Books against veganism

[Anonymous No.14152799]

I've read a couple books on veganism and watched a few documentaries and so far I'm actually considering trying out being a vegan. But I feel like the stuff I watched and read have all been one-sided and trying to convince me to make the switch by only showing the positive side.
I'd like to read something about the negative side of it as well, so I can weightthe pros and cons. Any suggestions?

[Anonymous No.14152815]

>>14152799
you end up shitting like 4 times a day

[Anonymous No.14152819]

>>14152815
How is that a bad thing? I enjoy taking a shit.

[Anonymous No.14152831]

>>14152815
but they're basically ghost shits on account of how clean you're eating

[Anonymous No.14152840]

>>14152799
The ethics side of it is retarded. The only thing that matters here is nutrition. Do you really think it’s healthy to not eat animal products? Do you want to go through the trouble of finding vegan meals and groceries? Don’t you know that many meat-eaters love long lives, too?

[Anonymous No.14153016]

>>14152831
fiber shits are just regular shit

[Anonymous No.14153044]

>>14152840
>The ethics side of it is retarded.
Why? There is a valid debate about the consciousness and emotional lives of animals that, no matter how smart you think you are, is not going to be settled on 4chan. If you believe that animals can have complex emotions and that killing them for meat is cruel, eating meat is immoral.

I eat meat, but I wouldn't eat a dog. Hypocritical? Yes. Does the tastiness of a steak outweigh the shame of a slight hypocrisy? Also yes.

[Anonymous No.14153051]

>>14153044
all important questions can and will be settled on 4chan

[Anonymous No.14153067]

>>14152840

>the only thing that matters in an ethical choice is you

t. retard.

[Anonymous No.14153070]

>>14153044
People will believe what they want to believe. Someone will call you immoral for killing a pig but no one will call a brown bear immoral for killing a human. It's impossible for humans to be in touch with nature the way it was in the past.

[Anonymous No.14153075]

>>14153044
Industrial factory farming is an abomination, definitely cruel, no two ways about it. But vegans try to convince you that eating animal products is inherently wrong, no matter how the animals are treated.

[Anonymous No.14153082]

>>14153070
Bears are simpler. You can argue that bears are not capable of comprehending any ethics, so discussing morality of a bear is baseless. On the other hand, humans objectively do not need to kill animals for food any longer (even though the diet is more complicated and might have to be supplemented or whatever) and we are demonstrably capable of comprehending ethics. I don't see your point?

[Anonymous No.14153087]

>>14152799

Look up articles on land use. Although because of monetary economic reasons meat dominates land use, much of that land is not usable for farming. That means that if you do not raise animals to graze, you can't get any use out of that land.

This is sort of a thin and an immediate gratification argument, however, since without trade of meat, much less land would be used for grazing, giving us many other benefits of leaving the land fallow such as forests, and for wildlife such as beavers who turn arid land into fertile land.

In the US, 41 % of all land use is for cattle. This has led to most of our water problems in the west, much more than agricultural use or city use, simply because land that would be dammed up by beaver, or forested would retain more of the water leading to more rain cycles in those areas, trapping more of the worlds evaporation cycle, providing more water than we currently have.

The money economy is a bad manager of human survival. Until that changes, going vegan will do little for the environment and so should be left to those who simply don't like meat.

[Anonymous No.14153091]

>>14153075
I completely agree with you. Veganism, I think, is too extreme of a position, but a vegetarian is harder to argue against.

[Anonymous No.14153096]

>>14153087
>In the US, 41 % of all land use is for cattle. This has led to most of our water problems in the west, much more than agricultural use or city use, simply because land that would be dammed up by beaver, or forested would retain more of the water leading to more rain cycles in those areas, trapping more of the worlds evaporation cycle, providing more water than we currently have.
pretty crazy

[Anonymous No.14153099]

>>14152799
Just don't try it anon. I was vegan for two years and I was always hungry. Sure, I could've just tripled my portions for every meal, but I'd rather have some meat and feel like I can get through the day.

It's a modern religion. Most vegans have no interest in anything save eating something tasty, with the added bonus of feeling like they are virtuous and moral. I currently work at a vegan bakery and I have never met such braindead, snotty, superstitious people as our clientele.

