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/lit/ - Literature

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14073640 No.14073640[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why have Christians fundamentally failed to answer the problem of evil?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

>> No.14073661

"Evil" doesn't exist. There is only obedience or disobedience to God's will. The rest is not for us to understand (see Augustine on the beach).

>> No.14073669

>>14073640
God was willing to prevent evil but WOMEN weren’t, hence why Eve cursed humanity for all eternity.

>> No.14073671

Evil doesnt exist in itself. It just a human judgment.

>> No.14073672

>>14073640
God gave mankind freedom. With freedom comes good and evil. If God cleaned up the messes of mankind, they wouldn't be free, they would be handheld forever.

>> No.14073676

>>14073640
God can do whatever he wants. A world with evil is much more interesting and complex. If I could create a universe, I certainly wouldn’t make it without conflict or struggle

>> No.14073678

>>14073640
Yes, read this and shut up already.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k41853t

>> No.14073684

>>14073661
>>14073671
dude "god" could totally prevent disease and tornadoes and shit..the question is why cant he

>> No.14073690

>>14073684
>prevent
God sent them

>> No.14073703

Almost every story involves conflict, evil exists to make life more interesting. Without evil you basically lose an entire dimension of reality, and where do you draw the line between evil and good anyway?

Not a Christfag but I believe in god and this is probably the reason he made evil.

>> No.14073708

Who are you to say "evil" things are evil? all of history is simply the manifestation of God

>> No.14073726

>>14073690
god is evil then

>> No.14073817

All good comes from the fact there is evil to do acts of good against

>> No.14073851

>>14073726
He sent them for our betterment, not our chastisement.

>> No.14073862

>>14073684
natural disasters could be related to metaphysical evil commited by humanity

>> No.14073863

>>14073661
Why would God have a desire or a will if he is already fulfilled? That implies temporal participation.
>>14073672
'God have mankind evil'
>>14073703
>evil exists to make life more interesting
God finds evil 'interesting'. Sounds like a serial killer.
>>14073708
a non answer, all you do is give him absolute power as a way to prevent answering

>> No.14073868

>>14073669
BASED

>> No.14073899

>>14073868
It's unbased and follows in her original sin. Eve blamed the snake. Adam blamed Eve. Everyone else has been blaming either Eve or Adam rather than themselves.

>> No.14073905

>>14073899
Did Adam sin? Dumb atheist.

>> No.14073908

>>14073905
Yes, he ate the fruit too.

>> No.14073912

>>14073863
God gave mankind freedom not evil. Evil is when mankind abuses the freedom bestowed on him.
All evil comes from freedom, not from God. Evil is just freedom corrupted by free agents to suit their own egos.

>> No.14073943

>>14073640
Good cannot exist without evil, it's a continuous scale

>> No.14073952

>>14073912
Freedom contains negative liberty. You are not saying that 'God gave man freedom' but God gave man duality, which is evil, because if he was a good God he would've just gave us good.

>> No.14073957

>>14073952
>but God gave man duality
Pardon?

>> No.14073977

>>14073957
Freedom contains a duality.

>> No.14073984

>>14073952
God gave only good. Freedom. Man uses that freedom to either do good or to selfishly abuse it.
You cant blame your dad for giving you a gift that you misused.

>> No.14074001

>>14073984
You must be unfamiliar with the concept of 'negative liberty'. Freedom contains a dualism. It's not a gift by nature of the defintion of freedom.

>> No.14074031
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14074031

>>14073640
Plato "retroactively refuted" this argument by defining evil as the turning away from the sovereign and immutable good, i.e. God. Actual evil in the world results from men doing this. Natural disasters, disease, suffering, are not of themselves evil, as you seem to imply time and again in this thread like a child. In the grand scheme of things, they are extremely inconsequential, and sometimes much good can come of them. A more vexing question is why do some good people suffer while bad people prosper? This is rectified in the lens of eternity wherein the above alignment is the force for the hereafter. If you turned toward infinite good, then you shall receive infinite reward in the hereafter. If you turned away from it, infinite chastisement. This rectifies all injustices.

>> No.14074055

>>14074031
>defining evil as the turning away from the sovereign and immutable good

This ignores the fact that this 'immutable sovereign good' created such a 'turning away'. If he did not create such a turning away and man does it out of his own volition, then God is not omnipotent.

>> No.14074060
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14074060

>>14073640
Define evil.

>> No.14074080

>>14074060
The reason why Christians like to question the questioner is to get them to revert back to the point of absurdity. You want me to define evil so you can re-orient it to fit your already planned out argument. You're going to tell me that there is no such thing as 'unnecessary' suffering after I define suffering because it's just part of 'God's plan'. That argument won't suffice.

>> No.14074118

>>14074055
atheists are so fucking dumb, you should just stop trying to debate the religious and focus on your non-fiction books. its just sad because your arguments are childish. why do you feel the need to debate religious people in a topic that you clearly haven’t studied? just study religion, or don’t and shut the fuck up. you are the equivalent of a flat earther.

>> No.14074135

>>14074118
You didn't address the argument, sad.

