/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13942388]

>Books that touch men and women in completely different ways

[Anonymous No.13942404]

I truly believe only men can understand and feel The Catcher in the Rye the right way. No girl can truly get Holden.

[Anonymous No.13942412]

What exactly would a woman get out of that book? I'm trying to understand

I guess the mother was a selfish degenerate, but she was a side character to the two brother

[Anonymous No.13942435]

>>13942388
The books would have to be in different shapes.

[Anonymous No.13942439]

>>13942412

>Parce que Houellebecq met le doigt sur ce qui nous fait avancer dans nos sociétés occidentales. Une fois toutes les problématiques vitales enlevées, on cherche une chose : trouver son couple. Peu importe si on se fait chier la plupart du temps pour pouvoir vivre ces quelques instants ! Aussi, par rapport à un classique, les lecteurs d’aujourd’hui refusent de pouvoir s’ennuyer parfois en lisant. Or l’ennui peut parfois faire partie des bonheurs de la lecture ! Ici, le lecteur doit aller jusqu’au bout.

We all seek one thing, finding someone to love. Etc.

[Anonymous No.13942625]

>>13942404
this doesn't contradict your theory, but both my sister and my ex loved catcher in the rye. i never found out why either of them loved it though

[Anonymous No.13942636]

>>13942404
>>13942625
I think girls like it because they like the whole angsty take-no-shit attitude

[Anonymous No.13942654]

[Anonymous No.13942683]

>>13942636
but you think that they don't relate to holden lamenting loss of innocence/beauty and having a powerful desire to protect that innocence in kids? or are you talking about another aspect of the book?

[Anonymous No.13942757]

>>13942683
Older women with kids of their own probably relate to him in a motherly way but I don't think any women without their own kids truly relate to other kids in a motherly way. Unless you've worked with kids you don't understand them, and unless you've had a kid you don't understand how to related to them like they're your own kid. Any girl who's too you to have kids probably relates to them the same way you think of girls who were hot when you were a kid in school. You don't think "wow those teenage girls were hot", you think "when I was that age from my perspective they were hot" which is probably the way girls look at it someone like Holden, imagining who they'd like at Holden's age. I'm pretty high though so I'm probably wrong

[Anonymous No.13942874]

>>13942683
I don't think women are capable of lamenting the loss of innocence because their identity as women is inherently sexual. To reject adulthood is to reject their own being. As for why there are women that like the book, I couldn't tell you.

[Anonymous No.13942899]

>>13942874
Actually I think I'll make a speculation. They like it because they want to fuck Holden. The aspects of him they can't relate to are glossed over since they find him attractive.

[Anonymous No.13942910]

>>13942439
Somewhat unrelated but if I mostly understood this what works in French could I get into (with a dictionary)?

[Anonymous No.13942912]

>>13942874
I get violent thoughts reading some of the shit you retards write sometimes. All I can do is imagine hurting you because any kind of verbal communication on my part will be discredited for me being a woman lacking awareness. I wonder if this is how blackpilled incels feel.

[Anonymous No.13942914]

>>13942874
are there any women here who have an opinion on this idea and/or relate to holden's emotions for the above reasons?

[Anonymous No.13942926]

>>13942912
>All I can do is imagine hurting you
you can also tell him why what he's saying doesn't apply to you

[Anonymous No.13942941]

>>13942912
I didn't say you weren't capable of understanding the book on an intellectual level. I said you're incapable of feeling the same things that Holden does. Perhaps there might be exceptions for women who were abused in childhood (though in this case you wouldn't share Holden's reasons), but for a normal woman I honestly don't think you are capable.

[Anonymous No.13942960]

>>13942912
Here, I'll throw you a bone. If you're posting here and claiming that you're a woman, chances are you're probably a tranny, in which case you are indeed capable of relating to Holden since you're actually a man. Does that help?

[Anonymous No.13942961]

>>13942388
Women are incapable of understanding

[Anonymous No.13942996]

>>13942926
It doesn’t apply to me because I’m just as capable of feeling the same wide span of human emotions, same as other women. I read the book as a teenager while I was going through the same feelings of isolation as Holden. I also lamented the loss of innocence as you mentioned.

