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14005984 No.14005984 [Reply] [Original]

Plotinus is a stealth dualist

>> No.14005994
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14005994

Yes, so is Proclus. Stay tuned

>> No.14006306

>>14005994
based anon, i look forward to it. someone copy it in case i miss it.

>>14005984
care to extrapolate?

>> No.14006319

>>14006306
repeatedly struggles to make any sense of matter in his system - matter is an infinitesimal empty vessel which receives shapes and qualities from the one, but where does matter itself come from? if it comes from the one, why does the one (absolute good) generate matter (which plotinus generally writes about as if it were antithetical to the one) a dualistic explanation makes much more sense. i would have to dig my notes out, but there are some specific passages in the enneads where you can just TELL plotinus is practically writing in terms of a dualistic cosmology and then he generally will try and reframe everything in terms of the one in a later treatise (often reiterating his core arguments for the one which don't really make logical sense unless you presuppose the one in the first place).

>> No.14006326
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14006326

>>14006319
>if it comes from the one, why does the one (absolute good) generate matter

superabundance. creation is the natural consequence of an infinity "be-ing". this has been answered.

he just hadn't solved the problem of evil yet because he didn't have the correct analogy with which to express the ineffable: pic related.

>> No.14006343

do you think it's a COINCIDENCE that so many neoplatonists took to some new martyr cult of the hellenized jews? no.

>> No.14006353

>>14006319
it comes from nature, which is an illusion, false;
''your barbaric hand only crafts evil, amuses itself with evil, therefore: would i love a mother like this? No: I will imitate her; she does want so, but I will do it hating her''

>> No.14006363

>>14006326
it's even worse that divine fullness should include evil or at least the propensity for evil

>> No.14006366

>>14006326
ok i dug out my notes. first important passage is in 5.7 - On Whether There are Ideas of Individuals
'only ugliness should be attributed to matter'
'in cases in which there are no differences, there is one expressed principle. But if this is so, then the number of expressed principles does not correspond to the number of individuals. But they are as many as different individuals where the differences do not occur by a defect in form.'

if matter is UNIQUELY CAPABLE of existing in a form other than that imposed upon it by the one (an ugly form, a defective form), then how can this quality of matter be predicated upon the One? If matter can resist the One, matter can't be wholly an emanation of the One.

>> No.14006379
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14006379

>>14006363
not really. especially if you consider that evil is a mortal adjective, probably misapplied to perfect and good and unknowable divine end.

>>14006366
looking at that passage now.

>Only ugliness is to be attributed to the influence of matter, and even there the perfect forming principles are present, hidden but given as wholes.
Pretty much with the above.

>> No.14006385

*consistent with

I doubt he's saying that all matter is outside of the category of beauty, or that because it is a part of the One that it must necessarily share in that quality. I don't believe matter is resisting the one in this case, but rather man's perception and judgment of that matter is influencing his opinion of the One.

>> No.14006397

>>14006379
>not really. especially if you consider that evil is a mortal adjective, probably misapplied to perfect and good and unknowable divine end.


maybe, but then the problem of evil becomes the problem of whatever it is we subjectivize as evil, or I should say, THAT we subjectivize it as evil

>> No.14006398

>>14006379
when you are proposing that reality itself is the product of a transcendent Good then how can you simultaneously argue that the transcendent Good is being impeded within that reality? What impedes it? It must be that there is another force at work (and we are dealing with a dualistic system). Aquinas' argument rests on the presupposition that 'nothing can be cause inasmuch as it is being, and every being, as such, is good' which is the exact proposition under questioning here, so the argument is not valid.

>>14006385
>I don't believe matter is resisting the one in this case, but rather man's perception and judgment of that matter is influencing his opinion of the One.
It doesnt seem to be what Plotinus is arguing

>> No.14006416

>>14006397
Yup. Which is of course very unnatural: how could (for example) cases of horrible torture upon innocents not be evil? Who dares call it good? The answer is in Job. It's not an easy pill to swallow, especially given that this is now in the realm of revealed wisdom and religious belief is always fundamentally a large social endeavor and not living philosophy passing between two reasonable speakers.

>> No.14006430

>>14005984
I get the sense that he was attempting to formulate a monism or non-dualism, but couldn't work out the exact details and so certain aspects of it seem dualistic in retrospect. Throughout the Enneads he writes both of the soul returning to the realm of the ideas but he also writes about complete henosis with the One where there is no difference from It left. He never solidly comes down on one side or the other about which is the ultimate aim of man, I can't think of any reason why he would have written the stuff about a complete henosis with the One if he was a dualist though.

>> No.14006437
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14006437

>>14006398
>then how can you simultaneously argue that the transcendent Good is being impeded
It is not being impeded. It is functioning normally, although to our eyes it is unfair and cruel and malfunctioning. That's only because we're flesh. The final cause of creation (Omega) is being served, even in what we call evil.

>It doesnt seem to be what Plotinus is arguing
Agreed. He said "even there the perfect forming principles are present." As I am suggesting.

>> No.14006445

>>14006437
>The final cause of creation (Omega) is being served, even in what we call evil.

How can you be so sure? How could this not encourage a spiritual complacency?