>> No.14074136

>>14074055
He created man in his image and thus, imbued him with agency. He has no desire to prevent one from turning away as the decision to turn toward or away rests solely on them and are given an entire life to make the right choice. You complain of God for making man Godlike, and now are upset about the consequences that follow.

>> No.14074152

>>14074136
You are saying God created Man with 'agency', so free will, but this freedom entails evil, even on a causal level, let alone in terms of man's own cognition. To say that God is 'freedom' too, would mean that he contains both the curse and gift of freedom, good and evil. Therefore your God is not only good, but also evil.

>> No.14074155

>>14074080
So you're telling me evil is subjective to the eye of the beholder. If that's the case, we will never reach a consensus if Christianity reached its goal of explaining the problem of evil or not.
Christianity has its proper definition on what's evil and that's why it solved the problem, even if that does not satisfy you.

>> No.14074180

>>14074155
'God is awesome and evil is just people's decisions' is not an argument, because the question is precisely against that premise...

>> No.14074187

>>14074152
Evil is nothing more than a privation of good.

>> No.14074191
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14074191

>>14073640
You haven't been paying attention. We have several problem of evil threads every week.

>> No.14074193

>>14074180
God is Good itself and the source of all of it. So good is everything that goes in accord to God's Will and evil everything that goes against it. Evil exists the same way that empty exists.

>> No.14074234

>>14074187
Yeah but God created that privation, nothing is created outside of him
>>14074193
God is not Good if he gave man the agency to do evil and created evil itself. God is not good if he is powerful enough to stop evil but doesn't. You can't keep repeating that God is Good without answering these things. It's not an argument.

>> No.14074241

>>14074193
Also evil is not emptyness, you have to prove that metaphysically as well

>> No.14074292

>>14074234
God is Love. God gave humanity free will so that they could love him on their own volition because love can't be forced. But free will comes with the problem that humanity can choose not to love him. By not loving God you go against him, so you commit evil.
>>14074241
I don't even know what you're trying to say. Are you expecting that I agree with you on your particular idea of evil instead of the one that comes from a thousand year old tradition?

>> No.14074327

>>14073671
The correct question is why does God, if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-good, allow suffering.
There is no answer to this and it is a devastating argument against Christianity. It has never been answered by any theologian or philosopher.

>> No.14074334

>>14073676
This is the argument, Hence God is not a "good" entity.

>> No.14074338

>>14074327
Original Sin. Literally humanity's fault.

>> No.14074344

>>14073684
>implying diseases and tornadoes are evil
who do you think you are?

>> No.14074348

>>14073726
>god is evil then

That's the problem. The responses are that evil is "interesting". That makes God evil.

>> No.14074353

>>14074031
>In the grand scheme of things, they are extremely inconsequential
How can you be so arrogant if you're going to be this retarded? I mean seriously, I could set up a chatbot with more resilience than you

>> No.14074359
File: 93 KB, 1280x720, Arya.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14074359

>>14073640
>Then whence cometh evil?
"Evil" originated with the Demiourgos, Ialdabaoth, an abortive emanation of Sofia's terror of finding herself in Khaos - beyond the plenitude of God - in the same manner that an artist's experiential terror is transmitted, and manifests, in the morbid characteristics of his/her work, except that the former was generated on an ontological level. If it were not for the former, along with its sequential aberrative subhuman and demonic spawns, Sofia would have ascended into plenitude through her children, along with her companion Saturn/Kronos/Sabaoth, the original King of the Aryans.

>Is he both able and willing?
Yes, just as God was both: able, and willing, to give Sofia the gift of free will, which Sofia directed toward God in prayer of salvation, with God having answered it by sending its angels to Sofia, and the direction of which persists in Sofia, and her children, to this day, with Christ.

>> No.14074360

>>14073912
This argument is for Theism not Christianity. Christianity maintains God interacts with humankind and therefore does not value freedom.

>> No.14074364

>>14073684
>diseases and weather are EVIL
no not really. If the question is: Why does god let us die? the answer is so that we can be judged after. Any real Christian has no reason to fear death.

t. not religious

>> No.14074365

>>14074338
So you're in favor of pay reparations to the descendants of slaves, then? Since what you're saying is that sin, and the wages of sin, are inherited.

>> No.14074367

>>14073943
>Good cannot exist without evil, it's a continuous scale

The right question is why suffering, not why evil.

>> No.14074370

>>14073863
I have some news for you: he DOES have absolute power. the end

>> No.14074373

God is the totality of all that is, therefore It contains all the evil along with all the good. "God rules the world with two hands." Evil exists so that there can be opportunities for good, and vice versa, endlessly.

>> No.14074380

>>14074353
Temporal events are just that, temporal, whereas the hereafter, is infinite.

>> No.14074382

>>14073863
God's "will" is part of his essence.

>> No.14074386

>>14074234
Then we agree, that evil does not come from God.

>> No.14074390

>>14074365
I don't have an opinion and I don't care about the first part of your argument. But the second one is, indeed, correct.

>> No.14074400

>>14074031
>This rectifies all injustices.

Hence the problem of hiddeness.
If God is all-good, and suffering is actually just a way of getting a better reward, then why hide?