[Anonymous No.14153108]

>>14153070
Bears (and all other animals) lack rationality you absolute smoothbrain.

[Anonymous No.14153114]

>>14153087
I would add to that, that not only is the land directly used for grazing the cattle, but growing feed takes up a large chunk of actual plant growth. For example, one of the main reasons for Amazon deforestation is to make space for basedbean farms -- which is primarily used to feed cattle.

https://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/amazon/land-use/onions

[Anonymous No.14153121]

>>14153108

not having rationality does not prevent an organism from being a moral patient.

[Anonymous No.14153127]

>>14153114
I fucked up the link
https://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/amazon/land-use/onions

[Anonymous No.14153134]

>>14153127
What the fuck? Is there a word filter on S-O-Y?

[Anonymous No.14153140]

>>14153134
are you new

[Anonymous No.14153145]

>>14153140
No, but I took a break from 4chan for two years and relapsed last week.

[Anonymous No.14153157]

>>14153145
i think the filter was added a year ago or something, together with s-m-h, f-a-m and t-b-h.

[Anonymous No.14153158]

>>14153082
>>14153108
What is so difficult for you to understand? I'm saying that in a state of nature there is no morals at play in wild man killing wild bear and vice-versa. Now that it is no longer possible for humans to achieve this state people will simply choose to believe what they want. Animals lack rationality and so do plants but people arbitrarily base their ethics on suffering and empathy because their reasoning is primarily emotional.

[Anonymous No.14153163]

>>14153158
>people arbitrarily base their ethics on suffering and empathy because their reasoning is primarily emotional

hm wow it's almost as if there is some ethically salient feature about suffering

[Anonymous No.14153167]

>>14153163
Yet it's still immoral to murder even if they don't suffer. Do you even know what you're talking about?

[Anonymous No.14153168]

>>14153044
Define immoral

[Anonymous No.14153169]

>>14153163
>hm wow it's almost as if

[Anonymous No.14153172]

>>14153167
>causing someone to suffer is immoral
>therefore everything else is moral

[Anonymous No.14153177]

>>14153167

jesus fucking christ what a trainwreck of a post

[Anonymous No.14153182]

>>14153168
You sure showed me, Socrates.

[Anonymous No.14153196]

>>14153172
We are talking about the basis of ethics not something that is merely tangential.

[Anonymous No.14153216]

>>14153196

in what fucking possible ethical system is murder bad while everything else harmful permissible

[Anonymous No.14153225]

>>14153216
Where did I say that?

[Anonymous No.14153228]

>>14153087
>providing more water than we currently have.
So we need less people, especially migration. Understood.

[Anonymous No.14153231]

Vitamin Deficiency alone shows you no humans ever was vegan.

It's immoral.

[Anonymous No.14153232]

>>14153182
nothing? ok then

[Anonymous No.14153241]

>>14153231
but we dont NEED to kill animals in the present time to survive
we have the means to live without the need to slaughter animals, vitamins like b12 can be consumes through pills

[Anonymous No.14153257]

>>14153241
A buddy told me that even in India they feed kids meat and dairy until like 13 or something, it's critical for development I think.

[Anonymous No.14153284]

>>14152799
There are no negative sides. It's healthier for you (decreases risks of heart disease, diabetes, and certain cancers). It's cheaper. You poop better. It's better for the environment. Less animals suffer. Meat eaters are just lazy, self destructive, and seep into cognitive dissonance when they are faced with their retarded decisions.

