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/lit/ - Literature

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1396121 No.1396121 [Reply] [Original]

I'm coming to this board because I suspect, for obvious reasons, you will be the most well-read anons anywhere on this site. Sorry if it seems like I'm bringing cancer with me, but I'm not trolling. I'm interested in a real, level-headed discussion, and I thought I stood a better chance of this here than anywhere else.

I think I've been spending too much time on /r9k/ recently, because the misogyny is starting to wear me down. So my question is, intelligent /lit/eratis, is there any evidence to suggest this whole "women are inferior" mentality is justified? Or is it, as I suspect, the delusions of a bunch of bitter virgins?

I'd be very interested in any recommendations for further reading on this issue, as well.

>> No.1396135

No opinions, then?

>> No.1396145

>>1396135
it's a slow board you freaking dummy. come back in a few hours. actually come back never because this thread sucks

>> No.1396147

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

>> No.1396165

>>1396147
that's some very interesting stuff. much better written than the average justifications i've heard, certainly.
>>1396145
i'm sorry, like i said, i don't usually post here so i didn't realize how slow the board is.

>> No.1396169

>is there any evidence to suggest this whole "women are inferior" mentality is justified?

I don't think so. Most people are retarded, but with male friends you don't care cause you aren't trying to fuck.

>> No.1396166

/lit/ is just as misogynistic as any other board, OP. Try and mention a female writer and they shit themselves in rage.

>> No.1396171

inb4 Schopenhauer

>> No.1396177

I'm still confused about the mass hatred/fear of women on 4chan. They're just people, you guys. I feel like it's the whole pussy on a pedestal thing, which leads to disappointment, then to rage.

>> No.1396178
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1396178

must-read

>> No.1396185

What the fuck do you have against virgins OP? I'm not a goddamn misogynist. Fuck you

>> No.1396190

>>1396185
He said bitter virgins. If you aren't bitter, I suppose it doesn't apply to you.

>> No.1396191

Sometimes I wish I could go and give all the misogynists from 4chan a hug. But then they'd probably just call me a slut.

>> No.1396192

Alright OP I'll paraphrase a little conversation I had with a girl just a couple of days ago.

Me: So why do girls like assholes?
Her: For me it's because I like to be put in my place, told to cook and clean and stuff like that.

So there you fucking have it. Women WANT to be hated, women WANT to be told what to do because they are incapable of doing it for themselves.

>> No.1396195

Women are different. It's easy to infer a superior and an inferior role between two substantially different groups. Men will tend to assume women's differences make them inferior, women will tend to assume men's differences make them inferior. Neither or both may be correct.

The only clear truth is that homosexuals of either sex are better than heterosexuals of either sex.

>> No.1396198

>>1396192
So you're basing your opinion of half the human race on one conversation? One person's opinion does not represent the opinion of the whole

>> No.1396202

>>1396192
Here you go OP. Now you should feel like you're back at home, in /r9k/.

>> No.1396205

Be prepared for incoming shitstorm, OP. /lit/ hates women just as much as /r9k/, if not more.

>> No.1396207

Some people feel that whites are superior to blacks. I guess it's because they are jealous of the hot black babes who don't want to have sex w/ them? Because blacks have larger penises??

>> No.1396211

>intelligent
>/lit/

oh boy are you gonna be disappointed.

>> No.1396212

The qualities that women value are not quite the same as the ones men value. Analytical thinking being more "male", which is a trait usually associated with intelligence.

So we think each other are stupid. Even though I recognize this, I can't help but feel a general dislike for the female thought process.

>> No.1396213

>>1396207
It's because niggers keep stealing all their white women.. sucks, man

>> No.1396216

>>1396212
You seriously think all women think the same?

>> No.1396220

>>1396216

No. Only generally similar within certain parameters.

I know that 4chan is a breeding ground for extreme positions, but I'm not trying to take one.

>> No.1396227

>>1396220
Well it's nice to see someone sensible exists here.

>> No.1396233

Women are kept inferior to men to increase fertility. The correlation of women with more rights bearing less children for example. Or the correlation of oppressed women in countries with high fertility rates.

Giving women more rights almost always leads to a decline in fertility. Our ancestors knew that and created traditional cultural norms to suppress women in order to keep fertility rates high.

If the industrial revolution had not happened I am almost certain that across the globe, women would still be considered inferior to women even in western countries. Due to the overpopulation happening across the globe due to the industrial revolution I am sure that in most places women will gain more rights.

