Thoughts on this book?

[Anonymous No.14525570]

>Of the three dominant ideologies of the twentieth century--fascism, communism, and liberalism--only the last remains. This has created a peculiar situation in which liberalism's proponents tend to forget that it is an ideology and not the natural end-state of human political evolution. As Patrick Deneen argues in this provocative book, liberalism is built on a foundation of contradictions: it trumpets equal rights while fostering incomparable material inequality; its legitimacy rests on consent, yet it discourages civic commitments in favor of privatism; and in its pursuit of individual autonomy, it has given rise to the most far-reaching, comprehensive state system in human history. Here, Deneen offers an astringent warning that the centripetal forces now at work on our political culture are not superficial flaws but inherent features of a system whose success is generating its own failure.

[Anonymous No.14525746]

I haven't read his book, but I like the stuff he's written for First Things. Catholic post-liberals are one of the few groups writing politics worth reading about right now.

[Anonymous No.14525888]

>>14525570
He’s totally right. Watch it’s advocates double-down over the coming century as the mass migrations continue, economies start to stall, permissiveness increases and class and racial tensions rise as it transpires liberalism’s magic proclamations have no basis in reality. Liberalism is as awful an ideology as communism or fascism - it’s just we’re only starting to realise it now because it’s more of a slow boil.

[Anonymous No.14525981]

>>14525746
most of the things attributed to liberalism are really highly-evolved forms of egalitarianism, so I feel like Catholic post-liberals are missing the point a bit. of course liberalism has innate egalitarian tendencies, but post-liberal Catholics in many cases appear to advocate the USSR without abortion as their ideal system.

[Anonymous No.14526104]

>>14525570
It's true, too much freedom early or later become caos.

[Anonymous No.14526782]

bump

[Anonymous No.14526788]

>>14525746
>Catholic post-liberals are one of the few groups writing politics worth reading about right now

sounds boring as fuck

[Anonymous No.14526801]

>>14526788
Only if you are an extremist edgelord instead of a reasonable thinking adult.

[Anonymous No.14526841]

Ideology is a relic of the 20th century. I suggest you let go of its rotting corpse and move on to something else, niggers

[Anonymous No.14526845]

>>14526841
thanks for summing up the OP

[Anonymous No.14526920]

i hold certain metaphysical and epistemological positions concerning the relation of belief, truth, and the world in social contexts which causes me to reject many claims made by many people carte blanche. i can't take 99% of political chatter seriously because of it, but i fear that this has actually just turned me into a retard; like, it's become a thought terminating heuristic that prevents actual thinking, but at the same time i think it's correct. i just don't know anymore. i guess i should just do more reading and bang my head against a wall.

[Anonymous No.14527026]

Mixed feelings. I agree with the idea that liberalism will be it's own undoing, I just don't think it will happen any time soon. The world is more liberal than ever. Everything just gets worse and worse for the time being, sometimes it feels almost unstoppable. Maybe I'm just too pessimistic

[Anonymous No.14527030]

>>14527026
So you think we're only at the beginning of the end?

[Anonymous No.14527042]

>>14527030
Yeah. It doesn't feel like we're quite at overdrive yet. Modern liberalism seeks nothing but to make the world a blank canvas for people to experiment and adopt pre-defined identities. Progressives are universally libertine and individualist, and embrace the atomization that capitalism produces. So long as globalization continues, liberalism will grow until it eventually hits a wall of despair. The internet is a huge barrier too (it's our foremost reality at this point.)

[Anonymous No.14528243]

bump

[Anonymous No.14528255]

>>14525570
I really liked this book.

[Anonymous No.14528277]

>>14525981
I think the biggest problem of liberalism is that it has led to nihilism.
Unless you mean by egalitarianism something of the kind of "Plato and a random party girl are about as wise as each other when it comes to how to live life".

[Anonymous No.14529229]

>>14527042
You are probably right.

[Anonymous No.14529232]

>>14525570
Integration from within. I do like how Lasch is picking up steam amongst theorists and scholars.

[Anonymous No.14529301]

>>14528277
>think the biggest problem of liberalism is that it has led to nihilism.
No it hasn't, just because you disagree with its values doesn't mean it has no values

[Anonymous No.14529305]

>>14529301
Nah, he's right.

[Anonymous No.14529318]

>>14529301
He said that it has lead to nihilism, not that it has no values.

[Anonymous No.14529337]

>>14529318
Yeah but by "it has lead to nihilism" he probably means stuff like trans rights he disagrees with.

[Anonymous No.14529445]

>>14525570
68er leftism fused with cold war liberalism and corporatism into a globalist therapeutic managerial state bent on total psychological and ideological normalisation. Leftists are the end product of this system, not happy liberated individuals or empowered revolutionaries, but helpless and dependent therapeutic subjects, wracked by an indelible sense of guilt, ceaselessly talking about their ''mental illness'', detached from any meaningful tradition and clinging to hollow patient/victim/consumer identities. Identity politics leftism allows the middle class and even the elites to position themselves as the true wretched of the earth, while providing a quasi religious justification for psychiatric power and managerial governance. I think Humans are no longer at the wheel, increasingly we are charges of the technological system. Involvement with the 'culture war' and the media spectacle can only be seen a strategical liability in what are already shaping up as 'interesting times'

>>14525981
right wing liberals are for the most part uncritical of economics and technology. Locke's and Jefferson's views were the product of a very specific cultural/religious context and socioeconomic structure. Dissident protestantism, rural anglosaxon gentry, modern corporate capitalism is a different beast entirely and requires increasingly intrusive mechanisms of psychopolitical management. There is a correlation between individualist identity and bourgeoisie smallholder property structures, but it is also important to take into account the role of christian subjectivation(prayer, care of the soul), literary culture over new media etc. Modern right wing liberals display worrisome tendencies. idolatric science/technology worship, race science, obsession with new age fads like westernised ''buddhism'', transhumanism, and psychedelics. Both 'right' and 'left' serve the same technological consolidation of power.

[Anonymous No.14529461]

>>14529337
What are trans rights?

[Anonymous No.14529524]

>>14529337
>trans rights

I think the way these things are being handled is manifestly unsound and detached from any reasonable notion of the good. The transgender program is coercitive social engineering justified by pseudoscience and absolutist 'human rights' discourse. When we all know what the true motivating factor is: progressive religious fervour. After the failure of Marxist revolution, the western middle class left transfered it's messianic aspirations over to the sexual revolution and the ''marginalised'' subject. The ideal of communism and workers autonomy was replaced by the ideal of total sexual liberation, abolition of the family and 'gender' norms, which ironically would require massive extension of state power. Most ''Transgender'' people are victims of modernity, technology, propaganda, many are autistic, grew up on abusive households, they had the choice between remaining ''mentally incels'' and shunned by liberal society and embracing an identity that is celebrated by liberal society.

[Anonymous No.14529530]

>>14529461
They are legal rights associated with being trans. The right to a sex reassignment surgery is an obvious example.

[Anonymous No.14529540]

>>14529530
Sounds like cope. They belong in mental institutions.

[Anonymous No.14529547]

>>14529445
very good post

[Anonymous No.14529573]

>>14529524
Is there a particular point you want to argue about or are you going to address one million different points? We can talk about whether support for trans rights are based on pseudoscience. I, for example, think that they are completely sound and it's the conservatives who are engaged in science denial.

[Anonymous No.14529594]

>>14529530
maybe we should try thinking critically about why so many young people feel alienated from their own bodies and social selves. Left wing thought on such matters: beating the dead horse of 'bigotry' and 'sexual repression', while demanding more state enforced ideological conformity and ignoring the effects of consumerism, technology, pornography, social atomisation.

[Anonymous No.14529599]

>>14529530
positive rights have no moral basis.

[Anonymous No.14529611]

>>14525981
>USSR without abortion
pretty much. Socialist Hungary without persecution of Christianity is my ideal society.

[Anonymous No.14529612]

>>14529573
Not him but contemporary science has been politicized and perverted to insane amounts to the point where it can't be trusted blindly. Queers forced the W.H.O. to stop labelling transgenderism as a mental disorder (which it is).

[Anonymous No.14529616]

>>14529594
>maybe we should try thinking critically about why so many young people feel alienated from their own bodies and social selves.
It is a medical condition called gender dysphoria, and its pretty extensively studied. What do you want to know about it?

[Anonymous No.14529626]

>>14529599
I didn't mention positive rights, the right I referred to is the right of transitioning without government interference. If you are a libertarian maybe we agree on this.

[Anonymous No.14529643]

>>14529616
Gender is a made-up phony concept from the 50s.

[Anonymous No.14529650]

>>14529612
There has been studies on transgenderism and researchers do not think it is a mental disorder. Conservatives say that science has been politicized because they don't agree with the results, ie the feelings over facts mentality they claim to despise.

[Anonymous No.14529667]

>>14529650
>researchers do not think it is a mental disorder

Do all researchers think this or only a select few that agree with your point of view?

[Anonymous No.14529672]

>>14529650
Psycology is a psuedoscience. Of course some concepts are correct or may seem good, but as a whole it is impossible to ascertain absolute truth through subjective observation. The researchers inherent bias, or the subject being observed's bias always will affect the results.

[Anonymous No.14529678]

>>14529650

>my mind thinks I should have a vagina instead of the dick that I actually have
>not a mental illness

It obviously is a mental illness.

[Anonymous No.14529695]

>>14529650
>>14529678
Transgenderism is a mental illness in the sense that it's born out of depression and anxiety. Most tranny's kill themselves because after they transition they don't have the sense of fulfillment or fitting-in which they thought becoming female would give them. Instead it's the same old. truth of the matter is that its not that trannies want to be women, it's that they are unsatisfied with being men. my solution is to bring back castration. Let them become eunuchs,, lose their sexuality (and lower sex drive) without larping as females. It's a win-win.

[Anonymous No.14529699]

>>14529573
>science denial.

left liberals, just like right liberals will appeal to the same reified notion of 'science' as if it was a value free theological authority. Never mind the replication crisis, is/ought problems, Bill Nye did that one video, it means 'science' approves. Ultimately lgbt ideology is based on consumerism, authoritarianism and the sad retreading of the hollow failed ideals of the sexual revolution of the 60s. These people need compassion and integration with in a meaningful culture, not identity politics and chirurgical interventions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJFb_P2j48

[Anonymous No.14529700]

Brainlet in need of help here. I've allowed politics and the culture wars to consume my every waking thought. It has affected the way I see just about everything. I'm a cynical miserable piece of shit.
Now I get that none of that sounds remarkable. But it's especially bad in my case because I'm a complete retard who doesn't actually understand anything, has never read an academic history book, has a non-existent attention span, cannot articulate thoughts lucidly, cannot argue rigourously, cannot think independently, etc. Essentially I have no rational justification for my worldview, and I'm not even sure I feel GENUINE righteous anger about the things I supposedly feel angry about. At this point I'm a no-life NPC getting triggered by shit daily. What do?

