/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14517148]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7PivoK2fA8

>1. There are only two outcomes of a prayer asking God to do something.
>2. It either happens or does not.
>3. But God already knows which one will happen.
>4. So when you pray asking him, it is already part of his plan.
>5. If it happens, it was part of the plan.
>6. If it did not, it was not.
>7. In either case, it follows God's plan.
>8. Therefore it is pointless to pray.
>Q.E.D.

Books refuting this philosophical argument?

[Anonymous No.14517216]

>>14517148
incredibly unequivocally categorically irrefutably based

[Anonymous No.14517230]

>>14517148
Is praying even in the Bible? I've always seen it as vain, selfish and capricious. "Daddy God please help me pass tomorrow's Algebra test". Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.14517269]

>>14517148
You don't need to ask for something specifics to happen in prayer

[Anonymous No.14517305]

meister eckhart

[Anonymous No.14517313]

praying is not for god, but yourself.

the idea that "prayers are answered" is perhaps the apotheosis of judeo-christian hubris and stupidity. it only logically translates into an ontological basis for unfounded conception that "god can be influenced through prayer" or that "god can be good/bad" - the well-known questions of christian dogmatic theology

you can never influence god, and to think that your prayers are answered is to imply that god obeyed your command. the sole point of prayer in islam is that it makes you a better person, wake up early, remember His name, and whatever happens is the will of god.

t. muslim

[Anonymous No.14517323]

>>14517148
>>14517216
incredibly unequivocally categorically irrefutably cringe

[Anonymous No.14517338]

Read Pseudo Denys, Maximus, Plato, Plotinus, Damascius, Eriugena, Ficino, Gregory, Basil, Palamas, The Bible, Eckhart, Farabi and Avicenna. You might actually fill your mind with some real philosophy rather than some posturing pseud on YouTube with no real participation or understanding of the concept of prayer.

[Anonymous No.14517361]

>>14517313
this

[Anonymous No.14517375]

>>14517230
The Lord's prayer is in there. Something about it being the prayer to go to in all circumstances.

[Anonymous No.14517377]

Prayer is a form of communion with God. It's not about asking for Christmas presents.

[Anonymous No.14517393]

>>14517148
I thought Christians believed in free will rather than "God's plan/fate"? Is it not like this?

[Anonymous No.14517428]

>>14517313
>"prayer is for yourself" t. Mohammedan
>christian hubris
lol

[Anonymous No.14517433]

>>14517313
shut up muhammad

[Anonymous No.14517440]

>>14517230
Think of it what you want, but it does help a lot. When i used to believe and prayed before a test or an important even i would instantly feel calm which allowed me to fall asleep and feel confident the next day. Now that i'm an atheist nothing can calm me down or give me hope.

[Anonymous No.14517533]

>>14517148
That's only one reason to pray. Another, and I would say the correct way, is to ask for answers.

There's a practice in programming called rubber duck debugging. It involved explaining your code to a rubber duck in order for the problem within your code to become apparent whilst you explain it.

I think praying offers something similar. It's a way to self reflect and seek answers. God just acts as a thing to talk to in order to think properly.

[Anonymous No.14517597]

>>14517533
>God just acts as a thing to talk to in order to think properly.
That's just fedora-tier reductionism. Not surprised that you mentioned programming. STEMfags should be be necked.

[Anonymous No.14517636]

>>14517597
You really think it's different? I'm surprised, maybe you could stop insulting me and explain why.
I'm not religeous but I think praying probably "works" to the same degree rubber ducking does.
I thought it was a way to think/talk through your problems in order to solve them.

[Anonymous No.14517640]

>>14517148
How do you think he comes? What is the girl's reaction?

[Anonymous No.14517700]

>>14517148

[Anonymous No.14517704]

>>14517636
>You really think it's different?
Yes. You are elevating yourself to The One by engaging the higher intellect (the Plotinistic "nous"), something programmers have to willingly cut themselves off of and cope by believing that rational thinking is the highest mode the mind can operate in. Every single programmer I've seen has been deeply infected by this, and that's no coincidence. I unironically believe pic related is the only short-term solution to the programmer problem.

[Anonymous No.14517727]

>>14517700
Based Japs.

