/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14098877]

This is not a political bait thread, I'm genuinely curious if a single respected academic has written anything on transgenderism and it's epistemological impossibility. How can a person know they internally 'feel' or 'identify' as a person of the other gender if that would necessitate being the other gender to begin with to have a point of comparison. Alternatively you could argue that there is no gender experience but this presents its own logical error, if we can draw a non-arbitrary distinction between any two sets within a larger set we can imagine that there may possibly be a non-trivial disparity between the properties of those sets, since we can identify that across the entire spectrum of humans there exists a categorical bisecting the set then the difference exists. You cannot argue the distinction does not exist, only that it is trivial, but your assertion of its insignificance is just that: an assertion. It could be that all brown haired people have a fundamentally unique perception of reality contingent on their having brown hair, this of course can be ignored since no one attaches any significance to the identity of being brown haired. But transgenderism asserts TWO things: gender categoricals and the ability to transcend those and self-actualise. These strike me as an epistemological impossibility but yet when I search for any academic work on the subject all I encounter is various expositions on the value of the transgender insight. This may very well be true, but it is impossible for a transgender person to subsume all the traits of the opposite gender without delegitimising the possibility the other gender. Any thoughts? Am I crazy here?

[Anonymous No.14098902]

That's more of an ontological than an epistemological question.
If we assume gender is supposed to be equivalent to biological sex, then there are no transgender people. If gender is something that is whatever a person happens to feel like they are or belong to, there could be a ridiculously high number of genders, and every single person could be transgender, but might never belong to the same gender as anybody else.

[Anonymous No.14098905]

>>14098877
i identify as napoleon

[Anonymous No.14098938]

>>14098902
I would argue it is epistemological, because we can accept gender as a purely experential 'qualia', the problem is that since we know biology is fundamentally linked to psychology, e.g. if I ingest some LSD molecules they will influence my qualia, we can argue that gender is a product entirely of cognition, we cannot disprove that having a uterus fundamentally alters your perception of reality, if even a little bit. Let us imagine we were to graph every physiological variation across every single human, every experience they had altering their view of reality ever so slightly. All humans are physiologically similar to x% and physiologically different to y%, if we refer to the 'female experience' we are specifically referring to THOSE experiences, real or not real, trivial, or not trivial, that are collectively shared by those with XX chromosomes. Now there may be absolutely NOTHING about have female DNA that alters your subjective experience of reality, or there could be. It is an epistemological impossibility, the problem isn't those transgender people who want to identify as transgender or as a third gender, the problem is with those who want to identify as the opposite gender. In order to internalise the belief that a MTF is equivalent to a biological female, I must accept that no component of the female biology could lead to a fundamentally ineffable difference in experiencing reality. Even if MTFs were 99% identical in every way to a female, you would still have a, theoretical category, that exists for biological females. Because categories are essentially derived from perception. Imagine you have a bunch of oak desks, and oak chairs, and maple desks and maple chairs, we could say that the distinction that is more important is chairs vs desks, but the distinction between oak chairs and maple chairs would continue to exist even if we did not acknowledge. Our ability to conceptualise a difference means the difference exists.

[Anonymous No.14098944]

>>14098877
We are highly different as sexes. However, there is a connection between a mother and her children that is deeply integrated and biological. Likewise, plastics are having the side effect of feminizing many animals, likely humans as well - or mainly. Our water filters don't quite clean up medicine and hormone remnants, meaning that cities will automatically feminize the population (and likely cause a lot of unknown errors due to the conflicting medicine).

If transgenders have the nervous system of the opposite sex, they would feel like their body is wrong, likely.

[Anonymous No.14098963]

no matter how you try to come at the issue the logical endpoint is always: "trans" are mentally unsound.
i'd be surprised if any respected academic would want to publicly share that view given the brand of attention it would attract.

[Anonymous No.14098982]

>>14098944
Yes but you're missing my point, in order to assert that a MTF is a female it requires asserting that there is no remaining aspect of the female experience that could be influenced by having been born female. This is an epistemological impossibility as I've already explained. It's like saying that two mugs are the same even if they're made of different materials, even if I can't tell them apart, even if their function is exactly the same, even if they're the same colour and weight etc. I cannot actually say that they are the same, and even if you resort to the 'its experience not biology' then again I cannot be certain that their experience is the same either because the 'material' COULD contribute to the 'form' (using the mug analogy) in ways I don't know.

[Anonymous No.14098993]

>>14098877
It hasn't been questioned because gender is ultimately a culturally mediated phenomenon. Trannies "feel" like women in the same you feel a preference towards a particular political ideology, or whatever. It doesn't actually matter how they really feel, what matters is that the existence of this feeling is mutually agreed upon between members of society. The real question to ask then is, who/what is mediating this phenomenon and why?

