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14577342 No.14577342 [Reply] [Original]

Why did God give us the freedom to be 'evil' and why did he conceive natural laws to enable evil? Does this mean the notion of freedom is always tied to evil, since without evil we cannot truly be free, according to those that defend 'God' against the problem of evil. Who should I read to address this? I'm also curious about animal suffering.

>> No.14577345

>>14577342
God gave us free will. Some people choose to do evil deeds.

>> No.14577351

an all powerful god makes no mistakes,
a failure of a human casts doubt.

>> No.14577352

>>14577342

Freedom does imply freedom to be evil. The absence of freedom, however, is slavery, which most would consider to be evil.

Hm...

>> No.14577370

>>14577345
Free will is an illusion

>> No.14577381

>>14577342
Without the possibly of evil and bad, there are no consequences, and thus no choices. To give us freedom, He had to allow the existence of evil. This is difficult for us to appreciate because evil is such a powerful force in the only existence that we know, but so much is beyond and for those that are faithful, they will understand it when they have transcended, and perhaps even appreciate some of the bad for the effect in had in allowing us the freedom to cultivate our soul during our first life.

>> No.14577385
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14577385

>>14577342
Unironically read the Silmarillion.

>> No.14577389

>>14577345
God gave us 'free will', which means he gave us the ability to do evil.

>> No.14577396

>>14577381
Why must their be 'evil and bad' in order to have 'choices'. Why not create the perfect paradise for people to enjoy?

>> No.14577399
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14577399

>>14577342

>> No.14577401

>>14577396
Nobody comprehends good without knowledge of evil

>> No.14577410

>>14577401
Because God made it so.

>> No.14577424

>>14577342
There is no God, freedom, good, evil, or natural law.

>> No.14577426
File: 45 KB, 499x466, niggadrinking.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14577426

>>14577399
niggas laughin until you drop the Plant on em

>> No.14577428

>>14577342

God give you free will.

He gives you free will so you can choose to accept God or.. reject God (evil).

To be morally good is to choose to do good and to choose to follow God rather than reject him.

Simple as

>> No.14577431

>>14577370
>makes vague statement

explain your point, further please

>> No.14577433

>>14577428
Such free will entails evil. So he gave me evil within the package of freedom.

>> No.14577435

Hi res of that photo? Capnolagniac fag here

>> No.14577441

>>14577433
>>14577342
What is the conception of God in these points? Are you both viewing him as a bearded man in the sky who is doling out various things? Most religions view God as the Prime Mover or the Singularity... The kick off of existence itself, not some person saying, "hmm... I think I'll give the humies this or that"

>> No.14577448

>>14577396
How would people know that this paradise is perfect without something to compare to?

>> No.14577449

>>14577342
hey I tried to click on the picture so it would be bigger for the purpose of masturbation but it didn't work

>> No.14577453

>>14577351
God created us as separate entities capable of making free choices. We're not mindless zombies who can only obey God's commands. A human failing is not a reflection of God's ability.

>> No.14577456

>>14577441
Surely an 'omni' God would cause mental and bodily events also, but even within the Christian conception, God creates 'natural law' which involves evil.
>>14577448
Because God could've made the world in a way which we would be able to, since he is God after all.

>> No.14577461
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14577461

>>14577449
You're welcome

>> No.14577464
File: 185 KB, 960x960, zoroastriangirl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14577464

>>14577342
>Who should I read to address this?
The Holy Bible. Read Genesis. Read it very slowly and carefully, it's a very dense text. Adam and Eve are created with the ability to choose. What did they do with this ability? They ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Nevermind the serpent for now. The important point is given a choice they disobeyed.

If you want to read more about sin or the problem of evil read Aquinas. He explicitly answers this question. Evil can only come from good, and all men (being created) are good. Ergo: evil may exist through him.

>>14577345
fpbp

>> No.14577471

>>14577464
>The Holy Bible. Read Genesis. Read it very slowly and carefully, it's a very dense text. Adam and Eve are created with the ability to choose. What did they do with this ability? They ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Nevermind the serpent for now. The important point is given a choice they disobeyed.

Yeah God made this entire situation though.

>> No.14577474

>>14577471
Yes and?

>> No.14577482

>>14577474
God created the laws of reality and free will. He did not have to configure it in such a way that evil exists.

>> No.14577502
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14577502

>>14577482
that's a very passive voiced post, anon, but an attack on God nonetheless. I expected this is what you were going to post, but I hoped I was wrong.