[Anonymous No.14517794]

>>14517704
>You are elevating yourself to The One by engaging the higher intellect
I don't think that's a contradiction. I think a lot of people simply don't think about their problems a lot, but instead simply worry about and avoid them. A lot of people simply don't know how to think without aid, I think that's why you see a lot of time people answer their own question when they ask it, in that instant the think about their own question. Praying to me simply looking for a response from God, then being able to answer your own question. I think the evidence of this is massive just from phrasing alone.
"The answer just popped in my head"
"God spoke to me"
"The answer came to me in the darkest moment"

I think these all reflect what I described.
Instead you seem to be refering to something more mystical. I predict you will suggest I'm willing cutting myself off from this and I should end my own life, without actually providing anything more substantial in your own words.

[Anonymous No.14517853]

>>14517794
>I think these all reflect what I described.
What you describe is a fedora-tier secularized reduction of prayer into the basest results it can offer to someone. You're like that guy in the cave mistaking the shadow for the entire picture and denying everything else outside just because of your ignorance. Indeed, it being ""mystical"" to you (when the significance of the practice was commonly understood by people not long ago) just shows the depths of the retardation you and your kind experience.

[Anonymous No.14517855]

>>14517148
This seems like the kind of low-level thinking that one finds in Dawkins and the new atheists. A superficial logicality and ahistoric approach without a deeper understanding of the issues involved.

[Anonymous No.14517885]

>>14517338
>Maybe if I namedrop enough medieval authors of obsolete misticism and calling it "real philosophy" that will make prayer seem more profound than the placebo it really is.

[Anonymous No.14517892]

>>14517148
Its literally just an extrapolation of Calvinism. If you can respect free will as one of the ultimate mysteries (and biblically substantiated in Leviticus) then the argument is of no more effect than the usual calvinist or hard-determinist fedora-tipping.

[Anonymous No.14517906]

>>14517892
Books on why modern atheism can basically be identified with calvinist "thought"?

[Anonymous No.14517915]

>>14517906
Islam too. People are more interested in things being logical than having them be beautiful.

[Anonymous No.14517918]

>>14517885
>namedrop enough medieval authors
based & redpilled

[Anonymous No.14517944]

>>14517892
I think it was Dante who had a great analogy for reconciling free will with predestination. Imagine boats on a river, the river is always going to the same destination, but each boat can choose either to go with the river's flow or resist it and sink.

[Anonymous No.14517951]

>>14517853
>this whole post

>I predict you will suggest I'm willing cutting myself off from this and I should end my own life, without actually providing anything more substantial in your own words.
Wow, just short of killing myself, I can't believe you managed to do something so dumb. I hope you're not trying to convince me of anything here becasue it just appears that you're having a tantrum to me.

I don't even know what your point is. Isn't prayer the act of talking to God and walking away a bit more enlightened? I have expierence this in real life, simply without the God part, I tend to talk to myself a lot in my mind. Why should I think there's something mystical going on when I've had the experience without God?

Do you think I should attribute my own thoughts to God? OR do you think I'm doing it wrong? Your post is just throwing insults. It's pathetic.

I don't think it's a coincidence that every religion has a form of prayer/meditation/self reflection, but I don't why it has to be exclusive to those. I can only assume it's your own mind shouting "THIS IS A WORK OF GOD!" and declaring everyone else who doesn't believe to simply not understand it.

[Anonymous No.14517969]

>>14517906
>>14517915
Calvinism is literally just Islam with Christian trappings. The same philosophical presuppositions are all there: theological voluntarism, monergism, etc.

[Anonymous No.14518002]

>>14517951
Didn't even look at this inane programmer drivel. Read the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.14518023]

>>14517951
>I am enlightened by my own intelligence, not by some phony deity
low iq hylic bugman detected...

[Anonymous No.14518030]

>>14517148
>1.There is no free will, we only follow our biological impulses.
>2.It either happens or does not.
>3.if you kill somebody, it was just biology.
>4.Therefore you cannot blame a killer for killing.

[Anonymous No.14518036]

>>14517148
>3. But God already knows which one will happen.
Which means that God already knows that you're going to pray too. You can't just throw that out of the equation.

[Anonymous No.14518042]

>>14518030
based. I wouldn't have a problem with fedoras if they were at least consistent.

[Anonymous No.14518045]

>>14518023
So you seriously don't think it's possible to answer your own questions? I guess you don't believe in free will then.

>What should I do today?

[Anonymous No.14518096]

>implying /lit/ could refute this Oxford scholar

literally undoable

[Anonymous No.14518133]

It might seem pointless to pray but the strange ubiquity of it throughout cultures and times stretching back to antiquity is slightly alerting. The anthropological universalism of it makes me wonder how this behavior entered the repetoire of such a wide sample of humanity. It's fallen out of fashion, for sure, it's been one of the most normal activities of human behavior for most of history.