>> No.14006448

>>14005984
Read Iamblichus

>> No.14006449

>>14006398
Does Plotinus actually say that the transcendent good or the One is being impeded though, or does he attribute the problem to something that comes from the One also? Just because something that comes from the One appears to us human beings as causing uglyness/evil in the form of matter and embodiment etc, that doens't mean that the One itself is affected or impeded in any negative way. Is the sun impeded by the sunlight that it emits from itself?

>> No.14006456

>>14006449
But the problem is always THAT there is an impediment, at all. It isn't a problem for the sun because no one's saying the sun is the first and final cause of all existence

>> No.14006471

THE ONE DOES NOT PRODUCE, ORIGINATE NOR CREATE ANYTHING; IT REMAINS IMPASSIVE IN ITS INDESCRIBABLY PERFECT ONENESS.

THE DIALECTIC IS BASED ON THE MODE OF SACRIFICE: WHICH IMITATES TRADITIONAL COSMOGONY; DISMEMBERMENT OF OSIRIS, PURUSHA, DIONYSIUS.
THEREFORE DIVISION, DUALITY IS RELATED TO DEMIURGY, MANIFESTATION, ONTOLOGICAL PLURALIZATION.

>> No.14006473

>>14006445
Faith. If nothing else, faith in the consistency of his teachings with the best attempts at understanding the divine we as a species have been able to muster.

>How could this not encourage a spiritual complacency?
It DOES. Just look at the Protestants who depend on infinite mercy and persist in error because just believe bro. Or even Catholics who say "God's mercy is infinite therefore Hell is empty therefore I can do whatever I want." This is why faith is one of the theological virtues, along with hope and charity. Because the interior life is a foretaste of the eternal life. I may be mistaken but henosis may be another term for being on (at-one-ment, as Campbell said) with the Father through Christ. That is, enjoying the beatific vision. What happens then? I don't know. But souls exist, and everything I know and trust says they eventually go to the top.

>> No.14006477

>>14006449
specifically he is saying that there are times when one expressed principle is responsible for multiple objects, even though there are cases where these multiple objects appear to be different. he attributes the difference in these cases to a flaw in matter, an inability in the matter to properly receive the form impressed upon it by the one. why is matter unable to receive the form in these cases? from where does the matter gain the quality that allows it to reproduce the form it receives imperfectly?

>> No.14006480

>>14006471
go on...

>>14006473
Fair enough, good post.

>> No.14006513

>>14006480
Thanks. Incidentally that complacency you mentioned is accounted for from earliest times, just ~3-4 decades after Christ's death. Catholics believe in a universal call to holiness, but it is evident (in my experience and others I'm sure) that not everyone has ears to hear but that is correctable with a little humility. The lessons aren't actually complicated.

Romans 11:32
>For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all.

1 Thessalonians 4:8
>Consequently the one who rejects this is not rejecting human authority but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

>> No.14006516

>>14006471
Please go on. I want to hear about archons. (Seriously.)

>> No.14006528

>>14006477
While Plotinus may not have worked out a good answer to that, I feel like that is an extremely tenous basis on which to assert that he was a dualist, especially as he explicitly writes in multiple Ennead passages, both speaking generally and about his own experiences, that the soul is able to achieve a complete henosis with the One to the point of there being no distinction between them left; which is completely incompatible with dualism.

>> No.14006557

>>14006528
im talking about cosmological dualism

>> No.14006573

>>14006557
Systems which include a dualistic cosmos that ultimately returns to or resolves into a transcedent One are in the final analysis not Dualism and should not be referred to as such to avoid confusion, IMO.

>> No.14006581
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14006581

>>14006456
just find it serendipitous that ol' boy in other thread is saying just that: >>14006085

>>14006477
>there are times when one expressed principle is responsible for multiple objects, even though there are cases where these multiple objects appear to be different
This is evident, I think. Pic related. Or, for the daring, the phenomenon of transubstantiation.

>he attributes the difference in these cases to a flaw in matter, an inability in the matter to properly receive the form impressed upon it by the one.
Which passage is this? I'm curious. How does Plotinus *know* there is an error, a failure in fidelity towards a form, if the error occurred before that form was expressed in the world of the sense? It seems like another case of man passing judgment on the divine. A frequent occurrence in antiquity I'm sure.

>> No.14006595

>>14006573
the soul's ability to achieve henosis with the one does not preclude the existence of an entity that opposes the one

>> No.14006606

>>14006581
see >>14006366

>> No.14006610

Why do these random philosophers suddenly get shilled every few months nonstop? I haven’t seen a Plotinus post ever and now there’s like 6 so far today. The same with Whitehead. A few weeks from now Aquinas and Spinoza will be shilled

>> No.14006684

the Stoics solved the problem of evil before Plotinus was even born, can we move on from this already

>> No.14006748

>>14006595
Does Plotinus ever say that matter is actually an opposing entity though? I have yet to see any proof or quotations demonstrating that he does. If you can provide them I would be curious to see them.

>> No.14006762

>>14006610
i think its called "socializing"

>> No.14006782

>>14006748

I think most would agree that the status of matter in his system is fairly ambiguous. Or at least ambiguously Gnostic enough that Iamblichus was interested in mounting a defense of nature, against the crypto-gnostics like Plotinus