[Anonymous No.14529701]

>>14529643
The distinction between gender and sex is actually pretty simple. "Sex" refers to the biological nature of being male or female. For example, whether you have a penis or a vagina is based on your sex. On the other hand, gender refers to societal expectations associated with your sex. For example, the fact that women wear skirts is based on societal norms. Another example is men being expected to pay on a date. I think most people who deny the distinction don't really understand it, once the concepts are clarified it is pretty self evident.

[Anonymous No.14529710]

>>14525746
probably because catholicism is the only legitimate, well developed, genuinely illiberal and anti-modern perspective today

[Anonymous No.14529724]

>>14529650
>[soft science] researchers [whos career relies on agreeance with predominant associations in their field] do not [publically] think it is a mental disorder.
There basis for classification is unscientific, thus we are left with 3 scenarios.
1)The entire field is unscientific and thus should be disregarded entirely
2)The researchers are inept and incapable of passing as anything remotely scientific, thus the field is compromised and should be disregarded
3)The field is politicized and thus results are prioritized over methodology, and thus the field should be disregarded
Psychology, Sociology, Psychiatry, etc. all belong in the trash. There is no scenario in which the field, and thus results, deserve a modicum of respect.

[Anonymous No.14529736]

>>14529626
>the right I referred to is the right of transitioning without government interference
No, you said
>The right to a sex reassignment surgery
which is dramatically different than the right to pursue sex reassignment. Furthermore, you know full well that trannies already have the former and their bellyaching is based on demand for people to treat them a specific way, which is a positive right.

Also Im not braindead so Im not a libertarian, thanks.

[Anonymous No.14529754]

>>14529701

So if society expected men to wear skirts and women to pay for dates, transgenders would no longer exist?

[Anonymous No.14529770]

>>14529667
Not all of them but the majority does, including the world health organization.
https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2018/10/08/navigating_the_controversial_science_on_transgender.html
>While some outspoken commentators espouse this notion, there's no good evidence to back it up. According to the American Psychological Association, "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder." Moreover, the World Health Organization no longer classifies being transgender as a mental illness.

[Anonymous No.14529778]

>>14529672
I am talking mainly about medical studies, not psychology.

[Anonymous No.14529783]

>>14529701
Sex has a scientific basis, gender had one when it was synonymous with sex and is now meaningless as it carries no concrete basis.
>gender refers to societal expectations associated with your sex. For example, the fact that women wear skirts is based on societal norms. Another example is men being expected to pay on a date.
yeah dude my gender changes because I split the bill on one date. Fuck off you literal retard.

[Anonymous No.14529782]

>>14529678
Do you know what is the definition of a mental illness as opposed to a mental condition?

[Anonymous No.14529787]

>>14529650
"transgenderism" isn't a pathology, it's an identity. gender dysphoria, what you're trying to address, is a mental illness and the world health organization only no longer treats it as such so it's no longer covered by many healthcare plans and insurances. gentle reminder that the WHO is a political organization first and foremost, not a scientific one.

[Anonymous No.14529790]

>>14529770
>Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling

Indeed! How can you seriously claim this? If I were to tell a transgender person that him being transgender was in no way distressing or disabling I would be ostracized for daring to insult them like that.

>Not all of them but the majority does

Go ahead and provide evidence for this. Its real easy to make all sorts of bold claims using phrases such as "research has shown" and "scientists agree", but we both know you just made it up. You don't know whether the majority agrees, you assume it because that's the narrative you want to tell.

[Anonymous No.14529795]

>>14529770
Significant distress is not quantifiable.
Many is a meaningless term with no statistical basis
Psuedoscience garbage >>>/lgbt/

[Anonymous No.14529796]

>>14529650
A mental illness is any sort of condition that causes psychological stress. Every single transgender claims to be experiencing distress at having the wrong body or living the wrong life. It may no longer be classified as a mental illness in the DSM-5 but this is entirely political, resulting in one of the many contradictions in transgender ideology. On the one hand it's a mental illness that requires societal resources and support, but on the other hand they don't want it to be called a mental illness because that sounds mean. So they try to have both ways.

[Anonymous No.14529800]

>>14529782

Go ahead and provide me with one that you believe excludes transgenders.

[Anonymous No.14529802]

>>14529770
> "A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder."
"Many"? So obviously not all of them. They are admitting it's a disorder here but they're still catering to some political bias (and probably pressure as well).

[Anonymous No.14529806]

>>14529778
Psycology is a field of medical practice (it shouldn't be) and the medical studies you refer to are also psycological in nature.

Please, O, enlightened one produce for me a neuroscientific explanation.

[Anonymous No.14529810]

>>14525570
I tend to see the 20th century the way John Lukacs saw it - it was a century of nationalism, not ideologies. Fascism and communism both ended up as ultra-nationalistic systems of government; "communism" as Karl Marx envisioned it never left the 19th century. Stalin wasn't a communist, he was a staunch Russian nationalist trying to keep his country under control in the face of Western imperialism. He wasn't anything particularly new for Russia either. The great victory of Bolshevism was that it threw off the Western facade that had been forced on Russia by Peter the Great, and Stalin returned Russia to the system of government of his spiritual predecessor Ivan the Terrible. And what Ivan the Terrible was to Stalin, Qin Shi Huang was to Mao. He wasn't a communist either, and China today is communist only in name.

Liberalism by contrast is not ultra-nationalism. It is anti-stateism. For what has liberalism really done, other than destroy every last remnant of the 18th century monarchy? It is individualism gone completely out of control. Liberalism has done away with the State, leaving only an essentially economic skeleton in its place. But you can still be a nationalist under liberalism - the absence of the State doesn't mean the absence of the national idea. Without the State, nationalism served as the glue that kept liberal nations like the UK and USA together. Thus the World Wars were wars of nationalism on all sides, regardless of the government, explaining how liberal countries could put up such a good fight and even win wars against extremely tight nationalist countries like Nazi Germany.

We live today in the post-nationalist age, where what is left of the State is beginning to completely fall apart in the absence of nationalism. People no longer care about the national idea, they only care about money, and money has infected the entire system to the point that every single constituent part of the system has become corrupt and rotten. It is creating a power vacuum - people are beginning to turn to people like Boris Johnson and Donald Trump who promise to smash the moneyed powers like the EU or "drain the swamp" in the case of Trump.

I blame the state of affairs today on the death of nationalism, but then nationalism was always a transitional phenomenon. It begins with the Punic Wars and ends with the crowning of Augustus. The death of nationalism cannot be blamed on liberalism specifically, for as I said the nation and the State are two different things. The nation was always going to die in favor of money. "Why Liberalism Failed" is only called such because fascism was too shortlived and communism was always a misnomer for what it actually was. He would have been better off writing a book called "What Happens In the Aftermath of Nationalism".

[Anonymous No.14529812]

>>14529796
but you dont understand, its not SIGNIFICANT distress, only enough to prompt self castration.

:)

[Anonymous No.14529820]

>>14529810
very spenglerian post

[Anonymous No.14529825]

>>14529701
They are the same shit. Regardless of society, be it Japan, Iran or Russia, men and women follow the same patterns. Scots are not a different gender just because they wear clothes that are considered lady-like in another place. That's arbitrary but biology isn't. Sex is all there is. Gender is a spook.

[Anonymous No.14529826]

>>14529810

Both Boris Johnson and Donald Trump are distinctly nationalist and got elected on nationalist ideas so your whole story makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.14529829]

>>14529812
And apparently suicide if you don't positively affirm their terrible life choices.

[Anonymous No.14529836]

I GOTTA CUT MY DICK OFFF AAAAAAHHHHHHH I'M TOTALLY NOT INSANE

[Anonymous No.14529853]

>>14529770
>transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling,

Imagine Trump tweeting that being transgender isn't distressing. You would all be in an uproar over it.

[Anonymous No.14529872]

>>14529701
Biology determines sex which is the same as "gender". Everything else is just faggots with mental disorders.

[Anonymous No.14529896]

>>14529695
Trans people often commit suicide because gender sysphoria is a bitch to deal with. However, trans people who have undergone transition have a lesser chance of committing suicide
https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/the-myth-of-post-op-regret-and-suicidality/

[Anonymous No.14529900]

>>14529826
Do you take "nationalist" to mean only "anti-globalist"? Did anyone really vote for either of those two purely for the love of their country? Or just to attack the decadence people are seeing in government? Trump's a pure narcissist, he's a nation unto himself. Remember his slogan is "Make American Great Again" not "Make America Greater Than It Ever Has Been". Only the latter phrase has nationalistic sentiment. And he clearly doesn't care at all about democracy, nor do his legions of followers. Johnson on the other hand seems like a relic of a bygone age to me, he cares very deeply about democracy and is very well educated, but that wasn't why he was elected. People simply want to put an end to the Brexist fiasco, which in my eyes is essentially a similar reason that Trump got elected - an attack on the moneyed elite.

[Anonymous No.14529919]

>>14529872
Don't you know anon, that if anyone makes any sort of outlandish identity claims like being an animal or a nigger they're nuts UNLESS it's about gender?

[Anonymous No.14529926]

>>14529810

Do you believe the concept of the "national" is not artificial? By what criteria does one belong to nation- is it race or language or something else? I ask because I'm inferring that you view nationalism as more or less a positive force- perhaps even reflective of the "natural" state of things.

[Anonymous No.14529932]

>>14525570
Liberalism and communism are distant cousins. Just see UK politics: at the XIX Century Liberals were the Whigs; in XX Century they were replaced by Labour.

[Anonymous No.14529934]

>>14529699
I have no idea what your point is, what does Hume's law have to do with my post? I am talking about medical studies associated with transgenderism, not metaethics. I guess we could talk about that too if you want.

[Anonymous No.14529942]

>>14529896
Conflates suicide attempt rate and success rate.
Does not adjust for alternative factors such as the economic status of those who can afford surgery versus those who cant

Stop posting garbage tranny

[eris !!L/ZXSJdFH9p No.14529949]

Trannies should be killed.

[Anonymous No.14529953]

>>14529926
>Do you believe the concept of the "national" is not artificial?
Considering many nations are defined by natural borders such as mountains and bodies of water, its reductionist to consider it purely artificial

[Anonymous No.14529954]

>>14529724
I am talking about medical studies, why do you bring up psychology and sociology.

[Anonymous No.14529959]

>>14529954
The only quote posted in this thread was by the American Psychology Association.

Feel free to post something else, but we both know you dont have any

[Anonymous No.14529961]

>>14529926
I try to take an unbiased stance and just discuss how I see the world. My personal opinion of nationalism is 100% pic related. But it would be foolish to dismiss nationalism just because I dislike it, because it is (was) a very real force that shaped the 20th century. As for how someone "belongs" to a nation and becomes a nationalist, I guess it is a combination of things like race and language.

[Anonymous No.14529969]

>>14529953

Nation-states are characterized by physical features, yes, however a nation can be said to exist without a state, i.e. the Kurds

[Anonymous No.14529979]

>>14529926
People with similar characteristics (race, language, religion, etc.) gathering around and forming their own nation... That's only natural, not artificial. Are you implying every nation in the world is artificial? How do you define artificial?