[Anonymous No.14153361]

>>14152799
written by an ex vegan. the tl;dr is that veganism isnt the answer to health or environmental problems, it's just a massive cope

[Anonymous No.14153421]

>>14153284
So much about this post is wrong that I would accuse it of being bait, but I think this poster has genuinely drank to kool aid

[Anonymous No.14153448]

>>14153421
Nothing wrong with my post

[Anonymous No.14153562]

>>14153448
Fine, I'll bite
>>14153284
>It's healthier for you
All the studies vegans love to point to are bullshit. They compare someone adopting a "healthy" vegetarian diet, which likely means they are more health conscious in general, versus someone following a "standard" diet, who likely have plenty of unhealthy habits. No study has ever compared a group of healthy people following a vegan diet versus a group of people following an opposing diet, such as paleo.
>It's cheaper
Imitation meat is normally more expensive, and no vegan eats only rice and veggies, so dont try to argue that
>You poop better
Lol
>It's better for the environment
Industrialized combine farming is not any better for the environment than factory meat farms, if that's what you are trying ro argue. Both are bad.
>Less animals suffer
And here is the key. Vegans have dug their heads in the sand to try and pretend their lifestyle is better, but they conveniently ignore all the animals killed by pesticides, herbicides, fertilization, combine harvesting, not to mention the animals killed when their habitat is destroyed to plant more crops. They have exported the suffering far enough away that they can pretend it doesnt exist and you get posts like
>Meat eaters are just lazy, self destructive, and seep into cognitive dissonance when they are faced with their retarded decisions
that prove it. It's all just secular dogma based around diet choices. Well done friend, you have successfully gotten me to (You)

[Anonymous No.14153572]

>>14153108
>smoothbrain

[Anonymous No.14153581]

>>14152799
It's obviously wrong to torture and kill sentient beings that don't want to die. Bloodmouths know this deep down, which is why they hate vegans so much.

[Anonymous No.14153665]

>>14153562
Trash bugbrain post

[Anonymous No.14153676]

>>14153665
Says the guy who eats like a bug

[Anonymous No.14153746]

>>14153562
Refer to any major health organization. Veganism is a-ok. nothing wrong with the health indo stated. vegans live longer and are more heart healthy.
>paleo
retard meme diet
there are other things to eat besides imitation meat. beans, fruits, frozen veggies. tofu, tvp. onions milk are all cheap. imitation meat is junk food anyway.
vegans get more fibre
animal factory farming is one of the main contributors of climate change
animals are killed by pesticides anyway..we are just protecting the intrusion of our crops. nothing ethically wrong with that. the point is to minimize the unnecessary suffering and which is caused by meat eating.

[Anonymous No.14153758]

>>14153562#
Refer to any major health organization. Veganism is a-ok. nothing wrong with the health indo stated. vegans live longer and are more heart healthy.
>paleo
retard meme diet
there are other things to eat besides imitation meat. beans, fruits, frozen veggies. tofu, tvp. whole grains, oats, soi milk are all cheap. imitation meat is junk food anyway.
vegans get more fibre
animal factory farming is one of the main contributors of climate change
animals are killed by pesticides anyway..we are just protecting the intrusion of our crops. nothing ethically wrong with that. the point is to minimize the unnecessary suffering and which is caused by meat eating.

[Anonymous No.14153771]

>>14153562
Refer to any major health organization. Veganism is a-ok. nothing wrong with the health indo stated. vegans live longer and are more heart healthy.
>paleo
retard meme diet
there are other things to eat besides imitation meat. beans, fruits, frozen veggies. tofu, tvp. whole grains, oats, soi milk are all cheap. imitation meat is junk food anyway.
vegans get more fibre
animal factory farming is one of the main contributors of climate change
animals are killed by pesticides anyway..we are just protecting the intrusion of our crops. nothing ethically wrong with that. the point is to minimize the unnecessary suffering and which is caused by meat eating.

[Anonymous No.14153787]

>>14152799
Pescatarian + red/white meat on ceremonial
occasions only is the patrician choice. Vegans will try to claim that fish and even sea critters like oysters and lobsters have feelings (they don't).

[Anonymous No.14153793]

>>14153771
>paleo is a retarded meme diet, veganism is not
lmao stopped reading there

[Anonymous No.14153823]

>>14153787
>tfw landlocked
I'd miss muh venison though anyway.

[Anonymous No.14153825]

>>14153793
why are you trying to adopt the diet of people that died in their 30s? It's also a very disingenuous larp when you shop at the supermarket. go live in the woods so people.don't have to deal with your retardation.

[Anonymous No.14153870]

>>14153825
why are you trying to adopt the diet of people who died in their 30s? It's also a very disingenuous larp when you shop at the supermarket. go toil in a bronze age field so people.don't have to deal with your retardation.