Here's the deal:
You cannot rectify suffering in the world with an all-powerful, all-good God that does not provide proof that (it) exists.
Further, if suffering is the way to get a bigger reward, why do some people get such an opportunity and others not?
I'm sorry, there is no religious answer.

>> No.14074411

>>14074390
Well be straight with me: if culpability is inherited, would you be willing to accept financial liability for the acts of all of your ancestors? Or a proportionate share of the liability, distributed among their surviving descendants. Or are you only willing to accept responsibility in this loosey goosey "God keeps it in his ledger books, swear" sense?

>> No.14074414

>>14074118
>just study religion
Studies have shown atheists and by far more intelligent and educated that religious people. In fact, it is typically those that study religion the most that become atheists. Philosophers have one of the highest rates of atheism. Criminals have the lowest.

>> No.14074427

>>14074370
Then he's evil. That's the point.

>> No.14074430

>>14074414
>atheists deeply understand theology and have read the Father and Mystics!!!

yeah uh huh.

>> No.14074432

As men, we cannot expect genuine answers to these questions. "Good and evil" can be easily witnessed and perceived in the world. A God, Christian or other, is not required to guide us toward understanding this duality, but if a God that stands for good is to be honored, a man should not pray to him- he should do good in the world by himself and by others.

>> No.14074439

>>14074373
Then why suffering?
Further, you are defining God as both evil and good. Christianity says God is all-good and ONLY all-good. You are a heretic.
This is the problem.
THEISM does not have a problem with evil/suffering. Christianity has the problem.

>> No.14074445

>>14074427

heres the thing. you're trying to understand god as if god is human. you don't UNDERSTAND god, you EXPERIENCE him.

>> No.14074452

>>14074386
>Then we agree, that evil does not come from God.

If you say evil does not come from God then you are not a Christian.
If evil comes from man, then who created man?

>> No.14074461

>>14074445
>you don't UNDERSTAND god, you EXPERIENCE him.

Fine, then you are not a Christian. That is a heretical statement.
The point is that the only answers to this problem violate Christian dogma, as you just did.

>> No.14074468

>>14074461

please tell me how not being able to understand God is a heresy.

>> No.14074474

>>14074411
I will be serious with you. I wouldn't. But it's only an opinion of mine.
That doesn't change at all what is true and that is that we inherited the Original Sin.

>> No.14074480

>>14074430
>yeah uh huh.
Read the Pew report on atheism in America. Atheists are the smart ones and know much mroe about religion than the faithful.

>> No.14074484

>>14074439
>8. “Good things and evil… are from God.” (Eccl. xi. 14.) All blessings such as riches and honours and all misfortunes such as sickness and persecutions come from God. But mark that the Scripture calls them evils, only because we, through the want of conformity to the will of God, regard them as evils and misfortunes. But, in reality, if we accepted them from the hands of God with Christian resignation, they should be blessings and not evils. The jewels which give the greatest splendour to the crown of the saints in heaven, are the tribulations which they bore with patience, as coming from the hands of the Lord. On hearing that the Sabeans had taken away all his oxen and asses, holy Job said: “The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away.” (Job i. 21.) He did not say that the Lord gave, and that the Sabeans had taken away; but that the Lord gave, and that the Lord had taken away: and therefore he blessed the Lord, believing that all had happened through the divine will. “As it has pleased the Lord, so it is done: blessed be the name of the Lord.” (Ibid.) Being tormented with iron hooks and burning torches, the holy martyrs Epictetus and Atone said: ”Lord, thy will be done in us.” And their last words were: ”Be blessed, eternal God, for having given us the grace to accomplish thy will.”

>> No.14074493

>>14074480

know "about" religion ≠ understand theology

>> No.14074494

>>14074468
>please tell me how not being able to understand God is a heresy.

You said I was trying to understand God as a human. That is EXACTLY what defines Christianity - Jesus is God made man.
If you say we cannot witness God as a human you are saying Christianity is false.

Besides, your comment has nothing to do with the problem of evil/suffering.

>> No.14074501

I think there is a difference between human evil and True Evil. Doesn't Satan mean something like "Adversary to Truth"? In this way, I think there is a fundamental Truth (God, Holiness, etc) and people who go against this fundamental Truth are evil. When you unknowing go against the Truth, you are Human Evil and when you willingly go against the Truth (and seek others to do so as well) you are True Evil.
The thing is, the nature of Truth is not contingent on modern societal values, we cannot assume that what we consider to be righteous and moral is righteous and moral to God, we can only assume that moving towards Truth is the righteous path and moving away from Truth is the unrighteous path.

>> No.14074520

>>14074494

you misunderstand; Jesus is not human: he is God AND human. This is different from Jesus as human. 2nd, you cannot "understand" God. period. look into Theoria and Hesychasm

>> No.14074527

>>14074484
That's the point. If God tortures you for rewards he's nasty bastard. Saying WHY he does it doesn't make him a good guy.
If I slap my child with a belt, giving him a nice birthday present doesn't make me a good person.
That's the point of the argument.
Christianity is inconsistent.

You cannot reconcile the world with an all-good, all-powerful deity.

Some have tried. For example, free will. But this violates Christianity, because God has intervened in human actions throughout history.

Study philosophy. Christianity can't answer it. You can make a variation (God is not really all-good), but you are then being a heretic.