[Anonymous No.14529991]

>>14529783
Gender just means societal expectations associated with your sex, it's a really easy concept to understand. Do you not think that there is a difference between biological and social constructs?

[Anonymous No.14529997]

>>14529961

I certainly wouldn't argue the point that nationalism was a consequential force in the 20th century. I'm just trying to pin down its legitimacy in trying to translate nebulous things like race, ethnicity, etc. into a political reality that reflects something natural or good.

[Anonymous No.14530010]

>>14529991
>Gender just means societal expectations associated with your sex
Which are based on the characteritics of your sex... At the end of the day sex dictates everything and all the rest is cope and mental disorders. Men playing women and women playing men is stuff for the mental institution to deal with. But no we accept a crazy faggot's word because why not. Fuck this world.

[Anonymous No.14530019]

>>14529787
The world health organization is a scientific organization, the only reason you say it's primarily political is because the scientific consensus doesn't agree with your political ideology. Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, not a mental illness.

[Anonymous No.14530025]

>>14529701
the concept of 'gender' could only ever emerge and become current after humans became detached from any semblance of their former animal existence, ie. after the industrial revolution and birth control pills. Simone de Beauvoir herself admitted as a good Marxist that her feminist thought could not have emerged under previous 'material conditions'. In a liberal society, Gender norms are based on advertising, pornography, propaganda, and the need of a system that requires increasingly fungible economic units. The problem with most leftists is that they base themselves on a naive postchristian humanism(sanctity of ''autonomy'', ''equality'' and the ''individual'') while undermining its theological and philosophical basis, rejecting literate culture, classical and christian notions of virtue and selfhood and embracing unlimited social and biological engineering. Progressives are unable to put forward a tenable notion of the good and as such they can only be useful idiots for capitalism and the industrial system.

>>14529700
read philosophy, history,theology, literature. The Culture war is propaganda in Ellul's sense. total mobilisation as an end in itself is the imperative of technological society. While the USSR and Nazi germany were monotheistic systems, one leader one party one ideology, over the last decade the United States has developed into a dualistic equilibrium, which poses no threat to the real power base which is military and technological in nature.

[Anonymous No.14530032]

>>14529810
>communism was always a misnomer for
fair, but the East Block was undoubtedly an authentically socialist system. No "state capitalism" maymay, please.

[Anonymous No.14530041]

>>14529979

Nations are built on myths and hierarchical institutions more than they are built on notions of race or ethnicity which are themselves tricky concepts once you investigate deeper than the surface level things like skin color or language or the like. How people interact with one another and what groups they self-select to identify with are informed by an innumerable number of factors other than race or ethnicity. The idea of a nation as being a political reflection of a "people" becomes nebulous when you consider the fluid nature of how people live, think, etc. Nations have to be invented- they are not the manifestation of an enduring reality as nationalists would claim: that their particular nation has always existed regardless whatever other history has transpired.

[Anonymous No.14530052]

>>14529991
>it's a really easy concept to understand
claiming something doesnt simply make it true
>Gender just means societal expectations associated with your sex
then the term transgender or any other queershit is nonsense, because your gender is defined by society and not yourself. Furthermore, it would mean that your gender can change just traveling from one place to another
>Do you not think that there is a difference between biological and social constructs?
Gender is not a social construct. Even within a society a gender role is derived from biological differences. Setting a table with fork on the left is a social construct, men working physical labor because theyre stronger is not.

[Anonymous No.14530066]

>>14530041
But founding myths are essential to human nature. Man is storytelling animal. Always has been. But even then many nations don't have one of these. So when does the artificial aspect come into play? Whats artificial about them? And also let me tell you that race goes beyond "skin color."

[Anonymous No.14530084]

>>14530041
Basically this. When the various Germanic tribes coalesced into the English, French, Italians, etc, there was no national identity. Much of medieval politics amounted to impetuous nobles squabbling over personal issues of honor and inheritance. "The people", which has always been an abstraction anyway, didn't exist. It's only with the rise of the middle class and also the rise of historical consciousness during the Enlightenment that we see the beginning of nationalism. The nation is and always will be just an idea, one that was molded over centuries, and something that we could say gave the middle class a sense of belonging and community in a time when religion was on the decline.

[Anonymous No.14530085]

>>14529790
The consensus of the world health organization and the american psychologistal association is refered to in the link I provided.

[Anonymous No.14530101]

>>14529795
>Significant distress is not quantifiable.
I guess we should stop believing that painkillers alleviate pain then. We also shouldn't go to the doctir when we feel pain. Medical science btfo by anon

[Anonymous No.14530104]

>>14529991
I'm a postmodern conservative, 'gender' is a social construct because I believe every aspect of human life is becoming increasingly available to social engineering and technological manipulation. I'm just not as excited about that prospect as leftists are. I see 'transgender' people as for the most part victims of modernity, that doesn't mean they should be mistreated but neither should they be held up as the ideal for the new human being(tm). 3rd genders in the past or nonwestern cultures relied on established hierarchies and religious cultural structures. In general, I think the sexual revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

[Anonymous No.14530106]

>>14530085
Psychology is not science.

[Anonymous No.14530114]

>>14529770
>Moreover, the World Health Organization no longer classifies being transgender as a mental illness.
Based in a <1000-sampled experimentation by Mexicans

[Anonymous No.14530122]

>>14530085
>(((world health organization)))
>(((american psychologistal association)))
cringe
>Conservatives say that science has been politicized because they don't agree with the results, ie the feelings over facts mentality they claim to despise.
That's exactly what trans apologists did. They saw the facts and then bitched and forced the WHO to change the label. Probably even shady shit as well.

[Anonymous No.14530123]

>>14529796
No there is sense to it, look up the difference between mental illness and mental disorder.

[Anonymous No.14530124]

>>14530066

The need for man to have a story to order his existence doesn't make the story real. People will elevate narratives that service their desire to belong to something greater than themselves and they will shape reality to conform to this narrative because it is comforting. Many nations today do not have national myths as we would think of them because the way nations are thought of in a political sense is very much a 19th century European notion which was imposed on much of the rest of the world. And I'll concede that reducing race to the concept of skin color was a bit reductionist, my only point is that race is an incredibly tricky concept and does not comport the neat histories that nationalisms offer.

[Anonymous No.14530133]

>>14530084

I agree with much of this, nicely put.

[Anonymous No.14530135]

>>14529802
Identifying as trans is not a mental disorder, HOWEVER gender dysphoria is very much a mental disorder, it just isn't a mental illness because of technical reasons.

[Anonymous No.14530141]

>>14530123
I'm not looking up anything. If you have something to say then say it. I recognize no meaningful difference between an illness and a disorder.

[Anonymous No.14530150]

>>14529806
Do you also need a neuroscientific causal explanation of intelligence before you are convinced that we can think?

[Anonymous No.14530158]

>>14530025
>read philosophy, history,theology, literature
I'm no longer capable of being awed by the scale and depth of history. I can only experience these feelings when high. Is this just depression or am I fucked for life?

[Anonymous No.14530162]

>>14529825
>They are the same shit
>Gender is a spook
If sex and gender is the same thing, but gender is a spook, does that also mean that sex is a spook? I think you might be slightly confused.

[Anonymous No.14530164]

Only ideas matter. Gets ushered off stage by other root races. Haha just kidding.

Are whites actually evil or stupid?

[Anonymous No.14530173]

>>14529445
Both right liberals and left liberals unconsciously draw authority from christian theological notions, all while undermining those very notions from opposite sides edging close to theologicopolitical conflict and the drawing of friend enemy distinctions via the breaking of taboos like the sanctity of the human form, 'vulgarity of biopolitics'. Political Catholicism makes sense in an age marked by increasing technological control over human life.

[Anonymous No.14530178]

>>14530150
Whether or not we can think doesn't cause people to mutilate themselves or take hormones.

[eris !!L/ZXSJdFH9p No.14530180]

Isn't there a containment board for this faggotry?

[Anonymous No.14530182]

>>14529445
The end goal of left wing liberalism is a homogeneous deracinated populace who can act as perfectly fungible cogs in the economic system. No person is allowed to have any cultural or religious values that clash with liberal values, they are to be relegated purely to the private sphere and are treated as accessories by which a person can choose to differentiate themselves.

Unfortunately humans don't work like that and you can't keep a multicultural multiethnic society together just by a common commitment to liberal values. Thus you need the State to enforce co-operation by law via non-discrimination bills that attempt to prevent people from forming natural communities. In the long run even that isn't going to work and the tensions between the varying groups is going to result in most western nations Balkanizing.

[Anonymous No.14530186]

>>14529853
Being trans might be very distressing, but this is because of gender dysphoria and difficulties with social acceptability. Being a black man in Nazi Germany would probably be pretty distressing, but that doesn't mean that blackness is a mental disorder, amirite

[Anonymous No.14530191]

>>14530162
No. Sex is the only thing that matters. Gender doesn't exist. They are the same thing, not separate entities. Gender as a meme separate thing is what's a spook.

[Anonymous No.14530192]

>>14526920
I'm familiar with this too.

[eris !!L/ZXSJdFH9p No.14530197]

>>14530186
Your example would work if the black man was claiming to be an Aryan in the middle of Nazi Germany.

[Anonymous No.14530198]

>>14529872
Do you think that women wear skirts because of they have a vagina or because of societal expectations?

[Anonymous No.14530236]

>>14530186
>tfw no autistic crossdresser gf

[Anonymous No.14530238]

>>14529942
>Conflates suicide attempt rate and success rate.
Oops!
>Does not adjust for alternative factors such as the economic status of those who can afford surgery versus those who cant
Yeah the lower suicide rate is obviously 100% about economical factors, even though we have studies about the psychological impact of transitioning being overwhelmingly positive with 2% regrets, cope harder my dude

[Anonymous No.14530246]

>>14530198
Who cares. Because they like it. Like Scotsmen. Notions of whats male and female vary depending on the culture but their core is consistent and they overlap on every aspect that matters. Sex dictates everything.

[Anonymous No.14530247]

>>14530186
Why do leftists try to reduce every personal failing to some kind of unfairness or prejudice on the part of society?

[Anonymous No.14530252]

>>14530247
What else can a materialist do?

[Anonymous No.14530260]

>>14530158
stop smoking weed

[Anonymous No.14530276]

>>14530247
It's their drill. "Am I crazy for wanting to cut my dick off and take drugs to simulate I'm a woman even though I look like an uncanny valley tier monstrosity?! No, it's the society!"

[Anonymous No.14530295]

>>14530238
its never okay to ignore variables
psychology isnt scientific

[Anonymous No.14530298]

>>14530025
>>14530025
The concept of gender is just the concept of societal norms applied to men and women. Everyone agrees that people are made by a combination of their biology and the society they live in, but when we apply this innocent distinction to men and women we have crazy mental gymnastics about how biology and culture is the same thing

[Anonymous No.14530312]

>>14530298
Culture comes from biology. You're just too dense to see it.