[Anonymous No.14098994]

>>14098905
there can be only one

[Anonymous No.14099011]

>>14098993
But how can you 'feel' like something you've never felt like? They 'feel' like their own image of how a woman feels. It'd be like me saying I know what it 'feels' like to be a tree.

[Anonymous No.14099041]

>>14098993
the better question is why is the feeling itself is not enough to qualify for the label... and not as imposed by other but as imposed by trannies on themselves....
you will never meet a Sex=M claiming they are Gender=F without any drugs and surgeries. they will self identify as Gender?/Sex?=M->F up until the point they have done enough self-harm to satisfy their self-imposed qualifiers.

Transexualism is a holding pattern gender for sexually confused suicidal conservatives.

[Anonymous No.14099086]

>>14099041
Labels exist to reference categoricals, I am not interested in the ethical, sociological, or biological but rather the epistemological issues transgenderism. Namely being that even if we accept MTF transgenders as females, the “category” or biological females still exist. Therefore a conceptual label can exist, let us say “BFs” for biowomen. Then let us say a bunch of biowomen start arguing that their biological differences are the basis of cultural distinctions, and likewise that their biological differences lead to discrimination (women forced to bear children in third world countries) now the degree to which this discrimination is severe is irrelevant, the point is it exists. Then let us argue these bio females start pushing for biofemales rights and biofemalism becomes a movement. Do you see the problem? What will end up happening is the word “woman” or “female” will end up just being a word for MTFs females. You cannot eliminate the presence of the categorical without actively oppressing it’s constituent members rights to self identify. This is an intractable problem that will exist even if there is the smallest possible distinction between biowomen and MTFs

[Anonymous No.14099107]

>>14098993
>The real question to ask then is, who/what is mediating this phenomenon and why?
I ask something similar when someone uses the term "social construction". To say something is socially constructed entails a constructor of some sort (either individual or at a group level). Rarely do these types have a good response to this that doesn't go beyond reddit boilerplate. Consider someone saying:
>"x is socially constructed".
Response:
>"ok, so there is some y doing the social construction of x, what is that social entity?"
Usually the response is something banal ("society!" "culture!") and shows they have not really thought about it. A phenomenological reduction beyond the material would give you some sort of agent-like entity as the social entity doing the construction (as that is the nature of a social construction). Consider "gender is socially constructed". Who is doing the constructing here? We are led to believe its society or culture, but really its academics and the media who were the original ones that did the construction (consider the justification that many of them use for this claim: peer reviewed research. Again, it's not society or culture doing the construction here). It's not really a question they want to dig into, because of obvious reasons (it's really not globally socially constructed at all, it's a localized subset of society doing the construction. One that coincidentally happens to agree with their sociopolitical priors).

[Anonymous No.14099127]

>>14098877
Transgenderism as its supporters define it is indeed nonsense, the idea that a woman can be born in a man's body is not only dubious in terms of evolution, but it raises the epistemological problem you talk about. However from an idealist perspective, the theory that we ultimately construct our own realities from both external and internal influences and that no two people have the same perception of reality, we can say that transgenderism is entirely a product of the zeitgeist. Tolstoi wrote "From the child of five to myself is but a step. But from the newborn baby to the child of five is an appalling distance." The world we experience in the formative years of existence has a massive impact on the people we grow up to be. All the pushing for acceptance of LGBT is only creating more LGBT constructs, and I refer to them as constructs because they are entirely artificial. Transgenderism is not organic, it's only found in modern Western culture, as is exclusive homosexuality. The more LGBT is pushed, the higher the tower is built, until eventually it topples over.

[Anonymous No.14099145]

Why do trannies insist there are more than binary boundaries of sex/gender when they still define themselves as between this two extremes of male and female? If you’re genderfluid, you define yourself as fluctuating between male and female, or in between. But you still place yourself under a male/female category. What’s the point?

[Anonymous No.14099190]

>>14099107
>but really its academics and the media who were the original ones
This is what I was implying in my comment. Things are socially constructed in the sense that their existence is mutually agreed upon by society, but there's always someone/something -- an intentional agent -- directing the discourse.

[Anonymous No.14099202]

>>14099011
Because someone told them that they're feeling that way. It's really as simple as that. It doesn't matter how they're actually feeling.