I suspect, in some part, that isn't exactly pointless It is much like "mindfullness meditation" and other such buzzwords. It is about centering your consciousness, breathing in an out, stilling the chaos, opening yourself to the unknown and the sublime.

[Anonymous No.14518192]

>>14517338
but he studies theology!!

[Anonymous No.14518197]

>>14518096
He started all wrong. One fucking line and it already falls apart.

[Anonymous No.14518200]

>>14517148
prayer that consists of 'asking god to do something' is only practiced by the most retarded breeds of abrahamist

[Anonymous No.14518203]

>>14517148
People who assume a perfect god are wrong.
Nothing that exists is perfect.

[Anonymous No.14518255]

>>14517230
Mark 11:24
24 So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you are receiving it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 7:7-11
7 “Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

[Anonymous No.14518315]

>>14517597
>>14517704
>>14518002
>You are elevating yourself to The One by engaging the higher intellect (the Plotinistic "nous") something programmers have to willingly cut themselves
>>stemfags
>read the greeks

Hahaha. What a pathetic loser. You just know what a fucking brainlet failure his life is. Too incompetent for STEM and coding, his only cope is being smug by memorizing obscure philosophical concepts with no basis in reality, like a little girl reading her astrological chart. HAHAHA

[Anonymous No.14518317]

But if that's true then your act of prayer was also predetermined. Or if it's not, then your prayer was taken into account and weighed on its merit and it either fit into the overarching plan or it didn't. It's not any more meaningless or any less meaningful than the outcome. That is to say, you can speculate a dychotomy here but it's only conceptual, the question you ask evades determination but you've taken an unfounded position nonetheless; maybe it's not the right question.

/Case

[Anonymous No.14518448]

>>14517148
>assumes God is a slave to his own omniscience
>assumes God can't change his will
>reduces God into a mere static force
typical moral

[Anonymous No.14518992]

>>14517148
You pray for your and people's soul, not for an Iphone X, a Honda Civic or new Microwave.

[Anonymous No.14519145]

>>14517148
I genuinely hate this guy. Dont get me wrong he is making valid points etc. just the way he talks is fucking annoying. Its like that smug kid in your class that always has to be right

[Anonymous No.14519252]

>trying to reconcile infinite reasoning with finite reasoning
Shiggy diggy doo

[Anonymous No.14519265]

Does anyone here genuinely believe in god, or is it just pseuds pretending to be more enlightened.

[Anonymous No.14519434]

>>14517148
already assumes that the point of a prayer is to make god act which is fucking wrong

[Anonymous No.14519440]

>>14519265
only in a purely rational kind of sense where i dont see any alternative, its more that atheists are so cringeworthy and contradictory in everything they say that i cant help but agree with religious viewpoints even if its ultimately flawed

[Anonymous No.14519904]

>>14517944
Its a nice picture but I don’t think it does a lot to resolve the issue of the apparent logical inconsistency of the two ideas.

[Anonymous No.14520585]

>>14519440
>religion
>not contradictory
lmao

[Anonymous No.14520724]

>>14519265
Of course.

[Anonymous No.14521560]

>>14517377
>It's not about asking for Christmas presents.
>Or the requesting of good things from God

Pick one.

[Anonymous No.14521663]

>>14517148
To keep the argument valid the conclusion should be 'Therefore it is pointless to pray asking God to do something'. Even if the argument is sound, non-petitionary prayers are not proved pointless, as the Muhammadan says>>14517313.

>3. But God already knows which one will happen
is up for grabs, especially the word 'already'. It implies God exists in time, and looks forwards and backwards through time, the same as we do (only he sees more). But if God exists 'outside' time, and sees us from the viewpoint of eternity, he doesn't 'already' know anything: from his point of view, the prayer is simultaneous with the event being prayed for's happening (or not happening). So if God exists eternally, outside time, the conclusion doesn't follow.

[Anonymous No.14521789]