>> No.14074537

>>14074520
>Jesus is not human: he is God AND human

Blatant logical fallacy:
A && B -> !A

Mike drop.

>> No.14074546

>>14074537
>>14074527
your problem lies in the assumption that metaphysical can be understood via the physical. if this were the case, it would not be the metaphysical.

>> No.14074548

>>14074537

>what is the hypostatic union

"mic drop".

you really really really really don't understand theology. please take a basic theology course at a local catholic university. this is intro level stuff

>> No.14074552

>>14074527
They are not chastisements. Suffering makes people better.

>> No.14074562

>>14074548
>please take a basic theology course at a local catholic university

Just to be honest, I have 10 years of Catholic School education and 2 master's degrees, including a minor in philosophy at a top 20 university.

and yes, sorry, "mic drop".

>> No.14074569

>>14074562
yet you've never heard of the hypostatic union? fascinating.

>> No.14074592

>>14074552

The problem with this thread is that people are not responding to the argument.
The argument is that Christianity maintains:
1) God is all-powerful
2) God is all-knowing
3) God is all-good
4) Evil exists
5) Suffering exists
6) God HAS at times intervened in human affairs

The above is inconsistent. Period.
You can make arguments that change Christianity, or make justifications. Al that is fine.
But it doesn't change the fact that the basic principles of Christianity are inconsistent.
No one. And I mean NO ONE, has ever resolved this.
The ONLY current response is by Plantinga, who argues free will, etc.
However, that does not jive with Christianity because according to the Bible God has many, many times interacted with human affairs. Heck, he made sure his mother;s party had enough alchohol so the guests could stay drunk (Jesus: water to wine).

>> No.14074600

>>14074592
Suffering exists for our betterment, brainlet.

>> No.14074601
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14074601

>>14073640
Whoever doesn't know the answer to this is retarded. 83 posts over such a stupid question... but this is obvious since /lit/ doesn't reading.

>> No.14074604

>>14074569
When did I say that?
You said we cannot evaluate God as human. I said we can because God was made human. That's basically the definition of Christianity.
Saying God is NOT human is heretical.

>> No.14074606

>>14074367
Pleasure can't exist without suffering, that's also a continuous scale

>> No.14074619

>>14074604
human ≠ God and human in one (hypostatic union). thought you understood this

>> No.14074620

>>14074600
>Suffering exists for our betterment, brainlet.

And again, you attempt to justify God's allowance of evil and suffering.
This is the point. God ALLOWS it.
You can say I allow my son to suffer so that he becomes a better person. But I am not all-powerful. So I have no choice.
God IS all-powerful, so he doesn't "need" to allow suffering. He CHOOSES to allow it. That makes him a nasty SOB.
That is the argument.
Saying suffering is good for us is NOT a response.

>> No.14074628

>>14074592
why is God obligated to force people to accept him?

>> No.14074631

>>14073640
notice how the religious retards align their "good" (aka weakness since Christianity was created by peasants) with an all-powerful god, just to tarnish evil (aka power). You want to know why they failed to answer it? Power beats weakness.

>> No.14074632

>>14073640
How can it be that god made a world this beautiful yet ruled by evil and violence? It's not the evil that creates suffering, because nature is evil at its core, it's the fact that evil destroys beauty. What monster would want something like this? Why wouldn't you just make hell?

>> No.14074643

>>14074606
>Pleasure can't exist without suffering, that's also a continuous scale

First of all, not true.
Second of all, then God is not all-powerful
Every response is a catch-22.
The argument is that Christianity is inconsistent.

Most theologians simply claim that God is simply NOT all-powerful. End of story. Discussion over. BUT...you are then changing Christianity. This is acknowledged in theological circles - and accepted.

>> No.14074650

>>14074631
>>14074632

>babby's first might is right

the proud shall be humbled.

>> No.14074660

>>14074620
God creates things he contempts to he can see them die, again and again, forever.
The Christian religion created a faulty conception of God. You really think slaves would know anything about power?

>> No.14074672
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14074672

*Proves suffering is the only path toward sentience, self-awareness and perfection and that without it we are just braindead NPCs*

nothing personal, kid.

>> No.14074677

>>14074650
>no argument
keep running away from the obvious: that weakness is not creative. Even Christianity is just a slave interpretation of Platonism. How am I supposed to take you seriously?

>> No.14074697
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14074697

>>14074359
What do you read? Can you give me a list? Such a shame this got no replies

>> No.14074702

>>14074327
God is not all-good. Whoever tells you that is trying to sell you something.

God is neither good nor bad, benevolent nor malevolent. You consider suffering a thing to avoid, it's irrelevant to the cosmic perspective. It's not that God is indifferent either, but simply so beyond comprehension that trying to understand the abstract valence to God's omnipresent action is futile.

You may ask yourself, why worship? There is no reason why. God does not require it, and God does not demand it. Anybody who suggests otherwise has deluded themselves.

>> No.14074746

>>14073851
Uhh sure? He sends violence, starving, diseases for our betterment. But happens to be the opposite. The good samaritan always suffer because of dumb fucks who cant get their shit together agains those "gods gifts", so in the end just people die and suffer because of the injust, how is that EVEN considerable a "betterment"?
Teach the violent a lesson through punishment? What of these good people with the will to live on good enough terms with everyone else? is it fair for them? or is it even their families? calling that "betterment" is BULLSHIT.