[Anonymous No.14099226]

>>14099041
But that's complete bullshit. Many trans people don't do surgeries (though most use hormones), but considering their internal gender to be female long before they started any adaptive strategies is very common. You can find tons of little penis-owning kids claiming to be female who haven't done any surgery or drugs yet. We can argue that they are deluded, and their "feeling female" is an uneducated attempt at something they can never know or be, but that's a separate issue.

[Anonymous No.14099261]

>>14099107
Again, this is absurd. The social constructions of gender (and remember that the term was specifically coined from grammar to address the performative/social aspects of gender roles as distinct from biology) have been created (and continue to shift) by the usual messy endless debate between all aspects of society from tradition and religion to advertising and media. As an "academic," the idea that academia is somehow driving or shaping the usual understandings of what colours little girls and boys wear, what toys they play with, how they act at parties, etc., is hilarious bullshit. The justifications, studies, and debates are much more recent: the phenomena is ancient in various forms. So save the cultural Marxist bullshit: universities don't have that kind of power or unified agenda, and their ability to shape public discourse is very limited.

[Anonymous No.14099350]

>>14099261

It's only absurd because you've encountered a violent break of thinking outside your safe little bubble where you've never thought for yourself. As I've said above, every time I encounter one of you social constructionists you've never been able to answer my challenge based on your own standards. The "endless debate" you refer to has its justification from academia (and the media which pushes it), which is a social entity that constructs the claims "gender is socially constructed". The thicket of processes you describe is again being constructed by academics: sociologists, historians, and others. Not anyone else. If you don't think this is true, then feel free to justify the claim "the phenomena is ancient in various forms" without question-begging bullshit that pre-supposes a social entity that constructs things as your justification, e.g. peer reviewed papers, articles, books, archaeologists, historians, etc. You can't do it. That's my point. The justifications go back to a set of localized social constructors, not something global.

[Anonymous No.14099423]

>>14099261
>by the usual messy endless
Lazy. Examine this so-called "mess" for one iota of time and you'll instead find order. Just imagine being so naive as to believe that culture isn't at all dictated by powerful institutions and persons, but instead arises spontaneously, from the bottom-up, hermetically sealed from the influence of any exogenous powers; just absurd.

[Anonymous No.14099447]

>>14098877
I'm pretty sure what they mean when they see they feel like the opposite sex is that they have a strong desire to inhabit a female body.

[Anonymous No.14099501]

why are trannies so fond of g/acc ?

[Anonymous No.14099644]

>>14099447
I think you're missing / leaving out a step. They have a strong desire to inhabit a female body *because* they feel (or they think they feel) like a female; A ("feeling" like the opposite sex) leads to B (having a strong desire to inhabit a female body), but A is not B.

[Anonymous No.14099654]

>that guy that just got into postmodernism and thinks that reality can be whatever what he wants and somehow things being a construct through complex processes consisting of everything humanity knows and doesn't that have taken fucking eons to become what they are makes them less important and easily changeable
i fucking hate trannies for giving postmodernism a bad name.

[Anonymous No.14099669]

You're completely correct, anon, which is why it's more of a paraphilia/fetish/OCD-induced disorder than anything.

[Anonymous No.14099676]

>>14098982
>Yes but you're missing my point, in order to assert that a MTF is a female it requires asserting that there is no remaining aspect of the female experience that could be influenced by having been born female.
You are your parents and your ancestors, not cut apart from them. That includes men and women.

[Anonymous No.14099742]

>>14098938
>Because categories are essentially derived from perception
Those are intuitions, not categories, according to first Critique Kant.

[Anonymous No.14099752]

>>14098877
>Hey /lit/, are there any books on...
>Sure! Let me write one for you. Right now.
Bodies That Matter: On the Discursive Limits of Sex (normally I wouldn't wrote the whole title) is probably the best I can suggest to you.

Frombmost of what I've seen, academia leans more into performativity theory. In a nutshell, discrimination can be predicated upon the target's femininity even if said target has a penis; a sexist hetero male doesn't hate pussy, he hates "women," he may call his son a pussy even if he knows him to have a penis, etc. From this it's concluded that presented-gender has moral grounds to be treated as distinct from sex/genitals. Generally this puts academics above career terfs, but also implies they expect some kind if passing to treat you as trans as there's little in the way of being "trans on the inside." This is obviously backlash waiting to happen but noone's going to fire a shot when they know it would be met with "Oh, so you want a more internal, biologically grounded form of transexuality? Okay them, what's it predicated on?"