[Anonymous No.14530314]

>>14530247
The presumption of human equality demands that failures are externally influenced.

[Anonymous No.14530395]

>>14530052
>then the term transgender or any other queershit is nonsense, because your gender is defined by society and not yourself.
Yeah but the point is that some people aren't comfortable with their gender (that is, the societal expectations associated with their biological sex) so they prefer people referring to them differently. That's what the pronoun thing is about, you need other people to recognize your identity, otherwise what's the point right.
>Gender is not a social construct. Even within a society a gender role is derived from biological differences. Setting a table with fork on the left is a social construct, men working physical labor because theyre stronger is not.
First off even if gender roles were 100% derived from biology it wouldn't invalidate the distinction, because gender roles are still a different thing from the biological reality they are based on. But even that is only partially true. Some of the norms we associate with sex have little to nothing to do with biology. One example is how men and women dress, which differs in different places and times while the biology is the same. There is no biological reason why women wear dresses, this is entirely a cultural thing. Men usually have short hair but this again has nothing to do with biology, the Spartans for example had long hair. I think the argument for the distinction is pretty watertight.

[Anonymous No.14530396]

>>14530260
Why? I only do it occasionally and it actually allows me to feel things.

[Anonymous No.14530410]

>>14525570
>heh we'll just solve liberalism's problems with more liberalism

[Anonymous No.14530449]

>>14530104
Actually you don't need to be a postmodernist to think that gender and sex are different, this is just the nature/culture distinction applied to men and women. Postmodernists would presumably make the stronger claim that even sex is a social construct. I am an Empiricist myself, I think postmodernism is a completely irrational philosophical position. I like the sexual revolution and trans rights though, freedom and sex are fun.

[Anonymous No.14530456]

>this looks like it could be an interesting thread
>derailed into obligatory tranny discussion
You people are living rent free in each others heads.

[Anonymous No.14530463]

>>14530395
You're essentially saying gender is bullshit and implying sex is all that matters across the different cultures. You're right. But roles do come from biology. Women take care of the offspring while men provide for their women. It all stems from that principle.

[Anonymous No.14530466]

>>14530395
If you recognize that a persons personality or gender is discordant with sex or biological reality, and this condition is causing distress, the only effective treatment can be helping them come to accept who they truly are. You can't help a patient come to terms with a mistaken belief while simultaneously encouraging them to embrace the mistaken belief. What sense does it make to change the body rather than address the disconnection at the psychological level?

[Anonymous No.14530491]

>>14530395
It doesn't matter if there is no biological explanation for the way women and men present themselves. Throughout history there have been a multitude of different ways of expressing your gender. In our current society men wear shirts and pants, women wear dresses. This is an affirmation of the biological reality, not inherent to gender or sex. Because I have a penis, I dress like a man.

To try and change this in a forced and unnatural way does nobody any good. You are arguing for an individual who identifies as a male but wears dresses for some reason, not a male who identifies as female and tries futily to become one.

[Anonymous No.14530692]

>>14530122
That's right, every time the scientific consensus disagrees with your political views the (((facts))) have been altered. Every time they agree with your politics, the studies are unbiased and objective.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Anonymous No.14530747]

>>14530141
>I'm not looking up anything. If you have something to say then say it. I recognize no meaningful difference between an illness and a disorder.
If you don't know the difference between a mental illness and a mental disorder, and you don't care to learn about it, could it be the case that you are not the most qualified person to talk about whether transgenderism or gender dysphoria is a mental illness?

[Anonymous No.14530773]

>>14530692
Psychology.
is.
not.
scientific.

[Anonymous No.14530814]

>>14530747
Stop with the passive aggressive shit, my qualifications are of no matter and I made no claim about them. This is a place for talking to people so if you're not capable of expressing your ideas you're wasting your time. Telling somebody to look something up is not interesting. Whether or not there is a technical difference between an illness and disorder is irrelevant to the conversation. That's what I mean when I say there's no meaningful difference. A person suffering any sort of psychological condition which causes distress is afflicted with a mental illness by definition.

If you disagree then try to act like a human and explain your views.

[Anonymous No.14530830]

>>14529611
Gross.

True Christians support el caudillo franco.

[Anonymous No.14530840]

>>14530830
>Catholics
>true Christian
Nicely meme'd bro

[Anonymous No.14531159]

>>14529445
There are a lot of ways in which you can be a subject of the State. Why are we being therapy'd into the categories we are? You could just as well instill into people that a good Christian is someone who carries out their job diligently and has a nuclear family, for example, and there'd be a bit less inertia there compared to what we witnessed in '68. Can't see any reason other than egalitarianism, desu

[Anonymous No.14531307]

>>14531159
the nuclear family model was already product of modernisation, replacing earlier extended arrangements. It owes its existence to early 20th century progressive social workers, post war suburban accomodations and economic models such as the one income household (which was backed by a fordist mode of production and bretton woods era keynesian protectionism). The same forces of modernity which created the nuclear family turned against it, self expressive consumer individualism is way more profitable in a post industrial economy were there are increasingly fewer meaningful jobs to be carried out

[Anonymous No.14531373]

>>14531307
It was present by the 13th century in England. I only cite this because I'm from the US, you can replace it with your preferred family model in another country.

[Anonymous No.14531406]

>>14526920
Same

[Anonymous No.14531412]

>>14529301
Liberalism has led most people to become what Plato predicted 2300 years ago

>Neither does he receive or let pass into the [mind] any true word of advice; if any one says to him that some pleasures are the satisfactions of good and noble desires, and others of evil desires, and that he ought to use and honour some and chastise and master the others --whenever this is repeated to him he shakes his head and says that they are all alike, and that one is as good as another.”

This is what I mean by nihilism.

[Anonymous No.14531423]

>>14527042
True, but doesn’t it tend towards a implicit conformity while explicitly calling for diversity/individuality?

[Anonymous No.14531513]

>>14525746
t. Conservative Catholic

[Anonymous No.14531521]

>>14525888
Devils advocate: Liberalism isn't near as violent as Communism and Fascism were.

[Anonymous No.14531647]

>>14531412
But there is a "noble" desire, which is the desire to work towards increasing autonomy for those in society with submaximal autonomy, to promote equality of previously unequal groups, and to seek inclusion of groups currently outside of society.

[Anonymous No.14531840]

>>14531647
You have no idea what he means by desires or what autonomy truly is.

[Anonymous No.14531880]

>>14531840
Why doesn't the desire for equality, or for more personal autonomy, count as a desire?

[Anonymous No.14531893]

>>14525981
In a weird way I feel that on one level the USSR was more accountabile than the west.
Obviously they were repressive, would shoot you for dissent - but when the govt literally couldn't deliver the goods, people overthrew it. Modern Liberal society is much more effective at distributing (and thus avoiding) accountability.

In the USSR if you don't get your bread, you can (Theoretically) ask the bread shop man, and he'll say he doesn't know - but the truck man does - and the truck man will say he hasn't been to the bread factory in ages, and the bread factory manager will let the angry mob know that he'd like to make bread but hasn't got any wheat, so you phone up the collective farm and it turns out they haven't gotten any resources from the central planning ministry this year and that's why they haven't grown wheat, so the mob storms the central planning ministry for doing a bad job.
Obviously in practice people didn't follow this chain - it was done through semi-democratic elections, more general protests, a failed coup - but theoretically you can do it.

If you can't get bread in our market-liberal society, it's because you don't have money - immediately the blame can be put on you at step 1 - if all the bread has been bought by someone else, that's just the way it is. if the shop doesn't buy bread from the bread factory, that's their right - if the bread factory converts to being a car factory, that's none of your business. if the farm decides to grow nothing and just enjoy rising land prices, that's their right, and to respond to this by storming government offices would be crazy even if you could form an angry mob - but you won't, because rather than forcing you into social ties to get by (or leaving natural ties alone) it's atomized you. you'll die starving, tweeting inanely about your nostalgic memories of childhood breads

i'm not outright advocating central planning here - my concern is accountability. even ultimate, democratic accountability doesn't work. (I'd accept a theoretical case from social democrats that from the 50s-70s you could ultimately blame the leader of the government if you don't get your bread - but it was definitively established in the 80s that in a market transaction like that the government has no business interfering. At best, it can give you a means tested drug tested mandatory CV writing course contingent welfare payment to help you buy bread, but if the price of bread is high there's no place for controls or state-constructed bread factories...)

actually the slight contradiction i'd place at the heart of this line of thinking is mixing the nrx reluctance to have politics and preferring individual direct accountability (but not their market preference, at best i distrust markets. that doesn't mean i like the alternatives.) with some nostalgia for the political accountability of the era of semi-meaningful democracy based more on economic than cultural concerns. (less so in the US, but still.)

[Anonymous No.14531926]

>>14529701
The gender concept only exists as a roundabout way of deconstructing sex. You will notice that lgbt activists always treat them as synonymous until questioned.

[Anonymous No.14531929]

>>14531521
not yet, but it will be when it needs to defend itself, and the liberal state has the benefit of the surveillance state and high tech control architectures to compel its members forward

[Anonymous No.14531943]

>>14527042
>make the world a blank canvas for people
change people to capital and you have an accurate statement

[Anonymous No.14531944]

>>14531521
What evidence is there for this? Liberal states seem to simply externalize the violence. Unless we are counting civil wars. Are we?

[Anonymous No.14531949]

>>14531893
>In a weird way I feel that on one level the USSR was more accountabile than the west.
The reality is that the West is more comfortable than the USSR ever was, so there's no real motivation to try to change things. This will not always be the case. Its propaganda system is also more effective.

> but you won't, because rather than forcing you into social ties to get by (or leaving natural ties alone) it's atomized you. you'll die starving, tweeting inanely about your nostalgic memories of childhood breads
No one is even close to starving in the West. People don't rebel because they don't want to lose social status or their job. It's just not worth it.

The biggest problem we have is that the ruling element in the West holds stupid beliefs. They would hold stupid beliefs no matter what the political system is. We have to overcome stupid beliefs.

[Anonymous No.14531995]

>>14526920
Based.