>> No.14074764
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14074764

>>14073640
1/3

>> No.14074773
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14074773

>>14074764

>> No.14074779

>>14074031
What about innocent children killed, murdered, raped? They never got the chance to live on earth. Can YOU or GOD assure it is fair or justified for them to die without doing anything for everything after? That's something only the kid would decide, and consider hes not even mature yet to know the depths of this life. So theres no real free will.
CONSIDER that the family of this kid is very likely to take revenge, murder, etc based on this "justified act of purity". Can you blame them? Didnt God with his perfectly balanced will wanted this to happen all along?

>> No.14074792
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14074792

>>14074773
3/3
Epicureans, hedonists, butterflies, ant-metaphysical philosophers, atheists, and scientists forever BTFO. How can they ever recover?

>> No.14074796

>>14074338
How the fuck is fair that i pay something that some retarded fuck did like trillions of years ago?

how is that just? That's entirely retarded. Sounds like a cheap excuse to justify evil happening.

>> No.14074826

>>14073640
So what if i want to live in the glorious and eternal afterlife right away? i suffer watching so much violence, injustified evilness, i just cant bear how can people be so damn cruel, theres just no reason to.
Yeah, no, he wont grant me that wish. And if i suicide then im a sinner put in the same bag as mass murderers and child rapists. Fuck religion man.

>> No.14074852

>>14074643
How is that not true? If you eliminate what is currently the worst suffering imaginable, there will be a new worst suffering which is slightly more pleasurable. This would continue until nothing exists. It is God's will to create the universe, so it must include evil and suffering if it is to include anything.

>> No.14074878
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14074878

>>14073640
What if I told you that Christianity isn't a philosophy made to give intellectually satisfying answers to every conceivable question.

>> No.14074907

>>14074779
>What about children
They receive eternity if they conform themselves to the will God. As for their perpetrators, they receive eternal torment. Hundreds of millions of years will pass, and their hell will only just have begun and will never cease. The infinitude of reward or punishment recompenses the misbalances experienced hereon earth.
>They never got the chance to live on earth.
The shorter one's life, the more it conforms with perfection, and the less chance they will have to commit mortal infractions, which by their nature are an infinite turning away from good. Theologians reject salvation of the many, and hold the longer one has in years, the more difficult it is for him to achieve salvation.
>hes not even mature yet to know the depths of this life.
"What are worldly goods? They may be all reduced to pleasures of sense, to riches, and to honours. “All that is in the world," says St. John, ”is the concupiscence of the flesh," or sensual delights, and “the concupiscence of the eyes," or riches, and “the pride of life" that
is, earthly honours. "

>> No.14074935

>>14073640
Theologians have answered this question time after time after time after time after time for hundreds of years, yet midwits like you still choose to remain ignorant and refuse to engage with the literature. Read a fucking book, nigger!

>> No.14074962

>>14074907
>The shorter one's life, the more it conforms with perfection, and the less chance they will have to commit mortal infractions, which by their nature are an infinite turning away from good. Theologians reject salvation of the many, and hold the longer one has in years, the more difficult it is for him to achieve salvation.

Amazing.So basically you say they were given free tickets to eternity. What about MINE children, and YOUR children? They simply werent chosen to have less oportunities fuck their chances to be forever happy, so random. AND Still unfair.

>"What are worldly goods? They may be all reduced to pleasures of sense, to riches, and to honours. “All that is in the world," says St. John, ”is the concupiscence of the flesh," or sensual delights, and “the concupiscence of the eyes," or riches, and “the pride of life" that
is, earthly honours
Again, you may try to speak as if you knew something "greater". But that's simply your thinking. You cant decide wether this person wanted or not wanted to be gone so soon.

Also, and more importantly, something you cannot argue im sure; Imagine you are the kid, you were killed. Now you watch quietly how your parents, will probably end up doing some fucked up thing, or at least be triggered by how you were treated and mistreat or do something unworthy of going where you went as well.

will you be happy knowing that your beloved family and friends could end in hell or whatever simply because it was decided like that?

Answer is; you cant. You dont decide that. And you cant control anything else than your own acts. Thus is ridiculous to expect that you were chosen to live eternally for free and watch your parents suffer for eternity, with the chance being that is due to how you ended up. WITHOUT EVEN CHOSING.

>> No.14074982

>>14073684
The word you're looking for is "calamity", or perhaps "disaster".

>> No.14075011

>>14074962
>Moving the goalposts

>> No.14075023
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14075023

God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, but not omnipotent. Sin has plagued Creation since the very beginning, before humans and probably even before life. We can see original sin clearly in the resource scarcity---consuming a calorie of energy denies that calorie of energy to another living being God loves. God has a hand in most all of what is good, and that which he doesn't is in some way inspired by his benevolence. Evil directs all which is evil and does its best to inspire more evil. We are all bound to be reborn in Heaven (the Pure Land), where God will purify our souls and return us to innocence and purity. We will all be forgiven of our sins, and the filth shall wash away. God sent messengers (like Christ, Amitabha, and various saints) to teach us the proper way. Of course, we are sinful and pervert the proper teachings with time like the "telephone" playground game. That is what humans do. One day though, we will all be saved from evil. That is the answer to the problem of evil, I think.