Your position is that it is undesirable that evil should exist. That if God could have arranged it differently, he ought to have. You disagree with God and his methods. You are holding God to *your* judgment and not the other way around. The absolute hubris required to express that sentiment. Shocking. This is your error, think on it a while.

>> No.14577512

>>14577448
Why is it important that the inhabitants of paradise understand that it's perfect? More to the point, why is that understanding so important that the all-loving God condemned us to live in this shithole?

>> No.14577522

>>14577502
Yet God tells us to do good and pretends to be on our side. It is clear that it is not the true God that created this world. Our spirit trapped in this flesh body lets us know intuitively that this is not how it should be. You can't call a God 'good' if he allows schizophrenia, disease and even wild animal suffering. You can only do this on the pretense that you have this magical space and whenever there is a logical fallacy present you go back into this magical space and proclaim your 'faith' being stronger than reason, or proclaim that God is more 'wise' than me because he 'just is' and therefore my judgement is null.

>> No.14577581

>>14577345
Oh look a non-answer

>> No.14577590

>>14577522
Evil can be justified. :)

>> No.14577601

>>14577471
>Yeah God made this entire situation though.

Consciously choosing the situation? Or did God just create the situation in which it could occur?

>> No.14577605

>>14577581
What do you mean? How could it be improved? And what is your position?

>> No.14577606

>>14577342
christian god is a lie. the real god does shit for lulz. there's really no point in anything at all other than to entertain him. well, i hope he reads this message: "go fuck yourself and also thanks for the dopamine you sometimes provide me"

>> No.14577613
File: 57 KB, 657x527, apucrusader.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14577613

>>14577522
>"God ... pretends to be on our side"
>"You can't call a God 'good' if he allows schizophrenia, disease..."
wew. like I said, you're trying to hold God accountable. that's a mistake because you are literally not capable of that -- you don't have a brain big enough to understand God's intent. he is the potter. you are the clay. see now? no magical spaces involved. you simply don't understand the terms being used here. God is not religion. God is not a person like you think of a human person. He cannot be measured by any human moral standard, because we're his creations. And ingrates besides. Your judgment is null because you're a fucking ingrate who thinks because he has two brain cells to rub together that he can get God into a logical headlock. You can't. You won't.

>> No.14577623
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14577623

>>14577613
based post desu

>> No.14577626

Good is willed.
Without freedom there are no good deeds. With freedom there's the potential of evil. Without freedom there's only God, and we cogs in a wheel.

>> No.14577650

>>14577626
>Without freedom there are no good deeds
This is a good point

>> No.14577666

>>14577342
the idea of god doesn't make sense. stop struggling with it and just admit it is philosophically weak.

>> No.14577670
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14577670

>>14577666
>666
don't listen to this poster, anons. he didn't even present an argument, only an assertion.

>> No.14577680

>>14577464
Skip all that. Read Tolkien or Chesterton. The bible is not a great source if we're being serious. You need a guide.

>> No.14577693

>>14577613
>you don't have a brain big enough to understand God's intent

not an argument, what could have been his intent when he created us susceptible to evil? bare in mind that according to Christian doctrine he not only gives us free will but also punishes us for abusing this same free will he gave us. why wouldn't he just create the Earth and humans like a sort of snowball where everyone would be just a cog in a machine designed to produce only the best outcomes thereby escaping the dilemma of punishing your own subjects for doing what you tacitly allowed them to do when you gave them free will?

>> No.14577700

>>14577693
Why would God create at all? Your question seems to reduce to that at the logical endpoint. What does it mean for us to be creatures, what is the nature of this act ('creation')?

>> No.14577706

>>14577700
seems to me you're correct, apologies for my incompetence but I'm not too well versed in philosophy of religion. what are some books that answer this sort of questions?

>> No.14577714

>>14577706
I don't know, I'm an atheist and not well-versed in theological accounts of this. My impression is that this act of creation is precisely the breaking point where the notion of God (understood theologically, i.e. theoretically, aside from the empirical practices of religion which are theology's substance) shows itself to be a projection of humanity. Feuerbach talks about this

>> No.14577720

>>14577342
Name

>> No.14577721

>>14577342
>Why did God give us the freedom to be 'evil'
God doesn't exist

>and why did he conceive natural laws to enable evil?
He didn't

>Does this mean the notion of freedom is always tied to evil,
Terrible sentence

>since without evil we cannot truly be free, according to those that defend 'God' against the problem of evil.
Faggot

>Who should I read to address this?
Richard Dawkins

> I'm also curious about animal suffering.
Get a car from a shelter and kill it slowly. Nobody will know

>> No.14577722

Going from Scripture, God created man in the image and likeness of Himself. Complete freedom is an aspect of boundless perfection, since anything less than freedom would be limited and therefore not boundless. Consider which is more perfect: to be able to do evil and choose to do good or only be able to do good. Humanity had to learn to choose good (alignment with God's will) which is why the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life were put in the Garden in the first place. We were intended to willingly obey God and by our obedience grow towards perfection.