[Anonymous No.14532055]

>>14531949
>The reality is that the West is more comfortable than the USSR ever was
I'm not sure this is true when you factor in how we regress to the mean on a lot of things. If you suddenly become rich (and don't blow it) your baseline happiness levels will reconfigure after about a year and you won't be gaining any special pleasure from drinking expensive wine rather than cheap wine. Our material prosperity is much greater, but we often distribute it bizarrely. we can practically guarantee everyone has a smartphone, but we can't guarantee people aren't going short of the necessities. you can blame the people, but it overlooks a complex chain where you need the phone to get your shitty mcdonalds job so that the boss can whatsapp you your hours.
>No one is even close to starving in the West
People do starve. Sure, we can say it's an isolated incident here and there, but it happens. Blaming the people who starve for their own decisions is an easy way out compared to the fun and games that can be had trying to navigate the modern welfare system. One of the ironies (at least in Britain) being that they've made it so hard to get disability payments in some areas that they've basically guaranteed any genuinely disabled person will slip up and make themselves look ineligible, while a cheat has all the time and power in the world to game the questions...
But there are also the general annoyances of life: Housing in areas with work is often ruinously expensive, but people just accept it even if they can barely afford it. Nobody is building enough houses to set the market right, and nobody's doing anything about that. After WW2 there were crash housebuilding programs (and in Britain they build houses desirable enough that people bought them given the chance, they weren't all commieblocks) but we're content to sit and do nothing. Even in the UK the price of a University education is far out of proportion to what the University actually pays in teaching costs, in the US the difference (at private colleges anyway) becomes obscene - but of course as most people see it a college degree is the new high school diploma, they go for it anyway.
You can blame the people in these cases obviously - live with your parents, move to one of the states with a population smaller than Belgium, go to trade school, etc - but that's pretty much it. People have been given responsibility for their actions without really being empowered to make use of it. I'm not arguing against personal responsibility - but we're clearly doing something wrong to set it up this way.

>the ruling element in the West holds stupid beliefs
That's true. It's baffling to look at the political class of most modern nations. Say what you will about their predecessors, but were they really this bad even 20 years ago? In presentation if not in substance they've been in freefall since at least then. Further back it seems unambiguous that they were better. Not good by any means, but better. What happened?

[Anonymous No.14532064]

>>14531880
There is no point in trying to discuss with you. You don't even try to understand what is the point I was making. Or if you did, you pretend you didn't.
You are just a dishonest ideologue who wants to score progressive points.

This may give you likes on Twitter, but this is not Twitter.

[Anonymous No.14532077]

>>14531521
100 million vs 3 billion.
I don't see the equality in that.

[Anonymous No.14532082]

>>14531949
>The reality is that the West is more comfortable than the USSR ever was
there's a lot of alienation in the West. It's not that they lack food, but mentally they suffer. Case in point: Incel phenomena.

[Anonymous No.14532130]

>>14531949
Democracy does a lot of work to obscure power, individual politicians or parties can always abdicate responsibility for broken promises and elections work as a release valve for political frustration. We'd actually be better off with a clear and permanent authority that can obviously only be removed through violence.

[Anonymous No.14532171]

>>14532082
>incels
State propaganda discourages committed relationships, discourages marriage, encourages deferring relationships, mostly for the sake of female "empowerment". Why is this empowering? Who knows.

This doesn't even make sense for the bourgeoisie if you think about it, because a man motivated by caring for a family is more likely to work harder, and will provide replacement population to buy more things. We have problems with both of these, and our best solution right now is to borrow money to give it to foreigners so they can do it instead.

>>14532055
>housing
It's illegal to build more housing in many of the most "progressive" areas.
>university costs
University is mostly a form of signaling competence. There are more direct and inexpensive ways of doing this, however, they're a Civil Rights violation in the US. In fact, the SAT may soon be ruled a Civil Rights violation in California.

>That's true. It's baffling to look at the political class of most modern nations. Say what you will about their predecessors, but were they really this bad even 20 years ago? In presentation if not in substance they've been in freefall since at least then. Further back it seems unambiguous that they were better. Not good by any means, but better. What happened?
Egalitarianism, imo. People who want power must go through the university system. People in power today believe what they learned in college. The most left-liberal elements among them go on to become professors. Run this cycle over a few decades, it explains a lot.

[Anonymous No.14532234]

>>14530124
>The need for man to have a story to order his existence doesn't make the story real.
If the story is real to man it's real. 2000 years ago geocentrism was real. 4000 years ago the Earth was flat. Everything you believe is "real" until it's not. What's real to you wasn't real 2000 years ago and won't be real in 2000 years, it won't be real to aliens or mole-men or dogs. You're smart enough to realize our relationship with the noumenal.

>Many nations today do not have national myths
Name one?

[Anonymous No.14532264]

>>14532055
I don't disagree directly with anything you said but I will say its difficult to compare directly the USSR and the west. As everyone may recognize the US had more material wealth than the USSR. Before technology atomized the west and in my opinion destroyed interpersonal relationships and the traditional community hierarchy, I think the west was much better to live in. Men who had faced adversity received their just reward. Over time comfort and excess fractured the individuals reliance on the tribe and therefore reduced the individuals love and devotion for such a structure. Hedonism is the logical end for a non-thinking individual and the majority of people don't think much. This is what we have in the west. Almost everyone I know is a hedonist in some form and also an egoist. Most people value the individual more than the whole and not just the virtue and nature of that instead its outside perception and what it gets them. Instead of helping someone you know and love most would rather research which charity is 'best,' so they can discuss it and make it known what causes they stand for.

The sad part of this is that the whole world is infected this way, and I'm not sure many men in other parts of the world got to enjoy 1950s US.

[Anonymous No.14532265]

>>14532171
>This doesn't even make sense for the bourgeoisie if you think about it, because a man motivated by caring for a family is more likely to work harder, and will provide replacement population to buy more things.
The bourgeoisie obviously believe that foreigners and natives are interchangeable. From this it logically flows that you want to maximize the consumer potential of your native population by keeping them single and childless while importing foreigners to keep replacement rate.

[Anonymous No.14532297]

>>14532265
>The bourgeoisie obviously believe that foreigners and natives are interchangeable.
Hard to see how they sustain this belief.

>From this it logically flows that you want to maximize the consumer potential of your native population by keeping them single and childless while importing foreigners to keep replacement rate.
Most of those people are consuming with welfare dollars. Men buy less stuff when single, and don't work as hard, and moms buy lots of stuff for their kids. There's also a whole refugee industry where the government gives money to certain businesses as contractors to feed, house, employ, etc. them. I don't deny that they truly believe the things you outlined, to me, it's just another example of our ruling elements holding stupid beliefs.

[Anonymous No.14532332]

>>14532265
Exactly this. Sexual revolution and feminism means the labor force is doubled. Men are also valued less for their ability to provide. Women are better consumers. I am willing to bet there is a correlation to how much money a man makes and his self-control and ability to not overspend. Destruction of the family unit and an overemphasis on independence leads to children leaving the home sooner, unmarried. Corporate excess allows employment to exist not in order with how much the position generates but instead with an individuals ability to conform to arbitrary standards (take on debt for an education, lease a nice car, go out to a trendy restaurant with your coworkers)

[Anonymous No.14532364]

>>14532297
>Hard to see how they sustain this belief.
True individualism is anti-scientific.

>Men buy less stuff when single
Okay cool lets make them effeminate that way they buy their fruit loops and pickle rickers, if we're lucky they'll become gays or trannies and adopt the spending habits of single women.

>moms buy lots of stuff for their kids
And single women don't buy lots of useless shit? Most girls I know my age (early 20s) live pay-check to pay-check buying clothes and shoes and handbags and makeup.

>>14532332
Families save money for their children's futures and saving money is bad because it means that money isn't being spent by workers.

[Anonymous No.14532388]

>>14532332
>Sexual revolution and feminism means the labor force is doubled.
Most women performed some kind of labor at least in the Anglosphere, not working was basically the privilege of moderately well-off women. Somehow, they still managed to have kids. Furthermore, birth rates collapsed first among the better-off, not the working class. The most hard-working women today in the US are probably poor Mexicanas, who probably have the highest birth rate as well, except for anomalous groups like the Amish.

>Men are also valued less for their ability to provide.
State plays a big role in this through affirmative action initiatives for women. Many sectors have required continuous browbeating to increase the female share of their labor force.

>Women are better consumers.
They used to buy things for their kids, now they buy wine and dog food. Maybe good for Big Wine, but again, the population isn't replacing itself.

>Destruction of the family unit and an overemphasis on independence leads to children leaving the home sooner, unmarried.
Kids are living at home longer than ever but it's worst in Southern Europe.

[Anonymous No.14532398]

>>14529445
>Leftists are the end product of this system, not happy liberated individuals or empowered revolutionaries, but helpless and dependent therapeutic subjects, wracked by an indelible sense of guilt, ceaselessly talking about their ''mental illness'', detached from any meaningful tradition and clinging to hollow patient/victim/consumer identities.


What is Therapy but a secular confessional?

[Anonymous No.14532400]

>>14532364
If they were married, and the State encouraged childbirth instead of being a fur parent, or forgoing childbirth to save the planet, or to vacation, or whatever, the money would go towards childcare instead of handbags.

[Anonymous No.14532423]

>>14526920

What if you've just reached the end of the line and realized there's nothing to know?

[Anonymous No.14532449]

>>14531521
Among themselves. The liberal revolutionaries of France were more violent than the monarchists, and I say that as someone who unironically supports lynching absolute monarchists if they were a credible threat today. To simplify it:

Communism's bloodletting is almost entirely internalized. External expressions of violence have typically been communist factions of the victim populace inviting in the larger communist ally to help them in a civil war/against an insurrection. The very nature of communism focuses on that internal social conflict of the classes. You can juxtapose that onto an international stage (the enemy being the stooge of the bourgeois) but given no state is entirely bourgeois you end up with the same fifth column dynamic.
Fascism's bloodletting is external and internal.
Liberalism's bloodletting is entirely externalized. It's quite happy to present existential villains to slaughter. Liberalism is wont to see anyone who is illiberal as barbarians, atavistic savages who are beyond the pale of polite civilizeid warfare. And since liberalism will rarely (almost never) fight itself, that means any enemy of liberalism is always illiberal and thus always a savage for whom total war is necessary. I cannot name a single geopolitical foe the British or US have had which was not cast in such a lens. Maybe the Argies, that's it.

[Anonymous No.14532450]

>>14532400
You'd have every woman leaving the workforce for months at a time for every kid they had. You'd have couples spending money on low-margin goods and services like childcare and baby food instead of the iPhone 666. You'd have couples saving money in low-risk, low-return assets for college instead of taking a cruise to charming Haiti. Stop upholding economic arguments as the be-all end-all if you want to defend socio-cultural normalcy. Quality of life isn't measured in dollar signs.

[Anonymous No.14532451]

>>14532388
>some kind of labor
part time and if full time not the type of job to provide for their husband and their 2 kids.

>State plays a big role in this through affirmative action initiatives for women. Many sectors have required continuous browbeating to increase the female share of their labor force.

The first step is to remove importance of the man and the second is to enforce it by legislation

>Women are better consumers

This is obviously anecdotal but I sell cars and most men are content to drive a regular car, and there is a lot more men who are content to drive a shitbox than women. The amount of women who convinced their husband to spend $85k on an escalade vs $65k on a tahoe is significant in my experience.

>Kids are living at home longer than ever but it's worst in Southern Europe.

I think people got married and moved out and started families a lot earlier and often than now. I think there are more people with roomates in overpriced real estate spending all of their money on their monthly bills in order to have as much casual sex as possible.

[Anonymous No.14532485]

>>14532450
>You'd have every woman leaving the workforce for months at a time for every kid they had.
Productivity would probably go up.