>> No.14075042
File: 2.84 MB, 2019x2581, heinrich-bullinger-1550-geschichte-des-kantons-zc3bcrich.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14075042

>>14073640
Reminder that most atheists actually believe this while having never even heard the word Theodicy, let alone dealt in good faith with the relevant books of the Bible or the vast corpus of Christian apologetic literature on this subject written during the last two millennia. A cute mantra they repeat to justify to themselves their hatred of God masquerading as disbelief, and one you could only humour by being entirely ignorant of the most basic concepts of the nature of the God of the Bible and His relation to man in scripture.

>> No.14075059

>>14073640
God could prevent evil, he could do anything he wants. God is the creator of evil, he doesnt let evil happen, he makes it happen. you know why? because earth isnt heaven you fucking retard cock sucker faggots. how does god find out who gets to go to heaven? everyone will act the same in a world where there is only good, it takes strength to be good in a world of evil. god already knew what you were going to do but i guess its just fun to watch it happen.

also fuck all of you atheist nigger faggots that havent even seen a bible in their life and think they know about christianity

>> No.14075066
File: 201 KB, 1429x810, 2019-07-26_04-01-26.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14075066

because man has free will
>why do we have free will then?
because God wants our love to be genuine

>> No.14075215

>>14074327
>It has never been answered by any theologian or philosopher.
It has by Hindu thinkers

>> No.14075222

>>14074292
>>14074338
No you are ignoring the fact that he gave Man the agency to do evil and focusing on the love part.

>> No.14075231

>>14075042
You did refute the argument just re-stated your arrogance that I've already seen in this thread

>> No.14075240

>>14075066
>because God wants our love to be genuine
creepy

>> No.14075255

>>14073640
>Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
This is precisely where your reasoning fails. Positive exists only relative to negative; evil exists relative to good. If it weren't for the existence of suffering there would be no value and no meaning in anything.

>> No.14075262

>>14073640
Why are atheists refusing to read even the most basic theology? Like, literally this "problem" is discussed in thousands of theological texts

>> No.14075276

>>14075240
when you have a child of your own you will understand

>> No.14075280

>>14075255
>Positive exists only relative to negative; evil exists relative to good.

Because God made it so.

>>14075262
Three people have said this already in the thread. Arrogance is not a solution. I hope you know that.

>> No.14075291

>>14075276
god isn't a person

>> No.14075298

>>14075262
How about the problem of your being polytheists?

Why can't Christians count?

>> No.14075302

>>14075291
God is actually three persons

>> No.14075342

Because he loves us, the particular creatures of this world. If he had made a different world, he would have had different creatures. Instead he chooses to love us into being.For the sake of our world and the creations in it, he allows the evils this world's creation entails. Since it is always better to be than not, for the creatures which God creates, God's judgement in creating the world is correct. It is a mark of the perfection of the divine love that God loves and wills even the imperfect for what perfection they have.

Insofar as the Problem of Evil is an attempt to show God's attributes inconsistent with the world, it is a failure. The more interesting problem is how despite the evil in the world, men are to be reconciled to God, and that is what Christianity addresses- how the imperfect, while their existence is justified, may yet be made perfect, and capable of the highest good.

>> No.14075376

>>14073661
> "Evil" doesn't exist. There is only obedience or disobedience to God's will. The rest is not for us to understand (see Augustine on the beach).
Tell this to an amputated child for whom no god will ever do shit.

>> No.14075381

>>14075342
Love =/= permisiveness.

Its just toxic love. He always thinks he knows whats best for us, not even actually listening to us if that's what we really want.

>> No.14075397

>>14075302
No Christiand don't believe God is three people. I'm done replying to you man.
>>14075342
God created evil because he loves us, that's not an answer.

>> No.14075411

>>14075397
Do you know what the Holy Trinity is?

>> No.14075422

>>14075411
NOT PEOPLE. Im done replying to you man

>> No.14075433

>>14075381

Love is the will of the good of the beloved, which means willing the being of the beloved. God's love is not just a negative permissiveness, but a positive willing us to be. It's the same will-towards-being which undergirds creation, judgement, salvation, Heaven and Hell.

And of course God does know what's best for us, as well as what we really want. There is no depth of the self which does not have its uttermost source in him. The modern is taught to construct his sense of self only out of the most transitory and trivial parts of himself- his moment-to-moment wishes, his shallow subjectivity. Why should God's will for your good be bound by such limitations?

>> No.14075444

>>14075433
>God does know what's best for us

Like give children cancer right

>> No.14075445

>>14075397

>God created evil because he loves us, that's not an answer.

Sure it is. It explains the reason why he allows evil- it is for our sake, and that of our fellow-creatures, in a way which is consistent with his divine character.

>> No.14075450

>>14075422
>The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold")[1] holds that God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantial persons
???

>> No.14075452

>>14074400
If we did not feel suffering and pain, we wouldn’t know what is “good” for us.

