Has this ever been refuted?

[Anonymous No.14293095]

>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.

[Anonymous No.14293117]

>>14293095
What's to refute? Nothing he said is wrong - it just comes down to what you're after from fantasy books.

[Anonymous No.14293129]

lotr dreamlike fantasy
got down-to-earth fantasy

[Anonymous No.14293131]

>>14293095
Martin is probably the greatest Tolkien acolyte there ever was, but he remains an acolyte.

[Anonymous No.14293135]

>>14293095

This is a fun take on Tolkien's work. Especially the orc genocide.
But the answer is it doesn't matter, it's not what the story is about, Martin knows this, don't take everything at face value.

[Anonymous No.14293159]

>>14293095

>What happened outside the scope of the story? Why doesn't Tolkien tell us what happens after the book is finished?

I hope he is asking these questions in a "these are the things I want to write about" way, and not in a "Tolkien should have done this" kind of way. Either way, I don't believe he actually discusses taxation himself either?

[Anonymous No.14293189]

>>14293095
>What was Aragorn’s tax policy?
no one on Earth could conceivably give a fuck unless you're a gargantuan faggot
>Did he maintain a standing army?
Yes. This is literally in the book you fat mongoloid.
>What did he do in times of flood and famine?
They got flooded and starved. What else would medieval people do in times of flood and famine? This is why man vs. nature is the gayest of literary conflicts; floods and tornadoes aren't as interesting as sentient villains.
>Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Hopefully, since orcs are subhuman monsters who invade white civilization. In LOTR Gandalf acknowledges that defeating Sauron won't end all the evil in the world, so presumably there would be orcs, but who gives a fuck? Apparently Fatboy McDiabetes does.
> endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
Not only were all wars throughout history like that, but war today in 2019 is literally this, see pic related for a modern day orc. Anyways GRRM is a fatass faggot who writes shitty genre fiction and Tolkien wrote transcendental art that will still be read hundreds of years from now.

[Anonymous No.14293205]

If I ever wanted to read about tax laws and famine policies, guess what? I would read historical accounts of that shit. If I want to read something for fun? I will read about Dark Lords and Orc genocide at my leisure. What on Earth is there to refute about this statement?

[Anonymous No.14293209]

>>14293095
>my answer to Tolkien
Tolkien wasn't a question, you fat diabetic self-centered shit hackneyed soap-opera schlock peddler. This retard's hot takes on Tolkien will never cease to boil my blood. Tolkien is Homer tier. This asshole models his pen-name off of Tolkien, and then turns around and criticizes "everyone else" for writing shitty facsimiles of his mythopoeic epic as if his facile criticism of Aragorn's tax policy has anything to do with the literary achievement that is Lord of the Rings. What was Beowulf's tax policy? What went through Hrothgar's mind when he was squeezing out a fat, gritty, realistic drunken log in the grass behind Heorot? Was Hrunting fished up and used to kill little baby water demons in their little water demon cradles later on? How did Ecgtheow handle the Frisian refugees, was it kosher with modern political proclivities or can I use it to advertise my next brainlet normalfaggot trash joint on Good Morning America next weekend, in a lazy attempt to pose as somehow better than all the other shitty authors who are desperately trying to ride the timeless, resonant coattails of a far better man?

I hope you read this Gerorge you stupid fat fuck I'm going to be under your bed tonight grabbing at your low-circulation ankles in the middle of the night

[Anonymous No.14293215]

>>14293095
There is no such thing as orc babies as far as I know in Tolkien's world

[Anonymous No.14293216]

>>14293189

Holy fuck destroyed.

Worst of all is when G RR Martin said something along the lines of : 'Tolkien romanticized warfare, real war was much more brutal than that.'

I'm paraphrasing cause I can't be fucked to find the article. But you're saying a WWI veteran doesn't understand the horrors of war but you, a fat draft dodger does? Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.14293227]

>>14293215
There weren't even any female orcs in LOTR so they'd be literal buttbabies

[Anonymous No.14293231]

>>14293095
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper.
That is the whole point, you fucking faggot.
>The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes.
Said the faggot who created the Others.