>> No.1396239

>>1396192
>one girl I know likes assholes so every woman wants to be hated

But no, OP. I think misogyny, like misandry, is irrational. I think they stem from the same old place most prejudices come from; the fear of "the other". Because our society teaches us that men and women are so different from each other (which they aren't, in the end), when we have disappointing experiences, rather than thinking "that man/woman was an immature, stupid person" as we should, we think "men/women are immature, stupid people" and the opposite gender thus takes the role of the hated "others". Just like you might hate people of a certain race or nationality after you see one or two of that kind behaving badly.

Women, in the end, are people. They have a vagina, tits, different hormones and so on, but they have thoughts and feelings just like you do. There are differences, but they're hardly significant and do not seem to indicate either sex to be superior. Of course, 90% of both men and women are crappy people trying to live up to the social stereotypes of what men and women should be (resulting in insecure wannabe-machos and whiny bitches), but that's because those people are shit, not because of their gender. Like >>1396169 said, most people are retarded, but with your own gender you don't care because you don't have the Prince Charming or Perfect Girlfriend expectations.

You ask whether misogyny is irrational... well, think of those women who go on about how every man is a jerk and they all just want sex. Misogynists are just like misandrists, just genders reversed.

90% of people are crap, regardless of gender. Women are human beings, no more, no less. Now you can grow up and stop minding the 90% of bitches, that way you might actually notice some of the 10% gems.

>> No.1396241

yay, another misogyny thread. why do you have to bring this shit here, OP? i left /r9k/ to get away from it.

>> No.1396243

OP back again,
Wow. For a slow board you guys sure posted a lot in a few minutes! So I gather that /lit/ is also rife with misogyny/racism/trolling, according to
>>1396166
>>1396177
>>1396202
>>1396205
>>1396207
>>1396211
>>1396213
I'm genuinely surprised. I'm not quite sure why...maybe because, although I didn't expect /lit/ members to be more social than any other board, I sort of thought that reading a variety of books about different people and places might have a similar enlightening effect as actually knowing many different kinds of people, and that generally such people are less judgmental. But it seems I was wrong about that. I'm interested to see where this thread will go, though. You all at least sound more able to string together a sentence than the other boards.

>> No.1396248

>>1396243
The majority of /lit/ is trolls who don't even read. The few people who come on here and are also avid readers are decent though. But it's hard to them find amongst the people who think saying 'nigger' is the pinnacle of humor.

>> No.1396253

>>1396243
/lit/ is clearly trolling you. Go to sleep or read >>1396233 If you want a serious response.

>> No.1396254

OP again,
>>1396239
Thank you for the well-thought-out reply. This is sort of what I've always tried to believe, more or less, but hanging around 4chan for the last few years has started to erode this against my will. I am actually female, by the way.
>>1396241
I know, I'm sorry. I just needed to talk about this, and I knew the response I would get on /r9k/.

>> No.1396256

>>1396254
You might be more welcome here though, in the end. Are you a book person? /lit/ has a pretty decent sized female userbase, despite all the hate.

>> No.1396258

Ok what I gather from this thread as a passive observer: lots of people complaining about /lit/ being filled with misogynists, but very little actual misogyny. Maybe it's because the Americans are asleep?

>> No.1396263

>>1396258
Probably.

>> No.1396262

Good book about misogyny is "A Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Dystopic literature is fun stuff.

Women have a more subtle, less obvious impact on society. Their true power is probably in the family unit. Also better at analyzing the emotional complexities of an issue, but our society tends to underrate that ability...

Really, I think hatred of women just comes down to Freudian concepts, as cliche as it might be. Feelings of insecurity.

>> No.1396266

>>1396256
I like to read, and as a philosophy major, I do read quite a bit. My favorite authors are probably Raymond Chandler, Kurt Vonnegut, and Fyodor Dostoyevsky. I don't know if that's the sort of reading that /lit/ approves of, but so be it if it's not.

>> No.1396270

Of course there's evidence. There's always evidence for virtually anything large numbers of people have seriously held for long periods of time, except the stuff there can't be evidence about. But even there, people take their own inner experiences and project them on external events.


But the question isn't "is there evidence." The question is, "what to make of all the experiential and historical stuff we know about it."

So what do we know? We know that women were and are restricted and conditioned by society to behave certain ways, and not others, relative to men. We've seen women- plenty of women!- break out of those paradigms. Sometimes some of them, rarely all of them. We can see that this probably has no biological basis, because well, how much does? Evolution didn't prepare the human species, except by chance and us building our societies around what we have, to set up feudalism or capitalism, or develop notions of universal morality, or sit in traffic on the LA freeway, or blow ourselves up. All it did was make us extremely intelligent and extremely adaptable and pliable to our environment. Even the earliest settled humans would find all that entirely alien.

