/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14099736]

I don't get the big deal about Jesus. Some of the stuff he said is right, I guess, but kind of bland compared to the rest of the history of philosophy. And in terms of poetry there are better written passages in the Bible than his speeches.

[Anonymous No.14099847]

the entire bible is written by him or inspired by him

[Anonymous No.14099941]

>>14099736
I think his life is the big symbolic revolution between ancient and modern thought, socially and religious. Ever wonder why you don't go to the gathering place with your fellow religious folk and sacrifice animals? Because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Then he rose from the dead to herald everlasting life in God. Can Kant or Coleridge do that? When's the last time David Foster Wallace raised the dead? Or Plato healed a leper?

Ironically, the relaxation of ritual and the disintegration of social/religious/economic/political life which Jesus effected (no matter how hard the Catholic Church struggled to maintain it) leads the very average person today to not comprehend the spiritual in every day life because it isn't forced on them through every social institution--yet the necessity of the political and economic institution which Jesus attempted to undermine has maintained its necessity and even come to dominate, divorced from spirituality (rather than as Christ would've hoped, the spiritual coming to dominate when liberated from aforementioned institutions.)

[Anonymous No.14099952]

>>14099941
>Ever wonder why you don't go to the gathering place with your fellow religious folk and sacrifice animals
now we just eat the animals.
WOW. thanks jesus

[Anonymous No.14099961]

>>14099952
They did back then, as well--the story of Prometheus explains why humans eat the meat of sacrificial animals, for example. In any case, industrial farming is probably antithetical to the scope of industry that would be able to be established under the ideal Christian community.

[Anonymous No.14099999]

>>14099961
who gives a rat's ass about what type of ethical scope christian community has?

[Anonymous No.14100084]

>>14099847
This is clever bait, surprised no one's biting. Of course it's not close to true, unless you're one of those ultra-conservative Christians who believes in plenary verbal inspiration. Now, you know this, but frame this false flag so simply and artfully to discredit the Christian presence on /lit/ that I really must applaud you.
>>14099736
You're missing the one great Christian idea: the Incarnation. Jesus' words are valuable, but it's his person that changes the game. Christ is the God-Man, fully God and fully man. Not a half-and-half demigod, not a human avatar of a god, not a Buddha who finds enlightenment, but the one true God from all eternity to all eternity--now in the person of a carpenter from Galilee. This is the great Christian mystery. If you think it unimportant in the schemes of philosophy, you are yet unwise. Philosophy was revolutionized by this idea of the union of God and man. You find it in the Christian theologians, naturally, but it was important for the others as well; Hegel, for instance, sees in the Incarnation the realization of the world-historical Idea among men. If you're blind to the Incarnation you've missed the point of Christianity in general, missed the point of the last two thousand years altogether. Quite a mistake to make.

[Anonymous No.14100101]

>>14099736
Jesus was an ubermensch

[Anonymous No.14100158]

I agree OP, but for different reasons, I love Jesus , I think he was a great man and one of the most admirable figures in history. However something nags me about him and that is something that while it doesn't concern the institution of the church, which does as its supposed to, believes and doesn't asks questions for salvation of others, it does concern him.

In essence Jesus as moralizer, is not a great figure in thinking because all that he asks and all that he says, is what SHOULD BE, and COULD BE, and not what IS. In this he went beyond the old Judaic law and old Testament, which describes the ways of men. But Jesus by way of heavenly access as the Son of God, in the story, claims to know what is the ideal state of man. Charity, love , forgiveness etc. All admirable yet in the world of man these are just one side of the human experience, they are the incredible exception and not the rule. Thus, Jesus ultimately talked abstractly about what could be God's plan for the world, and concretely about the ways of man and how they relate to to the divine. In the gospel of Mathew, Jesus says that even if you look at someones wife with naughty thoughts you should pluck out the eye that offends thee. Jesus believed ultimately in an ideal Platonic world that could exist here on earth, but that cannot be. I am not saying he was naive, but he was clearly a dreamer who misunderstood man. Kierkegaard says Jesus's death could not have been a tragedy because he was wholly dedicated like that , and a figure of the "Idiot" like in Dostoevsky. He is admirable but ultimately cannot be imitated or followed as a literal example. This is why he is confined to religion.

[Anonymous No.14100182]

>>14099736
Jesus was the first rational philosopher. He was exposed to a number of hat tricks (false bottom jars = "turning water to wine") which he then parlayed into teaching people to abandon all their old superstitions ("I am the fulfillment of the law"). At the time that he lived, the average intellectual person was what we would regard as schizophrenic today. They would consult statues and literally "hear" voices telling them what to do, or, failing that, go to places like Delphi and get high to induce the auditory hallucinations.