>>14517148
"The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis" Comes to mind.
>Don't forget to use the 'heads I win, tails you lose' argument. If the thing he prays for doesn't happen, then that is one more proof that petitionary prayers don't work; if it does happen, he will, of course, be able to see some of the physical causes which led up to it, and 'therefore it would have happened anyway', and thus a granted prayer becomes just as good a proof as a denied one that prayers are ineffective. You, being a spirit, will find it difficult to understand how he gets into this confusion. But you must remember that he takes Time for an ultimate reality. He supposes that the Enemy, like himself, sees some things as present, remembers others as past, and anticipates others as future; or even if he believes that the Enemy does not see things that way, yet, in his heart of hearts, he regards this as a peculiarity of the Enemy’s mode of perception—he doesn’t really think (though he would say he did) that things as the Enemy sees them are things as they are! If you tried to explain to him that men’s prayers today are one of the innumerable co-ordinates with which the Enemy harmonises the weather of tomorrow, he would reply that then the Enemy always knew men were going to make those prayers and, if so, they did not pray freely but were predestined to do so. And he would add that the weather on a given day can be traced back through its causes to the original creation of matter itself—so that the whole thing, both on the human and on the material side, is given ‘from the word go’. What he ought to say, of course, is obvious to us; that the problem of adapting the particular weather to the particular prayers is merely the appearance, at two points in his temporal mode of perception, of the total problem of adapting the whole spiritual universe to the whole corporeal universe; that creation in its entirety operates at every point of space and time, or rather that their kind of consciousness forces them to encounter the whole, self-consistent creative act as a series of successive events. Why that creative act leaves room for their free will is the problem of problems, the secret behind the Enemy’s nonsense about ‘Love’. How it does so is no problem at all; for the Enemy does not foresee the humans making their free contributions in a future, but sees them doing so in His unbounded Now. And obviously to watch a man doing something is not to make him do it.

[Anonymous No.14521833]

>>14517148
Perhaps God planned for you to pray so that he could “change” his mind as a result, and that your relationship would improve with him through the process. But as others have said, prayer’s main purpose is to really strengthen your relationship with God

[Anonymous No.14521838]

>>14517440
weren't you just transfering the burden to someone else? maybe a stoic approach could give you similar results

[Anonymous No.14521928]

>>14518133
>It is about centering your consciousness, breathing in an out, stilling the chaos, opening yourself to the unknown and the sublime.

only correct post itt.

[Anonymous No.14521944]

>>14518133
>I suspect, in some part, that isn't exactly pointless It is much like "mindfullness meditation" and other such buzzwords. It is about centering your consciousness, breathing in an out, stilling the chaos, opening yourself to the unknown and the sublime.
This is what your crypto-fedora mindset leads to.

[Anonymous No.14521995]

>>14517148
My beloved explanation is from Pascal.
> “God,” said Pascal, “instituted prayer in order to lend to His creatures the dignity of causality.”

[Anonymous No.14522010]

>>14521928
agree

>>14521995
meaning what? That brings back the notion of prayer as a means to make something happen?

[Anonymous No.14522920]

>>14517148
>4. So when you pray asking him, it is already part of his plan.
Is it though? Or is it part of God's plan to bring X about only if you pray for X?

[Anonymous No.14523166]

>>14517148
>4. So when you pray asking him, it is already part of his plan
is badly written and ambiguous. It could mean
>4a. So when you pray asking him [for X], [X] is already part of his plan [whether you prayed for X or not]
or
>4b. So when you pray asking him [for X], [not-X] is already part of his plan [whether you prayed for X or not]
or
>4c. So when you pray asking him [for X], [X] is already part of his plan [as a consequence of your having prayed for X]
or even
>4d. So when you pray asking him [for X], [not-X] is already part of his plan [as a consequence of your having prayed for X]

The conclusion follows from 4a, 4b and 4d, but not from 4c. Both 4a and 4b beg the question: only someone who already accepts the conclusion would interpret 4 in either of these ways. 4d is a stretched and unnatural interpretation of the wording in 4. But if you interpret 4 as 4c, the conclusion doesn't follow, since X comes about as a consequence of your having prayed for it.

OP: Boethius and Molina talk about these kinds of problem.

[Anonymous No.14523368]

All impulses are egoistical in nature. Listen to Stirner:
>The involuntary egoist, who serves only himself and at the same time always thinks he is serving a higher being, who knows nothing higher than himself and yet is infatuated about something higher; in short, for the egoist who would like not to be an egoist, and abases himself (i.e. combats his egoism), but at the same time abases himself only for the sake of “being exalted,” and therefore of gratifying his egoism. Because he would like to cease to be an egoist, he looks about in heaven and earth for higher beings to serve and sacrifice himself to; but, however much he shakes and disciplines himself, in the end he does all for his own sake, and the disreputable egoism will not come off him. On this account I call him the involuntary egoist.

God is only concerned with his own purpose, his own domain which he is himself. Why should you be concerned by anything different in prayer? Think of your own cause, for to pretend otherwise is a lie and a delusion.

[Anonymous No.14524513]

>>14517885
He asked for books, I gave him authors. And they do refute this retarded reasoning you pseud. For all I care you can go read Kant or Hegel and come to the same conclusion if mysticism and old things bother you so much.