/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14085457]

Peoples inability to analyze and interpret art as something more than surface level.
I feel like I see this so much now, especially somewhere like /tv/. No movie is about anything other than what happens, there has so be conclusive answers. The constant threads about the Sopranos ending are a good example. The thought of the ending representing something, being something that you aren't supposed to "figure out" doesn't make sense to them.
I also remember seeing this in one of my classes, on our online discussion boards. We read a text and someone had a response that was just very matter of fact about what happened in the story. Someone else replied to them and said it was good they didn't have any baseless interpretations of the text because you can't know anything for sure.

It's weird, I feel like we don't discuss art anymore as being anything more than what we see, why is that?

[Anonymous No.14085512]

Two reasons:

1. Most people have no interest in delving into art beyond the surface level.

2. Most people aren’t overly intelligent or artistic minded.

I do think at least from the perspective of film that audiences have gotten dumber. Compare what was mainstream in the 1970s (directors exploring unique and challenging visions) to what’s mainstream now. It’s absurd.

[Anonymous No.14086142]

>>14085457
It goes hand in hand with most peoples inability to analyze life and look beyond the surface in general. Add in the tendency of the myopic guards of 'high culture' who take it upon themselves to determine what is worth analyzing and what should just be written off as being exactly what is suggested by the surface.

[Anonymous No.14086149]

The /tv/ threads on the end of the sopranos do my he'd it
What happened when the scene cut to black? The programme ended

[Anonymous No.14087777]

>>14085457
There is also the interpretations where everything is symbolic, just as tiring

[Anonymous No.14087787]

>>14085512
People have gotten smarter in some ways and dumber in others. People definitely used to be more well-read and have better ability for abstract thought. People today are more logical thinkers better at working within the confines of a system, but struggle a lot more to think outside of it.

[Anonymous No.14087798]

>ahahah muh epic soprano denier meme to redpill the normies

Art isn't being interpreted as much todays because it has been popularized and the average people doesn't think too much about art.

[Anonymous No.14087799]

>>14085457
What are you on about? Every pseud and his dog constantly spouts vague or overspeculative 'deep' nonsense about art. The image of it is socially conditioned and beneficial, so everyone does it. Probably the most blatant public example is those meaningless fucking video essays on YouTube about film, literature, and anime. All are an attempt to capture that image for its social, egoistic and monetary benefit, not merely intellectualisation of art. What substance is there is so shallow it can be summed without loss within a paragraph or less. Everything else is appearance, unabashed marketing for both the art piece in question and the intellectualiser himself. Retards lap it up. Your telling me this isn't the status quo because some dumb cunts, or world-weary intellectual superiors, are irreverent towards your attempt assume this image? Or more generously, towards others that you, the true one, get sadly lumped in with. P

[Anonymous No.14087818]

Show me the correct way to engage in art criticism O wise noble one. Starting with this:

Fire and Ice
by Robert Frost

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

[Anonymous No.14087824]

>>14087798
>ahahah muh epic soprano denier meme to redpill the normies
Jesus christ

[Anonymous No.14087840]

>>14087798
>ahahah muh epic soprano denier meme to redpill the normies

Cookie monster needs your help.
He wants to bake lots of cookies for all his friends on Sesame Street.
It takes one oven one hour to bake a batch of cookies. Cookie monster has 15 ovens.

Can you help him bake 6,000,000 cookies in 4 years?

[Anonymous No.14087965]

>>14087840
Why do deniers keep getting such basic facts wrong.
Not only do the ovens have multiples mugfles but no one ever claimed 6 millions got incinerated outside of /pol/ propaganda infographic.

Such a gross display of ignorance shouldn't be possible if you did even the most basic of research into the holocaust. I'd ask you to apologize but you probably won't even answer and simply spout the next propaganda "fact" that was programmed into you.

[Anonymous No.14087974]

>>14087840
are you saying not a single jewish person was killed outside of crematoriums during ww2?

