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/lit/ - Literature


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13973924 No.13973924 [Reply] [Original]

> In his “Sobre el Vathek de William Beckford [On William Beckford’s Vathek]” (1943), Jorge Luis Borges (1899–1986) paradoxically claims ‘[e]l original es infiel a la traducción [the original is unfaithful to the translation]’.1 With these seven words, Borges disrupts the very core of traditional Anglo-American translation studies: in a context where translations are generally regarded as secondary to their source texts (ST)—temporally, textually, and in statu —Borges affirms that a translation can assume an independent existence. A further implication of Borges’s (seemingly illogical) declaration is that, in some ways, the translation may be truer to the fundamental “spirit” of the original than the original itself.

(Campbell, Bryony. p. 1. "The Original is Unfaithful to the Translation: Towards Recognising Originality in Translation". The New Zealand Journal of Translation Studies. Vol 1. No 1. 2018.)
Link to the paper: https://ojs.victoria.ac.nz/neke/article/view/5158

> A good translation is always a re-creation in another language. That’s why I have such great admiration for Gregory Rabassa. [...] I think that my work has been completely re-created in English. There are parts of the book which are very difficult to follow literally. The impression one gets is that the translator read the book and then rewrote it from his recollections. That’s why I have such admiration for translators. They are intuitive rather than intellectual. Not only is what publishers pay them completely miserable, but they don’t see their work as literary creation. (Gabriel García Márquez with The Paris Review)

> García Márquez himself read One Hundred Years of Solitude in the Harper & Row edition and pronounced it better than his Spanish original,” Elie writes. “He called Rabassa ‘the best Latin American writer in the English language.’” (The Paris Review)

Link to article: https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2016/06/14/gregory-rabassa-1922-2016/


In this thread we talk about everything related to translating (in any language) literature:
Is "the original is unfaithful to the translation" ? What is your favorite translation?
What is the best translation?
Which translations surpass the original?
Which ones drastically change the original?

>> No.13973931

Please give me (you)s instead of OP thank you!

>> No.13973933 [DELETED] 

>>13973924
>two IQ 80 latinx don't care about how good or bad a translation is
hahaha

>> No.13973937 [DELETED] 

>>13973924
Yeah, but Borges also shat on translations he didn't like. If he were alive, he would've destroyed Wilson's version.

>> No.13973941

>>13973933
Supposedly latinx is pronounced latin-ecks and not latincks. Is this true?

>> No.13973947 [DELETED] 

>>13973933
Borges actually care, though. And pretty sure he had genius level IQ. You don't understand what he's saying.

>> No.13973955 [DELETED] 

>>13973941
Latin Americans don't even use this nonsense so who cares.

>> No.13973957

>>13973941
la-TEEN-ecks, yeah. it's an ugly, stupid word that should never be pronounced out loud

>> No.13973962

>>13973941
it simply isn't pronounced and can't be, it's written only and doesn't make sense to say out loud
>>13973924
The best example of a creative reinterpretation of the original is probably Pope's Homer. It's not Homer, but god bless Pope for doing it.

>> No.13973964

>>13973941
Yes in the same way latino is pronounce la-teen-oh and latina is pronounced la-teen-ah. However just don't fucking use it

>> No.13973975 [DELETED] 

>>13973941
yes it's true
>>13973955
>>13973957
>>13973962
>>13973964
looks like i triggered some latinxs (latin-eks-es) ;)

>> No.13973987 [DELETED] 

>>13973975
kys

>> No.13973993 [DELETED] 

>>13973924
>in some ways, the translation may be truer to the fundamental “spirit” of the original than the original itself.
Key word: "may". Not necessarily every translation achives it.

>> No.13973996

>can't figure out roots and just say "latin"
>want to be in charge of reshaping language

>> No.13974083

>>13973924
One of the favorite topics for Borges to discuss is that of translations. He has at least one essay on the topic (Los traductores de las 1001 noches). With that in mind, it is well know that Borges was these three things: a wannabe nationalist (He felt he didn't belong to any nation, but craved for feeling Argentinian), a snob, and a shitposter. In many of his works he supports the idea of meaning getting lost through translation, particularly in languages with unique characteristics and literature, such as Persian and Chinese. He advocates for this thesis in the same way he describes most of his snobish fictional authors (for example, Pierre Menard): advocating for the opposite of his true belief. This also guarantees that he will a) get praised by his snob contemporaries, who will laud anything that says Spanish or English or French or whatever European language is a top tier language and b) give him a feeling of European or Argentinian identity, whichever the case is for the moment.

>> No.13974092 [DELETED] 

>>13974083
shit take

>> No.13974114

>>13973924
Portugal, and specially Brazil, have great schools of literary translators.

Feliciano do Castilho produced incredible versions of Virgil and Goethe.

Odorico Mendes has the best Homer I've ever read, Chapman included.

Haroldo de Campos was one of the greatest modern translators. I've heard Umberto Eco admired his translations very much. His brother Augusto was also famous in that regard. Both were often praised by Octávio Paz.

