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13951102 No.13951102[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

What "dying for your sins" is supposed to mean?

>> No.13951197

>>13951102
Its really stupid and makes no sense when you think about it. Its just a massive guilt-trip.

>> No.13951237

>>13951102
>>13951197
Cringe. Brainlets.

>> No.13951257

You see, in ancient religious traditions, to get something from a God requires a sacrifice from your part.
Abrahamic religions think human beings entered into sin in the first generation with Adam and Eve dooming us all.
In Christian belief, Jesus the Son of God sacrificed himself in human form after experiencing human life. He accepted death as a sacrifice to save us from the pityful state we were in during the Old Testament times which Adam and Eve started. So after Jesus, if you accept what he did (dying for your sins) you are forgiven by god for having an imperfect evil ass.

>> No.13951258

>>13951237
>the system of belief spoken of by its creator as "simple" in which you're supposed to turn your brain off and eschew all intellectual inquiry, requires intellect to truly understand

Wrong

>> No.13951388

>>13951258
What the fuck are you even talking about? Go outside and get some fresh air, your left field dreck isn't even making sense

>> No.13951438

>>13951257
Are my other sins forgiven too or just the original sin?

>> No.13951458

>>13951257
So it is a voodoo tier sacrifice?

Actually blew my mind, I thought it was supposed to be something meaningful like how the concept of God/religion, which is what endocrinates people into maintaining society being destroyed due to decadency.

>> No.13951502

>>13951438
All your sins are derived from the first one, which is defined as turning away from God's will. It is not eating a stupid fruit that doomed humans, it is the fact that they deliberately did it while knowing it wasn't allowed by God.
It is symbolically inspired by Satan (supposedly the snake) brcause he was the first angel/God creation that used his free will to depart from God instead of helping him. So yea, all your sins are forgiven if you believe in Christ, because believing in him truly means that you start following all of God's commands again.

>> No.13951524

>>13951102
Read David Bentley hart's new book that all shall be saved. Even early Christians didn't believe jesus died for our sins

>> No.13951525

>>13951502
>it is the fact that they deliberately did it while knowing it wasn't allowed by God.

Wouldn't that imply prior knowledge of good and evil?

>> No.13951535
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13951535

>>13951524
>Even early Christians didn't believe jesus died for our sins

Which is why they were excommunicated as heretics

>> No.13951541

>>13951102
The Roman authorities executed Jesus, so his followers were forced to create a story about how that was always the plan. Since he wouldn't make a very great god if he could just be killed by mortal bureaucracy.

>> No.13951549

>>13951458
>the concept of God/religion, which is what endocrinates people into maintaining society being destroyed due to decadency.
Yeah, that is the correct social concept of God/Religion.(There is a personal concept too, in which God/Religion helps providimg definite answers to our deep questions and spiritual way of life to lower stress).

But OP was asking about the dying for your sins thing, which must be explained through the mindset of those ancient agricultural societies in which the only way to get anything from a God was to sacrifice something of equal or higher value. It is just our way of spiritualizing the inner tendency we have to negotiate with other humans as the social primates we evolved to be.

>> No.13951558

>>13951541
hmm, never heard this theory. Where can I read more?

>> No.13951559

>>13951102
God as a human tells the future of the soul. God became human and as human suffered the worst and died, but he revived. His resurrection that the souls who follow His way will live after death, just like He does.
God didn't really have to do this, he could condemn us all for eternity just as easily as he could make us diasppear; and that's why they say that He is the cause of our being and of any potency we may have.
He does this because of love, if he didn't, why would he sustain our being at all? As is obvious, we are finite and God is infinite. The distance between the finite and the infinite is infinite. God can't have a finite love for us for it wouldn't reach us. The love of God is proportional to the distance. Such infinite love was shown crossed an infinite distance and showed Him to us. God showed his love not pulling us up, but coming down as one of us, finite. The Absolute Love of God is such that for a brief moment -nothing to Him-, abandons His infinity just to show us that the righteous way is available to all. That He as a man overcame death and so can we, but only if we believe.
He died for our sins, anon

>> No.13951579

>>13951558
Oh, it's just what I believe, but I'm sure a decent scholarly case could be made. That is, it's what I came up with as the best solution to the exact question you're bringing up, that "it was the plan all along guys" is the sort of thing that would take a lot of narrative work to build to, and that work is never done. That as a story, its ending comes out of left field.