[Anonymous No.14099764]

>>14099752
>wrote
write

phoneposting

[Anonymous No.14099774]

>>14099742
Perhaps perception is the wrong term. A distinction that can be observed/described must exist. The fact that I can distinguish between a biological woman and a MTF means there is a difference. The next step becomes arguing that gender is independent of sex but this is purely an assertion. The fact that biowomen can produce children ALREADY means that there are roles that are socially constructed for them predicated upon this, which means consequently that there is a particular shared culture of discrimination that can ONLY be experienced by childbearing humans, that is their commodification. Trans people experience their own types of discrimination, but in order to enforce trans-'acceptance' you must essentially ban women from forming an identity around their biology. Once again even if female is redefined to be purely a gender identity, how do you prevent biowomen from creating their own identity and culture around their reproductive parts?

[Anonymous No.14099803]

>>14099752
I believe the root of all discrimination stems from reproductive asymmetry. The fact that a woman can only mother one child at a time whereas men can father many children simultaneously means women are the key to sustaining both populations and legacy, this led to sacrament of virginity, etc. The commodification of women, and subsequent association of feminine traits, ALL traces back to the value of the womb. You can redefine gender to be, Inseminators, Males, Females, Womb-havers. But it will become rapidly apparent that Male/Female will become a synonym for 'trans' and Inseminator and Womb-haver will supplant M/F. This is the root of the problem, transgender people don't care about the label, it's what the label REFERS to. If female starting meaning 'feminine' but a new word came to be the standard for 99% of the XX population that happened to share feminine traits, many trans people I feel would still be upset. Because the issue is that any XX-based identity delegitimises MTF and vice versa. They are incompatible.

[Anonymous No.14099857]

How could anyone, "cis" or other, know what it feels like to be the gender they claim to be for that matter? If gender is "socially constructed", as is often said, would not all we could say on the matter be that we *think* our understanding of our gender matches that of society's?

[Anonymous No.14099884]

>>14099857
>know what it feels like to be the gender they claim to be for that matter?
Many of them may claim there's no such thing, and reduce their identity to sex. You could say "well how do you know you DON'T have a gender?" but anyone remotely empirical isn't going to care for that. The better response would be to look at at oddly sexed animals, people with perhaps missing genitals, odd chromosomes, etc.

[Anonymous No.14099928]

>>14099884
You could, alternatively, say that there may be such a thing as gender, but if there are any feelings associated with whatever gender you are, you don't know the what the association is

[Anonymous No.14099948]

>>14099145
The point is to get lots of upvotes and hearts on twitter and tumblr. The point is for ordinary people to have some identity that makes that special and quirky and oppressed, because oppression is the most valuable social currency that exists today.

[Anonymous No.14099971]

>>14098905
Je suis Napoleon!

[Anonymous No.14099996]

>>14098905
how's it going Raskolnikov?

[Anonymous No.14100002]

>>14099928
Yeah you could say it's there and that just its value can't be identified, but you would want there to be a reason to not just Occam's razor it off.

[Anonymous No.14100015]

>>14098877
>How can a person know they internally 'feel' or 'identify' as a person of the other gender if that would necessitate being the other gender to begin with to have a point of comparison.
That's why people say that gender is a social construct. It's been made into a meme thru radical feminists and their detractors, but society assigns certain values and properties to genders, which combined with body dysmorphia creates transgenderism. There has also been papers showing the neurological differences between transgender and cisgender brains, suggesting that if there is something like a "gender perception", this is likely the cause.

[Anonymous No.14100030]

>>14098877
> How can a person know they internally 'feel' or 'identify' as a person of the other gender if that would necessitate being the other gender to begin with to have a point of comparison

Not a big fan of transgenderism but don't they say that if you identify with a gender, it means that you already "are" it ? I mean if I have a dick, my sex is masculine but if I have dysphoria or identify as female (with relation to gender), my gender is already and has always been female ?

Also from what I understood Butler et al really talk about subversion, as the act of subverting gender norms is the real deal (in opposition to say, an essentialist conception of what "I truly was" from the beggining)

[Anonymous No.14100040]

>>14098877
How about you go whine about that irrelevant shite somewhere else while I augment my body with a monster cock and illegal prosthetics, transgressing humanity and sex?
Retarded meatsack caring about what others do to their meat

[Anonymous No.14100049]

>>14100040
OP is specifically concerned with the non-meat here. He hasn't even gatekept surgery, or at least not in the OP.

[Anonymous No.14100074]

>>14100040
Their body only seems at most indirectly a concern; what they're chiefly concerned with, I would say, is how trans people can know they "feel" like the gender they claim to feel like

[Anonymous No.14100104]

>>14100049
Dysphoria is bodily. It's a mismatch between the body you have and the body your brain thinks you must have. Not you - your brain, no one would consciously choose to develop a barely treatable condition that makes your life infinitely worse. Retarded kids don't count, they'd fake any mental illnesses for attention given it's popular enough.
It may be similar to body integrity identity disorder (people feeling like their limbs don't belong to them, etc). It's not like some guy chooses to have a leg dysphoria cuz he thinks being one-legged is cool, but his brain fucking him over.