>You'd have couples spending money on low-margin goods and services like childcare and baby food instead of the iPhone 666.
Mexicans still manage to get iPhones somehow lol

>You'd have couples saving money in low-risk, low-return assets for college instead of taking a cruise to charming Haiti.
This would actually be good because it would lead to a stock market boom.

>Stop upholding economic arguments as the be-all end-all if you want to defend socio-cultural normalcy.
What I'm trying to argue here is, a market economy doesn't necessarily cause the undesirable phenomena we see today in society, and in fact it's easy to imagine a society which instills more beneficial beliefs in the population without abolishing the market economy. However, this won't happen, because the ruling elements are drunk on their own koolaid about autonomy and equality.

[Anonymous No.14532503]

>>14532485
>It's easy to imagine 21st century Western capitalism that doesn't select for the things we're currently seeing it select for but it that won't happen because of 21st century Western capitalism
lad...

[Anonymous No.14532516]

>>14532503
The key element here is "Western".

[Anonymous No.14532522]

>>14532516
It's a bit of tautology anon

[Anonymous No.14532545]

>>14532423
If you can't know anything, then how can you know it is the case that you can't know anything?

[Anonymous No.14532546]

>>14532423
I've studied now Philosophy
And Jurisprudence, Medicine,--
And even, alas! Theology,--
From end to end, with labor keen;
And here, poor fool! with all my lore
I stand, no wiser than before:
I'm Magister--yea, Doctor--hight,
And straight or cross-wise, wrong or right,
These ten years long, with many woes,
I've led my scholars by the nose,--
And see, that nothing can be known!
That knowledge cuts me to the bone.
I'm cleverer, true, than those fops of teachers,
Doctors and Magisters, Scribes and Preachers;
Neither scruples nor doubts come now to smite me,
Nor Hell nor Devil can longer affright me.

For this, all pleasure am I foregoing;
I do not pretend to aught worth knowing,
I do not pretend I could be a teacher
To help or convert a fellow-creature.
Then, too, I've neither lands nor gold,
Nor the world's least pomp or honor hold--
No dog would endure such a curst existence!
Wherefore, from Magic I seek assistance,
That many a secret perchance I reach
Through spirit-power and spirit-speech,
And thus the bitter task forego
Of saying the things I do not know,--
That I may detect the inmost force
Which binds the world, and guides its course;
Its germs, productive powers explore,
And rummage in empty words no more!

[Anonymous No.14532551]

>>14532516
In other words, if we lived under Western Communism somehow, the exact same phenomena would happen. Western Communism will inevitable become liberal, just as Russian Communism becomes Red Tsarism, Chinese Communism becomes oriental despotism, Latin American Communism becomes left-populism, and so on.

[Anonymous No.14532737]

>>14532546
>Positively F A U S T I A N

[Anonymous No.14532750]

>>14532545

That’s why, like Socrates and the hedgeheg, I only know one thing.

[Anonymous No.14532936]

>>14531423
yes, because all the identities that liberalism advocates for people to adopt and experiment have been turned into capital. liberalism and capitalism are too intertwined for liberalism to decline as soon as authors like Deneen believe it will.

[Anonymous No.14533340]

>>14530198
Because vagina

[Anonymous No.14533610]

Haven't read it, but does he seriously argue that liberalism's ideal of equality is contradicted by material inequality?

[Anonymous No.14534431]

bump

[Anonymous No.14534690]

>>14529530
experience has shown lgbt is indeed a slippery slope to totalitarianism and the normalisation of pedophilia. the only reasonable choice is to keep these people in the closet, ostracise them and deprive them of rights as soon as they start with the propaganda and identity politics.

[Anonymous No.14535332]

>>14534690
This is a completely irrational argument, even if it was true that the lgbt movement as a whole supports authoritarianism and pedophilia it wouldn't logically follow than any type of lgbt advocacy necessarily leads to these others type of advocacy, this a slippery slope fallacy, used by idiots and demagogues. Secondly, the assertion that the lgbt movement is in favor of autoritarianism and pedophilia is completely imaginary, and shows you have no understanding of reality outside of your /pol/ bubble.

[Anonymous No.14535768]

>>14526920
Stop stealing my personality thanks.

[Anonymous No.14535882]

>>14529926
Herodotus got the definition right in the fifth century
>the kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common, and the likeness of our way of life - Hdt 8.144

[Anonymous No.14535972]

>>14533610
No that would be a boring take

[Anonymous No.14535980]

>>14535332
Slippery slopes are real, calling it a fallacy is a non argument

[Anonymous No.14535990]

>>14529530
>the RIGHT to anything

[Anonymous No.14536192]

>>14535980
Slippery slopes are real, but pointing out that something can lead to something bad if pushed to extremes is not an argument, it's a rhetorical technique that can be used to demonize anything. You can argue for example that having a minimal state like the Libertarians want is a slippery slope to fascism by increasing state power one step at a time. Of course this might happen, but it is a non-sequitur as a critique of Libertarianism. Also you completely ignored my criticism of the alleged lgbt support of authoritarianism and pedophilia as delirium with no basis in reality.

[Anonymous No.14536222]

>>14531521
Liberalism insulates itself from having to perform violence directly, and instead outsources its many violent excesses to other countries.

WWII could quite plausibly be seen as Liberal Capitalism manipulating Communism and Fascism into murdering each other in the tens of millions while they covertly benefit. The end result: The only world order that can possibly rise in the aftermath is the Anglo-American naval hegemony. Fascism is utterly destroyed, Communism is left blubbering about how the Liberals are actually Fascists (thus missing the entire point, rendering them aimless and weak) and in a few short generations they are simply ground down and crushed.

The Communist fantasy that everyone who opposes them is a fascist is actually proof that Liberalism has dominated them entirely. Liberalism could kick your mother in the ribs until she shit blood and died, and a Communist would come up and say "See? Fascism!" as though they themselves cannot recognize Liberalism as the most violent and aggressive ideology to ever exist.

[Anonymous No.14536912]

>>14535972
Yeah I agree. I'm glad he doesn't.

[Anonymous No.14536937]

>>14531880
equality =/= more personal autonomy

[Anonymous No.14537450]

>>14531521
Well, liberalism doesn't hold militaristic struggle as one of its core tenets

[Anonymous No.14537500]

>>14537450
Neither does fascism.

[Anonymous No.14537580]

>>14529810
>Liberalism by contrast is not ultra-nationalism. It is anti-stateism. For what has liberalism really done, other than destroy every last remnant of the 18th century monarchy? It is individualism gone completely out of control. Liberalism has done away with the State, leaving only an essentially economic skeleton in its place.
What's the historical parallel here outside of the West? XII Dynasty Egypt was an absolute State, and it rallied against the Baronage of the city. Sesostris III abolished the feudal nobility, effectively paving the way for the Second Intermediate Period of the Hyksos in the following century.

Greece and Rome also have these periods.

[Anonymous No.14537630]

>>14529820
>very spenglerian post
Point being?

[Anonymous No.14537641]

>>14525570
LOL I literally just started reading this book

[Anonymous No.14537779]

>>14529611
You sure about that? How much do you know about socialist Hungary?

[Anonymous No.14538027]

>>14537500
>And above all, Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the
utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism—born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision—the alternative of life or death. Thus a doctrine which is founded upon this harmful postulate of peace is hostile to Fascism.
>For Fascism, the growth of Empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; any renunciation is a sign of decay and of death.
~mussolini, the political and social doctrine of fascism
>The war was seen as a way to cement the nation as only war can, creating a single thought for all citizens, a single feeling, a single passion, and a common hope, an anxiety lived by all, day by day— with the hope that the life of the individual might be seen and felt as connected, obscurely or vividly, with the life that is common to all—but which transcends the particular interests of any. The war was sought in order to bring the nation together—in order to render it a true nation, real, alive, capable of acting, and ready to make itself valued and of consequence in the world—to enter into history with its own personality, with its own form, with its own character, with its own originality, never again to live on the borrowed culture of others and in the shadow of those great people who make history. To create, therefore, a true nation, in the only way the creation of every spiritual reality is undertaken: with effort and through sacrifice.
~gentile, the origins and doctrine of fascism
in both mythic origin and perceived destiny fascism saw militaristic violence as essential

[Anonymous No.14538099]

Because of the anime picture and that there's more green text than regular text, I'm not reading a word of this shit.

[Anonymous No.14538268]

>>14538099
you can lead a horse to water...
i guess aristotle was right about the primacy of ethos

[Anonymous No.14538269]

>>14526920
based post

[Anonymous No.14538296]

>>14536192
all the ''lgbt' people I have come upon either online or offline have been fanatical ideologues with no personality beyond victimhood

[Anonymous No.14538342]

>>14526920
Isn't this what Plato meant by returning to the cave?

[Anonymous No.14538364]

>>14538296
You haven't met any lgbt person outside tumblr, twitter, and Sargon videos don't lie

[Anonymous No.14538378]

>>14525570
>Of the three dominant ideologies of the twentieth century--fascism, communism, and liberalism--only the last remains.
this is an outright lie. Communism still remains and is a destructive force the same as ever (communism has never been a basis for a society, just a means for destroying society) and China is definitively fascist

Based on that one sentence alone you can ID the author as a brainlet. These ratfucking academics get away with lies like that one because they know the terms they use have no meaning.

[Anonymous No.14538384]

>>14529926
>Do you believe the concept of the "national" is not artificial?

Meh.
Just because something has not solid delimitations doesn't mean is not real.

National, ethnics and cultural identities are dynamic entities but that doesn't mean that they have their own integrity.

Just because something evolve in time doesn't mean that you can force the change you want in the span of time that you want.

[Anonymous No.14538388]

>>14526920
>i can't take 99% of political chatter seriously
then let me help you. Step outside of the "ism" box. Capitalism, communism, anarchism, collectivism, individualism, anarchism, etc. are just the walls of an ideological maze. We are trained to pick one or the other even though ultimately they are all the same thing.

[Anonymous No.14538393]

>>14529678
>It obviously is a mental illness.
>>14529594
>maybe we should try thinking critically about why so many young people feel alienated from their own bodies and social selves.
Thinking critically, is mental illness an essential part of a persons identity? Do all mental illnesses function the same way? Do they have a physical basis? Is it genetic? Epigenetic? Environmental?

Is ADHD real? Does watching too many cartoons exercise your attention span like a muscle atrophying it? Is the resulting lack of attention span actually the problem or is it a lack of meaningful work required to receive the full attention of a hyper-active individual actually a waste of material resource human potential and life?

[Anonymous No.14538397]

>>14527026
>I agree with the idea that liberalism will be it's own undoing

True. Liberalism is obsolete and has been since marx outlined communism. Hitler corrected that error and the panic of the jews at a European nation built on an ideological basis capable of resisting communism was the reason for WW2.

Fascism and liberalism are virtually identical and can be made completely identical (but the same is true of every ism)

[Anonymous No.14538404]

>>14530191
>>14530162
Incorrect. Sex is a spook.