>> No.13951581

>>13951525
Not necessarily. They knew God didn't allow it. That is enough to disobey.

Imagine you have a 3 years old child. You can't explain the concept of electricity nor the pain of suffering an electric shock to him but you still tell him to stay away from the power current. Then he mischieavally approaches it anyway, so you punish him which makes him cry for what he feels is an eternity. To disobey you don't need any specific knowledge, just purposefully deny authority.

>> No.13951590

>>13951581
How should they know that disobedience is wrong, without the knowledge of good and evil?

>> No.13951603

>>13951535
No, literally no early Christians would have phrased the crucifixion as jesus dying for the sins of the world to appease the father

>> No.13951607

>>13951590
They did not need to know it was wrong. The fact that they couldn't just blindly follow an order from God proved that humans weren't of the necessary quality for the garden. So they were expelled to the trash world. Like when you throw away a machine that does not work properly.

>> No.13951611

>>13951590
Disobedience has nothing to do with good and evil, these are two seperate thing you're talking about.

>> No.13951614

>>13951257
>In Christian belief, Jesus the Son of God sacrificed himself in human form after experiencing human life. He accepted death as a sacrifice to save us from the pityful state we were in during the Old Testament times which Adam and Eve started.

Why did God have to do it this way then? Why couldn't he just be like "aight now your sins can be forgiven", and then send some prophet down and he'd let us know?


Also, how come God just changed his mind? If he is omnipotent, wouldn't he know the fact that the way of the New Testament would be more effective than the way of the Old Testament before he even created earth?

I am seriously curious about this. I am no Atheist, but neither a Christian. I just don't see how an almighty God could have been wrong in his ways, then realize, "oh shit this is the way to do it then."

>> No.13951617

>>13951581
You realize this idiotic theology of yours contradicts everything the rest of Christendom accepted as reasonable and true, right?

>> No.13951621

>>13951607
If Satan told them to do something, then should they obey him also? The stories make a lot more sense under a sovereign God.

>> No.13951626

The death of Christ has many facets to it. It means many different things. It's God's communication to us, and he's saying lots of different things to us. To understand what he is saying requires us to listen to him, which mean taking him seriously, receiving the apostolic witness and thinking long and hard about it. And he'll show you what it means. For example, just one facet: He completely subverted the sacrificial categories. You see normally in human societies, humans make a sacrifice to reconcile with their Gods. However, in this case, God made the sacrifice, so humans could be reconciled to him. Another is that it is his last and final word to the powers of the air, the spiritual forces of darkness that enslave humanity (if you don't even realise the truth of this statement yet you are literally a deaf dumb and blind creature with understanding and without hope), saying that humanity now belongs to God. Each of us connects with God through the word of his cross. Sin is slavery to evil habits. God's word to us through the cross is "you are forgiven. You are mine". God's word through the cross to the powers that enslave us is "hands off, these are mine". This is what dying for our sins means.

>> No.13951630

>>13951607
So God's a shit creator, then? Or how do you think it ended up that humans weren't good enough for the garden?

>> No.13951647

>Why did God have to do it this way then? Why couldn't he just be like "aight now your sins can be forgiven", and then send some prophet down and he'd let us know?

Lol that's basically what he did but the Jews and Romans conspired to kill him.

>> No.13951652

>>13951647
You somewhat miss my point. Why did he send down his own son? Why not just choose some jew, like one of the disciples for example?

>> No.13951669
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13951669

>>13951524
>David Bentley hart
Seriously Anon?

>> No.13951688
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13951688

>>13951652
A better question is wtf does it even mean for an omnipotent being to have an "only begotten son" when he could have however many he feels like. And secondly what was sacrificed? Jesus was promptly brought back to life.

>> No.13951715

>>13951652
He already tried previously multiple times, it didn't work, in fact Jesus meets his previous attempt; John.

>> No.13951717

>>13951614
God loves suffering, that's why his creation is full of it and he sent his Son to suffer horribly too

>> No.13951736

>>13951717
Unironically true. God is trying to experience and understand everything. That requires suffering as well as joy.

>> No.13951752

>>13951736
>. God is trying to experience and understand everything.

Only stoners believe this retarded newage crap

>> No.13951757

>>13951752
What do you think God is doing? Other than fulfilling his potential of being omnipotent and omniscient? God is trying to understand himself, in my opinion.

>> No.13951759

>>13951688
>when he could have however many he feels like
He can't, Jesus isn't reproducible, he's unique, one of a kind.