[Anonymous No.14100147]

>>14098877
It should be classed under delusional disorders, because it is just a delusion.

[Anonymous No.14100177]

>>14100147
How do you treat it though? Any tranny, unless it's a fetishist larper or a retarded tumblr kid, would choose to get rid of dysphoria completely, instead of submitting to it and trying to reshape oneself to feel somewhat better.
If you invent an anti-dysphoria feel, or at least figure where exactly it comes from, you'd be a medical legend.

[Anonymous No.14100202]

>>14100177
anti-dysphoria pill*
Conversion therapy and plain repression have been tried, with no results in curing dysphoria. These days unfortunately people can mistake other feelings for being a tranny (disliking your appearance, fetishes, normal puberty issues, not agreeing with gender roles, etc) and even worse, doctors and media encourage them to make a horrible mistake of transitioning.

[Anonymous No.14100207]

>>14100202
How much actual research has there been into giving trannies testosterone or whatever?

[Anonymous No.14100263]

>>14100207
It's doubtless that ones with actual dysphoria get better when they transition,
le suicide rates are mostly due to unsuccessful transitions or mistreatment from others. Of course it is extremelly hard to get rid of dysphoria entirely this way, but we don't have any other method that works well enough
Info is limited becauseonly very recently has it escalated on such a large scale

[Anonymous No.14100282]

>>14100263
>le suicide rates are mostly due to unsuccessful transitions or mistreatment from others
1. define unsuccessful
2. source?

[Anonymous No.14100329]

>>14100282
1. not livig up to one's expectations. especially common with male to female as they think they'd turn out hot
2. all those news about tranny suicides, google some
because the treatent is extremely dependent on one's luck and genetics, it's not hard to see why so many dont make it

[Anonymous No.14100372]

>>14100329
the problem is that there could be 100 news articles about tranny suicides due to unsuccessful transitions or mistreatment from others, but that doesn't tell us that most of them are due to those things. where are you getting that most of their suicides are due to those things?

[Anonymous No.14100383]

>>14100372
actual sources would be helpful

[кoт No.14100438]

i identify myself as a sick man. ... a spiteful man. an unattractive man. a diseased man

[Anonymous No.14100595]

>>14098905
>the man with one joke

[Anonymous No.14100817]

>>14099350
You are completely out of your mind, anon. I teach arts courses at two universities. Aside from leaning left increasingly as the right makes their money pandering to anti-intellectual morons, academics have very little to do with any of this. Of course social constructors are local: a woman's social role, for instance, varies wildly with a few hours' travel in many parts of the world.

[Anonymous No.14100978]

>>14100104
>>14100040
I feel like you, and a lot of people ITT are missing the epistemological point I am trying to make.
Imagine an arbitrary set of numbers, say 1-100, now you could begin to categorise those numbers based on their attributes. E.g., prime numbers, even numbers, odd numbers, whole-square numbers, etc etc. These categories can overlap and range in size. The issue is that when you have a large population very nearly evenly split along very asymmetrical lines, i.e. one half of the population is capable of bearing children, then you begin to formulate a culture and an identity around these traits, the secondary characteristics of these qualities are the prototype for what we call gender. The problem is to satisfy MTF transgenders it is necessary to essentially BAN childbearers from having an identity because again if women choose to form a term and a movement around the reproductive rights and discrimination reproducers experience it will fundamentally exclude trans people. The words 'male' and 'female' are irrelevant and I think most trans people would agree that if female was to be the inclusive term but a new term 'biofem' and 'biofemism' were to become mainstream they would feel excluded. Their right to identify as female necessitates the preclusion of people forming an identity around their reproductive organs.

[Anonymous No.14101041]

>>14098877
>>14100978
Anon the problem you're having here is that you're trying to address transgenderism with logic when it foundatoinally is not a logical phenomenon. What is the very first, fundamental step in the genesis of a human into a transgender?

"I feel like I'm a woman, therefore I'm a woman."

There is no logos to it at all, it is entirely an irrational, emotional expression. Now, there's certainly a conversation to be had on why all of a sudden these people feel like they're women, but that's not exclusive to the fact that it is simply a feeling. You're not going to get anywhere engaging in people who support this feeling because they'll use any mental gymnastics to turn their emotional appeal into a logical one and it's always going to be lacking. For example, look at the gender-sex split that's been invented by transgenderists. It makes no sense at all but it's been accepted by nearly everyone for the sake of not damaging the fragile emotional appeal of transgenders.

