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/lit/ - Literature

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1436637 No.1436637 [Reply] [Original]

>In trying to puzzle out how she could have sustained a bloody injury while she was unconscious, Dworkin gradually became convinced she'd been drugged and raped. She speculated in detail about how her attackers might have done the deed: "I couldn't remember, but I thought they had pulled me down toward the bottom of the bed so that my vagina was near the bed's edge and my legs were easy to manipulate." To a woman who had already experienced the full measure of sexual victimization in her life (her Web site autobiography recounts molestation as a child, beatings and torture as a wife, an assault in jail, rape and prostitution), the idea that she had been used sexually while unable to resist was particularly horrifying. "In my own life, I don't have intercourse. That is my choice, " Dworkin wrote. "I had decided long ago that no one would ever rape me again; he or they or I would die. But this rape was necrophiliac: they wanted to fuck a dead woman ... I thought that being forced and being conscious was better, because then you knew; even if no one ever believed you, you knew."

Wait.....WHAT???

>> No.1436641

Does anyone else think that being raped would not be the end of your life and sexual exploits? It would just be.. an experience. An unpleasant one that teaches you a few things.

>> No.1436642

4chan is definitely the best place to have an intelligent discussion about radical feminism

>> No.1436647

>>1436641
I am just going to go out on a limb and guess that if you think being raped is basically like losing Dumbledore it is not something you have any first-hand experience with

>> No.1436652

Where do all these guys willing to rape dworkin come from?

>> No.1436660

Wouldn't you be able to feel it? I'm not female, but I'm led to believe sex without arousal is pretty painful for them.

>> No.1436661

>>1436647
obviously not. Can you or someone else describe why it damages people so much?

>> No.1436664

>>1436637
Yep. If you were going to drug and rape someone, you would rape her.

Not a young and beautiful woman.

>> No.1436675

>>1436661

>Can you or someone else describe why it damages people so much?
Where you ever bullied as a child?

>> No.1436677

*were

>> No.1436678

>>1436664
>>1436652
old women get raped, ugly women get raped, retarded women in mental facilities get raped

i mean i'm not particularly interested in repping for andrea dworkin, but lol you guys

>>1436661
do you also find it weird when victims of childhood molestation have issues with trust and sexuality or is it just that you think adult women should be able to ride it out and have some fun when someone forces their dick into them

>> No.1436692

>>1436678
no i understand childhood development problems. distrust and such.
Obviously rape affects some adults strongly, too. But..why would one occurrence like that ruin sex and relationships so much? triggered memories?

>> No.1436706

>>1436692
It's a violent and traumatic act, I mean you never heard of PTSD

>> No.1436710
File: 85 KB, 351x300, ohwaityoureserious.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1436710

>intelligent discussion
>about radical feminism

>> No.1436713

>>1436675

What's your point?

>> No.1436719

>>1436706
PTSD is barely (if at all) legitimate and quite rare if so

>> No.1436721

>>1436713
Seen from the outside certain actions may seem insignificant. Suffering through them is quite another story.

Some kid used to bump into every day. Seems pretty harmless right? That guy made me wish I was dead.

>> No.1436724

Rape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEnkDEgALGI&t=3m42s

>> No.1436726

>>1436721

OK, but you're not an anti-bullying activist who is famous for thinking that all contact between children is necessarily bullying. Because you're not fucking insane, and managed to cope with your bad situation. Unlike Dworkin...

>> No.1436781

>Where do all these guys willing to rape dworkin come from?

Maybe they were familiar with her work?

>> No.1436803

>>1436721
I always figured thoughts like that were just children being overly emotional.

I never imagined anyone actually would still be effected in the same way after they mature.

Unless you're saying that rape is the next step up and is as harmful to an adult's emotions and bullying is to a kid's emotions.

It just seem silly to brood over the past so much. Maybe you'd refuse to have sex for a year or two, 5 at most, but it's just childish to keep it with you your entire life. If a close one dies, you're supposed to forget about it, not let it control you, you're supposed to move on.

But I dunno, maybe women are just more emotional.

>> No.1436813

>>1436803
3.7/10

>> No.1436831

>>1436803

A big part of it is societal expectation.

You know how babies sometimes fall down but only start crying when the mother scoops them up in a panicked and worried moment of great intensity?

Rape can be like that. Due to it's perfectly understandable concern for the women involved, society tragically projects pain and suffering onto the rape "victim" greatly intensifying the mild dolour that resulted from the sexual encounter.

The only solution is to pressure raped women to keep quite about their experiences. This will isolate them from the harmful voices that may tell her that she should be in more pain than she is.