>> No.13951770

>>13951759
Are you saying there are limitations on God's capabilities?

>> No.13951775

>>13951759
Even if Jesus is unique, surely god could impregnate a woman by mystical means as he did with Mary.

>> No.13951786

>>13951757
If God lacks understanding of anything, including of himself, then he cannot, by definition, be omniscient.

>> No.13951803

>>13951786
God has always been omniscient, but this omniscience is fulfilled through the creation, which has also always existed.

>> No.13951806

An immortal human who chooses sin would just get worse and worse to the point of becoming an unspeakable monster, and only get worse from there, without limit. Death limits this process.

>> No.13951833

>>13951770

It's not about his capabilities, it's about his nature. Everything that God is, is in Jesus. All of the father's desires are fulfilled in the son. The son is the heart of the father. There can't be another Son because there isn't another father.

>> No.13951838
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13951838

>>13951833
Imagine thinking that a dead dude on a tree, a bird and an old man on a cloud represents the zenith of cosmology.

>> No.13951841

>>13951558
Look no further than boomer political idolatry in the modern day.

TRUST THE PLAN
US Military = Saviour of mankind
Q

>> No.13951845

>>13951838
>old man on a cloud
lmao atheists actually say this still?

>> No.13951867

>>13951838
What? Christian cosmology is bafflingly complex.

>> No.13951871

>>13951845
Then Solomon spoke: “The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud."


Also, protip: Atheists don't talk about "cosmology"

>> No.13951875

>>13951867
>What? Christian cosmology is bafflingly complex.

It would have to be, what with the self-contradiction of the trinity and whatnot

>> No.13951887

>>13951803
if creation always existed, why does God need to exist at all?

>> No.13951890

>>13951875
I'm being literal with the baffling part, they couldn't make their minds up on on exactly how many oceans there are, if paradise was heaven, the shape of the earth, etc.

>> No.13951898

>>13951890
You could read the Bible and come up with no less than several alternative cosmologies.

>> No.13951899

>>13951887
The creation exists through and for God, the Subject of it all. All understanding of existence is concentrated in God’s mind.

>> No.13951902

>>13951845
lmao Christians really haven't read their own holy book

>> No.13951906

>>13951899
God seems like an unnecessary step there, but okay

>> No.13951907
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13951907

>>13951871
>Also, protip: Atheists don't talk about "cosmology"

What the fuck are you talking about? That's all they ever talk about. How big the universe is and how that "proves" our existence is meaningless.

>> No.13951910

>>13951902
Reading =/= understanding

>> No.13951920

>>13951907
I'm distinguishing philosophical cosmology from astronomical cosmology. Atheists don't think the former is relevant.

>> No.13951937

>>13951838

You are actually brain dead. I mean that in the most loving way possible.

>> No.13951945

>>13951102

Paul's fever dreams.

>> No.13951946

>>13951937
>I mean that in the most loving way possible.

Well, that would be consistent with Christianity, to call threats, insults and abuse "loving".

>> No.13952170

>>13951899
This doesn't answer how or why God would need to understand anything, though.
>"God is trying to understand himself, in my opinion."
From what I understand, you're suggesting that creation is a mode of self-reflection on God's part. Self-reflection he does not need, because he already knows everything.

>> No.13953378

>>13951549
I'm OP

Still pretty disappointing how what Christians act all high and mighty is a pagan tier sacrifice

>> No.13953592

>>13951102
You see, some faggot cursed all his descendants with sin forever because he ate an apple, but then god got sick of sending everyone to hell eventually so he sent his own son to earth and tricked the devil into killing him, thus somehow exonerating humanity from the original sin that god cursed humanity with, but actually god's son didn't die and just came back but then fucked off again and actually you're only going to heaven if someone really holy dunks your head underwater first.

>> No.13953641

>>13951614
The entire events of the Old Testament hint at what's to come in the New, all the way back to the oldest prophecy. "15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

>> No.13953650

>>13951770
God cannot contradict Himself. He cannot go against His own nature.

>> No.13953769

it's marketing, its not supposed to mean anything, its function is to make the organisations product appealing and also comfortable for you to use

>> No.13953970
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13953970

>>13951102
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God

never wondered why the infant Jesus was placed in a manger? lambs eat out of there. it's gross.