[Anonymous No.14293232]

>>14293209
>>14293189

I love this thread

[Anonymous No.14293240]

Doesn't top the deathblow China Miéville dealt Tolkien back in 2002:

>Though he idealises the rural petty bourgeoisie, Tolkien treats them with enormous condescension. 'It would be a grievous blow', he says, if the Dark Power were to claim the Shire - to translate, if rural workers were industrialised. Because the good professor loves them so, with their hand-mills and their funny little rural ways. Not that he would want to be one, of course - good lord, no. He has a PhD, don't you know.

http://socialistreview.org.uk/259/tolkien-middle-earth-meets-middle-england

[Anonymous No.14293244]

>>14293216
WWI no less, Tolkien literally participated in mounted trench warfare with a rifle in hand and a sword on hip, and took care of his fucking horse at night while mustard gas was burning people's lungs from the inside out, and his transcendent ability to revive the Anglo-Saxon mythopoeic form, the grail quest, was born from the uniquely cutting edge linguistic theories of his time that language was one of the most fundamental generative forces in culture, so HE INVENTED MORE THAN A DOZEN grammatically, syntactically consistent languages before ever writing so much as a children's story, from his office as a professor at one of the most renowned universities in the world having survived the largest and most technologically advanced war ever in human history

AND GRRM KNOWS BETTER

[Anonymous No.14293247]

>>14293216
what the hell is he even talking about though, really getting murdered by orcs is way worse than your average occupation. they are a living plague that murder you, enslave you or eat you. unlike a real occupation, nobody escapes it. you're a human? you're food now.

fucking dumbass. just because tolkien doesn't describe someone being eaten alive by goblins doesn't mean it isn't happening every time an outpost of man is overrun.

[Anonymous No.14293258]

>>14293240
Dude looks like he wants to fight and talks like he wants to fight. I'd love to knock him the fuck out because nothing he says is worth discussing

[Anonymous No.14293261]

>>14293240
What the fuck is this faggots problem. Does he really think Sauron and Saruman only stand for industrialisation? How do you even have such a superficial take of the setting.

[Anonymous No.14293263]

>>14293261
That's your brain on exclusively secondary or tertiary sources, and modern academia

[Anonymous No.14293264]

>>14293240

Nigger they are HALFLINGS, HOBBITS, GNOMES. Yes they're quirky and fun but would you like to be one? A little pipe smoking fucker with hairy feet and a flabby stomach? I think not.

[Anonymous No.14293272]

>daenarys squeezed out a doleful turd there squatting realistically in the underbrush, while political machinations swirled around in her minds eye like last evenings swill in her bowels.
>Dysentery.
>A thing for malnourished soldiery and corpse collectors, not for a woman of standing. Her lip curled in disgust. She'd have the cook beat. Another miserable turd landed softly in the grass. Taxes.
>Death and taxes.
>She grunts.

[Anonymous No.14293303]

>>14293189
undeniably based

[Anonymous No.14293308]

>>14293272
>As time went on her shits only grew in strength. In scope. In size. Soon she was shitting out more than entire villages of people, with a thirst to match. The cycle would only grow as it continued.

>Time went on and eventually only oceans could satisfy her thirst and subsequent ass-gravy ejections. The world was thrown into disarray as water became scarcer and scarcer, and only the ever-growing mounds of dooky-butter could be found amongst the wasterland.

>In time, Earth had become exhausted of all resources. But it was not to cease to mad shitter. She became spaceborn, travelling through the cosmos searching for water to sustain the eternal shittery she had become embroiled in. Countless planets fell to her thirst as a trail of turd-juice was left in her wake.

>And so she was became shit, dumper of worlds.

[Anonymous No.14293361]

>>14293308
Chapter 2: Edited by Chris Metzen
>Beyond the northern wall of high ice, for which the metaphorical mortar was gritty realism itself, despite the fact that the ice wall was not made of parts in need of metaphorical mortaring but was, rather, of a solid nature, John Snow pondered on the failure of his metaphor as a metaphor for his own failures
>there shitting in the fresh white down John Snow frowned as the soft whisper of a turd disappeared in the drift between his ankles.
>"taxes." He said. His breath was foggy
>"a King should tax people fairly."
>"but sometimes it's more complicated."
>another voice entered the clearing, hard and realistic like steel but inhuman like a sword not made by the hands of any man. A white walker appeared from within the trees
>"so it seems" John snow pulls up his stained trousers
>the white walker king was like the Lich King but not really, his undead armies were basically the same except not, because the White Walker King had a
Smarter tax policy, a thing with which Arthas was never so concerned
>the white walker king dropped his drawers
>John snow scowled realistically, manfully, flawed, prideful, and they two shit together in the woods man and unman, politicizing and taxifying with each other long into the night
>"Tolkien was okay"

