upanishads did 800 years before them homie

>> No.14695101

>>14694624
Only because God made it to be so.

>> No.14695133

>>14692845
Evil is just challenge. Challenge causes people to grow. Evil is only a terrifying thing from a mortal perspective. And yes, God gave us free will so that we might choose him.

>> No.14695206

>>14694381
>so you would rather delude yourself with weak justifications for abhorrent behavior
abhorrent to whom? I have found benefit from such behaviour, thereby making it no longer abhorrent. It is YOU WHO THINKS IT IS ABHORRENT, precisely because it is "socially unacceptable", "not right in the eyes of god", "immoral", etc. etc. all feminine reasons (aka not reasons, the definition of "weak justification", hypocrite).
>The "god works in mysterious ways" is a better excuse than this shit, and that's saying something.
Yes, "better", according to you, precisely because it aligns more with your own nihilistic and feminine ideology that cringes at every suggestion of violence, war, force, any allusion to these realities.

>> No.14695228

>>14695206
>abhorrent to whom?
to everyone except pedophiles, pedophile. Kill yourself.

>> No.14695251

>>14695228
I guess all lifeforms lacking the "moral faculty" are pedophiles. Schizophrenic.

>> No.14695308

>>14695206
>not right in the eyes of god", "immoral",
it infringes on my rights, endangers and destroys the lives innocent children and endangers my family. I don't need to explain away why pedophilia is bad, it should be intrinsic from both your social upbringing AND your naturally empathetic brain. But you seem to be a sociopath who was raised by monkeys or something. You are a danger to society and I very sincerely hope you die soon
>I guess all lifeforms lacking the "moral faculty" are pedophiles
or sociopaths. Or batshit insane and belong in a psych ward. There is no hope for a self-deluded tripfaggot like you. I wonder how your edginess holds up if your entire family is tortured and raped in front of you. I wonder how you'd be justifying rape if you were raped as a child. "Rape results in art I like!' you'll scream as your sphincter is torn and your mother screams for help. I bet you feel so superior for being above morals and you don't see how much of an imbecile you really are by rejecting millions of years of human and social development, you attention whore dunce

>> No.14695655

>>14695308
Imagine getting btfo'd by The Man of all people

>> No.14695675

What do I have to read before i get into Plotinus and Neoplatonism?

>> No.14695684

>>14695675
Start with the Greeks

>> No.14695732
File: 949 KB, 693x847, IMG_20200206_005213.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14695732

>>14692845
https://discord.gg/3UH89UV

>> No.14696923

>>14692845
>it's a flawed argument from the start.

Why?

>> No.14696974

To all the shitty answers in this thread:

Relativist and/or Cosmological arguments are bad in general and have no place in Christianity in particular.

>> No.14696978

>>14692845
you wont get to atheism by disproving theism. atheism is a philosophy of knowledge that has almost nothing to do with religion.

>> No.14697008

>>14692896
God just sounds like a bitter, incompetent programmer. Even though he could program us to never forget him, he instead decides to punish us with no rhyme or reason? Nice one, godcopers

>> No.14697084

>>14692845
Don't bother saying anything.

>> No.14697138

>>14693507
>the ocean is the final end
you didn't think long about this, did you?

>> No.14697140

>>14692845
Evil doesn't exist

>> No.14697203

>>14692858
I mean OP posted an image of the Demiurge so perhaps he was heading this way anyway

>> No.14697219

>>14692845
Of course God allows evil, he created it.

>> No.14697252
File: 69 KB, 500x1030, 1570455378394 (1).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14697252

>>14692845
>don't bother saying 'he gave us free will', it's a flawed argument from the start.
>absolute slavery is good

>> No.14697609

>>14692845
>why does a titan cast a shadow
Lol idk have sex

>> No.14697615

>>14692890
>it creates a dualism that doesn't tie in with monism
>evil is a perversion of the good
There, fixed it.

>> No.14697813

Read Proclus' On the Existence of Evils. He gives the basic argumentation that Christians have been plagiarizing for centuries (like so many other things they plagiarize from the Neoplatonists without giving credit).

>> No.14698037

>>14692922
The ingratitude you are showing the one the crafted you in sickening. We may not know why sorrow is happening at the moment we have to rely on the fact that God is omnipotent and wants the best for his children.

>> No.14698086

>>14698037
>daddy only beats me because he loves me, he would never do anything to hurt me