>> No.14075453

Trilemma is a fallacious argument. Is a parent who only spoils the child a good parent? Or is a parent who exposes the child to equal amount of adversity and love a better one?

>> No.14075454

>>14073661
>Claims to be the ultimate authority in ethics and morality
LMAO dude, might makes right, you just gotta submit to a tyrant

>> No.14075455

>>14075444

He allows this, yes. A world where children were immune to all serious disease would be a very different world, with very different creatures. If God loves us, and even the children who suffer, he will allow a world where such evils take place.

>> No.14075479

>>14074414
Desu, reading Kierkegaard solidified my disbelief in a theistic god

>> No.14075483

>>14075444
Who’s to say that suffering doesn’t hold meaning? If a child didn’t get cancer, that child may not come to have a strong will, and accomplish greater things in life, if there was no cancer to be cured, no one would use the gift of their minds to solve an insurmountable problem and bring good to other humans.

>> No.14075485

>>14074620
I think it boils down what "all powerful" means. If god is all powerful in material sense - he has power to shape all *events* as well matter, but has *no* power over causality and propositional logic. Meaning god can't make 1+1=3. His only power is have a free choice of those numbers (can arbitrarily edit reality), but the reality still has to be self-consistent. In purely formal sense, god is all powerful to an extent we can understand it, but is not all powerful above that in order to just incongruence of "good can exist without evil", or 1+1=3.

I'm not all that sold on theological argument, but it's the exact same thing if universe were a simulation. Sure that whoever runs the simulation are all powerful from our perspective, however there are still rules to abide by for the simulation to make sense at all. The argument then boils down to whether this inherent limit downgrades our creator's (if there is one) "godliness".

>> No.14075486

@14075298
>I’m going to deliberately not understand the trinity
please dilate

>> No.14075488

>>14074493
How can you disbelieve the words of L Ron Hubbard if you haven't done any high level auditing. You night know about our religion, but you've never truly experienced it or even charitably entertained it

>> No.14075521

>>14075455
>If God loves us, and even the children who suffer, he will allow a world where such evils take place.
Why? That's illogical.
>>14075483
Such a theodicy is the biggest scapegoat, you can literally transmute ANYTHING into 'the greater good'

>> No.14075543

>>14073678
>Tfw you know a decent amount of French and actually understand this
Pretty neat.

>> No.14075585

>>14074501
Pretty good analysis.

>> No.14075762

>>14075521
>you can literally transmute ANYTHING into 'the greater good'
would god allow something to happen if it didnt contribute to the greater good?

>> No.14075779
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14075779

>be aethiest
>"there is no Good and Evil"
>"wtf bro why doesnt God stop all this evil we keep saying doesnt exist?"

>> No.14075792

@_____486
>I’m going to avoid the question and deliberately slander you.

Yawn.jpg

>> No.14075803

>>14075483
Then you check on the news and see outside of ameriland the families of these kids actually cry every day because their shitty health insurance cant afford any of their needed medication you wanna know why?

well because gods willingness for us to be as corrupts as we can be without caring how this intercedes in the lives of other people.

>> No.14075824

>>14075433
>>14075342
>>14075023
>>14074907


Wow you people seriously need to get out of your bubble world ASAP.

You dont even know shit about real suffering out there yet you talk like everyone has access to internet and can type on an anonymous imageboard freely without having to care for starvation and abandoning, being constantly harassed by delincuential groups and drug dealers.

You need to live 1 single day in the shoes of an african child, a mexican woman,a brasilian inside the favelas and see the REAL WORLD in which you live in, far from the commodity of your room, then you can actually give a more humanitarian answer other than hurr durr its for a greater reason although i dunno which one

>> No.14075841

>>14075483
>Who’s to say that suffering doesn’t hold meaning?
If god were omnipotent he could have created a universe in which the same ends achieved by suffering were achieved without it, ergo god is either not omnipotent or he intentionally causes needless suffering.

>> No.14075868

>>14075483
This suffering he constantly allows and even promotes causes segregation and violence between humans.

>> No.14075975
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14075975

>>14075779
>i-if you question my stance on good and evil that means you believe in them! checkmate atheists

>> No.14075983

>>14073640
BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROBLEM, YOU FUCKING PUSSIES JUST DON'T GET IT

>> No.14076006

>>14075824

If I were actually in danger the whys and wherefores of suffering wouldn't matter as much. My attention would be on earthly relief, and if that cannot be had, on ultimate salvation and justice, of which there is no hope without the good God of the scriptures. The humanitarian answer addresses the practical reality of suffering, on an earthly and an eternal level, which I do in my local environment and the church in general does on a massive scale.

Given that I have the relative luxury to reflect, however, and I find that the world is still consistent with the love of God, why should I not take the answer which presents itself?

You strike me as the one in the bubble. Comfortable enough not to need God, entitled enough to whine and be offended at God on others' behalf, hopeful enough to believe in merely worldly solutions.

>> No.14076018

>>14075824
This projection. The people who most ardently taught and believed these doctrines experienced suffering you cant even imagine

>> No.14076025

>>14076018
I actually can imagine it. And millions of others experienced worse.

>> No.14076034

>>14073640
He is both capable and willing
>malevolent
wrong He offers eternal life, where there is no suffering. All suffering on thus earth is temporary.