[Anonymous No.14153904]

https://www.osho.com/read/featured-articles/body-dharma/being-a-vegetarian

[Anonymous No.14153934]

>>14153904
>if you really want to move in deep meditation your body needs to be weightless, natural, flowing. Your body needs to be unloaded; and a non-vegetarian’s body is very loaded.

Exactly. Meat is densifying.

[Anonymous No.14153949]

>>14153934
Just watch what happens when you eat meat: when you kill an animal what happens to the animal when he is killed? Of course, nobody wants to be killed. Life wants to prolong itself; the animal is not dying willingly. If somebody kills you, you will not die willingly. If a lion jumps on you and kills you, what will happen to your mind? The same happens when you kill a lion. Agony, fear, death, anguish, anxiety, anger, violence, sadness – all these things happen to the animal. All over his body violence, anguish, agony spreads. The whole body becomes full of toxins, poisons. All the body glands release poisons because the animal is dying very unwillingly. And then you eat the meat; that meat carries all the poisons that the animal has released. The whole energy is poisonous. Then those poisons are carried in your body.

That meat which you are eating belonged to an animal body. It had a specific purpose there. A specific type of consciousness existed in the animal’s body. You are on a higher plane than the animal’s consciousness, and when you eat the animal’s meat your body goes to the lowest plane, to the lower plane of the animal. Then there exists a gap between your consciousness and your body, and a tension arises and anxiety arises.

[Anonymous No.14154009]

>>14153949
I've experienced this first-hand. Plants are just lighter foods. Now watch the carnbrains try to politicize this

[Anonymous No.14154069]

>>14154009
so u agree wit osho?

[Anonymous No.14154104]

>>14154069

Of course. If you ain't a vegan for occult reasons you ain't doing it right

[Anonymous No.14154135]

>>14154104
wait what

[Anonymous No.14154167]

>>14154135
>he isn't vegan for ontological reasons

oh no no no no

[Anonymous No.14154171]

>>14152799
The nerd lobby would shut it down. Eat your daily bugs goyim.

[Anonymous No.14154194]

>>14154135
I can't quite give you a tour of the rabbit hole right now but I can point you I. The right direction. Take what Osho says up there and add it to this:

https://www.scaruffi.com/phi/syn23.html

[Anonymous No.14154195]

>>14153949
u wot

[Anonymous No.14154245]

>>14153044
>immoral
why

[Anonymous No.14154254]

>>14153284
>It's healthier for you
No it isn't.

[Anonymous No.14154274]

For those who choose to go vegan, it will be a long, painful, but well worth it road.
For those who decide not to go vegan, or if they change their mind at some point, they will find it very difficult to switch back. This is because there are still many cultural and social barriers that make veganism an easier choice for those in society. As such, veganism can be quite difficult for them to go back to being a non-vegan.

I think veganism is not a "diet" or a "lifestyle," it is simply a way of eating.
I have never been much of a meat eater. I've eaten chicken breasts for lunch, but I've never eaten a fullsize chicken breast, not since my mom cooked it. When my dad and I got a chicken for a dinner, we'd usually cut off the wings and make a lot of vegetables for an appetizer, which was pretty much vegan food in itself.

When I lived in Canada, the only thing I ate all year round was vegetables, and I would get a salad for lunch, so I ate mostly salads. I never really thought about meat being a diet but I started working in a meat plant and quickly noticed that a lot of the things I ate were not only not vegan, but actually came from animals that were being raised in the same way. I learned that the meat industry in the US is the largest employer of people with no other work. So that the jobs in this industry include meat packing, meat handling, slaughterers, truckers, etc. It also means that these are not poorly paid jobs, but highly skilled, well paid jobs. There are plenty of people who have been in these jobs for many decades who are proud of them.

