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14207535 No.14207535 [Reply] [Original]

Monthly Reading, November: Let The Right One In

SFF Charts Gallery

/sffg/ Group

Threads, Other Charts, Recs, Release Dates, Downloads, etc

Previous Threads

>> No.14207552

sanderfag a hack

>> No.14207557

Sandershit a god damn hack.

>> No.14207568

hackshit is a motherfucking sander

>> No.14207599

I recently finished Lightbringer and I don't know what to read next. Any recommendations anons?
I'm looking for something that is comfy but also philosophical.

>> No.14207605


>> No.14207630

Licanius trilogy

>> No.14207646

book of the new sun

>> No.14207677

Be on your guard.
Posters have admitted they intentionally rec stuff they didn't like to inflict it on others and others are known to only provide troll recs.
Be safe in here.

>> No.14207743

anyone have any suggestions for low magic fantasy set in historical middle age europe, besides the once and future king?

>> No.14207788

anyone have any recommendations for high science fiction set in future america, besides the twice and past queen?

>> No.14207811

Why is [insert generic dark lord archetype here] evil? What are his motivations?

>> No.14207812
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Read Masters of Rome

>> No.14207861

Just finished the new Joe Abercrombie book and liked it. Why is he so disliked, and what would you recommend next?

>> No.14207899

anyone have any advice on how to be a better poster, besides the obvious?

>> No.14207978

so you gave up with the best of SFF strawpoll, eh?

>> No.14208056

The Bridei Chronicles.
>Pict Kid raised by a Druid
>Shit happens
>Also there's a half Fae qt

I read it years ago so I don't remember much of it. Fem*id author though so expect a bunch of rape and misery.

>> No.14208074

Quick question
I've been using Internet Explorer to read epubs but its dropped support
what is a good epub reader?

>> No.14208079


>> No.14208149

Masters of Rome

>> No.14208196
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>> No.14208199

Mists of Avalon

>> No.14208452

I miss questions in the OP

>> No.14208815 [DELETED] 
File: 446 KB, 676x481, castings[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Just picked this up. What am I in for?

>> No.14208934

Does the thought of reading a mediocre book terrify you?

>> No.14208940

Read obscure books. Tell us what you think. Give us your dino rating.

>> No.14208968

>what is a good epub reader?

What does this even mean, though? it literally just needs to display the ebook and have bookmarks.

>> No.14208975

>taking things you read on 4chan seriously
No shit retard. Things like Sarah J Maas, Jim Butcher and Brent Weeks have been spammed here for years.

>> No.14208997

I keep meaning to read this, but I refuse to buy any copy where the cover is from the film. I want this one

>> No.14209001

I really love this aesthetic. Do you guys have more like this, from different artists?

>> No.14209009

current slave is useless yet full of himself, he'll be along to whine in a bit

>> No.14209037

Not gonna lie, this looks fantastic.
I hope this won't be a disappointment, anon.

>> No.14209166

it means
>On PC
>Won't flood my PC with adverts or other bullshit

>> No.14209262


>> No.14209282

exactly the time and place i was hoping for, but i figured that would be too specific a request. thanks, i'll check it out.
i have that, but haven't read it yet. i'll move it up the queue. thanks.

>> No.14209332

Is there anything out there written in a far future setting about a royal family in a kingdom of gothic architecture and labyrinthine castles featuring various kinds of subterfuge and backstabbing?

>> No.14209367

Like Gormenghast? What does far furture have to do with the rest of it though?

>> No.14209722

this is almost exactly what gideon the ninth was but I still don't think it's what you're looking for

>> No.14209731

Masters of Rome

>> No.14209759


Maybe Dune? I don't recall any Gothic architecture but >>14209367 fits the bill more. Though it doesn't become a blend of sci-fi until the third book. I like how Peake just went crazy with it and somehow managed to make the concept work very well. I'm really curious to what the other parts were going to be about. You could also check out China Mieville, his Perdido Street Station might be what you're after. Definitely has the Gothic architecture vibe down since it was inspired by Peake.

>> No.14209849


>> No.14209854

Book of the New Sun

>> No.14210112

>finishing off half read books
>now don't know if I want to stick to finishing them off or read the sequels as I finally complete their preceding books
Don't abandon books kids it'll lead to a domino effect of more and more half read stuff.

>> No.14210154
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>got bored and dropped another book halfway through
Why can't I enjoy reading anymore? Why can't I find something as my dumb fantasy mangas

>> No.14210160

>falling for the "read for smart, not for fun" meme
you're never gonna make it

>> No.14210164

But anon that's literally my proboblem I can't find anything fun

>> No.14210195

im gonna have to get into some series' next year to avoid running out of books after reading almost entirely either first books of new stuff or latest sequels of stuff this year

There's a genuine art to reading as much as I do and unintentionally avoiding almost every established genre classic

>> No.14210369

>>1420845 The questions are rarely responded to when I had them, including again recently when no one did. They weren't responded to really before either.
>>14207978 No, it finished, just not as a strawpoll. Read the threads.
>>14209009 Whereas "useless" means "doesn't do exactly everything I want and talks back to me rather than silently obeying everything".
>>14209001 May or may not be similar in the pastebin of artists I'm using for the OP.

>> No.14210469

most people organize their ebooks with calibre and use an either the phone, a dedicated e-reader or some software to read the books since calibres built in ebook reader is pretty bad. people often suggest sumatra pdf or readium( browser extension). in the past people also used edge for ebook reading but that functionality is lost now since edge has been changed from ground up to be just another chrome fork.

>> No.14210491
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Is this good taste?

>> No.14210503

Is the Red Rising series good?

>> No.14210556

It's fun

>> No.14210595

The first goodreads review for Shadow of the Torturer is brutal. It's an essay just ripping the book apart

>> No.14210710

Are there any sexist /sff/ books?

>> No.14210719


>> No.14210733

>Perdido Shit Station
Disgusting. Worst book I've read in a long time.
Terrible taste 0/10

>> No.14210735

Most of the ones worth reading

>> No.14210816

It's edgy young adult revenge porn, but it isn't bad for what it is.

Older /sff/ books tend to be.