[Anonymous No.14538420]

>>14529724
>He doesn't know liberals invented "mentally ill" as a legal category so women could steal estates from business men in old age
fucking boomers

[Anonymous No.14538437]

>>14538404
I bet Sartre wished that she did gymnastics on his dick instead of doing them in her mind.

[Anonymous No.14538455]

>>14530773
>>14530692
>>14530122
>>14530085
>>14529790
>psychology isn't science
>mental illness is a real and scientific thing

Pick one and only one you fuck. You can't claim something is a mental illness if you don't believe in psychology.

[Anonymous No.14538458]

>>14531949
>The reality is that the West is more comfortable than the USSR ever was, so there's no real motivation to try to change things. This will not always be the case. Its propaganda system is also more effective.
that was thanks to a majority of ethnic european with western values and christian religion.
Not thanks to liberal ideology.

[Anonymous No.14538520]

>>14537450
>Well, liberalism doesn't hold militaristic struggle as one of its core tenets

Oh really? Then how do you explain the second amendment, brainlet?

[Anonymous No.14538533]

>>14538420
mental illness is real. The problem with psychiatry is that they intentionally obscure the real causes (experiences, genetics, and beliefs) so they can sell dangerous chemicals as the solution.

[Anonymous No.14538538]

>>14538455
>You can't claim something is a mental illness if you don't believe in psychology.
non-sequiter. mental illness predates modern psychiatry.

[Anonymous No.14538548]

>>14538455
Smallpox was an illness back when doctors still believed in the 4 humors, it's status didn't change just because people discovered germ theory

[Anonymous No.14538565]

>>14538458
>we have the values of the post-christian secular west are because of christcuckery
Aren't you shitheads tired of apropriating our achievements yet

And what the fuck do you mean by majority ethnic European, that was also true for USSR and Nazi Germany you absolute imbecile

[Anonymous No.14538577]

>>14538538
Are you that dumb or just pretending?

[Anonymous No.14538606]

>>14538577
No I have a mental illness.

[Anonymous No.14538617]

>>14529961
That’s very easy to say for Schopenhauer to say when his country wasn’t being flooded with Africans and Muslims.

[Anonymous No.14538841]

>>14538520
The second amendment isn't a core tenet of liberalism

[Anonymous No.14538862]

>there are unironic tranny defenders on /lit/
guess i shouldn't be surprised considering the leftypol influences

[Anonymous No.14539440]

Bump

[Anonymous No.14539456]

Sounds kind of like an "end of history" thesis. Jumping to conclusions. So today there is a little turbulence here and there. Therefore Liberalulism is over guise!

[Anonymous No.14539800]

>>14526920
Welcome to the examined life.

[Anonymous No.14540686]

>>14538617
Do you have a problem with Africans and Muslims?

[Anonymous No.14540688]

>>14538520
Do you think the right to possess guns is the same thing as militarism?

[Anonymous No.14540700]

>>14529616
>I think I'm a woman
>"medical condition"
I bet you think depression can be treated with pharmaceuticals.

[Anonymous No.14540722]

>>14529770
>APA
Aren't they the people who were singlehandedly responsible for medicating an entire generation of males after clutching their pearls about an "epidemic" of ADHD?

Also the idea that psychologists, who are not scientists and do not practice anything resembling science, are not ideologically motivated is fucking laughable.

[Anonymous No.14540726]

>>14529991
>Gender is a societal construct, so I need to cut my dick off
You can rebrand this any which way you want, the output doesn't in any way match the input.

[Anonymous No.14540735]

>>14530238
What was the sample size, my dude.
If I talk to 100 people who like Batman v. Superman and they all say they liked it, statistically that's a 100% approval rating for the film.

There is an enormous political stigma against people who have transitioned and regret it. That 2% figure is meaningless.

[Anonymous No.14540749]

>>14525570
Propaganda.

[Anonymous No.14540757]

>>14539456
Are you saying Liberalism is eternal?
Have you read the book?

[Anonymous No.14540761]

>>14540700
Do you know what a medical condition is?
>I bet you think depression can be treated with pharmaceuticals.
They can certainly help, doesn't mean they can cure it completely.

[Anonymous No.14540776]

>>14540722
>Also the idea that psychologists, who are not scientists and do not practice anything resembling science, are not ideologically motivated is fucking laughable.
The only laughable thing is how hard you are trying to defend your illogical transphobis with the psychology isn't really science argument. You would never bring that up if we were discussing schizophrenia for example, you only bring it up to dismiss extensive studies on transgenderism because they disagree with your politics.

[Anonymous No.14540781]

>>14540726
What is wrong with cutting your dick if it makes you feel better?

[Anonymous No.14540828]

>>14540735
>What was the sample size, my dude.
If I talk to 100 people who like Batman v. Superman and they all say they liked it, statistically that's a 100% approval rating for the film
They were 767 people. Here is the source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24872188

[Anonymous No.14540887]

>>14540776
I would indeed, because schizophrenia is another so-called mental disorder with fuzzy documentation and non-scientific means of testing. Listen to these symptoms:

Delusions
Hallucinations
Disorganized speech and behavior
Bizarre or hyperactive behavior

This could describe your average 12 year old. It’s this kind of shit reasoning that lead millions of parents to stuff their kids full of Adderall because psychiatrists said hyperactivity was a symptom of some sort of mental disorder they called ADD. It’s all bullshit. You have to tie yourself into knots to believe otherwise

[Anonymous No.14540892]

>>14540781
>if it makes you feel better?

it doesn't actually do that though.

[Anonymous No.14540910]

>>14530238
>even though we have studies about the psychological impact of transitioning being overwhelmingly positive with 2% regrets
does this take into account the present trend of retarded zoomers suddenly realizing they are trans in college when their friends start doing it despite admitting to having no gender dysphoria? does it predict how these people will feel ten, twenty years down the line?
statistics don't prove anything, you never get to assume "because things were this way, they will continue to be this way"

[Anonymous No.14540914]

>>14540892
So if I could prove that it does you would be fine with it?

[Anonymous No.14540920]

>>14540887
So do you also take issue with those who claim that transgenderism is a mental illness? Because this is also a psychological statement.

[Anonymous No.14540962]

>>14540910
>does this take into account the present trend of retarded zoomers suddenly realizing they are trans in college when their friends start doing it despite admitting to having no gender dysphoria?
I don't know what do you mean by this, are you a transmedicalist?

[Anonymous No.14540976]

>>14540962
if you actually spend any time in trans communities, it is extremely easy to see that the number of people transitioning is accelerating at an alarming rate and the people doing it are doing it for completely different reasons than trannies of the past
actually having gender dysphoria stopped being a requirement for transitioning years ago, now these places are literally full of lonely sad people who basically want to be their own girlfriend or get the popularity and sexual attention that comes with being a cute "girl" and have never had a negative thought about their gender in their life
statistics obviously do not reflect this, either because it's a very recent phenomenon, because trannies are told by other trannies to lie in order to get access to medication and other treatment, or because there simply hasn't been enough time for these people to really come to understand the meaning of taking feminizing and sterilizing hormones at 15 because they wanted to be some kind of popular bishounen anime boy like he sees in his chinese cartoons
the data is worthless, only time will tell how these people turn out once they become old and the novelty wears off

[Anonymous No.14541008]

>>14540976
>only time will tell how these people turn out once they become old and the novelty wears off
/thread

[Anonymous No.14541040]

>>14529961
Schopenhauer sounds like a self-important party-pooper.

[Anonymous No.14541043]

>>14525746
>Catholic post-liberals
So soft fascists?

[Anonymous No.14541056]

>>14541043
they're more of a bonapartist centre but yeah whatever nice bait dude

[Anonymous No.14541062]

>>14541056
>bonapartist centre
This is what has to be bait. Kek

[Anonymous No.14541086]

>>14530158
Just focus on a person or time+place that you think is interesting and study. It might be better to focus on one thing for a while rather than thrying to get the "whole picture." Try to imagine yourself there, and get into the heads of people, named and unnamed.

[Anonymous No.14541310]

>>14540686
Not on their own, no. But I do when they come to my country in significant numbers and invariably demand to take over its institutions, changing the nation’s fundamental historical character. It will invariably create hitherto non-existent tensions. Anyone who pretends otherwise is dense.

[Anonymous No.14541396]

>>14540914
Sure, but there is an even better way to relive yourself from being uncomfortable in your own skin
It requires only a rope

[Anonymous No.14541698]

>>14540976
Do you have any evidence for any of your wild claims? "I really browse a lot of trans forums, most of them shouldn't really transition" is not an argument. You don't know shit about whether people should or should not transition. And yes transitioning doesn't require gender dysphoria, but the overwhelming majority of people who transition absolutely have gender dysphoria. If you actually browsed trans forums you would know how rare it is to find someone who wants to transition that doesn't have gender dysphoria.

[Anonymous No.14541713]

>>14541008
The study I gave is from 1960 to 2010. 2% regrets. Let that sink in.

[Anonymous No.14541750]

>>14541043
They don't really have a coherent set of policies they advocate for, they just don't like liberalism because you can easily make liberal arguments for socially progressive causes. But on the other hand they can't go very hard on the traditional american conservatives (small government intervention etc.) because they represent the majority of right leaning people. So they end up being fence-sitters really.

[Anonymous No.14541780]

>>14541713
"Regrets" don't tell us anything. One of the reasons the allowing children to transition is so dangerous is because researchers have found that a young child's gender identity is both "elastic" and "plastic." It can change over time, and it responds to outside forces, including the approval or disapproval of parents, as well as messages received from the broader culture. This means that transgender affirming treatments may cause some children to persist in a transgender identity when they would otherwise have grown to accept their natal sex. These children then go on to subject themselves to unnecessary surgeries and ongoing hormonal treatments.

Adults are just susceptible to these outside pressures to persist in their transition. Imagine a man completely upturns his life, divorces his wife and forces his kids and all of friends and acquaintances to alter their behavior towards him in such a dramatic way, probably losing some friends and family along the way only to internally regret it in the end. Any decent person would be hesitant to say "whoops" and try to go back to living a normal life.

As far as why people initially want to transition, it's irrelevant. The proper treatment is to help them psychologically come to terms with who they really are instead of doing irreversible harm to their body and social relations.

[Anonymous No.14541791]

>>14540914

No. Heroin makes you feel good but I do not support its availability to people. However this part of the discussion is not necessary at all, since the claim that cutting your dick off makes you feel better is false. In fact post-surgery is always a huge let down for transgenders because they suddenly realize that it doesn't magically fix all their problems, and comes with the painful realization that they may have wrongly attributed their problems to their gender.

And then they kill themselves so that's the upside I guess.