[Anonymous No.14154279]

>>14154274
(2/2)
So, I became interested in the issues surrounding factory farming and factory farm animal agriculture. I also became interested in animal rights and animal welfare
I began reading extensively on the issue and became more interested in veganism and animal rights.
After several years of reading and researching on the topic, I found that the real reasons behind the demise of the country's small farmers were largely due to a combination of factors. Here's the list I found:
>1. A lack of resources.
There are many reasons that small farms are disappearing. It is generally believed that there are three major reasons for this.
>1. Farmers in rural areas do not have the resources to compete with large farm companies. It is estimated that the average annual income for a small farmer is $6,000-7,500 in the United States. To put this in perspective, $6,000-$7,500 can easily go a long way to buying a new tractor or a new combine.
>2. Farm prices have fallen drastically in recent years.
This means that farmers are finding it more and more difficult to compete with large farms. If a farmer can't get a good price for their produce, then they can't sell it.

[Anonymous No.14154356]

>>14154254
It is the healthiest diet. Heart healthy diet, vegans eat lower saturated fats and dietary cholesterol (which give you risk for heart disease) and your body reacts differently to the saturates fats in plants. Vegans eat more fiber. Vegans eat more foods with anti-oxidants. they avoid heme iron which is in meat which is toxic, meat is full of carcinogens, they dont get vitamin A toxicity as the body reacts differently to vitamin A from plant foods, various benefits of phytoestrogens in soi, reduce risk of type two diabetes, reduce risk of certain cancers, better skin, ezpz getting vitamins, etcetera etcetera.

[Anonymous No.14154452]

>>14154356
>It is the healthiest diet
Not it isn't. It can be a healthy diet. The problem with vegan nutritional science is the comparisons they make. The vast majority of vegans quit the diet. Only the vegans who are healthy stay vegan. These healthy vegans are then compared to all omnivores, regardless of how healthy their diet or lifestyle is. It's the same reason why many meme diets (carnivores, paleo, med, vegan, etc) get better health outcomes than omnivores. All of it is entirely non causal.
Do you really think meat is causing all the type 2 diabetes? Do you really think a vegan would not benefit from a bit of meat (eggs, liver, fish, grass fed, etc) a couple time a week?
>saturated fats and dietary cholesterol
There is nothing wrong with saturated fats or cholesterol.

[Anonymous No.14154472]

>>14153044
>I eat meat, but I wouldn't eat a dog. Hypocritical? Yes. Does the tastiness of a steak outweigh the shame of a slight hypocrisy? Also yes.
Yes, because humans don't live according to moral systems. They live. Who cares about hypocrisy? Humans have developed historically as omnivores. Why should that change now?

[Anonymous No.14154520]

>>14154472
Because we have the option now.

[Anonymous No.14154765]

>>14152799
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_CXwa-_5Uk
Watch this documentary

[Anonymous No.14154778]

>>14153044
the cruelty to animals shit will never get over, humans are cruel to each other all of the time, the best argument veganfags have now is the climate change shit / environmental impact of meat processing but even then you have to look at how crops are grown and it all kinda falls apart

[Anonymous No.14154799]

>>14153044
>If you believe that animals can have complex emotions and that killing them for meat is cruel
I don't. I don't believe that the subjective experience of humans and animals are commensurable. Why don't vegans seem to understand that this is a philosophically robust and valid position?

[Anonymous No.14154840]

>>14153562
It is cheaper, I’m a vegan and I rarely buy any processed foods because they are less healthy, come in more packaging and are worse for the environment. Good, tasty, healthy food is what you make up yourself from basic ingredients, which are almost always very cheap. I’d add that a vegan diet isn’t at all limiting. What’s limiting is thinking you have to find some way to make chicken or beef or fish the centre of every meal. Once I became a vegan I realised that there are literally thousands of different foods I’d never tasted - my diet became healthier and more varied. Also you don’t get vitamin deficiencies unless you’re a fool who doesn’t learn to eat properly. B12 comes from the soil; you only get it from meat indirectly, and even then it’s because cattle themselves are given supplements. You can get it from organic veg.

[Anonymous No.14154886]

>>14153562
The argument that arable farming is just as bad for the environment as meat production is totally wrong. Yes pesticides and fertilisers are absolute Armageddon for nature, and we need to implement better practices (which do exist btw). However, it’s an unavoidable fact that you need significantly more land and resources (feed, medicines, water) to produce a kilo of meat than a kilo of crop. It’s meat production that’s driving the destruction of the amazon which is one of the most valuable ecosystems on the planet. There would be no need to cut down anymore trees if everyone stopped eating meat. If the true cost of meat were included in the price you pay at the counter, you would not be able to afford it.