>> No.13954019
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13954019

>>13951102
In pre-Rabbinic Judaism, you would offer sacrifices as remitence for sins, the efficacy of which would depend on the value of the animal sacrificed. In the New Testament, God comes down to earth and abides with God with such perfect love and fidelity that he endures the impossible, death, and yet lives; and in so doing, Jesus becomes a sacrifice of such infinite worth (having abided with God through the impossible, an obstacle of infinite value) that for those that accept him as the Lamb can offer this infinite sacrifice forever in remitence for any number of sins. But to recognise God as God and God as the Lamb requires the indwelling of the Spirit, which requires the establishment of a relationship with Christ, for only those to whom the Son reveals Himself can know God and so have access to the perfect repayment for all their sins, for that repayment is God Himself.

>> No.13954030

>>13954019
As a follow up, ignore the Protestant nonsense that God suffered punishment in our place. That is inconsistent with the Old Testament origins of the Paschal Mystery. The correct atonement theory is the Satisfaction Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_theory_of_atonement

>> No.13954411

>>13954030
Was just reading the article for a bit and was wondering how does the church deal with indulgences now although
Aquinas' substituion theory allows for it?

>> No.13954488

>>13951102
The phrase seems self-evident to me. Do you not understand it on a philosophical level or is it that you didn't read the Bible and so have no context for this statement?

>>13951524
Except they very clearly did, and we have the Bible and the writings of the Early Christians to prove this.

>>13951458
>endocrinates

>>13951558
How have you never heard that theory?

>>13951603
Yup, no early christian would have paid mind to Jesus telling people that unless you ate his flesh and drank his blood, there was no life in you, or John the Baptist calling him the Lamb of God (John 6:53 and John 1:29), and noticed the parallels with let's say the time Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac to appease God, and God has an angel stop Isaac and presents a lamb for Abraham to sacrifice instead, or the time He had them paint lamb's blood over the door ways of their houses so that the Angel of Death would pass over them. or any of the High Holy Days they'd celebrate yearly in which doves, heifers, and LAMBS would be sacrificed to seek God's forgiveness. Clearly this notion was invented by the Pope ten days ago to boost Watchtower subscriptions.

>> No.13954528
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13954528

>>13951524
>DBH

>> No.13954539

>>13951102
if jesus died for all our sins why are there still so many sinners in the world? i dont get it. he sacrificed himself but the world still went to shit

>> No.13954602

>>13954488
>The phrase seems self-evident to me. Do you not understand it on a

It makes no logical sense, how is the act of him dying does anything to "our sins"

It just sounds like an one liner devoid of anything substantial

>> No.13954859

>>13954539
Presumedly he died for our sins in terms of original sin, humans are still capable of sin but can be saved

>> No.13954922

>>13954602
God wanted to

>> No.13954953

>>13951614
>Why did God have to do it this way then? Why couldn't he just be like "aight now your sins can be forgiven", and then send some prophet down and he'd let us know?
What Islam

>> No.13955565

Bump

>> No.13955708

>>13951945

Note how even in this thread, Atonement of all kinds causes infernal confusion, wrestling with a net, recurring false awakening. Just as Paul wanted.

>> No.13955719

>>13954488

...or Satan telling him to jump.

>> No.13956561
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13956561

>>13951541
>so his followers were forced to create a story about how that was always the plan.
They died preaching His resurrection after witnessing it. Now, the opposition they faced...

>> No.13957186

>>13951581
Yeah except there's no danger at all but you punish the toddler anyway, forever, along with all his descendants, forever

>> No.13957219

Why are christians such self-hating masochists? At least the gnostics, fags as they are, have to balls to say "God" is fake and gay

>> No.13957750

>>13957219
God's real, but religions fake. Just b the best urself than u can b, that's all anyone can do

>> No.13957909

>>13951102
i wanna fuck violet

>> No.13957934

>>13951102
In the “pagan” traditions, people would make a sacrifice to the gods by burning some perfectly good meat. The ancestor god is supposed to be eating the smoke/spirit of the thing.

Jesus was supposedly executed and Yhwh ate his soul back up.
Long story short. Christianity is the stupidest religion on earth

>> No.13958286

>>13953641
Christians are the original "Q predicted this" retards

>> No.13958303

>>13957934
>projecting your own stupidity on to the most important event in world history
>t. femoid

color me surprised

>> No.13958344

>>13956561
>They died preaching His resurrection after witnessing it.
thats a cool just-so story but its simply not true