Other great translators include Guilherme de Almeida, Manuel Bandeira, Fernando Pessoa. We have complete, metrical versions of Milton, Chaucer, and many other poets. There's even a guy currently working on translating one of Byron's epics.

Among English translators, I like Lattimore a lot. And Ezra Pound, of course.

>> No.13974128 [DELETED] 

>>13974114
I wish I could love Brazil but I can't. Too many niggers.

>> No.13974130

>>13973937
Why would he destroy the best translation?

>> No.13974131

>>13974114
I myself am a translator, by the way. Albeit a beginner, I intend to soon start working on larger pieces, starting with Marlowe's Dr. Faust, then moving on to Dante's Vita Nuova, then to some old epic/long poems. I have often toyed with the idea of translating At Swim-Two-Birds, which has never been translated into Portuguese.

>> No.13974138

>>13974131
I'm translating Sopholicus' De momentia lubricatium and Hazaroth Eshta Havi right now, having a lot of fun

>> No.13974147 [DELETED] 

>>13974130
He just would, trust me.

>> No.13974153

>>13973941
Latinum, anon. Latina if plural or feminine

>> No.13974157
File: 90 KB, 539x744, Screenshot_2019-10-11 Amazon com The Odyssey (9780393089059) Homer, Emily Wilson Books.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13974157

>>13974130
Her version strikes me as prosaic. It's not bad, just prosaic. There are many better translations.

Needless to say I have nothing against women translating great works. My first contact with French theater and Goethe's Faust happened when I was 14, through the versions of Jenny Klabin Segall, a Brazilian translator who had a gigantic mastery of Portuguese verse. Much better than Wilson.

>> No.13974176 [DELETED] 

>>13974157
Wilson's version is simply unnecessary, unimaginative and lacking literary quality.

>> No.13974186

>>13974138
Sounds like an exciting job.

Anyway, translating is only fun when you ignore fidelity and let yourself run free, which I do sometimes, but I usually try to keep close to the original sense.

Also, if it's prose, Google can make your job a lot easier, because it instantaneously translates words which otherwise you'd have to look at a dictionary. At first I was a little bit skeptical about this, but it really helps.

>> No.13974203

>>13974176
Agreed.

>sparkling water
>flood of tears
>fair wind
>starry sky
>destructive night

Just do it in prose, already!

>> No.13974206 [DELETED] 

>>13974114
do brazilians even read? whats the point of all those translations?

>> No.13974211 [DELETED] 

>>13974203
it's stacked prose, I think.

>> No.13974246

>>13974206
Brazil has more literature readers than most countries on Earth.

Our population is 210 million.

>> No.13974248 [DELETED] 

>>13974246
and what's the number of readers?

>> No.13974249 [DELETED] 
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13974249

>>13974206
you're a pseud dude, brazil has some highly intelligent people. do the masses read? no. just like the american masses don't read. but is there is small group of smart people who do read? yes. same as in the US. people who talk shit about brazil are some of the dumbest fucking people i've met. that country was nice as fuck until recently, JUST LIKE IN THE US. and some parts are still nice. in my opinion, brazil is basically an accelerated version of the US

>> No.13974269

>>13974248
No idea. 1-10 million?

>> No.13974275 [DELETED] 

>>13974249
2/3 of Brazil consists of nigger-blooded creatures, though. While only 1/10 of America is nigger.

>> No.13974279 [DELETED] 

>>13974275
wrong

>> No.13974283 [DELETED] 

>>13974279
cope

>> No.13974286 [DELETED] 
File: 90 KB, 720x700, iu.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13974286

>>13974275
yes and that's your future but worse, never forget ur country's biggest war was fought to help blacks ;) cucked much?

>> No.13974296 [DELETED] 

>>13974286
HAHAHA how many civil war white bois died for this? HAHAHA USA is a joke lmao

>> No.13974304 [DELETED] 
File: 121 KB, 900x900, 90394394399303.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13974304

>>13974286
It's expected that the nigger population in America won't grow significantly over the following decades. Hispanic population is the one that will grow. You are thinking England or France, countries which are being invaded by packs of niggers every year.

>> No.13974308 [DELETED] 

>>13974304
>he doesn't know about the puerto ricans, cubans, dominicans with black roots
cope hahah

>> No.13974320 [DELETED] 

>>13974308
Those are nonentities and are counted as blacks in US population census. Stay mad, monkey.

>> No.13974342

>>13974304
That graph since to use the assumption that the rate of increase of Hispanic population in the US will not dwindle over time. Yet this has already started.

>> No.13974344

>>13974275
>>13974304
>>13974320
>>>/pol/

>> No.13974358 [DELETED] 

>>13974344
t. coping nigger

>> No.13974364

Your pic is entirely unrelated to your post

>> No.13974366 [DELETED] 

>>13974364
best post

>> No.13974611

>>13974249
Stop deluding yourself, brazuca. We all know Brazil it's just a giant favela.