>> No.14210920

Overall most are.

>> No.14210946

>american gods
cliched edgelord crap with every character a flat stereotype that seems like it was the first draft written by a talented, but raw, and very sheltered 16 year old. i only made it through chapter 2 before i literally threw it away. glad i only paid a buck for it at a thrift store.

>> No.14210969

I remember trying to bootleg Hyperion and I got the other book from 2 centuries ago and I had no idea why it was considered fantasy much less a good book.

>> No.14211017

I read the whole book years ago and don't remember a damn thing about it, so it must have been pretty mediocre you didn't miss much

>> No.14211025
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>> No.14211085

Did you read The City and the City?

>> No.14211105

Nearly everything from the last century. For current stuff you need to read self-published litrpg. Maybe Asian stuff too. Je-- uh, publishers want woke.

>> No.14211107

A book that isn't SFF.

>> No.14211128

I'm legitimately baffled how Neil Gaiman receives so much praise, his dialogue reads like it was written by a autistic child, I can't deal with the god awful prose and attempts at "muh worldbuilding" but what the actual fuck is with Wednesday's dialogue when he's speaking to women?

>> No.14211134


>> No.14211153

> I can't deal with
I assume you meant "can deal with", but accidentally typed the truth instead.

>> No.14211161

You know damn well historical fiction is fantasy adjacent

>> No.14211169

So is horror and a lot of others.

>> No.14211190

Glad that there are. Some recommendations would have been nice tho.

>> No.14211193

good thing this thread's book of the month isn't fucking horror then

>> No.14211206

Tamer King of Dinosaurs is pure, ridiculous male fantasy but avoid if you don't like monster girls

>> No.14211220
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2/5, it's an ok book. Should have seen the woke shit coming just because it was recommended by Oprah.
Fucking independent women in middle ages, lol.

>> No.14211239
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>new york times best selling author
Holy shit how did they let that guy slip between their fingers.
Btw that's fucking got to be Chris Prat

>> No.14211241

>popular thing bad

>> No.14211262

Sexism isn't really something to generate a rec from. Simply too vague. Read Gor or something.

>> No.14211272

Is that the reason why most of /sffg/ hates grimdark? I sometimes see people give good arguments saying it's being dark for sake of being dark, but I don't expect a browsing here to be rational.

>> No.14211284

How about some non woke stuff

>> No.14211285

I don't know but if you liked the Black Company's unit-level camaraderie and don't mind maybe a bit more moralism you should read Sharpe.

>> No.14211332
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Again, pick up almost anything pre 2000...
Here read this

>> No.14211339

Rumor has it hes making bank now even after being kicked from amazon.
The 6th book has been released a few weeks ago and was financed via kickstarter. It hit 15k$ after a few hours.

>> No.14211346

Fucking hahahahhahahhabhababhhhabaha so he is that based

>> No.14211351

Why would he get kicked off amazon? Are they a publisher and distributor? Aren't those just generic monstergirl smut?

>> No.14211359
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any of the halo books worth reading?

>> No.14211366

I bought his audiobook off of Bandcamp just because of the shit Amazon put him through.

>> No.14211374

Supposedly hes been cheating the kindle unlimited system somehow. But amazons reasons to him why he had been kicked off kept changing and in the trials no concrete answer was given. In the end it didn't really matter since amazon can kick you for no reason what so ever. The allegations against him have not been proven but also not been dis-proven so no one knows. that being said he is still incredibly popular.
Tamer 6 raised 80k on kickstarter alone.

>> No.14211379

The King of Ireland's Son

>> No.14211380

The polls are always rigged, deal with it.

>> No.14211385

all of his stories are exactly the same and it's tiring to read about vain youth #451 and disgruntled veteran #574

>> No.14211397

The last I heard (someone here probably knows better) it sounded like some kind of algorithm thing where Uni says he cheated but none of the humans can specify why. He went indie on Amazon but then had to go double indie and move to other platforms. Next he'll be selling books for commissary, smuggled out of prison on mimeograph paper stuffed up some dude's ass. God bless him.

>> No.14211413


>> No.14211544

Yes. Dependable B-grade military sf.

>> No.14211799

>incredibly popular.

>> No.14211911

>Jim Butcher and Brent Weeks
>is in the same shit garbage league as Sarah "lemme pinch that fat ass" maas

>> No.14211955

He was accused of botting clicks on kindle unlimited

>> No.14212236

The second apocalypse books

>> No.14212341

How much gri did you guys read for the year?

>> No.14212535

As much as anyone should, none.

>> No.14212563

none. I'm not a degenerate moron

>> No.14212566

If you care about the games, sure.

>> No.14212717

be prepared to be strung along basically forever
>almost a resolution
>haha! but there's not! come back for the next 16 installments to see what happens next!

>> No.14212742
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author looks like a total nonce

this is why you should check for a pic of the author first before you read their work: if you find their appearance repugnant, there's a 95% chance you'll find their work repugnant

>> No.14212769

Right on cue. Good boy.

>> No.14213024
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/sffg/, I'm trying to choose a weapon for a cute autistic girl in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Which sounds best?

>bow and arrow
>sling staff
>slingshot staff

I'm leaning towards slingshot staff, but I can't tell if it's cool or just goofu

>> No.14213143

>women using weapons

Always goofy.

Bow and arrow was the zeitgeist-y YA protagonist weapon a few years back a la Hunger Games.

>> No.14213191

bow and arrow is the cliched girl weapon. give the cute girl her own special snowflake staff
be sure to include a scene where she fucks herself with it

>> No.14213209

I'm currently back on track with the thousandfold thought.
I'm digging it again.

>> No.14213272

How do I write a YA fantasy that sells 10 million copies and gets a movie adaptation?

I don't care if they sell to boys or girls or both.

>> No.14213323

A girl in a love triangle has to overcome adversity to defeat the evil empire. Usually after finding out she has some special ability. One of the boys should be a rebel, and the other should be obscenely rich.

>> No.14213480

Masters of Rome

>> No.14213694

What was the twilight shank's specialty? Smelling like food?
The werewolf was a rebel, and Edward was obscenely rich. And they had to fight the ebil elders for their love and demon baby.