But anon, I don’t think I can convince that guy. In his view, it applies to me simply because I’m a woman. Nothing I say proves him wrong. To him, it probably looks like I’m lying to myself. I don’t know if anyone on this website could change his mind, at least not in a day. It would probably take quite a while for that anon to come to a different understanding as he probably went through a lot of experiences over time to lead him to that conclusion. I don’t think it can be undone by me alone.

[Anonymous No.13943037]

>>13942996
you may be right, but i think it's likely he believes the sincerity and legitimacy of your post; and even though you may be an exceptional case you're still evidence that suggests that there could be many more women like you, and that it's possible you're not even in the minority

hopefully he replies

[Anonymous No.13943045]

>>13942996
I don't think teenagers (males included) are capable of understanding the book either, so telling me you felt the same things as Holden when you read it as a teenager confirms that you didn't understand it.

[Anonymous No.13943054]

>>13943045
explain to the best of your ability what you believe the true emotional understanding of the book to be and why it is impossible for young people or women to emotionally understand it.

[Anonymous No.13943074]

>>13942388
Dostoevsky

[Anonymous No.13943082]

>>13943054
Because teenagers are not self-aware enough to understand what is happening to them at that time and to conceive of their maturation as a negative. Holden does, but that's because he's not a realistic teenager. He has the mind of the author, informed by his experience of warfare, placed back into a teenage body to perceive that period of transition with the self-awareness that does not actually accompany it. I read it as a teenager as well, I even recall writing an essay in a class about how I related to Holden (we were allowed to choose the character we related to), which is funny in hindsight. I didn't comprehend the book until I read it again in my late 20s.

[Anonymous No.13943085]

>>13943045
>>13943045
>I don't think teenagers (males included) are capable of understanding the book
this isn't true. i intuitively understood it when i read it at around 17. it's a book that a lot of teenagers (and adults) hate, but most of the teenagers that are profoundly touched by it likely understand it, whether they can or can't articulate that understanding, because i can't think of many alternative interpretations or aspects of the book that would affect someone so deeply

[Anonymous No.13943091]

>>13942757
>You don't think "wow those teenage girls were hot", you think "when I was that age from my perspective they were hot"

This is a very emasculated perspective.

[Anonymous No.13943095]

>>13943082
>to conceive of their maturation as a negative. Holden does, but that's because he's not a realistic teenager.
i did, or at least i perceived the type of maturation i saw in most adults as negative. he is a realistic teenager, even if he's not an average teenager. if he were average he wouldn't have had so many issues every time he tried to socialize

[Anonymous No.13943099]

>>13943095
and if he were unrealistic then no teenagers would have so completely identified with him

[Anonymous No.13943111]

>>13943085
>>13943095
>>13943099
I simply don't believe you. If you want to claim you understood it at that age, that's your prerogative.

[Anonymous No.13943117]

>>13943111
do you think i'm lying, misremembering, or do you think that i don't understand the book even now?

[Anonymous No.13943126]

>>13942388
The Odyssey.

Just look at how Emily Wilson translated it.

[Anonymous No.13943131]

>>13943117
If you're a woman then probably all three.

[Anonymous No.13943155]

>>13943117
It sounds like he’s just extremely solipsistic and expects everyone’s emotional development to be identical to his. That, or he was fishing for (You)s the whole time. I admire you trying anyway instead of giving up right away.

[Anonymous No.13943183]

>>13943155
yeah, i get that sometimes it can be tough to imagine that other neurotypical people think and like and perceive things in different ways. that's where a lot of false 'hipster' and 'pretentious' accusations probably come from. some experiences/thoughts/preferences seem so far removed from your own that you believe other people must be posturing even when they aren't

i doubt he was fishing for yous. his thoughts seem authentic to me

[Anonymous No.13943187]

[Anonymous No.13943210]

>>13943183
it's interesting though that he believes women are so different from men that none of them can understand catcher in the rye, but at the same time he doesn't believe that another male teenager could be different enough to understand catcher in the rye. all men very same; all women very different

[Anonymous No.13943240]

>>13942388
Anna Karenina

[Anonymous No.13943490]

>>13942910
It's a tired meme, but Camus. Not just The Stranger. Check out his essays or his letters and diary entries about all sorts of shit under the sun.

[Anonymous No.13943571]

>>13942388
>Fight Club

[Anonymous No.13943643]

>>13943571
Nah, my girlfriend understands it pretty well, but she grew up with older brothers.