Am I making sense?

>> No.1436840

>>1436831
Wow, dude. I would punch you in the face. I would laugh, too, and maybe buy you a beer, because I know you're trolling, but I'd still punch you.

>> No.1436845

>>1436831
I hope you get raped.

>> No.1436847

>>1436831
or just let people do what they want without feigned concern from 'obligation'.

>> No.1436849

Someone needs to write some fanfic about Andrea Dworkin's annual clownrape.

>> No.1436851

>>1436845

>I hope you get raped.
I'm not a woman.
Men cannot be raped.

>> No.1436854
File: 30 KB, 383x419, glass of derp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1436854

>>1436851

>> No.1436855

>>1436851
Well, *real* men at least.
The faggots on this board, on the other hand...

>> No.1436859

I can only assume this was the work of Pyramid Head.

>> No.1436860

>>1436851
I'm going to rape you. Your butthole will look like a pancake somebody gnawed the inner circumference out of, drenched in both clear and brown syrup when I'm through, the floppy outside rim quivering as you weep.

>> No.1436866

>>1436692
I was raped once..
I won't get into it. Suffice to say though, it's a little frightening knowing that every person with a duck around me is perfectly capable of doing that any time he wants.
The rape wasn't so bad..I got past that. It's the paranoia that kills me.
That and the realization that every guy I'll ever do it with is being urged on by the same thing that guy was urged on by.

>> No.1436867

>>1436831

I often wonder how much society projects onto an individual in cases like these. Child molestation for instance, is it really so bad, or is it just becuase everyone acts like it is that anyone involved goes insane?

>> No.1436868

>>1436866
I'm gonna duck you all night long, baby.

>> No.1436872
File: 236 KB, 530x380, duckraep.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1436872

>>1436866
>>1436866

You gonna get raped...

>> No.1436874

>>1436872
That typo was worse then the rape, I'm not gonna lie.
I'm ashamed ;_;

>> No.1436876

>>1436866
>implying channeling powerlessness and rage through sexuality and misogyny is the same thing as sexual desire
0/10. I like that you're on topic with the Dworkin thing, though.

>> No.1436880

>>1436866
see? its not so bad

women are sex objects, some are okay with it, some of them aren't.. I don't see anything wrong with that

>> No.1436882

>>1436874
>>1436874

It sure was unfortunate (the typo, not the rape. That's another matter entirely)

>> No.1436888

>>1436876
>>1436876

I think it's an understandable response. It's like someone who has a phobia, once the negative association is made it's very difficult and scary to break.

That was possibly the most hilarious typo I've ever seen btw.

>> No.1436890

>>1436866
>duck
i'm sorry, but, that is hilarious

>> No.1436891

>>1436876
You're typical rapist just wants to fuck something and doesn't want to ask, sorry to point that out to you.

I remember seeing the results of this study once.
Basically, they put this thing on a bunch of guys penises and measured the growth when they were shown violent images.
Most of them registered a response.

I think that speaks for itself.

>> No.1436897

its the woman's fault for not having a sense of humor about it

>> No.1436902
File: 1.66 MB, 252x188, 1294465880765.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1436902

>>1436891
>>1436891

1/3 women enjoy rough play

>> No.1436906

>>1436902
...and 66% won't admit to liking it.

>> No.1436907

>>1436902

OK, that made me hard.

>> No.1436910

>>1436906
>>1436906

They all love it. Bitches love being dominated.

>> No.1436913
File: 8 KB, 300x300, icame.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1436913

>>1436902

fapfapfap

>> No.1436912 [DELETED] 

>>1436902
only because those behaviors have been embedded into sexuality by the inherent misogyny of a male dominated world

>> No.1436916

>>1436902
only because those behaviors have been embedded into sexuality by a male dominated world

>> No.1436920

>>1436891
>You're typical rapist just wants to fuck something and doesn't want to ask, sorry to point that out to you.

See that's where I stopped reading, it is well known that rape is not about the sexual aspect but the power involved. So no, they don't want to "just fuck"

>> No.1436921

>>1436916

>male dominated world

I think you mean 'nature'

>> No.1436926

>>1436921
so this is natural to you? >>1436902

>> No.1436928

>>1436926
Depends if the bitch was out of the kitchen or not.

>> No.1436932
File: 1.86 MB, 192x152, 1294465397445.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1436932

>>1436926

Violence is who we are, of course it's natural. It's also sexy and exciting!