[Anonymous No.14101114]

>>14098963
Peterson did and it worked out pretty well for him

[Anonymous No.14101180]

>>14101114
true, but Peterson valued speaking on the subject more than his job and reputation from his constituents; I'm don't know how many like-minded academics (regarding being trans) hold the same values

[Anonymous No.14101243]

don’t even ‘cisgender’ people understand their gender differently between one another? you have different kinds of men, macho men, metrosexual men.. maybe the macho men feel like their shitty tiny body doesn’t really make them macho so they go take a buttload of steroids and shit.

once you get to the point where you are convinced you feel socially more like a woman, it would make perfect sense to start lobbing your knob off

[Anonymous No.14101341]

>>14101243
No it doesn't at all you retard. Getting /fit/ makes you more capable at mastering your surroundings and better able to defend yourself, which are fundamental hallmarks of what it means to be a man. A weak man can become a strong man if he puts the work into it, it's a physically attainable goal. A tranny who wants to become a woman isn't becoming more like a woman by cutting off his dick, he's merely becoming a neutered man. Becoming a woman is a physically unattainable goal, and it's not a healthy one either.

[Anonymous No.14101354]

>>14098877
Zizek, look for his article called something like "Trans Ideology isn't Freudian Enough"

[Anonymous No.14101363]

Transgenderism basically means you don't like the sex you were born in and you want to change to the opposite one. There is no such thing as being born male but really deep down being female, this is just a leftist delusion. There is also no such thing as a desire that is wrong or unnatural, this is a right wing delusion. It's just a matter of taste, like preferring vanilla or chocolate ice cream.

[Anonymous No.14101376]

>>14101341
> taking steroids makes you a master of your surroundings
whatever next, estrogen therapy gives you feminine intuition and the ability to multitask?

maybe the unfit man can use his wits to outsmart machoman, all he needs to do is call him gay and his world shatters

[Anonymous No.14101454]

>>14101376
Guys who take steroids generally compete, and you're not going to get the body you need to compete without juice. You seem kind of low IQ because you seem to think there's some kind of 0-sum slider between being strong and smart and that people who spend hours working hard are somehow going to be more fragile than people who don't. Being stronger, faster, and having better stamina allows you to have more power over your surroundings, I don't know how much cope you have to have to deny this. You don't need to take steroids to do this.

[Anonymous No.14101508]

>>14101454
>am i a rabbit or a turtle?
if you need the agility to hunt barefoot in the jungle, being a muscle man is only going to be to your disadvantage

you might even prefer to be a woman than to stomp like a thiccboi through that thicket

[Anonymous No.14101560]

>>14101508
Who the fuck is hunting in a jungle in 2019 you fucking retard? You haven't made a single cogent point at all. You can make money competing in body building competitions, people who take part in them are generally trying to make money doing something they enjoy.

[Anonymous No.14101622]

>>14101560
there are definitely many more hunter-gatherers hunting, fuck even many more trannies with no dicks in the world today, than there are men making money in body building champs

[Anonymous No.14101629]

>>14101622
Are the societies that have gyms and perform gender reassignment surgeries made up of hunter gatherers?

[Anonymous No.14101673]

>>14101629
i think what we’ve discerned so far is that what matters in those societies is whether or not you ‘feel’ like a hunter-gatherer inside

[Anonymous No.14101715]

>>14101673
No, what we've discerned is that feeling like a hunter gatherer doesn't make you one any more than cutting your dick off makes you a woman. Comparing men who have tangible goals that are possible, like being strong or dressing well, to trannies who have an impossible goal, becoming a woman by mutilating their genitals, is stupid.

[Anonymous No.14101725]

Gender exists on the level of the social body. It's a set of social relations and linguistic rules based on a persons physical appearance. If that particular physical appearance changes the position of that person in the social order changes with it.

a transgender person is a person who is unhappy with the unified matrix of their physical body immanent to the social body. EG it is both at once a social and a physical problem and must be remedied with two understandings as a result, that the transgender person's body in fact is wrong and that the social structure of limitless capital accumulation necessitates firm gender roles assigned to physical features.

I don't see how any of this is epistemologically invalid.