[Anonymous No.13943651]

>>13943240
came to post this

[Anonymous No.13943653]

>>13942912
yassss queen :) please be in london

[Anonymous No.13943754]

>>13943210
good point

also, why is everybody acting like holden was resisting 'maturity' or 'becoming an adult'. this is really far off the mark. he doesn't cherish the state of being infantile, he cherishes the innocence, i.e. lack of knowledge about how horrible society is. holden, despite his age, is clearly more mature than most adults (though inexperienced), because he refuses to take part in the phoniness and duplicity of feigning superiority, assurance, passionlessness and happiness, and conformity in general. (thinking on it, one could also say that children are generally echt; unlike adults they do not behave in a conformist way, and that is why holden enjoys spending time with them)

it's also galling to hear him described as unrealistic. he is an extremely realistic character. >>13943082
let's not forget the lingering grief he is experiencing during the book from the death of his younger brother, aside from everything else, which is a part of the black cloud that hangs over him. being surrounded by immature people this compounds his loneliness, cf the homework that chadlater derides before he goes out on a date with the girl he used to play checkers with.

ironically, i would expect women far more than men to fail to grasp this distinction between maturity and conformity. in fact, this is the very reason that i would say women are more likely to fail to understand catcher in the rye. let's add american psycho to the list of works they might fail to grasp, bateman being the anti-holden. "on a date with patrick at espace. he is SO HOT!! he smells really good too. i bet he's got a big dick ..."

[Anonymous No.13943872]

>>13942404

Probably true. But even a lot of guys don't get Holden. Chads will never understand.

[Anonymous No.13943888]

>>13943754

Bateman is only the anti-Holden in the sense he's succumbed to the external pressures and expectations of his society, but he is just as aware of his loss and the enormity of its tragedy. He's fucked and feels it with crushing intensity.

[Anonymous No.13943910]

>>13942435
Tpbp

[Anonymous No.13943919]

>>13943888
true, but i think most people who are conformists feel that crushing intensity. like bateman, they would never confront it, because that requires holden levels of maturity.

but of course they have jobs and the right clothes and whitney houston albums and put on a semblance of authoritativeness, thus they are mature adults.

[Anonymous No.13943981]

>>13943240

I thought you said Anna Komnene there at first--I have poor eyesight. It got my brain racking.

[Anonymous No.13944157]

>>13942388
Venus in Furs

[Anonymous No.13944190]

>>13943919

Do you think so? I don't think most normie conformists are aware of themselves in that manner. I think Bateman, like Holden, is remarkable because he is both aware of, and wants to confront, his corruption, but unlike Holden he is too weak and too far gone to even conceive what such a rebellion might look like. Holden dreams of being the catcher in the rye; Bateman has no exit, his fate is sealed and he knows it well.

[Anonymous No.13945474]

Notes from the underground
>women: eww haha what a loser, he doesn't deserve a single hair of liza. zverkov sounds hot tho i want to him to fuck me
>men:

[Anonymous No.13945493]

Women don't understand 90% of books' intents

[Anonymous No.13945498]

>>13945474

based

[Anonymous No.13945505]

>>13942874
see >>13943091
If anything, men aren't capable of appreciating loss of innocence

[Anonymous No.13945535]

>>13945474
This, and also possibly
- B. E. Ellis
- E. Sabato

[Anonymous No.13945584]

>>13942912
>I get violent thoughts reading some of the shit you retards write sometimes
>proving his point
y i k e s
i
k
e
s

[Anonymous No.13945651]

>>13942912
>I get violent thoughts reading some of the shit you retards write sometimes

Fool... he would be able to defeat you using only 20% of his strength.

[Anonymous No.13945665]

>>13945505

Men's loss of innocence is far more powerful. Women's sexuality is purely a matter of conditioning, that's why they get off to literally anything - they've just been told to get off to something sexual. Their loss of innocence is neither inevitable nor inherent - nor irreversible.

Men, however... the average man is a split personality, torn between the child he was and the adult he is struggling to be, with the emergence of a powerful sexual drive as the key dichotomizing feature

[Anonymous No.13945733]

Lolita desu

[Anonymous No.13946505]

>>13945665
Dude. What the fuck. Get outside. You are making me embarrassed to be a man. This is your issue, not a universal

[Anonymous No.13946665]

C O O M

[Anonymous No.13946768]

I had a short relationship with a girl who was a self identifying communist. She told me her favorite book was Brave New World.