[Anonymous No.14154983]

>>14154886
Fish and bivalve farming is efficient and environmentally friendly, in many ways moreso than plant farming.

[Anonymous No.14155070]

>>14153787
But why would I want to eat food from the most contaminated environment on earth? Especially when the food in question is either mostly from the top of the food chain or are literally the shit filters of the ocean. Vegetarian + red/white meat on traditional occasions is the only patrician choice.

[Anonymous No.14155121]

>>14152840
>go through the trouble of finding vegan meals and groceries
I did veganuary this year and it was fucking easy dude. There's so much in the way of meat substitute that you can eat basically a regular omni diet but with no actual animal products.

[Anonymous No.14155149]

Daily reminder to all fucking communists lurking this thread that the free market is the reason we're all drowning in high quality meat substitutes.

[Anonymous No.14155267]

>>14154886
>muh land used for feed crops
Ah, this old misdirect. Tell me friend, do you know the difference between, for example, feed corn and sweet corn?

[Anonymous No.14155298]

>>14153257
Holy fuck thats one of the most retarded things ive ever heard
>buddy told me
>in india
> i think

[Anonymous No.14155301]

>>14155070
If you're eating swordfish every day you're doing it wrong. Lower trophic level sea critters are just as safe to eat as plants.

[Anonymous No.14155385]

>>14152799
>OP asks for books that counter veganism to round out his view
>the entire thread is full of vegans coping and arguing
I think that is a pretty good reason to not go vegan, OP

[Anonymous No.14155406]

>>14155385
Retards liking something is never a good enough reason to dismiss it

[Anonymous No.14155491]

>>14154799
Because it isn't.

[Anonymous No.14155517]

I eat other animals to turn their feelings of suffering into my own happiness. Way more poetic than eating a fucking carrot.

[Anonymous No.14155534]

>>14152799
Vegans depend on commercially raised bees to pollinate the plants they need. These hives travel across the country, likely spreading disease that is affecting both farmed and native bee populations. It's hilarious to see vegans talk about how environmentally conscious they are while refusing to eat honey but eating a shitload of almonds. I would read about how agriculture works.
I'm definitely not saying mass animal agriculture in its current state is right or sustainable but veganism isn't some perfect thing. I can buy meat from a hunter next door but a vegan must ship foods from across the country and the globe out of season to be somewhat healthy.

[Anonymous No.14155646]

>>14155534
Vegans are hardly the only consumers that consume crop dependent on bees, and unless you count California hipster vegans trying to survive on avocado and cashew most vegan staple food like beans and peas do decent without bees. Anyway, the American domestic bee population will crash and burn in the coming years (the wild bees are since long decimated) and it will be absolutely glorious. Imagine the outrage when the price on apples, strawberries and cucumber suddenly go critical.

[Anonymous No.14155811]

>>14152799
So, in essence, you've been brainwashed?

[Anonymous No.14156244]

>>14154452
>the vast majority of vegans quit their diet
sauce in this? and sure a lot of dumb fucks probably don't keep up with it because they don't know what the fuck they are doing. It is a whole new diet and they dont research what to eat.
carnivore and paleo diets are self destructive. the fact that you are placing those next to veganism shows you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. veganism is approved by all major health organizations and credible nutritionists.
>nothing wrong with saturated fats and dietary cholesterol
misinformation. I can dismiss everything and ignore everything you say because of this statement because it is brainded and shows you take your information from meme blogs and studies funded by the meat and dairy industry. It is a proven fact that they are bad for you and that they raise your risk for heart disease. end of story.

[Anonymous No.14156282]

>>14156244
says a lot that the most pointed critiques itt have been "uhh it's a pain in the ass to shop for vegan foods" and "uhhh most people quit"

[Anonymous No.14156498]

>>14153949
whaddup with the oshoposting?
I saw Wild Wild Country. I know you're full of shit.