>> No.14213701

Can I get a recommendation for AIs gone bad like "I Have No Mouth, However I Must Scream?"

>> No.14213711

I read one where the ai was experimenting on people recently...
Look for the penny royal novels by neal asher. I don't know if they will list which books she was in.

>> No.14213987

Something that's not as good as The Warlord Chronicles by Bernard Cornwell

>> No.14213997

That is the first book of the warlord chronicles.

>> No.14214052

Unironically yes.

>> No.14214204
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To the anon that wanted more William like books.

>> No.14214506

Her specialty was being prime breeding material that even an infertile vampire was able to knock up.

>> No.14214516

Oh shit
Something that is the Warlord Chronicles

>> No.14214639


>> No.14214738

Beholder's Eye has a pivotal scene take place at notchristmas in the snow

>> No.14214855

>starship's mage
I'm afraid to ask

>> No.14214905

>an infertile vampire
So.... was Edward cucked?
Also, what is with women and fucking corpses? I read a book(female author) where the protagonist (a witch) placed her vampire lover into a bathtub with hot water and some magic spell, and his body turned that of room temperature (which allowed his little swimmers to wake up) then he pumped all his literal warmed up dead juice in her cunny and made her preggers with living vampire twins.
Of course there was long prose that tried to make necrophilia sexy.... Women are fucked up. Never read a book where a warlock fucks a female vampire and tried to get her dead preggers. At least we males dick the living.

>> No.14214907

Actually pretty good. Can be a bit dry at times but the story has lot of intrigue and plot twists while not entire surprising are pretty nicely presented. It's similar to what Alan Black writes but not comedic in nature.

>> No.14214932

Left hand of darkness

>> No.14215013

No but that’s how special she was. She was able to give birth to an undead monster baby.

>> No.14215160

50 Shades of Grey is the most successful web novel/web serial.

>> No.14215346

For women and gay men, sure.

>> No.14215411
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>> No.14215417
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when will sf fags accept that fantasy is the better genre?

>> No.14215440

As soon as fantasy fags accept that Historical Fiction is not only the superior genre but belongs in this general .

>> No.14215476

Historical fiction is just fanfiction for historyboos

>> No.14215581

Took some time off but just started Urth of the New Sun. I assume this will be much more sci-fi oriented than the Book of the New Sun

>> No.14215681
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>> No.14215682
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>Thing me like better then thing u like

>> No.14215897 [DELETED] 


>> No.14215908
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>> No.14215971

As soon as they understand all science fiction eventually becomes outdated, but fantasy is inherently timeless

>> No.14216355

That sounds just awful

>> No.14216513

Can someone remind me the name of the book about an amnesiac charlatan god in the cart?

>> No.14216589

>in the cart

>> No.14216880

Helliconia: Winter perhaps if you don't find it too fantasy-like.

>> No.14216976

I am reading a Game of Thrones. I'm ~50 pages in. Question is: Will it get any better?

>> No.14216989

I am Dûnyain, so simply from the way you type I can ascertain, through my probability trance, that you all need to read the Darkness That Comes Before.

>> No.14217027

No. First three books are are great. If you aren't a little bit pulled in by now drop it.

>> No.14217300

Lightbringer was a disappointment.

>> No.14217328


>> No.14217443

Did that already faggot.

>> No.14217557

Enjoy your eternal damnation.

>> No.14217583

Is the genre of litrpg unbearably pathetic, and I don't use the word lightly, cringe, or am I out of touch.

>> No.14217624

To each their own.

>> No.14217654

It's a genre of which the vast majority is utter trash. You also need to be at least some kind of fan of /v/ and /a/ to start with to enjoy the few that do have some redeeming features.

>> No.14217697

It's a pretty dumb genre because it's taking a type of videogame that is entirely derivative of SFF writing/cinema and then trying to make writing that is then derivative of it.
All of the changes from literary fantasy to RPG games and ones necessitated by the videogame medium so when you convert this back to the page you're just adding constraints to the writing that provide no actual improvement to the text.

Besides this it's an obviously cynical attempt to get sales out of a certain type of nerd who doesn't read much and the actual fantasy it offers is so pathetic that I can't see the appeal to a reader.

>> No.14217759

The vast majority of any genre is shit relative to the best examples of that genre. The specific problem with Litrpg is lower overall standards owing to a lack of barrier to entry, the lack of any works that stand out as examples of quality, and the narrow demographic and derivative nature of the subgenre driving away authors who aren't specifically fixated on the subgenre. I also suspect that most authors who do fixate on the subgenre are motivated by a lack of broader exposure to literature and/or some form of OCD, both of which are limiting factors.

>> No.14217839

Yea. A lot of the authors are OCD or numberphiles. Their fixation on stats is telling.

A lot of them are utter shit, and make you cringe hard. Even the "good" ones have shit in them. Most of the authors not having an actual story to tell and just wanting to showoff their "cool world" makes the genre even worse. >>14214204 is some of the best I read in the genre (and that is saying a lot).

>> No.14218325

Recommend sff books where religious and philosophy people get raped often.

>> No.14218599

>page 6
The end is near. Repent and pray.

>> No.14218630

Not anon but I'm reading it now and it's my first taste of China and I love it.

>> No.14218666

Edward's vampire power was that he could hear people's thoughts but he couldn't hear Bella's.

The joke is that her head is empty

>> No.14218714

Is that why she was always emo and emotionless?

>> No.14218810

if the slingshot channel is anything to go off of, the "hoopak" or "kabuto" as it's called is actually a fairly effective weapon as long as you make sure the bottom is planted firmly in the ground. That said, it's not clear if it's because the version he tested used four rubber bands instead of two

>> No.14218833

Wolfe has an almost legendary status amongst fellow authors; Gaiman called him 'a ferocious intellect', Swanwick said he's "the greatest writer in the English language alive today", and Disch called this series "a tetralogy of couth, intelligence, and suavity".

You can rarely trust the popular market to single out good authors, but you'd think it might be safe to listen to the opinions of other writers (especially an assemblage of Nebula and Hugo winners in their own right). I will give his fans one concession: Wolfe is an author who defies expectations. Unfortunately, I was expecting him to be remarkable and interesting.