[Anonymous No.14293377]

>>14293308
>>14293361
Holy shit lmao

[Anonymous No.14293393]

>>14293209

Insanely based post

[Anonymous No.14293403]

>>14293240
>Not that he would want to be one, of course - good lord, no

What? Bilbo in LOTR is practically a self-insert

[Anonymous No.14293407]

>>14293240
faggot earrings

[Anonymous No.14293410]

>>14293240
Mieville's an unrepentant Marxist so I'm not surprised.

[Anonymous No.14293420]

>>14293410
Why can't marxists help themselves they always seem to "deconstruct" everything that is self evidently resonant with anyone

[Anonymous No.14293434]

>>14293420

Because they can't create, only imitate and criticize.

[Anonymous No.14293451]

>>14293420
>>14293434
Have sex.

[Anonymous No.14293471]

>>14293451

Does my hand count?

[Anonymous No.14293662]

>>14293131
Martin can't be a Tolkien acolyte, since he just copies Tad Williams.

[Anonymous No.14293674]

>>14293227
They were raping elves.

[Anonymous No.14293682]

>>14293209
God is with this Anon and we give Him thanks.

[Anonymous No.14293683]

>>14293095
>Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Yet another reason why his smut books belong in a dumpster fire.

[Anonymous No.14293685]

>>14293189
reminder, these are the sort of autists that get triggered by this quote

[Anonymous No.14293688]

>>14293451
>"Have sex"
>posting on a George RR Martin thread on /lit/
hahahahah okay alpha dog

[Anonymous No.14293738]

>>14293095
For a board about literature you guys take things way too literally.

[Anonymous No.14293796]

>>14293264
>would you like to be one? A little pipe smoking fucker with hairy feet and a flabby stomach?
God I wish that was me.

[Anonymous No.14293909]

>>14293796

Yeah when I was typing that I realized that it wouldn't be so bad actually.

[Anonymous No.14294273]

>game of thrones author criticizing anyone
>ever
Shiggy

[Anonymous No.14294290]

>>14294273
Technically he wasn't criticizing Tolkien

[Anonymous No.14294912]

>>14293189
So that's where the LOTR tax policy meme come from!

[Anonymous No.14296443]

>>14293095
Yes. Tolkien himself started writing a sequel called "The New Shadow" that would go into all of this content, but decided that it was too dreary and cruel, and he didn't want to write it anymore:

>I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing.
>>—J.R.R. Tolkien[1]

[Anonymous No.14296473]

>>14293095
friendly reminder that martin never explains the tax system or currency in his own creation

[Anonymous No.14296479]

>>14293240
does he know where tolkien grew up?

[Anonymous No.14297521]

>>14296473
This, and don't get me started on how fucked up the weather can be and how it could destroy the economy depending of the season

[Anonymous No.14297531]

>>14296473
He briefly mentions Jaehaerys' tax policy in Fire and Blood

[Anonymous No.14297930]

>>14293095
jfc genres have rules and domestic administrative policy
is not one of this genre's rules.

[Anonymous No.14298006]

>>14293095
Martin has a surface-level understanding of the man he "admires".

>>14293189
>Gandalf acknowledges that defeating Sauron won't end all the evil in the world, so presumably there would be orcs
You have a surface level understanding as well, Gandalf was referring to the fact that Arda is marred, the evil substance of Melkor is infused with the very earth itself, and will remain so until it is remade.

[Anonymous No.14298174]

>>14293095
>endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.

Is any war really like that though?

[Anonymous No.14298181]

>>14293189
>This is why man vs. nature is the gayest of literary conflicts; floods and tornadoes aren't as interesting as sentient villains.
Mythology has understood this since forever. This perspective doesn't even disprove their authenticity.

[Anonymous No.14298382]

>>14293095
reminder that Wagner surprassed Tolkien even before he was born