And then, non-chronologically, you've got societies where the positions of men and women are almost mirror images of how they are in the big, impressive cultures they bother mentioning in high school history class. We, humans, can be virtually anything. That's what's biological.

>> No.1396271

Everyone knows that men are better than women. If you are unable to realise that you're clearly an idiot.

>> No.1396272

>>1396266
You'd probably fit in well. Most of /lit/ approves of Dostoevsky if nothing else. And they secretly enjoy Vonnegut.

>> No.1396277

>>1396270


So what can you make of all this? Your choice. Some people would decide that women are inferior, because the ways they're socialized to behave are inferior. I don't think that's the case- it's definitely got its flaws, but the masculine way contains a hell of a lot of fucked up, destructive, nihilistic junk. The comeback would be that that doesn't matter, "there's no female Mozart because there's no female Jack the Ripper."

What I'd argue is that, in the end, most of the socialized differences don't matter, and the main of men and women both are decent people. Not superlative, but decent. The superlative people are the ones who fuck it all and go about the work of deciding who they will be themselves, taking the good where they find it and leaving the toxic, and being new, great people. I think almost everyone today has a bit of that in them, too. History is slow.

Plus, I don't know about anyone else here, but among awesome, impressive people I like, women have a slight but definite plurality.

>> No.1396278

>>1396262
>Women have a more subtle, less obvious impact on society. Their true power is probably in the family unit. Also better at analyzing the emotional complexities of an issue, but our society tends to underrate that ability...
Although this is true historically speaking, I just have to note that not every woman is family-oriented. There are many women who don't care about starting a family these days, even though many people still find this outlandish in our age.

Personally, I want to devote my life to science instead of giving birth, raising brats and whatever. I get a lot of hate for that, mostly from fellow women (as funny as it is).

>> No.1396283

>>1396192
>>1396233
>>1396271
oh boy here we go

>> No.1396289

>>1396283
You totally missed the point of >>1396233 It's clearly just supposed to be an explanation of why misogyny is so prevalent, not whatever dumb thing you were trying to interpret it as

>> No.1396291

>>1396283
Don't feed the troll, my fellow e/lit/ist.

>> No.1396293

>>1396272
That's good to hear. I think I may start spending more time here from now on.

(Oh, that's another trait /lit/ will probably approve of: I would never confuse the above instances of "hear" and "here.")

>> No.1396318

Secretly enjoy Vonnegut? Weird. I would've thought Vonnegut to be the writer most celebrated by e/lit/ists. Something about his ADD style of writing...

>> No.1396322

Women aren't usually as smart as men, there are exceptions but they're few and far between, and usually there's something else wrong with them psychologically then or they think they're really hot shit for being as smart as an average guy, like they should be treated special for being ordinary. OP, you sound like one of these types of women. You think you're smart because compared to other women, you are. But you are just average in the world of men, so you shouldn't think you've accomplished something amazing. Don't get a big head, there's nothing more unattractive in a woman. You'll end up alone, and be another man-hating feminist rationalizing her own failure as proof that men are "intimidated by your confidence." Just don't try to show men up, because you won't be able to, and it'll make you sound like a petulant child. Listen to what men have to say, and you might learn something.

>> No.1396328

>>1396166

This is true. But they deserve it. Women can't write worth a shit.

BAWW I'M DEPRESSED

>> No.1396330

>>1396322
Thank you for your wisdom, I'm sure you're just a god among men yourself. I'm so eager to learn from you, since you've clearly got my number. However could I have been such a fool? Oh right, because I'm a silly, empty-headed girl.
Jesus, do people really believe this shit?

>> No.1396331

>>1396322
Oh come on, you can troll better than that. You're in /lit/, for fuck's sake. 0/10

>> No.1396334

>>1396328
I'm an aspiring writer and everything I submit for publishing I write under a male pseudonym. I'm okay with people not liking my shit because it sucks, but I'm afraid there's still a real "women aren't real writers" bias out there that I don't want to take any chances with.

>> No.1396338

4chan is socially inept. I - you - them all are certainly no strangers.

It is a delusion, what they know is hatred and they seethe in it. Here or anywhere.

>> No.1396341

>>1396334
I'd personally go the first two initials and then last name route. There's definitely still loads of bias out there.