This book had been sitting on my shelf for months, along with other highly-praised works I've been looking forward to, but I bade my time, waiting for the mood to strike. Few live up to their reputation, but most at least deliver part of the promise.

I would expect any author mentioned in the same breath as Peake to have an original and vibrant style, but I found Wolfe's writing to be simple without being elegant. His language and structure serves its purpose, only occasionally rising above mere utilitarianism, and then he rushes to florid flourishes that fall flat as often as they succeed. Sometimes, it is downright dull. The prose of the second book is stronger than the first, but its plot and characters are more linear and predictable.

I appreciated his 'created language' more than most fantasy authors, but I didn't find it particularly mysterious or difficult, because all of his words are based on recognizable Germanic or Romantic roots. Then again, after three years of writing stories about Roman whores in Latin, I had little problem with 'meretriculous'. Even those words I wasn't familiar with seemed clear by their use.

The terms are scattered throughout the book, but rarely contribute to a more pervasive linguistic style, as might be seen in The Worm Ouroboros, The Lord of the Rings, Gormenghast, or The King of Elfland's Daughter. Wolfe's terms pepper otherwise and unremarkable modern style, which hardly helps to throw us into a strange world.

He is better than the average fantasy author, but he resembles them more than he differs from them. His protagonist started off interestingly enough: an apparently weak and intelligent man, which made it all the more disappointing when he suddenly transformed into a laconic, wench-loving buttkicker who masters sword-fighting, finds the Super Magic Thing and follows the path of his Awesome Foretold Fate. Again, I must agree with Nick Lowe: Wolfe's plot owes more to magic and convenience than good storytelling.

>> No.14218840

It relies on the same tricks over and over: any time a character is about to give important information to us, there will be a sudden attack or other interruption, as convenient and annoying as the moment when the dying man says "I was killed by . . . aargh". We also get problems solved by divine intervention whenever things start to slow, which doesn't leave the characters much room to be active.

He also seems to suffer from the same sexual discomfort that plagues so many fantasy authors. There is an undercurrent of obsession with women and their sexuality, complete with the sexualization of rape and murder. It's not so much a case of misogyny as it is an inequality in how characters behave.

The women always seem to end up as playtoys for the narrator, running around naked, desiring him, sparring with him coyly, but ultimately, conquered; and the camera pans away. They always approach him, desire him, pretending they don't want him, then give themselves up to him. It's the same old story of an awkward, emotionless male protagonist who is inexplicably followed and harangued by women who fall in love with him for no given reason, familiar to anyone who's seen a harem anime.

I will grant that the women have more character than the average fantasy heroine, but it still doesn't leave them with much. Instead of giving into love at first sight, they fight it as long as they can, making it that much sweeter when the narrator finally 'wins'. The sexuality was not new, interesting, arousing, or mutual, it was merely the old game of 'overcoming the strong woman' that is familiar to readers of the Gor books.

The sense of 'love' in The New Sun is even more unsettling. It descends on the characters suddenly and nonsensically, springing to life without build or motivation. The word never comes up in connection with any psychological development, nor does it ever seem to match the relationships as they are depicted. More often than not, it seems love is only mentioned so the narrator can coldly break his lover's trust in the next chapter.

Several times, the narrator tries to excuse himself for objectifying women by mentioning that he also objectifies ugly women. What this convolution of misogyny is supposed to represent, I couldn't say. The narrator seems very interested in this fact, and is convinced that it makes him a unique person. It made it very clear to me why the most interesting antiheroes tend to be gruff and laconic, because listening to a chauvinistic sociopath talk about himself is insufferable.

>> No.14218843

Then there is the fact that every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot. It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes. If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.

Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there. There are no normal people in this world, only double agents and kings in disguise. Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.

This can be an effective technique, but in combination with a world of infinite, unpredictable intrigue, Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him--I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.

I agree with this reviewer that there is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it. Without that, it is not possible to determine meaning, because there's nowhere to start: everything is equally shaky.

At that point, it's just a trick--adding complexity to the surface of the story without actually producing any new meaning. I know most sci fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake, but it's a cardinal sin of storytelling: don't add something into your story unless it needs to be there. Covering the story with a lot of vagaries and noise may impress some, but won't stand up to careful reading.

Fantasy novels are often centered on masculinity, violence, and power struggles, and so by making the narrator an emotionally distant manipulator with sociopathic tendencies, Wolfe's story is certainly going to resemble other genre outings. If Severian is meant to be a subversion of the grim antihero, I would expect a lot of clever contradiction which revealed him. His unreliability would have to leave gaping holes that point to another, more likely conclusion. If the protagonist's mendacious chauvinism is not soundly contradicted, then there is really nothing separating him from what he is supposed to be mocking.

>> No.14218844

Two points of view is one too many

>> No.14218845

This is from Goodreads, right?

>> No.14218848

Poe's Law states that it can be difficult to tell whether something is an act of mockery or an example of genuine extremism, and perhaps that's what's going on here: Wolfe's mockery is so on-the-nose that it is indistinguishable from other cliche genre fantasy. But even if that were true, then the only thing separating Wolfe from the average author is the fact that he's doing it on purpose, which is hardly much of a distinction. If a guy punches himself in the nose and then insists "I meant to do that", I don't think that makes him any less of a dumbass.

Human psychology and politics are fraught enough without deliberately obfuscating them. Unfortunately, Wolfe does not have the mastery of psychology to make a realistically complicated text, only a cliched text that is meta-complicated.

After finishing the book, I tried to figure out why it had garnered so much praise. I stumbled across a number of articles, including this one by Gaiman and this one by an author who wrote a book of literary analysis about the New Sun series.

Both stressed that Wolfe was playing a deliberate meta-fictional game with his readers, creating mysteries and clues in his book for them to follow, so that they must reread the text over and over to try to discern what is actually happening. I won't claim this isn't a technical feat, but I would suggest that if Wolfe wanted us to read his book over and over, he might have written it with verve, style, character, and originality. As the above critic says:
"On a first, superficial reading, there is little to distinguish Wolfe’s tetralogy from many other sf and fantasy novels . . . The plot itself is apparently unremarkable."