>> No.14076043

>>14076034
He also offers eternal torment.

>> No.14076115

>>14075240
No, it's not. Things have to be genuine because then... you know, that's just slavery. Free will and suffering is necessary for us to have genuine emotions and decisions. It's very basic philosophy.

>> No.14076119

>>14075485
Huh, sounds interesting. Got anything to read on this kind of idea?

>> No.14076133

>>14076115
Why do we need genuine emotions and decisions

>> No.14076141

>>14076119
This is OC sperg, but there's a related concept in stemfag theories of cosmology and computability. Our universe supports only certain kinds of computing machines - turing machine, and quantum turing machine. These modes form a hiearchy - you can't make QTM from a TM no matter what you do. The theory goes that there are superior modes of computation above us, perhaps ones where 1+1=3 indeed, and it's completely beyond our comprehension. Just like a TM can't simulate QTM. This can be directly translated into theology: The rules of reason don't apply to whoever created our universe, as our universe "logic" is mere subset of what they can do. If that were the case, the trilemma could possibly work then to limited extent: That god is a jerk, and wants us to suffer for no good reason from his perspective.

>> No.14076146

>>14073640

Disregarding the awful Logic, a daisy chain of quips, and the fact that it is an excerpt out of context, the second question in particular is utterly moronic. A God allowing all things, absolutely, good and bad, allowing free will of Man therein, allowing true dignity in true accountability and true consequence; this is not only technically good, but the Good.

>> No.14076172

>>14073640
>Why have Christians fundamentally failed to answer the problem of evil?
It's litteraly the only religions which starts having answered it. You don't know shit about what you mean to attack.

>> No.14076204

>>14076133
Because it's what makes us human! If we didn't have emotions and intelligent decisions then we would be animals! This is basic, basic philosophy, you don't even need to read a book to figure this out. And you can argue the humans are animals angle all you like, there is a clear separation between humans and every other living creature in existence.

>> No.14076257

If anybody sees the tripfag Wolfshiem can you let him know that kiwi bro from /pol/ wants to know how he's doing?

My hard drive died so I lost his email, and I know he posts in /lit/, typically in Catholic literature threads.

>> No.14076877

How do I make space for reading the Bible daily in my full time-table to not make it feel like a chore?

I have a lot of readings for school and I always have one book that I'm reading every day. Like this I don't have the space for reading and studying such a book. How did you find the room for it in your day?

>> No.14076923

>>14076204
God could have made us any other way though

>> No.14076955

>>14075444

"What doth he know that had not been tried?
A man that hath much experience shall think of many
things, and he that hath learned many things shall
show forth understanding." (Eccl. xxxiv. 9.) They
who live in prosperity, and have no experience of
adversity, know nothing of the state of their souls. In
the first place, tribulation opens the eyes which pros
perity had kept shut. St. Paul remained blind after
Jesus Christ appeared to him, and, during his blindness,
he perceived the errors in which he lived. During his
imprisonment in Babylon, King Man asses had recourse
to God, was convinced of the malice of his sins, and
did penance for them. "And after that he was in
distress he prayed to the Lord his God, and did penance
exceedingly before the God of his fathers." (2 Paral.
xxxiii. 12.) The prodigal, when he found himself
under the necessity of feeding swine, and afflicted with
hunger, exclaimed : " I will arise and go to my father."
(Luke xv. 18.)

Secondly, tribulation takes from our hearts all affec
tions to earthly things. When a mother wishes to
wean her infant she puts gall on the paps, to excite his
disgust, and induce him to take better food. God
treats us in a similar manner : to detach us from
temporal goods, he mingles them with gall, that by
tasting its bitterness, we may conceive a dislike for
them, and place our affections on the things of Heaven.
" God," says St. Augustine, " mingles bitterness with
earthly pleasures, that we may seek another felicity,
whose sweetness does not deceive." (Ser. xxix., de Verb.
Dom.)

Thirdly, they who live in prosperity are molested by
many temptations of pride , of vain-glory ; of desires of
acquiring greater wealth, great honours, and greater plea
sures. Tribulations free us from these temptations, and
make us humble and content in the state in which the
Lord has placed us. Hence the Apostle says : " We are
chastised by the Lord that we may not be condemned
with this world." (1 Cor. xi. 32.)

2. Fourthly, by tribulation we atone for the sins we
have committed much better than by voluntary works
of penance. " Be assured," says St. Augustine, " that
God is a physician, and that tribulation is a salutary
medicine." Oh ! how great is the efficacy of tribulation
in healing the wounds caused by our sins ! Hence, the
same saint rebukes the sinner who complains of God
for sending him tribulations. " Why," he says, " do
you complain ? What you suffer is a remedy, not a
punishment." (In Ps. lv.) Job called those happy men
whom God corrects by tribulation ; because he heals
them with the very hands with which he strikes and
wounds them. "Blessed is the man whom God cor-
recteth. . . . For he woundeth and cureth. He striketh,
and his hand shall heal." (Job v. 17, 18.) Hence, St.
Paul gloried in his tribulations : " Gloriamur in tribu-
lationibus." (Rom. v. 3.)