>> No.1396342

>>1396330
>>1396331
Oh yes, I must be a troll because I'm saying something negative about your precious feminist illusions. If you're a woman, I forgive you. I can understand why you would get upset to hear things like this, but the sooner you accept it the happier you'll be. If you're a man, I pity you. You've basically allowed our unnatural feminist society to neuter you. Hopefully one day you'll have had enough of this PC horseshit and wake up.

>> No.1396347

>>1396341
My initials sound feminine, believe it or not. I just call myself the masculine version of my own name. Admittedly not clever but it does the trick.

>> No.1396353

>>1396347
I'm blessed with a gender-neutral name, so I will hopefully be free of gender bias if I ever become a writer.

>> No.1396355

>>1396342
I'm not upset; I don't feel anything about your posts. That's why I'm disappointed, kid. The point of trolling is to incite rage, and you aren't even annoying me. You can do better, right? Put some effort into it.

>> No.1396358

There is no misogyny on 4chan, only virginity.

>> No.1396360

>>1396353
I hereby dub thee Lesley Spunkgobbler. I await your debut.

>> No.1396383
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1396383

Woman are inferior biologically, yes.

However, like children, I think it is necessary that their lives should be regarded as worth more than that of a man.

>> No.1396392

>>1396383
wat

>> No.1396397

I think women and men both have innate genetic abilities that predetermine their basic skills and abilities. Obvious example being physical strength and empathy; a man is typically physically strong than a woman, but less empathetic. Both have pros and cons.

I personally hate women just because they are soul sucking whores, but hey. What can ya do.

>> No.1396429

Men usually don't start attention whoring threads.

>> No.1396450

>>1396429
>man makes a thread complaining about his girlfriend, bitching about his life, asking for a pity party
>"yeah that's perfectly alright"
>woman makes thread about gender issues, eventually admits she's female
>"ATTENTION WHOOOOORE"

>> No.1396462

>>1396450
More so than that, though
>assume every poster who doesn't say they are a woman is a man; complain that all women are attention whores

>> No.1396473

>>1396450
no one will tell you tybrax isn't an attention whore

>> No.1396479

>>1396450
>>1396462
Yeah, no kidding. Ever been to /s/? Tons of threads of "Post your ex!" or "Here's naked pictures of my girlfriend, would you fuck her?" Hello? The pictures may not be of you, but that's attention whoring all the same! /adv/ is the worst though...

>> No.1396485

>>1396233

>Giving women more rights almost always leads to a decline in fertility

..No, it doesn't. Women who have more rights tend to live in developed countries. They choose to have fewer children because they work and have more hobbies and interests, have access to contraception, have higher child survival rates, and don't need to rely on their children to support them in old age. It's not that women in developed countries are TRYING to have a dozen children and failing due to poor fertility, it's that families in developed countries tend to regard two or three kids as the ideal. And it is- when the mother has rights and lives in a developed country, it's better to share the resources out between two or three kids who will almost certainly live long and healthy lives, than to struggle to look after a dozen children.

>> No.1396490

>>1396485
Actually it's better to have tons and tons of kids so your country can have a large population

>> No.1396495

>>1396479
At least it's not "That's right, I'm a girl AND I read books. Don't hit on me silly boys".

>> No.1396497

>>1396495
You do realize more women than men read books, right? It's not unusual at all. And I've never seen anything like what you just said happen on this board.

>> No.1396498

>>1396495
Haven't seen anyone see that, though, other than Sasha Grey if you count her.

>> No.1396500 [DELETED] 

>>1396490
I can't say I've ever seen that happen.

>> No.1396503

>>1396495
I can't say I've ever seen that happen on /lit/.

>> No.1396504

It's always funny to see a 20 year old proclaiming all this experience, considering most of them has only dealt with a handful of other 20 year old girls, and I do stress girls. I was in /b/ the other day and they had a thread about pretty women. Pic related was probably the oldest-looking one, it was all 15 year olds. Really? A fifteen year old is not an adult. A twenty year old is not an adult. It's rare to find twenty five year olds who are adult. You're basing your opinions on stupid kids being stupid.

not to mention perspective is everything. Let's say I got fired last week. I could sit here and fume about how unfair the boss is, how much more skilled I am then my co-workers, how shitty my life is, or I can assume I made a mistake or was no longer needed and I can be thankful for the experience that will help me get a new job.

meh...I dunno

>> No.1396505

>>1396495
we've agreed, that's attention whoring. but saying all women on here are attention whores is ignoring the very good point in >>1396462
that women who aren't "attention whores" dare not mention their gender, and as such are taken to be men. so probably a third to almost a half of the normal, reasonable, funny posters on here are women, but as soon as their gender is revealed, men can't see them as anything other than women first, people second.