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I have no interest in reading your average sword-wielding badass gender-challenged fantasy book over and over in the hopes that it will get better. If Wolfe is capable of writing an original and interesting story, why cover it with a dull and occasionally insulting one?

I have enjoyed complex books before, books with hidden messages and allusions, but they were interesting both in their depths and on the surface. I didn't find the New Sun books particularly complex or difficult. His followers have said that he isn't 'concerned with being conspicuously witty', but I'd suggest he's merely incapable of being vibrant or intriguing.

There were interesting ideas and moments in the book, and I did appreciate what originality Wolfe did have, but I found it strange that such a different mind would produce such hidebound prose, tired descriptions, convenient plots, and unappealing characters. It has usually been my experience that someone who is capable of thinking remarkable things is capable of writing remarkable things.

>> No.14218854

Sure, there were some interesting Vancian moments, where you realize that some apparently magical effect is actual a piece of sci fi detritus: this character is a robot, that tower is actually a rocket, a painting of a mythical figure clearly depicts an astronaut--but this doesn't actually add anything to the story, they weren't important facts, they were just details thrown in.

It didn't matter that any of those things were revealed to be something else than they appeared, because it didn't change anything about the story, or the characters, or the themes or ideas. These weren't vital and strange ideas to be explored, like the mix of sci fi and fantasy in Vance, Le Guin, or M. John Harrison, but inconsequential 'easter eggs' for obsessing fans to dig up.

As Clarke's Third Law says: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Therefore, switching back and forth between magical explanations and super-technological ones doesn't mean much, on its own. They're indistinguishable. Star Wars may use the trappings of sci fi, but it's just a fantasy story about wizards and knights in space. In order to make the distinction meaningful, you've got to put some kind of spin on it.

Overall, I found nothing unique in Wolfe. Perhaps it's because I've read quite a bit of odd fantasy; if all I read was mainstream stuff, then I'd surely find Wolfe unpredictable, since he is a step above them. But compared to Leiber, Howard, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.

Perhaps I just got my hopes up too high. I imagined something that might evoke Peake or Leiber (at his best), perhaps with a complexity and depth gesturing toward Milton or Ariosto. I could hardly imagine a better book than that, but even a book half that good would be a delight--or a book that was nothing like that, but was unpredictable and seductive in some other way.

I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening. I did find some promise, some moments that I would have loved to see the author explore, particularly those odd moments where Silver Age Sci Fi crept in, but each time he touched upon these, he would return immediately to the smallness of his plot and his annoying prick of a narrator. I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague, and the dull parts constant and repetitive.

The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation, and perhaps that's what some readers find appealing: that they can superimpose their own thoughts and values onto the narrator, and onto the plot itself. But at that point, they don't like the book Wolfe wrote, they like the book they are writing between his lines.

>> No.14218861

I'll lend the book out to some fantasy-loving friends and they'll buy the next one, which I'll then have to borrow from them so I can see if there's ever a real payoff. Then again, if Sevarian's adolescent sexuality is any evidence, the climax will be as underwhelming as the self-assured, fumbling foreplay. If I don't learn to stop giving my heart away, it's just going to get broken again.

Ah well, once more unto the breach.

>> No.14218862


>> No.14218871

No it’s fucking awful

>> No.14218882

Brent bartender weeks should certainly be

>> No.14218885

I always check a authors twitter and if I see any woke posts I don’t bother reading them. It’s why I’m not going to read powdermage

>> No.14218901

It’s the worst genre that has ever been created and shouldn’t be in the general

>> No.14219130

We love Bakker.

Light shines, or whatever the saying is.

>> No.14219136

Sorry no but you should read AIs gone "good": The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.

>> No.14219216

>As soon as fantasy fags accept that Historical Fiction is not only the superior genre but belongs in this general .

/sffhfhog/ - science fiction and fantasy and historical fiction and horror general

>> No.14219253

One nation, one god, one leader, one point of view

>> No.14219354

Anyone else hate it when a story has a good setting, interesting characters, and an engaging plot but completely turns to shit whenever the author tries their hand at writing any sort of combat or action scene?

>> No.14219363

Just caught up on Sanderson's Wax and Wayne series, what a fucking cliffhanger on book 3. I did not anticipate liking this series as much as I have, I only picked it up cause I'd read everything else of Sanderson's and had nothing currently on my plate after finishing Dune. Ordinarily this kinda setting doesn't interest me (I have an abiding aversion to anything that remotely smells of "steampunk") but it's been a real blast and Sanderson's character writing is better than it's ever been. Where was this colorful characterization in Stormlight Archive? Granted I love Kaladin and Dalinar, but so many of those characters took ages for me to come around to and I fell in love with Wax and Wayne in half a book.

>> No.14219374

Like, they try so goddamn hard but they can't capture the flow or feeling of the a real conflict. They're too stuck in passive voice to start going active. All the descriptions of combat have either too much detail or not enough to really capture the weight of a conflict. It gets especially fucking worse when powers are introduced though. Can't say it doesn't help speed things up when the powers reach instant kill level though.

>> No.14219382

It is, without a doubt, the absolute worst when entire chapters are dedicated to shitty, half-assed fights with some weird OOC banter between enemies.

>> No.14219388

The Poppy War had this problem. A familiar rags to riches story about a sympathetic orphan attending a prestigious school, a fairly likable underdog main character, but the author just could not describe action sequences well. They were either dry and lacking impact, or else incoherent and deliberately vague. I never felt any excitement and had a hard time really visualizing what happened. Most of the time I was simply told things happened whenever a battle happened. What's the point of training your main character up to be a soldier and a commander and then not write any good battle scenes?

>> No.14219394

What makes for a good action scene in a book?

>> No.14219411

Same thing in any movie or video game: flow, appropriate levels of detail when necessary, a purpose so its not a waste of time, and a satisfying conclusion.