Of course, God also being omniscient knew that we would choose sin, even before the creation of the world. Yet He still chose to create the world. Being infinitely good, He gave us a perfect sacrifice in Christ to atone for our disobedience, giving us the opportunity to align ourselves with God once again and continue to grow towards becoming sons of God.

To answer the question shortly, freedom isn't tied to evil, freedom is tied to the potential for evil. Freedom is just one aspect of the perfection we strive for, willful alignment with the good (ie alignment with the will of God) being another aspect.

>> No.14577723

>>14577693
>also punishes us for abusing this same free will
"Abusing"? No. Disobeying. Yes.

>the dilemma of punishing your own subjects for doing what you tacitly allowed them to do
It's not a dilemma. God gave orders. We are to follow them. Do not kill, do not bear false witness, do not steal, love and forgive, be fruitful and multiply, obedience to God, etc etc you know them. Like I said, you're trying to put your human moral measuring stick on God. You literally cannot. Angels follow orders exactly, and they never tire of worshiping God because they don't need faith. They see God, they know God, God speaks to them directly. They are helpers to mankind. Same with demons, they know God. The demon named Legion recognized Jesus immediately and called out to him before being cast out. Humans need faith to know God.

>> No.14577725

>>14577721
I wish this weren't bait

>> No.14577743

The problem of evil always gets tied to the question of freedom, but I feel like half of the issue is left unaddressed, namely natural evil. I feel like reducing natural evil to conscious evil by things like invoking the Fall is a copout, because it fails to account for any specificity about the existing world by smearing all over it with "it's like that because fuck you"

>> No.14577765

>>14577723
>Angels are helpers to mankind
show me scripture that says or at least implies this pls.

>> No.14577787

>>14577765
I was thinking of the Holy Spirit there, actually. John 1. Angels are typically messengers, sometimes they advise with helpful info like at Sodom.

>> No.14577863

>>14577342
yeah.

>> No.14577908
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14577908

>2000 years later and Christians still haven't solved the problem of evil
meanwhile in based non-Abrahamic religions it was never even an issue

>> No.14577941
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14577941

>>14577342
>millennia of whinging about Theodicy and purported Christians like those ITT still answer you as man-idolaters who hate the will of God in their hearts even as they profess His name
You are not free in the sense that you mean, nor is anyone else. You are an earthen vessel with a function, to fulfill your purpose is to have freedom. The self-glorifying man believes himself to be free in his creaturely will, though he is as a slave to his sin. Those who are conformed to God's will and purpose by His own good pleasure through the redemptive work of Christ and are slaves instead to God's eternal glory are free in that they accomplish their purpose. You do not get to choose God, but are chosen, to say otherwise is to elevate man above God.
>Who should I read to address this?
Read the entire Bible but make sure you don't neglect Genesis, Job, or the Pauline epistles. Read On the Bondage of the Will. Read Augustine.

>> No.14577957

I was thinking about this the other day:

God knows everything, right? And everything that will be?

So before creating humans, he knew what would happen (war, starvation, hunger etc etc). So why did he create us if he knew what were to happen? The only thing I could think of is that existence and free will are such valued things that the misery we must endure to have those two is worth it.

>> No.14578434

All GOOD things come through God. God gave us the tremendous gift of free will and he does not ever take it away from us no matter how much we might plead for him to. Man's only creation under all of Heaven is sin. It is the one thing alone that we can lay soveirgn claim to and it is caused by denying God and his will.

That is not to say man is inherently "evil," he must choose to do that, but he is inherently sinful.

>> No.14578441

>>14577957
Your mistake is that you believe God views time, actions, and everything as man does.

>> No.14578500

>>14578441
Theodicy is the ultimate cope

>> No.14578504

It's almost like this transdimensonal "being" isn't bound by human sensibilities and is the cause of evil as it is equally the cause of good. The "pet diety" people ITT are associating with the word "God" is a lower emanation of this trancient mass, as are all things. It isn't omnipotent or boundless, because it's bound by some inner nature to be "all good or belevolent" by human standards (or it imparted it standards on humans, to which my point of it's impotency still stands because so many things in the universe are contrary to it's standards).