>> No.1436944

>>1436660
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MOtz-eJlPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFN8dYgSRBk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4_uvvcaDqw&feature=related

>> No.1436960

>>1436891
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thoughts

>> No.1436978
File: 6 KB, 217x251, brittfar.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1436978

>>1436642
this

though i'd love to see what happens if it actually gets treated with some sort of seriousness. my brain would melt.

>> No.1436981

>>1436928
honestly? its impossible to have a sense of humor about rape and not be a misogynist

enjoy your self loathing male dominated ego

>> No.1436986

FANZINE: You mention Andrea Dworkin often. People might find the two of you an odd pairing, but on some level I guess you seem to share a notion of the humanity of victims.

Peter Sotos: I disagree. I think Andrea Dworkin cared very deeply about her words being more than that – just words. I'm certain that I do, as well. But we don't see the frustrating impossibilities of that action in the same context or towards the same result.

>> No.1436987

>>1436916
I like domination play sometimes (girl dominating). I'm a guy. It's not about my views on society. I just like losing control and having no choice but to feel naturally.

>>1436866
Interesting. Everyone could do lots of terrible things to you, and we all have partial motivations towards damaging acts (like rape). Most people care about others enough that rape would hurt too much emotionally and thus not satisfy them sexually. Most people care about others enough that killing a person would hurt too much emotionally and thus not quiet their annoyance with said person.

>> No.1436989

What say you guys to this thread? >>>301012646

This chick makes guys thinks they raped her for fun

>> No.1436991

>>1436981
no
people can find all kinds of things funny. Everyone is not on the same page as you at all times. Also, what if a guy has a sense of humour about male rape?

>> No.1436993

>>1436987
>I just like losing control and having no choice but to feel naturally.

so you had a dominating mother.. where else do you think these "natural feelings" come from but experience and social constructs?

>> No.1436994

Feminism requires moral cognitivism to be true. That is, sentences containing ethical statements must be propositions.

Moral cognitivism is obviously a load of bollocks.

Therefore, feminism is at best a useless collection of meaningless sentences. "Feminist philosophy" is therefore a contradictio in adjecto.


sup?

>> No.1436997 [DELETED] 

>>1436867
http://www.wearesurvivors.org/?p=1067
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/health/26zuger.html
http://www.salon.com/books/int/2010/01/18/trauma_myth_interview
http://open.salon.com/blog/sparking/2010/01/22/a_survivors_take_on_the_trauma_myth_by_susan_a_clancy

for some, it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. it depends on the specifics of what happened, what happened before, what happened later, to whom, when, and where.

>> No.1436999

>>1436994
>Moral cognitivism is obviously a load of bollocks.
Ethical descriptive statements are perfectly conceivable.

>> No.1437012

>>1436991
I'm not about to start micromanaging your sexual fetishes, but when you make jokes about rape, you're saying its the woman's fault for not having a sense of humor about it

>> No.1437016

>>1436867
http://www.wearesurvivors.org/?p=1067
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/health/26zuger.html
http://www.salon.com/books/int/2010/01/18/trauma_myth_interview
http://open.salon.com/blog/sparking/2010/01/22/a_survivors_take_on_the_trauma_myth_by_susan_a_clancy
http://www.metafilter.com/88964/The-Trauma-Myth-by-Susan-Clancy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy

for some, it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. it depends on the specifics of what happened, what happened before, what happened later, to whom, when, and where.

>> No.1437017

>>1436993
or just the nature of responsibility in life
Everything we think or feel is not the result of others' choices.

>> No.1437019

>>1436987
>>1436987

My ex girlfriend got me into BDSM. I thought it was strange at first but now I love it. She conditioned me with all her screaming and cumming.

Red bottoms are the best bottoms.

>> No.1437020

The funniest thing about this was that nobody believed Dworkin when she made the claim. Even other feminists.

>> No.1437026

>>1437012

You're dodging the question. It appears you not only have no sense of humor, you have no intellectual honesty either.

>> No.1437028

>>1436994
>Feminism requires moral cognitivism to be true.
who said it needs to be True? huhh aspie logico positivist

>> No.1437029

>>1436999

...and also irrelevant in this case since feminism is entirely based on normative ethics.

>> No.1437056

>>1437017
language is prior to any individual, so if our minds are essentially linguistic, then our human "identity" is fundamentally social, and fundamentally based on social constructs

>> No.1437064

>>1437012
I'm not making any social statement by laughing at something absurd, ironic, or interesting in my imagination.

Dead baby jokes - do you hate babies inside if you laugh at one? No, it's ironically inappropriate and thus funny. Just one example.

>> No.1437065

>>1437026
would it be somehow different if the subject was male? I don't understand your question

>> No.1437075

>>1437056
Our attempt at translating our identity to language may be. People do not do that before every single action in their lives.