>> No.1396509
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1396509

>>1396504
pic related, derp. It's early.

>> No.1396512

>>1396505
i once tried an experiment with that. i started a "post a funny story" thread on /b/, i did some mentioning i was a female and others saying i was male. sure enough, all the female posts got responses of "tits or gtfo", "stfu, women aren't funny", "attention whore", etc. and the male posts got "lol yeah man, totally" and "i lol'd" kind of posts. the only positive posts i got as a woman were from creepy white knights, "i love a girl with a sense of humor, wanna cyber" responses.
so...there you go. some more evidence of something obvious. yay!

>> No.1396514

>>1396505
this

>> No.1396517

>>1396490

Not when you start having more people than you can support and find roles for. Most developed countries already have a large population, and this can be sustained by a low birth rate since you can nearly guarantee that their two or three kids will live long and healthy lives. Beyond this, overpopulation is associated with a diminished quality of life, depleted resources, lower life expectancy, higher crime rates, etc. Having millions of extra children being born is not particularly useful to the country if they end up in ghettoes in overpopulated cities, and grow up unable to find work because there are high unemployment rates.

>> No.1396520

>>1396512
oh and btw the stories themselves weren't gender specific, they were mainly things like
>make omelet
>crack eggs into sink
>put shells into pan
>derp
so i don't think that affected how funny or unfunny they found it.

>> No.1396524
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1396524

>4chan made me misogynistic

>> No.1396542
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1396542

>>1396121
/lit/ is filled to the brim with dumbfucks, but they think that because they're on a board that talks about literature that makes them smart, so they become massive assholes to try and make themselves seem as if they actually are intelligent. So coming on /lit/ and asking for an intelligent discussion is like going on /d/ and not asking for any dickgirls. Just isn't going to happen. I mean I can understand why you would think this board is populated by the most intelligent of 4chans userbase. I mean it's a board about books how can it not be filled with smart people? Well if you have been on this board for a few hours you will see why. There are absolutely zero intelligent discussions and the cancer in other boards is present here(i.e. shitty greentext stories that have nothing to do with /lit/, rate my book threads, books that sound cool). I mean /lit/ HAD the potential to be great but there were so many douchebags that they "chased" away all the people who actually wanted to talk about books and people who weren't complete asshats just stopped coming to /lit/. The people who weren't the jerks also happened to be the people who didn't breath through their mouths. I also think that you are a faggot, but that's just because I think anyone who goes to another board and speaks about misogyny in a condescending tone is a automatic fag in my book.

>> No.1396548
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1396548

>>1396542
I like your reaction image

>> No.1396552

Women are not homogeneous. Same as guys, some are bad people and some aren't.

The fact that the phrase 'kissless virgin' originated from and is widely used in /r9k/ should make it obvious that, yes, it's just a lot of bitter virgins who presume all women are awful for reasons stemming from their own deficiencies, in that they don't actually talk to girls in real life and surround themselves with misogynists (/r9k) online, so there's some huge confirmation bias.

>> No.1396553

I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that overall, 4chan's population is mostly male, and mostly young and heterosexual men in their teens and early twenties. So, young and immature guys, dating young and immature girls, in relationships that are mostly going to fail thanks to BOTH people involved being young and still testing the waters. Or, young and immature guys trying to date young and immature girls, and failing to even get a date. Relationships are important to people, thus you end up with angry, bitter guys who would rather believe that women are all totally stupid and inferior and HE NEVER WANTED A GIRLFRIEND ANYWAY, remembering the worst parts of typical teenage relationships and forgetting that he was most likely just as bad from her perspective. A female 4chan would probably have just as many man-hating threads from angry, upset girls, asking why men are all so stupid, irrational, etc.

Fact is, most teenagers and young adults are not incredibly smart, mature, and level-headed people. Neither are most people full stop, regardless of age. This applies to giggling, shallow girls who would TOTALLY NEVER DATE ANONYMOUS BECAUSE HE IS TOO NICE/SMART/FUNNY FOR THEM, yes, but it also applies to thick-headed, grunting teenage boys who have never voluntarily picked up a book either. People are just going to judge by themselves, and forget that as a smart, literate, nerdy twenty year old, they're not completely representative of the male gender either, and they're probably overlooking all the passive-aggressive and moody shit they pulled while she was being temperamental and bitchy.

>> No.1396555
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1396555

>>1396548

Thanks, I like yours too.

>> No.1396557

>>1396553
This, this is what I wanted to say but couldn't put into words. Thank you Anon.