>> No.14219446

There's no absolute rules, everything I'm about to list has a big asterisk for exceptions, but these are general things that make action scenes in books good:
While reading your action scene, I should
>not lose track of where I am or what is going on due to lack of detail or connecting events
>have a sense of urgency while reading it
>be able to picture in my head the kind of movement being described
>get some kind of emotional payload, whether it's excitement, suspense, sadness, or catharsis
>be able to read through it quickly while still retaining all the info, nothing pulls me out of a scene like having to reread an action sequence to be sure I got everything

>> No.14219534

The two big flaming sins that stand out to me are making the scenes predictable, and making them last too long. Every fucking Codex Alera book ends with a big fight scene and they all occupy what feels like, at minimum, an eighth of the total pagecount. It's the literary equivalent of a Grateful Dead guitar solo.

>> No.14219729

>a sympathetic orphan attending a prestigious school
Why is this trope so common and why can't I stop loving it?

>> No.14219775

I've also got a pet-peeve: overly long descriptions of how a character is feeling and why. No one needs paragraphs to understand why a person might be pissed. You don't need to go in depth. People are not all socially retarded and can come to conclusions on their own. Hell, if you want to describe people's feelings so much, imply it in dialogue choice and tone.

>> No.14219857

>pol reads the author instead of their work
Like clockwork.

>> No.14220125

Thanks for convincing me not to re-read Wolfe. It's too much effort for too little gain.

>> No.14220573
File: 361 KB, 500x836, P1010601.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Sffg i need help. Why is it that I'm attracted to grandmotherly figures losing to cock (again)?
There is just something about reading about kind old grandmas having cocklust in their eyes, and impaling their snatches on sturdy young tumescent protuberances. It's affecting me in real life now, and I'm watching my supervisor and her friends with visible leers. Please for more books so I might get tired of this artificially induced fetish.

>> No.14220634

People on here hating on Brandon Sanderson. Read the book The Ways of Kings. The book is about subhuman brown eyed people being ruled by non brown eyed people.

Now I see the hate. Must suck to have eyes the colour of shit.

>> No.14220645

Bowie knife. Ditch ranged weapons.

>> No.14220748
File: 282 KB, 1760x1360, 1573325588871.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


3/5 bait because you got replies. This will be much better bait with the following changes:
Take out out Harry Potter and Perdido Street Station
Add an "Acceptable" 3/5 rating that contains a single genuine classic such as "The King of Elfland's Daughter", "Jurgen", "The Worm Ouroboros", or Lud-in-the-Mist".
American Gods can stay because that's the actual bait, but with these changes fewer anons will get spooked by the obviousness of it all.

>> No.14220846

>you can't actually like those books that I do not like

>> No.14220890
File: 44 KB, 318x468, 28790025._SX318_[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

This ended up being like the textbook case for self-pub writers needing an editor, the first book was fun and outside of the weird accidentally comic tone didn't really stand out as self-pub.
The sequel however commits almost every single sin of the genre and it's not like it happened because the book was rushed out or anything since the biggest issue with it is that the book is way too long for the actual plot covered.

>> No.14220925

The only thing good about he poppy war was the japs getting nuked.

>> No.14220926

Was out at a bar last night and saw some guy drinking on his own and reading a book and was pretty drunk so went up and asked him what it was.
Turns out it was one of the Stormlight books and I googled it after and way of kings is one of the highest rated books ever.

I don't read much but is it worth getting into?
Literally can't find any major criticism but feel like /lit/ is contrarian enough

>> No.14221007

they're 1000+ page books and it seems like the third in the series isn't well received
Sanderson's big strength/unique feature as an author is turning magic into this very defined videogamey system of powers which was at least for a while unique his big weakness is character work, especially anything to do with relationships.
Fine if you absolutely must have bogstandard epic fantasy, probably a poor time usage if you want/must have anything else. The best description of Sanderson I've seen is that he writes fantasy like it's shonen anime, that really nails both his appeal and his drawbacks.

Personally I really liked one POV in the first two Stormlight books (Kaladin who absolutely feels like the protagonist in a book that spends like 600 pages on other POVs), outside of him the others were varying degrees of a chore to read. Between the ending of the second book and the time it took the third to come out I had absolutely no interest in continuing the series and stopped after two.

Ironically for such long ass books I think the less other contemporary fantasy you've read the more you'll enjoy Sanderson as a whole.

>> No.14221217


>> No.14221258

>control f
>no LRH
It's like I'm surrounded by starwars posers

>> No.14221262

Nothing wrong with a book being long

>> No.14221279

Well I haven't read any fantasy apart from lotr and harry potter

>> No.14221280

It's just too many words

>> No.14221314

plenty wrong with telling a 250 page story in 650 pages if you aren't good at slow pacing. Modesitt is one of the only good gentle pacers I've read and even he chooses to go shorter for most of his books
Then try the first one, if you're not feeling it though I'd suggest stopping there's no radical changes in tone or quality to win you over if it doesn't get you onboard

>> No.14221350

Man I really tried with the 3rd Stormlight book but Shallan is the most infuriating PoV character to read. All that shit with multiple personalities and her dumb as fuck "lovetriangle" if you can call it that, causes my fucking blood to boil. How can someone write a main character that is so fucking unenjoyable to read. I get that the main characters in Stormlight have issues ( Kalladin is majorly depressed for example) but at least he manages to have somewhat of an arc where he gets better. Everytime I think about trying to read Oathbringer I am reminded that I am stuck in a fucking Shallan chapter and I read something else.
Thanks Sanderson you fucking hack.

>> No.14221365

His new series he actually has a publisher and an editor for, and it’s much better.

>> No.14221377

How many pages into way of kings do you think before considering dropping or picking up

>> No.14221383

Wrong. Her specialty was that shield power as a vampire.

It's like you guys didn't even read it

>> No.14221386

there's an interlude like halfway through iirc that's a good point to consider things

>> No.14221447

Lancelot getting BTFO

>> No.14221584
File: 217 KB, 1115x746, A2E30E35-30A5-4F5C-B929-DA0319CDAD61.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

> It's like you guys didn't even read it

>> No.14221659

imagine being an underaged girl and signing a photo of your feet for some dude to jack off to

>> No.14221676

Uh she’s like 30

>> No.14221779

If they’re dumb enough to post leftist trash on their twitter that’s a sure sign their work will be shit

>> No.14221791

I enjoyed the first two but the 3rd was so bad I couldn’t finish it

>> No.14221863

Does that goes for politics in general or only leftist?