>> No.14578510
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14578510

>>14577522

>> No.14578544

>>14577342
God, in his infinite narcissism, felt it wasn't enough to create unthinking people to chant his name, he needed to browbeat thinking people into chanting his name, because otherwise, what's the point in having your name chanted?

>> No.14578556

>>14577693
>to produce only the best outcomes
What are the best outcomes?

>> No.14578563

>>14577464
The snake is literaly satan. Read reveleationd.

>> No.14578565

>>14578556
God, the omniscient source of all that is Good, would presumably know, don't you think?

>> No.14578570

just stop touching your dick anon

>> No.14578574

>>14577342
>Why did God give us the freedom to be 'evil' and why did he conceive natural laws to enable evil?
For you to choose, and then learn from your shitty choices

>> No.14578594
File: 717 KB, 800x7200, don't masturbate.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14578594

>>14578570

>> No.14578626

>>14577342
>Why did God give us the freedom to be 'evil' and why did he conceive natural laws to enable evil?


Well, maybe you should consider that this fairy-tale invention of some guys isn't that true...

>> No.14578755
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14578755

>>14577666
Digits of elucidation!

This is true. All philosophical arguments for god amount to hiding behind negative claims. The only reasonable argument is that some things exist that are forever beyond our apprehension... But in this case, there are still no grounds to make ANY positive claims about 'god' — it remains an undefined and inacessible possibility.

If you choose to believe for the sake of the utility such belief provides, that's fine; just don't pretend you have a philosophical leg to stand on.

>> No.14578823

>>14578594
brainlet argument
Lust is embracing of bestial nature, therefore against God.

>> No.14578831

>>14578544
>Gods bad because we pray to him
epic

>> No.14578866

>>14578565
If you don't know what the best outcome is, how can you say the events unfolding now aren't leading to it? How does one appropriately apply an infinite amount of power?

>> No.14579443

>>14577613
>>14577623
Not an argument.

>> No.14579940

>>14577342
Humanity was made in God's image, so that when we were fruitful and multiplied, God would be glorified across Creation. If you notice, other animals do not have free will nor are they made in the image of God. They are "good" while man was 'very good" in Genesis.
If we were coerced into goodness, we wouldn't be glorifying God of our own volition, nor would we be made in the image of God as we would lack the critical components to fulfill that statement (body/mind/spirit vs body/mind).
God is free and does not commit evil, Adam was free and chose evil. It's not that freedom is attached to evil, so much as freedom is the OPTION to do evil.
Ironically enough, the Serpent was the first theologian as he contemplated God's existence and His will, using it to deceive Adam and Eve by convincing them that they would not die (and they did both physically and spiritually in the end). If you want to know more, read Solomon's wisdom books, Genesis, as well as some of the Pauline Epistles.

>> No.14579944

>>14577522
>choose rebellion against perfection
>wonder why things aren't perfect

>> No.14580071

How do you accept the Bible as the real word of God? What if the devil is tricking us with a fake holy book? How can you trust anything at all if there is something powerful and evil trying to ruin you?

>> No.14580072

>>14579944
What are you replying to?

>> No.14580079

>>14577606
based schizo

>> No.14580096

>>14577722
>. Complete freedom is an aspect of boundless perfection
Yet it manifests evil?

>> No.14580149

>>14580072
>what are you replying to?

>> No.14580226

>>14577342
I am not sure free will or evil exist.

I think sacrifice constructs the cosmos and wrong actions are based upon misunderstanding.

>> No.14580229

>>14578594
>things big, therefore masturbation no matter
Imagine being this big of a brainlet. I don't even believe in God, and this argument has always been pathetic. It also shows a fundamental error, as it accepts the premise of their being a God yet mocks the notion that masturbation would be of any concern to him, as if this is too small of a concern. To preface, if you die, there is absolutely nothing, there is no universe, there is pure nothingness. So, on the contrary, all of the larger observation is purely contingent on that one lower organism perceiving it, which theologically speaking would be a soul, and as such it's individual actions would invariably be more important than the vast expanse of what we have observed to be an otherwise sterile universe, which in any case is a retarded premise. The irony is that by indulging this passion, you throw away the greatness of the universe anyways to to appease a hedonistic appetite, which once habitual robs you of even reason as you will at the very least be aroused by certain stimuli thus disrupting various states of mind. Why care about the stars, their courses, the mountains whenever a quick hit of pleasure is there right before you? There is a reason why almost all progress in astronomy for thousands of years was made my celibate priests.