>> No.1437083

>>1437064
whose interests are being served when someone makes a rape joke / defends the right to make a rape joke
whose interests are being served when someone makes a joke about dead babies, etc

>> No.1437086

Captain, I'm detecting dangerous quantities of herp-2-one and 245-Derpium in this thread - initiate decontamination procedures!

>> No.1437091
File: 224 KB, 467x467, 1272257997172.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1437091

>During her final years, Dworkin suffered fragile health, and she revealed in her last column for the Guardian that she had been weakened and nearly crippled for the past several years by severe osteoarthritis in the knees.[85] Shortly after returning from Paris in 1999, she had been hospitalized with a high fever and blood clots in her legs. A few months after being released from the hospital, she became increasingly unable to bend her knees, and underwent surgery to replace her knees with titanium and plastic prosthetics. She wrote, "The doctor who knows me best says that osteoarthritis begins long before it cripples—in my case, possibly from homelessness, or sexual abuse, or beatings on my legs, or my weight. John, my partner, blames Scapegoat, a study of Jewish identity and women's liberation that took me nine years to write; it is, he says, the book that stole my health. I blame the drug-rape that I experienced in 1999 in Paris."[85]

>andrea_dworkin_narrowweb__200x266.jpg
>I blame the drug-rape that I experienced in 1999 in Paris

>> No.1437097

>>1437083
whoever finds it humorous and enjoys it. People enjoy self-depreciatory humour too. Lighten up, PC crowd.

>> No.1437116

>whose interests are being served when someone...defends the right to make a rape joke

Americans

>> No.1437127

God, whoever is getting so heavy about a few rape/dead baby jokes needs to lighten up. Humour goes hand in hand with these things and always has. It's human.

>> No.1437134

>>1436981
>>1437012
No. You can joke about horrible things without suggesting these things are ok. Humour can even act as a coping mechanism. If you don't understand that, I sincerely hope nothing bad every happens to you.

>> No.1437135

>>1437083
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ-TVhKO7Vc

>> No.1437141
File: 7 KB, 205x189, 1291418904136.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1437141

>>1437134

>this post
>4chan

>> No.1437156

>>1437134
>>1437135
Here's an earlier post in reply to rape jokes:
>>1436724

>> No.1437165

>>1437127
Maybe they were raped.
I'm trying to remember, it's just there were so many...

>> No.1437195

>>1437127
you have to take into account that rape victims are already generally not taken very seriously in our society, much less seriously than something like dead babies, niggers or 9/11

>> No.1437201

>>1437156
>>1436724
<3 Zizek

>> No.1437213

>>1437195
>>1437195

I can't understand why you would say rape isn't taken seriously. Anyway, dead babies, niggers and 9/11 are quite obviously going to interest more people, I don't see the problem. It's not a suffering competition.

>> No.1437234

>>1437201
The man has something to say about everything, I swear. Watching the Perverts Guide to Cinema now.

Favorite one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo

>> No.1437235

>>1437213
People that are thought to have very likely to have been raped or molested are sometimes taken seriously in their concerns over those things.

People of whom others are less certain have been raped or molested are more often taken less seriously in their concerns over those things.

>> No.1437321

Bumping because I'm a pervert

>> No.1437448

>>1436803
Excuses are for the weak. Excuses are a way of rationalising why you're such a weak piece of shit as to let something that is ultimately trivial enslave you. Of course they can get over it, but they don't fucking want to. It makes them special, and the negative feelings that come with them are oddly seductive.

>> No.1437690

>>1437448
also a way of explaining to others how you feel. I understand hiding behind excuses telling you how you 'should' feel, instead of aspiring for your own wants. That sucks; we shouldn't do that. It's okay to do what we want and aspire.

>> No.1437711

>>1437235
People who don't want to believe they have been or someone close to them has been raped or molested are less likely to want to believe the story.

Also, to open your eyes to how fickle juries are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

>> No.1437729

>>1437083
a) Freedom of speech benefits everyone.
b) Just because no-one benefits doesn't mean you shouldn't do something.

>> No.1437768

>>1436866
rape is a power thing, not a sex thing and most guys have no intrest in actual rape, roleplaying is obviously not the same thing. Hence its about 5% of the men that do the raping and the sexual assaults and they are generally repeat offenders. There was a big study recently where they interviewed like hundreds of guys and thats where the 5% figure is coming from and the interview protocall was phrased like "have you ever forced a woman to have sex" rather than "have you ever raped" because the word rape always gets offenders to clam up. Anyway the rapists knew what they wanted and it was all about like getting one over on the chick like there are winners and losers to the sexual encounter and they go out of their way to try it with women they think won't talk about it or won't be believed if they do.