[Anonymous No.14088003]

I never got it honestly as I like impressionism which generally has intent to create narrow scope of emotions, thoughts and images. Whatever you see past that is only what you see there and not something the creator has intended, I think.
But in most of what can be considered actual art you always see what you want depending on how you look at it; that's why being a critique is being an artist and why no artist can not be a critique.
The problem with critiques is not that they see shit but that they are not poets thus their transpositions are shit.
>No movie is about anything other than what happens
That's not true. You have metaaspects which negate it wholly, something you don't really see in the book, you are basically exposed both to how was it shot, what was shot and context of it, whereas in book you are exposed only to result ie what was shot and context isn't intrinsic to the nature at all as you have few pages of context as opposed to seconds or frame, the process simply isn't there and needs to be revealed through study.

[Anonymous No.14088661]

>>14087965
So how many did get incinerated? Let's go for a very very very liberal answer of 1 million.
Where are the 5 million buried? Neither aerial photos taken by the allies or any subsequent terrestrial scans have ever revealed any mass grave at any of the death camps that could possibly make up for the magical 5 million missing corpses?
You assume whatever I say is born out of propoganda yet you don't stop to consider that your own ignorance is grown out of propoganda.
>>14087974
I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that surely we would've found the secret mass grave storing the corpses of the other 5.5 million who weren't cremated.

[Anonymous No.14088673]

Art has multiple layers. Just be happy that normies get to experience at least some of them. That still has value.

[Anonymous No.14088707]

>>14088661
Are you retarded? Mass graves show up all the time, because a lot of people were killed at the front as well as the camps nigger. Also deniers lie about the nature of the graves already known about
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-than-1200-holocaust-victims-discovered-in-mass-grave-laid-to-rest-in-belarus/
https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/or8-mass-graves-belzec/

[Anonymous No.14088741]

>“The universality of the lyric’s substance, however, is social in nature. Only one who hears the voice of humankind in the poem’s solitude can understand what the poem is saying; indeed, even the solitariness of lyrical language itself is prescribed by an individualistic and ultimately atomistic society, just as conversely it’s general cogency depends on the intensity of its individuation. For that reason, however, reflection on the work of art is justified in inquiring, and obligated to inquire concretely into its social content and not content itself with a vague feeling of something universal and inclusive. This kind of specification through thought is not some external reflection alien to art; on the contrary, all linguistic works of art demand it. The material proper to them, concepts, does not exhaust itself in mere contemplation. In order to be susceptible of aesthetic contemplation, works of art must always be thought through as well, and once thought has been called into play it does not let itself be stopped at the poem’s behest.”
— Adorno, “On Lyric Poetry and Society.” Notes to

somewhat relevant adorno take

[Anonymous No.14088749]

>>14088661
You know you could just have spent 30s to search holocaust mass grave in your search engine of choice and found plenty of results right? It still doesn't make you less retarded.

>Where are the 5 million buried?
>mass grave storing the corpses of the other 5.5 million who weren't cremated
Lmao are we going to need to find 6 millions corpses for your next post? You're acting like a jewish stereotype.

[Anonymous No.14088781]

Beauty as a whole has been thrown down and replaced with feel good meaninglessness.
Beauty in music? Gone
Beauty in art? Gone
Beauty in film? Gone
Beauty in family? also gone

Beauty is beautiful because it is intelligent, ordered and meaningful. Everything beautiful has or is being put to the torch. Why is that?
Pol will blame the jews, but the real answer envelops more that one people. Chaos and destruction plagues the minds of every people and every person on this Earth. It is our responsibility to safe guard order, life and beauty. Rant over

[Anonymous No.14088821]

>>14088707
When you can find the graves that add up to anything over 2 million, I'll happily believe you. I'm not one of those tards that believe Jews weren't systematically murdered. I just think the 6 million number is bullshit to help justify the creation of a Jewish state in the middle east. Finding random graves across Poland, Belarus and Germany is all well and good, but most of these only ever contain 500-2,000 people. If we're talking about millions, we need further proof.

[Anonymous No.14088970]

>>14088821
Why bother lying to me about your good faith intentions dude, you're anonymous. Do some research, you'll find the exact same material as me.
https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/or24-death-camps/
https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/or21-remains-teeth/

[Anonymous No.14088991]

>>14088970
Wow bro, why didn't I ever think of googling something??? Denailists BTFO eternally by top search results on Google. How will we ever recover?
Get off your high horse man. You're totally right. I am anonymous. So why are you trying to assign me to the /Pol/ boogyman rather than just assuming that perhaps someone has doubts over a seemingly impossible claim. Your brainwashing is apparent from the sharp emotional response you have to the mere thought of someone disagreeing with you.