>> No.14221918

You footfags are the worst. I'm not even joking, an hero now.

>> No.14221928

Degenerate scum, forcing your needs on older women. Also that book is not sffg.

>> No.14222062

It's pol, they only have one rhetoric.

>> No.14222129

Legit though I've always wondering if the lashing out at political opposites is a symptom of dread at their ever declining relevancy, I'm scrolling through McClellan's timeline and wow what the fuck happened to this guys life.

>> No.14222225

Please explain why feet are worse than literal assholes.

>> No.14222265

What do you guys think of Malice by John Gwynne? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15750692-malice

>> No.14222285

It’s fun

>> No.14222290

Is it a single pov, if it doesn't is there a clear protagonist?

>> No.14222299

I liked it, but it was nothing really revolutionary. Solid series overall.

>> No.14222355
File: 1.23 MB, 377x289, C498BD90-9AE2-4F2F-A043-D4B3F2C3788B.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Leftist politics of course. But I’d challenge you to show me any fantasy or sci fi author who posts right wing viewpoints on Twitter other than vox day or Larry Corria.

Rent free

>> No.14222368

Decent but forgettable. I can’t remember most of the characters names

>> No.14222419
File: 43 KB, 317x475, boneshaker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Why are there so few good steampunk fantasy novels?

>> No.14222429


Is he finishing the previous series?

>> No.14222554

Because steampunk was created by cosplayers for cosplayers.

>> No.14222566

It's awful lazy shit for retards to lap up

>> No.14222582
File: 687 KB, 1524x2339, highcastle.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Finished pic related.
Didn't really enjoy the ending but aside from that the musings of the main characters were a pretty enjoyable read. The reputation preceded the author here a little bit as it's first book I read by him.
Will be reading Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch soon.

Tried watching the TV series of The Man in The High Castle and found it completely unwatchable. I can't accept Nazi soldiers with perfect British accent. TV series are shitty in general, it looks.

>> No.14222834 [DELETED] 

It's not rent free when you guys are like faggot homosexuals who do obnoxious shit in the hopes of being noticed. You parade around naked with a giant dragon dildo sticking out your ass, then you are affronted when someone tells you cover it up.

>> No.14222842

Has anyone here read this book? What do you think of it? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41951626-crier-s-war

>> No.14222896


>> No.14222962

womyn need to be artsy and express themselves you biggot. You can't let them be like everyone else they need to be told they are special and act special to have any sort of selfworth, dont you know?

>> No.14223055

I'm writing a high-fantasy novel with lots of comedic and dark elements. So far I've got Discworld and Gormenghast as some of my main inspirations. What are some books I can read that involve these elements, and maybe chess themes too, i.e. alice through the looking glass

>> No.14223117

>setting has psionics
>psionosphere is an actual word they use unirionicaly
>their telekinesis users are called telekine
jesus fuck, why are you writing cyberpunk?

>> No.14223123

Stupid names are an old and venerated tradition in scifi.

>> No.14223135

Last gasps of a dying ideology.

>> No.14223144

another example of why tradition is stupid

>> No.14223165

What would you call things?

>> No.14223170

shorter books so he has to get on with it in regards of character arcs and growth

>> No.14223222

The Psionic Plane and Telekinetics.

>> No.14223247

>He doesn't grok the tradition of taking his his Asenion gynoid simp to the thopter-port on a Substance D trip for some orthocenter orgyporgy

>> No.14223281

die in fire

>> No.14223296

The US election begs to differ

>> No.14223303

you can always fuck off back to plebbit if you don’t like it

>> No.14223307

Popular vote :^)
Texas is turning blue :^^^)

>> No.14223320

>female author
>lesbian protagonists

>> No.14223356

popular vote doesn’t matter, especially with millions of illegals in this country.
Texas turning blue won’t happen but it’s a good argument to push for immigration reform.

>> No.14223544

What's wrong with female authors

>> No.14223581

Just the opposite actually.

>> No.14223622

Most are horrible at writing a story. Have you ever listened to a woman tell a story? That's how they write.

>> No.14223633 [DELETED] 

i fucking loved the us election. it caused so much butthurt all around. media slandered their own people and no one wanted to believe people had opinions and views differing from their own. this particularly was a joy to watch.


this basically encompasses the entire election and media sentiment. they could not understand why trump could possibly win and deluded themselves that everyone was the same.

>> No.14223641

>Have you ever listened to a woman tell a story? That's how they write.
Someone screencap this and put it in in the OP as a link.

>> No.14223679

Do it yourself.

>> No.14223691

I am not Threadslave though.

>> No.14223724

I know. I am. That's why I'm telling you to do it yourself if you want it done.

>> No.14223875

why the fuck is Tanith Lee never recommended here? you failed me /sffg/

>> No.14223957

It's why I don't have a gf. It's too tedious to be "gassing" girls up regularly. Telling them a bunch of lies so they can feel good.

>> No.14224003

>/lit/ is pol
>4chan is pol
>if you don't support pol you are rebbit
I can't wait till the law locks all you fags up for mass shootings. You don't even read.

>> No.14224097

I-is it bad that I'm actually enjoying Demon Accords by John Conroe? Does it make me a dumb fuck? I feel like it should, desu.

>> No.14224133

Quiver with rage more you fat tranny

>> No.14224138 [DELETED] 

Can’t wait for the repeat in 2020

>> No.14224270

The last book was basically homoerotic snuff porn.

>> No.14224384

I find it like pottery that a lot of trannies say they want a right wing bf, but those same right wing fags will kill the tranny as soon as they see the dick.
tl;dr >>>/pol/

>> No.14224610

>get back from college football game
>open thread to pick some night reading
>pol sperging out on a saturday night again

>> No.14224669

Disgusting fetish you have there. You should see a non pozzed shrink

>> No.14224675

you can always go back to /r/fantasy normalfag

>> No.14224745

>story starts with alien abductions
>goes from tactical skirmishes to straight up DBZ psionic powers and super anime mecha fights
>gets super convoluted as it carries on with their being some master race that's been behind everything with other races observing from afar
goddammit, why?