[Anonymous No.14541816]

>>14541698
>Do you have any evidence for any of your wild claims?
yes i am actually trans and therefore have spent quite a lot of time on trans forums, most of the time their experience is completely different from mine and mostly seems to involve magically discovering in college that they are trans after hanging around the alt crowd and not feeling cool enough nor having ever felt any gender-specific dysphoria, as opposed to having gender dysphoria as a child or at the onset of puberty and transitioning as soon as possible as is the case with most legitimate trannies
>the overwhelming majority of people who transition absolutely have gender dysphoria
yeah "i want to be like my cool hot anime traps and have lots of sexual attention" does not qualify as gender dysphoria, if you actually went on these places you'd see what laughably thin pretenses actually constitute "gender dysphoria" according to your typical /r/traaaaaaaa denizen:
>depressed? it's latent gender dysphoria!
>shy? that's your feminine side, sweetie
>too buff? you're just repressing!
>fat piece of shit? you're just depressed cuz you're not a woman!
>like to jack off in women's underwear? that's just typical female sexuality, it's totally not just a fetish!
>you're an egg and you need to take the fucking pills nownownownownow or you'll regret it forever and almost certainly kill yourself so just fucking do it, okay?
legitimately transgendered people do not spontaneously decide they're transgender out of the blue in college, they have string gender dysphoria at childhood or the onset of puberty, they don't have a crossdressing fetish (extremely common among nutrans types and the surest way of weeding out fetishists from actually transgender people), and in general don't need to be told they're trans or go through some "questioning" phase after years of not ever even thinking about it
"latent gender dysphoria" is a meme and people without gender dysphoria at all are not even trans to start with, and these people account for well over half of new trannies i would bet

[Anonymous No.14541936]

>>14529826
low iq post

[Anonymous No.14541965]

>>14541936

Its true though

[Anonymous No.14542243]

>>14541965
You don't know what nationalism is.

[Anonymous No.14542254]

>>14541816
Yes they do. I've always felt like something was wrong. I didn't know till college

[Anonymous No.14542300]

>>14527042
>So long as globalization continues, liberalism will grow until it eventually hits a wall of despair.
It won't hit that wall, that's what capeshit and opiates are for. Everyone must be on a regimen of drugs to make them function 'properly' in the context of modernity, and we're already well on our way with so many kids on adderal just to succeed in school. The real blackpill is that we aren't going to move on from liberalism because the institutions are too strong and well developed, and are coming up with exciting new ways to keep dissidents from ever organizing or really challenging it.

[Anonymous No.14542345]

>>14542254
>t. fell for pinkpill pill pushing proselytization hook line and sinker
they literally gaslighted you into thinking you were a tranny lmao really nice "friends" you have there, like, if you'd hung around literally anyone else you'd be a normal person now lol
people who are actually transgender don't just have this vague feeling that something is wrong, that's just normal hormonal teenager behavior. actual trannies have actual gender-specific dysphoria that they didn't need anybody to tell them was gender dysphoria
anyway, my advice to you is that when you're still miserable despite transitioning and you have the chance to either give up or double down and get srs, ffs, voice feminization, fat redistribution, whatever frankenstein shit they come up with next, you should just give up, you'll never be happy living a lie

[Anonymous No.14542365]

>>14541816
the trannies that insist on being normal and legitimate ''real'' trannies, are an order of magnitude more perverted than the shameless anime fetishists. The most perverted thing imaginable is being transgender, converting to catholicism and seeking a good catholic man to settle down and raise adopted children with. One thing is being a pervert, another is conspiring to pervert the very idea of normality. The truth is we are irrevocably moving towards transhumanism and the detachment of sexual signifiers from biological reality, roided up bodybuilders and botoxed matrons are really as transexual as you and I. Personally, I mainly value people's originality and ability to think independently, many of these so called freaks, the radical leftists, the queers, are actually some of the most banal, normal and conformist people out there.

[Anonymous No.14542414]

>>14542365
honestly, i think you're right, and i almost became that sort of person you described until i realized it's just a sham, a facsimile of the actual thing i wanted, the normal life with a normal family with a normal husband. you can't ever have it when you're fundamentally in a homosexual relationship, it just doesn't work, adopting is just raising someone else's kids and it does nothing to consummate the romantic relationship you're supposed to have with your partner, which is the purpose of actual procreation
in the end i decided that homosexuality really was a sin, and to just be celibate, so don't worry i won't be dragging any good catholic men down with me (not that i have much love for a religion led by a refugee-loving foot fetishist anyway)

[Anonymous No.14542504]

>>14542414
Like Lacan knew, il n'y a pas de rapport sexuel. human sexuality is inherently perverse and always already mediated by fantasy. Autistic internet tradcaths and autistic internet trannies really all want the same thing, an imaginary simulacrum capable of concealing the traumatic horror of the real.

[Anonymous No.14542602]

>>14542365
based anon dropping truth bombs like it's toyko '45

[Anonymous No.14542846]

>>14542602
Reads more like an insane retard flailing on a keyboard.

[Anonymous No.14542890]

>>14525570
>liberalism
>failure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qASgtA7mlPU

[Anonymous No.14542897]

>>14525570
It's funny how so often completely underachievers and people of wasted potential become invested in politics, instead of finally starting something that will actually help them.

[Anonymous No.14542913]

>>14542890
>reddit
>Quora
finally we hear from someone whose opinions actually matter

[Anonymous No.14542948]

>>14542913
enjoy your irrelevance, coommunist/fashcel. Liberalism is eternal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJJkvmERPVo

[Anonymous No.14543997]

bump

[Anonymous No.14544356]

>Thread about Liberalism immediately devolves into arguing about trannies

[Anonymous No.14544416]

>>14538378
> Communism still remains and is a destructive force the same as ever (communism has never been a basis for a society, just a means for destroying society) and China is definitively fascist

How do you lack the self-awareness to not see just how stupid this sentence is?

[Anonymous No.14544442]

Is the book about liberalism or neoliberalism?

[Anonymous No.14544478]

>book is titled "Why [ideology that is still dominant to this day in the most successful nations] Failed"

[Anonymous No.14544594]

>>14541780
>One of the reasons the allowing children to transition is so dangerous is because researchers have found that a young child's gender identity is both "elastic" and "plastic."
Good thing we don't allow children in very young ages to transition then.
>Adults are just susceptible to these outside pressures to persist in their transition. Imagine a man completely upturns his life, divorces his wife and forces his kids and all of friends and acquaintances to alter their behavior towards him in such a dramatic way, probably losing some friends and family along the way only to internally regret it in the end. Any decent person would be hesitant to say "whoops" and try to go back to living a normal life.
"Dramatic" my ass, using a different pronoun is all they have to do. And why would he divorce his wife because of transitioning, that makes no sense.
>As far as why people initially want to transition, it's irrelevant. The proper treatment is to help them psychologically come to terms with who they really are instead of doing irreversible harm to their body and social relations.
The proper treatment is what actually makes them happier, not what makes the conservatives happier. What they need is actual medical treatment, not some conservatard telling them to cope.

[Anonymous No.14544620]

>>14525570
>>Of the three dominant ideologies of the twentieth century--fascism, communism, and liberalism--only the last remains
what about conservatism

[Anonymous No.14544628]

>>14544620
dead since WW1, moribund since Napoleon. Unless you're in an islamic country I suppose

[Anonymous No.14544634]

>>14544628
it's still alive in the states

[Anonymous No.14544637]

>>14541791
Unsurprisingly for a conservative, you have absolutely no clue what the actual studies say. Sex surgery demonstrably makes them happier, reduces the probability of suicide and has extremely low regrets. You just wished it doesn't work because you can't stomach the idea of other people living their own lives happily in ways Mr. Anon disapproves.

[Anonymous No.14544665]

>>14544634
If you're amish maybe

[Anonymous No.14544688]

>>14541816
Your post is entirely devoid of substance, "I am trans and visit trans forums" is not an argument, even if I believed you, to which I am sceptical to do. Unless you have any studies to back any of the points you are making, these are just your feelings. And I don't give a shit about what you think "legitimately trans" is. You can still be trans and be transphobic (which I am not accusing you to be).

[Anonymous No.14544692]

>>14544620
>conservatism
totally contextual and not an ideology. do you mean reactionary monarchism? because that shit ended in 1918.

[Anonymous No.14544708]

>>14544692
>Conservatism is a political and social philosophy promoting traditional social institutions in the context of culture and civilization. The central tenets of conservatism include tradition, organic society, hierarchy, authority, and property rights.[1] Conservatives seek to preserve a range of institutions such as religion, parliamentary government, and property rights, with the aim of emphasizing social stability and continuity.[2] The more traditional elements—reactionaries—oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were".[nb 1][4]

It's as much of an ideology as liberalism

[Anonymous No.14544714]

>implying the end result of post-liberal thought isn't the return of monarchy and aristocracy

We're gonna come full circle, just you fuckers wait. Russia and China are already de facto monarchies, and the American Republic won't make it another hundred years.

[Anonymous No.14544732]

>>14544688
>Unless you have any studies to back any of the points you are making
>hurr durr things that aren't objectively measured aren't true
jesus try opening your fucking eyes some time
in eastern religions they talk about opening a third eye, who would have thought over here in the west we'd have trouble with just the regular two

[Anonymous No.14544746]

>fascism, communism, and liberalism
what

[Anonymous No.14544764]

>>14544708
almost all of that is just liberalism

[Anonymous No.14544810]

>>14544764
Not at all... tradition, hierarchy, authority, religion are not exactly liberal values

[Anonymous No.14544865]

>>14544810
liberalism embraces hierarchy. the rest are still contextual and don't compose an ideology. saying 'i support tradition, religion, and authority' is totally deferential and basically a non-statement on its own.

[Anonymous No.14544868]

>>14544810
hierarchy and authority are definitely liberal values, just not in the same structure as conservatism

[Anonymous No.14544923]

>>14544865
>>14544868
How? Liberalism promotes equality and egalitarian values, not hierarchy. The government is employed by the people to serve the country, and liberals typically feel entitled to govern and decide the direction of the country. Also democracy, limited government, free markets, freedom of speech, etc are not values supportive of authority.

>Saying 'i support tradition, religion, and authority' is totally deferential and basically a non-statement on its own.
It's not though. There's a fundamental difference between accepting, supporting, and encouraging strong authorities such as the church, a strong state, and tradition; and seeing everyone as equal and championing equality.

[Anonymous No.14544930]

>>14544923
liberalism isn't communism and even if it was, a social hierarchy still exists in both

[Anonymous No.14545004]

>>14544923
Private property is a form of hierarchy.

[Anonymous No.14545040]

>>14544923
>seeing everyone as equal and championing equality.
this is where you are getting lost. this is not what liberalism is; things in opposition to this are not necessarily anathema to liberalism. conservatives in the modern west are liberals.

[Anonymous No.14546147]

>>14544923
Liberalism is about equality before the law and freedom. Egalitarianism is about equality in many things especially socially, which is always biased against one group to bring up the other.

[Anonymous No.14546218]

>>14526920
>i hold certain metaphysical and epistemological positions concerning the relation of belief, truth, and the world in social contexts

Such as? I'm a brainlet, pls explain