So yeah, its only like a relatively small segment of the population that are into it but yeah it is shroedingers rapist in a way, you can't know the guy is not a rapist but the odds are with you.

Oh and to be clear for the thread, I'm a guy and I enjoy rape roleplay on occasion but the idea of doing stuff to someone who isn't into it and making them go along with it for real is pretty unappealing.

Also recently in another study women's tears totally drops male arousal. Well for most men anyway. Its the smell of them apparently. It was on the nytimes frontpage the other day.

>> No.1437799

>>In trying to puzzle out how she could have sustained a bloody injury while she was unconscious, Dworkin gradually became convinced she'd been drugged and raped.

Maybe she just fell?

>> No.1437801

>>1437768
I'm going to say the sight and meaning of women's tears drops arousal more than the smell of them. for me, at least

>> No.1437815

>>1437801
you are in the minority I'm afraid.

>> No.1437835

>>1437799
Easily the best post in the thread.

Please, gals and guys, let's /thread.

>> No.1437848

>>1437768
>rape is a power thing, not a sex thing

A guy who rapes his daughter isn't doing it because he wants power over her.
That is just bullshit. Of course they don't want to say "I'm a rapist". It's like telling the judge "I'm a murderer"

>> No.1437851

>>1437801
I'm going to say you shouldn't value your baseless conjecture over some attempt at scientific analysis.

>>1437768
The three commonly noted reasons for rape are anger, power and sadism. #1 and 2 are not sexual, but #3 most definitely is. So you could definitely say, "rape isn't always about sex," but you couldn't say "rape is not about sex."

>> No.1437862

>>1437848
You can't honestly be saying that a man rapes his daughter because it's the easiest way to satisfy his need for sex. Raping your daughter is writing your ticket to prison, and people are terribly aware of it. SO yes, the compulsion is to have complete dominance over someone, the kind he couldn't get with anyone who wasn't, in so many ways, dependent on him.

>> No.1437904

>>1437862
Or maybe he just thinks his daughter is attractive?
Your typical criminal doesn't give a fuck about the law, obviously. Whether he'll get caught or not.

Rape isn't "a power thing" simply because most people don't think in those terms. They think about getting off.
Nobody says "Damn I would like to beat that bitch up, rape her, and show her I mean business!"
No, they say. "I want to fuck that bitch"

>> No.1437907

>>1437848
tell us why your dad raped you then and why the vast majority of rapists say they are into controlling and hurting their victims but totally aren't at all

Really, a dad raping his daughter couldn't be about power at all? There are huge numbers of childcare books (written by religious nuts) about how its important to beat your children from the age of 1 and up to maintain control over them and rape wouldn't at all be an extension of that. Just doesn't enter the picture.

And even if you have some anecdote in mind I'm referring to a study, and if need be I can go find the reference for you, where they interviewed hundreds of men, rapists and non rapists and not a hypothetical

>> No.1437919

>>1437904
You have no idea what you are talking about. Rapists are not the same as ordinary criminals.

Rapists like to rape. Why does a bank robber rob banks, it isn't because he likes robbing banks. Its for the money in them.

>> No.1437921

>>1437904
>Your typical criminal doesn't give a fuck about the law, obviously. Whether he'll get caught or not.
U trollan? Criminals think about this all the fucking time. It is, for fucking obvious reasons, their primary concern. That's why pedophiles or people in incestuous relationships will constantly harass the victim by saying things like, "if mommy finds out, she'll kill herself," "you're worthless now," "no one will believe you," and why rapists threaten their victims and purposefully pick people who they don't think will report them.

Did you ever think that YOU might not think in those terms because you're not, I don't know, a rapist or a criminal?

>> No.1438133
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1438133

>>1437921
>>1437919
>>1437904

>> No.1438178

>A guy who rapes his daughter isn't doing it because he wants power over her.

I think most guys who rape their own daughters already think of their children as basically their own chattel property, and so they don't consider it to be "rape", in the same way that antebellum Southern slaveholders having sex with their chattel property did not consider themselves to be "raping" their own slaves.

It's a difference in power dynamic that makes the act possible, and the act confirms that difference in power dynamic. ("Who's your daddy?", literally.) A father doesn't rape his daughter to enact some Nietzschean will-to-power, the way that a guy who pulls a knife and rapes you on the street may be interpreted as doing. It's a different type of power motivation, but power is still a big part of what's happening.