[Anonymous No.14101733]

>>14101715
>but taking steroids can be a valid part of what makes you a man

[Anonymous No.14101789]

>>14101041
OK, I was just trying to clarify to myself that my reasoning is sound. I haven't really seen any counter arguments. I see the crux of the issue as this:
Group A holds a position that gender is the product of biology
Group B holds that gender is a social construct
The issue as I see it, put most simply, is that transgenderism, not the non-binary movement which holds the view of there being other genders but specifically that a man can become a woman, necessitates the exclusion of possibility A. So if there is a compound factor at play, in which society AND biology contribute to gender identity, then one cannot acknowledge transgenderism without establishing a separate category of biowomen. I.e. Male, Female, Biomale, Biofemale, but that will eventually just semantically simplify to Male, Female, Transmale, Transfemale, since most people will simply opt for biological identification. You cannot enforce a fluid approach to gender without necessarily DISPROVING the biological component to identity.

[Anonymous No.14101835]

>>14101725
Everyone in this argument is getting hung up on gender expression and social norms. What I am talking about is extremely simple, let me break it down as simply as possible. It is conceptually possible that having two X chromosomes brings with it a subjectively different perception of reality, it is very well possible that being a woman is in fact a completely DIFFERENT experience of reality than being a man, independent of what society perceives you as. That a person with XX chromosomes but who lives on some alien planet without genders would still *feel* different than a person with XY chromosomes in exactly the same position. It is not only possible, but very likely, even basic stimulants/depressants have a phenomenologically significant impact on perception. So imagine you take a human and you break down all the components that contribute to their experience of reality, their hormonal profile, their neurochemistry, their height, their race, etc. All of these play a role, perhaps trivial, perhaps not. You can mimic 99% of them, even 99.9% of them, the problem is if there exists a single physical characteristic shared by a group of people, they should be morally allowed to identify with that characteristic. Even if racism was non-existent black people should still be allowed to claim that there is a unique quality inherent to 'being black' and have a shared community built on that physical trait. The thing is people seem to believe that all of this is socially informed, that black people form an identity because they are discriminated against, but to claim this to fundamentally delegitimise the agency of black people to believe that being black confers a different experience that is shared by other black people. The problem with transgenderism isn't the bit where a person identifies with the opposite gender, it's the part where they deny that there might be a physiological characteristic that excludes them.

[Anonymous No.14101872]

>>14101725
>>14101835
Imagine a venn diagram and you have the 'woman' circle, and it's collectively every subjective experience that constitutes the shared properties women perceive themselves as having. An MTF can occupy 99% of it, let's say they appear female, have hormone therapy, go to a female school etc. etc. there is still a fundamental non-zero quantity of 'qualia' that will distinguish them from literally EVERY born female, the possession of a uterus lets say. The issue is you basically have to say that people with uteruses CANNOT self-identify, by choice, as having a uterus because THEIR identity offends them. If it does not offend them, let's say people start identifying themselves by that trait, and you have Biomale/Biofemale/Male/Female. You need to essentially argue that this distinction is an illusion, but this is an epistemological impossibility because you would need to simultaneously live life as a person with a uterus and a person without a uterus to conclusively state that possessing a uterus confers no difference in experience.
People ascribe identity based any number of characteristics, being a lord of the rings fan, being tall, being blonde, being poor etc. Any shared trait will begin to birth a culture due to the feedback of the system, eventually this culture will start to define the characteristics and a loop is begun. I can't say that having dark skin is no different than having light skin, or that being tall is no different than being short. And I cannot say that having a uterus is of no consequence. Perhaps the first time I ever got hit in the testicles as a child was some defining moment and it is for every man but I don't even know because it happened at a young age. The point isn't whether this stuff is trivial or not, the examples I give of course are trivial, the point is whether or not I am ALLOWED to identify based on a physical trait.

[Anonymous No.14101903]

>>14101835
yeah, there may very well be differences in how people with XX and XY biological sex experiences reality as compared with the other

but the fact remains that people who share the same chromosomes still often have a different perception of what ‘being a woman’ or ‘being a man’ feels like. there is no universal repeatable experience, and so it goes that even a man can ‘feel’ some parts of what womanhood feels like.

of course, a biological man wouldn’t know what it feels like to have eggs with an expiration date and a monthly bleed, but chances are if they feel like a teanny it wasn’t those aspects that drew them there

[Anonymous No.14101908]

>>14101733
>if you work out you have to take steroids

>>14101789
They don't have to disprove the the biological component to identity because they're already working on tabula rasa, for them it goes without saying. The gender-sex distinction is a good bit of sophistry because it tricks you. At face value when you hear it explained you think "okay so they're at least acknowledging that there's biology at play here". But the real kicker is that they're really doing the opposite. They acknowledge biology(sex) and then say it's completely divorced from identity(gender). There's no proof necessary, it's a philosophical justification for an emotional appeal. Proof doesn't matter in our society.