The reason for this schizophrenia was because they had a poorly developed sense of self. Today you think of your "inner voice" (well, excepting the 1/3 or so of people who don't have one) as your own. It's a bit awkward though, as anyone who has tried to meditate will tell you. You attempt to your silence your mind, and yet thoughts still come. In an era of 24/7 distraction, many are not so familiar with this facet of existing, but it is there. Ancients interpreted this as the gods speaking to them, literally.

In an effort to relieve this problem in particular, Jesus taught people to identify themselves with logos ("logic"), in a rational sense. For the jews, in the beginning was the word; this was those inner, persistent thoughts they considered as a god speaking to them. For the Christians, the word, Logos, took on a new meaning: reason.

If you examine the teachings of Jesus in this light, you will find this project shinning through everywhere. For instance, consider the command to "turn the other cheek." This is actually "if you are slapped on the right cheek, turn the other." Why right?

If I was going to slap someone in Roman times, I would only use my right hand. The left hand was for unclean things, the right for shaking hands, eating, etc. So to slap someone on the right cheek (with the right hand) is a backhanded slap or a sign of disrespect. If you are slapped on the right cheek, but turn the left, the person who slapped you then is presented with the option of an open handed slap (which was a sign of regarding someone as an equal) or to back down (and humiliate themselves). So there is a bit of a "troll" aspect to the turn the other cheek that is lost on most people today. The false bottom jars and turning water to wine was the same thing.

This was a dude teaching people to be clever and work the system, for the first time ever, because he cared. And that is why he is remembered so fondly by billions to this day, even if a lot of people don't come close to fully grasping it through the shroud of history.

[Anonymous No.14100187]

>>14099999
Hey, everybody, it's the OP from the dead cow in the supermarket post. Welcome back, little guy. You're sooooo cute.

[Anonymous No.14100219]

>>14100182
>Literally believing Julian Jaynes over 2000 years of Christian philosophy. Or at all.

[Anonymous No.14100288]

>>14099999
Absolutely fucking checked.

[Anonymous No.14100305]

>>14099736
The sermon on the mount is amazing, though.

[Anonymous No.14100307]

>>14099736
I don't get the big deal about christianity in general. It is annoying to be around them all day but then I think if they were all atheist maybe it would be annoying too. Wish I could have a job where I am alone all day.

[Anonymous No.14100316]

>>14100182

[Anonymous No.14100349]

>>14100158
I understand what you mean, but I think he cannot be followed as a literal example because he is divine - we should strive towards this ideal, acknowledging our sinful ways, and asking forgiveness for them

[Anonymous No.14100356]

>>14100288
t. Samefag

[Anonymous No.14100408]

>>14100349

I mean the problem isn't really that, because then the church can counter this by saying look at the saints or saying what you said. But my main problem is this, the unreality principle and correspondence of truth. Jesus predicates man as a being who a moral arbiter for good. Yet each and everyone of us with even a basic insight to our psychology, knows that if we are pushed too far, go hungry or threatened we will turn into ravenous beasts. But Jesus says this is not the norm. The heat of darkness in man does not concern him, because he conceives man as able to reach perfect love as does God. This is the whole basis for christian faith. The Jewish faith which is half-conscious of this platonic ideal, says you can channel the divine in also vengeance and the law (law of Moses), but it doesn't claim that this perfection can be incarnated except in Messianic times. But the basis of faith in Christianity is that it is incarnated, hence why Jesus as incarnated God can be taken metaphorically, he achieves the impossible and resurrects, because that is something that cannot be (perfect platonic love within the world of man and absolvement of all sins for man), yet it is the basis for faith in the christian God.

[Anonymous No.14100413]

>>14100356
t. faggot
I'm sorry no one checked your digits, oh wait, you didn't get any LOL

[Anonymous No.14100426]

>>14099736

The life, death and resurrection of the Lord were foretold by every prophet of Israel along the centuries. Christ was not firstly a teacher of this world's wisdom, who came to deliver the philosophy with which man would be freed of ignorance.

Jesus was rather, first and foremost, the Son of God, and a teacher of love not only in word but in deed, not only the love of men but that of God.

In these times man has lost the memory of God's covenant, as each of us has turned from the Father, we cry out seeing how far we are from Him, how lonely and worthless we have made ourselves. Man today, as Zion in the book of Isaiah, cries saying:

“The Lord has forsaken me;
my Lord has forgotten me.”