>> No.14580230

>>14580071
> t. High School Atheist Club President

>> No.14580248

>>14577342
because
>FREE WILL
lmao. doesn't matter that we literally can't tell the difference so it doesn't matter. the even dumber part is that every psychological study ever done confirms the idea that we are just biological slaves, that unconscious thought precedes all conscious thought/action, but at best arguably works like a control system where the conscious mind provides feedback to the system -- but given that those conscious thoughts are always preceded by feedback means consciousness is still slavery.

>> No.14580275

>>14577385
redpill me on this

>> No.14580286

>>14580248
>psychological study
Lmao.

>> No.14580418

>>14577342
god isn't real

>> No.14580436
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14580436

>>14577342
The god of this world is flawed. We were tricked into obtaining "freedom" by eating the apple from the forbidden tree.

>> No.14580482

>>14580248


Psychology, the same field where most studies are false and can't be replicated? Shut up pseudfag

>> No.14580598
File: 106 KB, 800x750, soi smug.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14580598

>>14580248
>What is the replication crisis?
>b-but muh science (is fucking awesome!!!!)
>n-no, it doesn't matter that scientific studies are all funded by governments or corporations and if the research facility wants to amke more money, then they need to say what the grant-bearers want them to! Science is impartial!

>> No.14580603

>>14577342
nothing is as it seems and we're all going to die anyway

>> No.14580669

>>14580603
What is your point?

>> No.14580697

>>14580436
i want to be annihilated but i know i have to keep going

>> No.14580956
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14580956

>>14580275
>Melkor was created by Eru Iluvatar in the Timeless Halls, at the beginning of creation. His brother was Manwë, although Melkor was greater in power and knowledge than any of the Ainur.
>Impatient with the emptiness of the Great Void outside the Timeless Halls, and desiring to create things of his own, Melkor often went forth into the Void in search of the Flame Imperishable. But the Flame was of Iluvatar and resided with him, and Melkor never discovered it. He continued to search, however, and as such was often alone and apart from his fellow Ainur. It was during these lonesome periods that Melkor began to have ideas and thoughts of his own that were not in accordance with his fellow Ainur.
>When the Ainur sang the Great Music before Eru, Melkor wove some of these alien thoughts into his music, and straightaway Discord arose around him. Some of those nearby attuned their music to his, until two musical themes were warring before the Throne. To correct the Discord, Eru introduced a Second, and then a Third Theme into the music. But Melkor succeeded in holding back the Second theme, of which Manwë was the chief instrument. The Third was the theme of Elves and Men, and while it was not overwhelmed by the Discord as the Second theme was, it too failed to correct it. When Eru brought the Music to an end, he rebuked Melkor, praising his strength but reminding him that, as an aspect of his creator's thought, anything that Melkor could bring into being ultimately had its source within Eru himself. As such, even the Discord redounded in the end to the glory of Eru's work. This rebuke shamed Melkor, but brought on anger in him as well, though he hid it. Thus when the Music was made incarnate as Arda, it was already flawed through the Discord, and immoderate heat and great cold stalked it. Melkor then took in the interest of the World and descended to it with the other Valar.

>> No.14581054
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14581054

>>14577352
Funny how the idea of American freedom leads to slavery.

True freedom brings much suffering along with it so as to overcome. The freedom most desire is not that of Independence but rather of dependence and the desire to have no internal conflict and no external restrictions. The desire to have these without the proper personal conflict it demands, leads to dependence on others to support your relaxed quest of growth.
A Funny contradiction it at first seems.

>> No.14581061

>>14577342
why are asians so fuckable? who should i read to adress this?

>> No.14581070

>>14577342
> I'm also curious about animal suffering.
watch nature documentaries

>> No.14581100
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14581100

>>14577461
Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

>> No.14581109

>>14581100
Kill yourself, reddit commenter and bugman. You ARE a bugman, chasing sensual distractions.

>> No.14581125
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14581125

>>14577723
> God gave orders. We are to follow them. Do not kill, do not bear false witness, do not steal, love and forgive, be fruitful and multiply, obedience to God, etc etc you know them.

>Like I said, you're trying to put your human moral measuring stick on God. You literally cannot.

Haha, do you really not see this?
Are these not human laws laid overtop nature?

>> No.14581186

>>14581100
Don't forget to follow her on twitter https://twitter.com/merrrica

Shame all she talks about is pot though, what a bore.

>> No.14581234

>>14581061
Tanizaki