[Anonymous No.14101913]

>>14101903
>feel like a tranny***

[Anonymous No.14101939]

>>14101903
>>14101913
Of course, but the issue stems from the fact that the trans acceptance necessitates the rejection of an additional set of identity terms for biomen and biowomen. This whole dilemma can be solved by simply having four genders. Biomen and Biowomen + Men and Women. Or conversely Men, Women, and Transmen + Transwomen.

[Anonymous No.14101951]

The more interesting question is, "Why is such a large amount of time spent discussing a minuscule minority when there are for more important matters that if resolved can benefit us all?"

[Anonymous No.14101986]

>>14101939
>>14101951

yeah the issue definitely is with the narratives and social antagonisms being spun around this issue. to me being a tranny is as dumb as being macho, magically thinking their way to ‘true manhood’

as for gender names why can’t we just say ‘feminine male’ ‘masculine female’ - unless biological men really wanna join the gynocologist that bad

[Anonymous No.14102039]

>>14101951
it's being astroturfed fairly aggressively by pharmaceutical companies and right wing / religious elements

[Anonymous No.14102079]

>>14100595
Hey, stop misrepresenting him, there's also 'commie no food' and 'vuvuzela'.

[Anonymous No.14102083]

>>14101114
Peterson is a junkie that is not taken seriously within his field, let alone philosophy which is what is being discussed here.
So I wouldn't say it's working out amazingly.

[Anonymous No.14102089]

>>14101673
'feel like a hunter-gatherer'.
Just sounds like fash larping to me, buddy.

[Anonymous No.14102100]

>>14098877
>I am a pseudo-philosopher who has made some semi-coherent theory in the confines of my own room with the help of a shitty, non-critical reading of some of my pet-philosophers.
Why don't actual philosophers take me seriously?
Sounds like you'll fit right in here.

[Anonymous No.14102115]

>>14099145
>Why do trannies insist there are more than binary boundaries of sex/gender
Very few of them do

>>14098877
Though the discussion produced by the thread is surprisingly good, I think OP does a fundamental mistake by trying to bring an irrational mental disorder to the level of a philosophical problem. Transgender people have certain concepts of what the other gender is and find those elements in themselves, embedded too deeply in their minds to the point that they clash with the physical body. We're not talking about absolute knowledge but of feeling. To take your reasoning to an extreme, how can I know that anyone is a woman if I'm not a woman myself? But I do have concepts that typically form what I call a woman. (Or how can second generation Muslims in Europe feel alienated and foreigners to the country they were born in?) That transgenders, especially MTFs, have an approximate, and sometimes even misconstrued image of the other gender, is not a secret, and is evident from the frequently radical, almost caricatural feminine looks and behaviour they can embrace.

[Anonymous No.14102118]

>>14098905
you can try

[Anonymous No.14102657]

>>14099752
>a sexist hetero male doesn't hate pussy, he hates "women," he may call his son a pussy even if he knows him to have a penis
Isn't this a transparently bullshit argument?

[Anonymous No.14102671]

>>14100104
>no one would consciously choose to develop a barely treatable condition that makes your life infinitely worse
They absolutely would

[Anonymous No.14102684]

>>14102100
Refute the point. How do you square the circle of trans acceptance with the freedom to identify based on physiology?

[Anonymous No.14102723]

>>14100104
Not on topic with what OP said, but I believe that it should be an absolute ethical law that physical pain should never be introduced to alleviate psychological pain due to there being no way for informed consent to occur at any reasonable level. I myself have suffered from severe anxiety from childhood but when I got into a car accident I gave myself a permanent physical injury, what followed was five years of hell even though the physical injury was relatively mild (chronic back pain) it absolutely long term is the worse problem. I know especially amongst younger people psychological pain can be overwhelming, but there is something to be said about the horror of a chronic physical source of pain. Utterly relentless. Even if surgery cures dysmorphia 100%, there is no way to achieve informed consent, no one who hasn’t had chronic pain can know how damaging it is. This is why I also think transgenderism is closely tied to ideology, many trans people argue that SRS is the best treatment available don’t really seem keen on there BEING better alternatives in the future. Hair transplant is the only current cure for balding but I definitely am optimistic that one day there will be a single pill you take and it cures your balding. However many trans people I have asked find the idea of a pill that eliminates their dysphoria as being anathema. It is offensive to their very being and sense of self. This is where epistemology comes in to the argument because while the trans movement often cites medical literature in describing their disorder and their treatment, the treat the condition itself as metaphysical tied to their sense of self.