But God, in love, replies:

¨Can a mother forget her infant,
be without tenderness for the child of her womb?
Even should she forget,
I will never forget you.
See, upon the palms of my hands I have engraved you;¨

Jesus of Nazareth, true man and true God, engraved by his cross our names upon his palms. He, being the Son, and full of every perfection and blamelessness, gave all in trust and service to the Father so that man might not perish. And as the Father gave Him the victory over death and sin, so shall all who follow Him be led to salvation.

You ask 'Why do you believe in Jesus, why do you follow him?', and you ask well.

I answer you with the words of the apostle Saint Paul:
¨God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ¨.

God's love be with you.

http://www.about-jesus.org/complete-chart-prophecies-jesus.htm

[Anonymous No.14100461]

>>14100426
You're laying it on too thick, baby. This kind of post is barely readable.

[Anonymous No.14101398]

>>14100158
>>14100408
You can't have this discussion without talking about the Fall; that you don't address it is a major flaw in your train of thought. Creation--God makes the world and pronounces it "good." Fall--death and sin enter the world. This is the stage into which Jesus enters. Your complaint seems to be--Jesus in unrealistic, men are inherently sinful, you can't erase all sin. But that's just it, in Hebrew lore man was not sinful in the beginning, he became sinful by transgression. But this is not an essential condition--it can be remedied by the death of the fallen man and the spiritual rebirth of the new man (the death of the old man occurring by proxy in the person of Christ on the cross). In short:
>Yet each and everyone of us with even a basic insight to our psychology, knows that if we are pushed too far, go hungry or threatened we will turn into ravenous beasts. But Jesus says this is not the norm. The heat of darkness in man does not concern him, because he conceives man as able to reach perfect love as does God. This is the whole basis for christian faith.
This is wrong. Christ knows full well that fallen man is little better than the beast. Jesus never denies this; in fact, he often refers to his enemies by bestial names, the Pharisees as vipers and Herod as a fox. Christ only claims that this is not a necessity.
Your other problem seems to be that man will do bad, so ethicists are unrealistic in pronouncing ethical principles. This hardly seems worth an argument; that men will disregard ethical precepts has no bearing on the value of the precepts themselves.

[Anonymous No.14101750]

>>14099736

My thoughts...

Jesus went to the root of humanity's problems.

Hume identified that at the root of any ethical framework is sentiment. In the field of psychotherapy, any modality has presuppositions or foundations - again rooted in sentiment.

Jesus embodied and commanded Agape. Not 'self-actualization', hedonism, or 'follow your bliss'... Agape.

Jesus embodied Agape, and told humanity to strive for Agape in thought, word, and deed.

It's profound IMO that Jesus never taught a political system, nor comprehensive ethical framework, nor systematic code of customs (unlike other religious figures, that people build religions upon). The focus is entirely put on transformation of self, through relationship and praxis.

Being a good parent, partner, friend, relative, would alone create a social revolution. As contemporary research is showing, a lot of our early experiences as our brains are developing, have a profound (often lifetime) affect upon us. Eg. the A.C.E. (Adverse Childhood Experience) studies. The studies that show that how important benevolent and nurturing parenting is for future psychological and physical health. etc.

Earnestly striving for win/win situations, in regards to economic and governance - due to agape being the foundation for your values and decisions - would arguable lead to better social organization.

Jesus, and Early Christians were about Praxis. Exposition came later. Jesus called people to transformation, not intellectual sophistication.

The gospels were a call to the transcendent. Arguably a person can only be increase their awareness of the transcendent through praxis. The Christian philosophers and theologians, arguably just help remove intellectual objections to Christianity, by attempting to provide a coherent reconciliation between experience and Christian theism.

Christianity is arguably about Praxis and Relationship, not about semantic theological arguments and institutions.

Non Fiction...

Sinner's In The Hands Of A Loving God By Brian Zahnd
Lies We Believe About God by Wm Paul Young
A More Christlike God By Bradley Jersak
The Unbearable Wholeness Of Being By ilia Delio
The Signature Series By C.S. Lewis.

[Anonymous No.14101820]

>>14101750
>It's profound IMO that Jesus never taught a political system, nor comprehensive ethical framework, nor systematic code of customs (unlike other religious figures, that people build religions upon). The focus is entirely put on transformation of self, through relationship and praxis.
Because he endorsed the preexisting Mosaic law. He didn't need to say any more on the matter, but he certainly made his position on the matter clear.
>Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in now wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)
The main thrust of your post is alright, but Jesus definitely endorsed a "comprehensive ethical framework" and "systematic code of customs."