>> No.14224770

Just watch PKD's Electric Dreams. Some episodes are lackluster but when those that are good are really good

>> No.14224783

>war scene
>starts off with medieval type skirmish
>escalates to evangelion creatures fighting laser cannons

Typical Gene

>> No.14225179

Yes it does. It’s clear he has good ideas, but doesn’t know how to implement them. I like them too

>> No.14225228

What is your favorite science-fiction visual novel?

>> No.14225234

saya no uta

>> No.14225251


>> No.14225279

>being illiterate

>> No.14225300


>> No.14225331
File: 40 KB, 375x499, 51kADemjj2L._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


the metabarons

>> No.14225420

Muv luv

>> No.14225557

Reading the latest YA fad about magic schools after harry potter. Name of the wind by rothfus.
What is this cuckery? He spends the whole time chasing after some slut who's getting dicked down by other men the whole time. Why can't authors keep their fucking fetishes out of their works? Nobody wants your magical realm bullshit except your fellow enthusiasts i.e. basically no one

>> No.14225688

She implies in the second book that she hasn't slept with any of them, hence the moving away suddenly and without notice.

>> No.14225726

>reading article about Horror Fantasy short stories
>one of the recommendations is a short by Andre Norton
>never read her stuff before, but always on the lookout for more Horror Fantasy to read and I trust the recommendations from the MALE article writer
>start reading it
>it is written EXACTLY like a woman telling you a story about what happened to her that day
Mind-numbing. So very mind-numbing. So many pointless details that add absolutely nothing to the overall story. By the time the actual Horror part of the story kicked in I was so over it. Felt like I read an 800 page book by the end. She would just go on and on and on about some pointless backstory bullshit that could have been wrapped up in a single paragraph.

>> No.14225743

>the virgin slut
Come on now. As bad as anime.

>> No.14225806
File: 28 KB, 500x549, 1550046220950.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>First book is a fun if generic romp
>Second book ups the ante and makes everything bigger and better
>Third is thinly veiled "orange man bad and also this character is gay and that's okay, fuck republicans also being gay is fine see?" for 200 pages and the author realizing he forgot to actually write a plot and desperately trying to wrap it up in the last 40

>> No.14225966

Anyone else finds he can't stand women authors? Im probably missing out on some good shit, just because most women writers are horrible and I have a policy to avoid them.

Any actually good books or series written by women?

>> No.14226141

Le Guin
McMaster Bujold
Connie Willis

McMaster Bujold is arguably the best SF author alive. Le Guin is one of the best of all time. You read shit and generalize, stop robbing yourself out of reading good books because of r9k memes

>> No.14226174


>> No.14226178

Leigh Brackett

>> No.14226182


>> No.14226183

I liked Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo.

>> No.14226251

Is that why the wandering inn was such shit? I know she gets paid for by word, but that book was filled with pointless shit and backstories that added nothing.

>> No.14226266

Pol, this general is for actually written books. Not made up books that help push your agenda.

>> No.14226295

She is? You only occasionally pop in. You can't just come and go as you like. You have to live, sffg, you have to breathe it. Search the archives.

>> No.14226353

This realisation was why I asked you guys for recommendations. I've read a couple really bad books by women that read like a 16 year olds journal, and it put me off them all until now. Thanks, I'll check those out.

>> No.14226600

I'm waiting for someone here to read her new book to see what it's like
I got so much shit to finish off/read first that I doubt I'm gonna get to it this year

>> No.14226784

I really enjoyed the Red Rising series by Pierce Brown, I've read and enjoyed damn near anything by Arthur C Clarke, what else should I read in the scifi vein?

>> No.14226883

Robin Hobb

>> No.14226898
File: 372 KB, 849x1500, F8E42746-5F4E-4187-BD6F-98A49BBCBC8D.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

CS Friedman

>> No.14226907

Luna: New Moon
Pushing Ice

>> No.14226909

rent free

>> No.14227000

>misery porn is good

>> No.14227004

Living rent free in the frogs brains.

>> No.14227088

Thanks for the tip.
Just watched the "Real Life" episode. That was great.

>> No.14227125

How much science stuff can we put in a fantasy world with dragons, dungeons, elves, dwarfs, lizardmans, without having to call it "science fantasy"?

Is that a science fantasy if I put internet, giant robot and space colony in it?

>> No.14227136

just write a story and stop caring about labels

>> No.14227149


>> No.14227173

My theory is that merely mediocre books written by women seem awful because the literary sins they are most apt to make are in service to content favored by women and not you. The reverse is then true of mediocre books written by men.
Think about it.

>> No.14227257

Different strokes for different folks, basically. I get what you're saying.

>> No.14227417

YA literature tends to be ass. Add to that a female author and you have a recipe for disaster.

>> No.14227434

Is there a way to download all Nebula and all Hugo awarded books?

>> No.14227879
File: 118 KB, 907x1361, 1415940212.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

the third book of the Raveling just came out

>> No.14228010

What did you think of Despoilers of the Golden Empire? Imo it's a classic that's really good at showing how technobabble by itself is just something that hides the story if abused. Nice job by Garrett

If you want to read it online, it's available here http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24091/24091-h/24091-h.htm

>> No.14228052

what are some examples of fantasy (magical) sports novels?

>> No.14228080

Never made it through the first one, is this trilogy actually good?

>> No.14228124

Can anyone recommend me a book with an evil protagonist or some sort of overlord? Read "The black company" and "The sort of dark mage". Yes I'm very edgy thank you

>> No.14228197

Prince of thorns probably fits that request.

>> No.14228392

Fall of Reach is the best, Ghost of Onyx is also good.

Once every couple years i read them again, it's great because it only takes a couple hours, they are a guilty pleasure of mine. they are simple, fun and have the perfect militarist setting

>> No.14228466

I already read it

>> No.14228599

any good dungeon adventure books. need to clock out for a while

>> No.14228614

I recommend the KYS series by Kill Y. Self

>> No.14228627


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