[Anonymous No.14089036]

>>14088991
Okay so have you read any literature on the Holocaust? I don't and haven't, I'm not interested in it - if a bunch of specialists say it's six millionish and there's evidence of lots of graves and Nazi docs supporting it I'm fine accepting it. Emotively bleating about how emotional and brainwashed everyone else is cos you got triggered I said you weren't acting in good faith does you no favours. I didn't mention /pol/ or call you a Nazi or anything else either you woman.

[Anonymous No.14089389]

>>14088991
>seemingly impossible

The world is full of impossible death counts. I guess one of the latest exemple is how the Rwandese scored 800k in only a fraction of their country, mostly with machetes and other cheap weapons, in 6 month, while fighting a losing war.

Are you telling me one of the mightiest european army couldn't do better across all europe?

[Anonymous No.14089395]

>>14087818
It’s about game of thrones

[Anonymous No.14089591]

>>14085457
"Just the facts, ma'am" has gone from a matter of police procedure to an entire fucking ontology for the industrialized world. As for the zoomers in your online class, a PhD student I know believes that standardized testing is to blame. That it's created an entire generation that believes in ready answers to any question, because that's how the world has to be presented in order to condense it into a multiple-choice test. His analogous complaint of zoomers is, when it comes to some long-standing philosophical issue, they'll ask, "yes, but what's the answer?"

[Anonymous No.14089611]

>>14085457
Most people are stupid anon. Also fuck television series as a dramatic medium. It is a terrible narrative medium because the writers serve their best interest which is to draw it out longer than it should be so that they retain their jobs. Sopranos should have ended season 2. Wilfred should have ended season 2. It's a trashcan medium and actual films are always better for full blown drama because of this structural shortcoming. I will cede an exception for series with a set endpoint from the beginning. My girlfriend tried to get me to watch Game of Thrones and all it has been is softcore pornography interposed between dumb politics and set ups for the next sex scene. I'm completely convinced that people only like the show by proxy because you end up fucking your girl every episode. I think people just associate the COOM with GoT.

[Anonymous No.14089640]

>>14089611
Patrick McGoohan had to argue with studio execs to end The Prisoner after one series, precisely because he didn't think there was anything left to do with it.

[Anonymous No.14089666]

>why do people only discuss the content of a book/film/show?

What else would you want to discuss?

[Anonymous No.14089676]

>>14088991
The reason for the 6,000,000 number is because it was in jewish prophecy for the creation of the third Israel. It has nothing to do with how many jews did or did not die. The one and only reason for that number being used is that it was a prophecy.

That doesn't change the fact that a lot of jews got killed. The reason that the jews defend the 6,000,000 hoax number is because there were massive divides in their community prior to WW2 about zionism. Their leaders and rabbis were literally chasing each other around the planet and assassinating each other because of their squabbles over religion / zionism / how fast / how slow / etc etc.

The 6,000,000 magic number is the only thing that has ever been able to get the jews to stop killing each other. That is why they fight to protect it. Not because it is true.

[Anonymous No.14089819]

>>14088003
>>No movie is about anything other than what happens
>That's not true.
I think he's talking that's what it's like for /tv/ to discuss it

[Anonymous No.14089825]

>>14085457
for that you would need to induce psychosis somehow. try the hypnotic spiral.

[Anonymous No.14089872]

>>14088661
nice pilpul, goy

[Anonymous No.14089879]

>>14089676
take your meds

[Anonymous No.14089945]

People usually analyse plot and nothing else. They also seem to hold the assumption that every piece of art has a point and it's the interpreter's aim to get this point. That's basically it.

[Anonymous No.14089952]

>>14087787
Ellul explains this quite well. It's a symptom of technique.

[Anonymous No.14089959]

>>14087787
cope

[Anonymous No.14089974]

>>14089591
It's how their essays are graded, bright kids who respond naturally to material have to treat every assignment like a check list and the retards bullshit through the requirements anyways so no one learns anything. It's a joke.

[Anonymous No.14090613]

>>14089879
Haavara Agreement.