[Anonymous No.13946780]

>>13942388
Homer is the big one. Almost every man I know loves it and almost every woman I know despises it. Some seem to play at loving it in order to subvert it.
>>13943126
Wilson is a good example.

[Anonymous No.13946785]

>>13942388
>touch men and women in completely different ways
what about trannies ?

[Anonymous No.13946913]

>>13942912
back to r*ddit faggot

[Anonymous No.13946915]

>>13945474
fuck, this

[Anonymous No.13946943]

>>13942912
You are fucking pathetic, woman or not.

[Anonymous No.13947278]

>>13943091
>if you don't want to bang elementary schoolers you're emasculated
>>>/lgbt/

[Anonymous No.13948004]

>>13942874
fuck, now i know why there´s no female manchild

[Anonymous No.13948022]

>>13942874
>their identity as women is inherently sexual
Why is this the case? From men's perspective women are identified by sexuality, but what makes a woman's self conception more based on sexuality than a man's? Is this true even for old women who lost their sex drive and don't event think about sex anymore?

[Anonymous No.13948045]

>>13947278
>teenage girls are elementary schoolers
When did people start pretending that there's no difference between being a newborn baby and being seventeen years old?

[Anonymous No.13948053]

>>13942874
I thought women were supposed to be eternal children.

[Anonymous No.13948076]

>>13943082
I honestly think people who speak overly negatively about the maturity of teenagers are generally projecting their own experience onto others. It's possible I'm just still retarded but I haven't felt a significant change in my ability to understand things since I was a teenager. Not that there hasn't been one, but it's not any kind of overwhelming change, just having a wider context to understand things.

[Anonymous No.13948680]

>>13948076
agree

[Anonymous No.13948714]

>>13942912
>being a woman
>in 2015+4
Lmfao ishygddt

[Anonymous No.13948757]

>>13942912
ugh I envy you and your heightened awareness of emotion

this kind of shit stopped phasing me years and years ago and probably doesn't phase men in general. Fuck everyone replying to you btw

[Anonymous No.13949008]

>>13942388

[Anonymous No.13950890]

>>13942404
my girlfriend's mother likes the book a lot

[Anonymous No.13950895]

>>13942388
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.13950903]

>>13950895
you figure it out

[Anonymous No.13950910]

>>13942654
This

[Anonymous No.13950911]

>>13950903
I won't.

[Anonymous No.13950917]

>>13942912
>I wonder if this is how blackpilled incels feel.

Maybe you do get it.

[Anonymous No.13950943]

>>13943187
B & R

[Anonymous No.13951262]

>>13944190
>Bateman has no exit, his fate is sealed and he knows it well.
You clearly didnt listen to the lyrics

[Anonymous No.13951331]

>>13942388
My uncle's hands desu.
Oh you said books.

[Anonymous No.13951393]

Stoner

[Anonymous No.13951451]

[Anonymous No.13951570]

>>13942874
Exactly this. Women's being is fundamentally sexual. Women have only self-control by force of social pressure; individually they follow their sexual nature which is to belong to, to be the possession of someone, and not to possess. Woman is complementary, but sexually and there emotionally complementary, not intellectually.

This is why women, due to their bi-dimensional psychism, are wholly incapable of understanding any of the great works of art. Art is for humans, a category in which women, being dolls, have no importance in.

[Anonymous No.13951860]

>>13942912
I think it's important for men to explore their capacity for empathy by really trying to understand what it is like to be born female. And I think the incels on this board would appreciate an attemp from women to empathize with them. For all their faults.

[Anonymous No.13951993]

>>13942404
Only women like that book

[Anonymous No.13952013]

>>13951570
>bi-dimensional psychism

[Anonymous No.13952016]

>>13942912
>even the weakest of incels could likely crush your skull in easily
Oooo sweeeaty :) sit down xD

[Anonymous No.13952018]

>>13951570
I would agree with you but what about the Pillow Book lady, or Teresa of Avila? Usually I don't read women because they can't write for shit but they seem to be exceptions to the rule.

[civ vi No.13952057]

>>13942996
You can never change anyone's opinions about anything alone. Change of opinion is a cumulative effect.

[Anonymous No.13952118]

>>13942874
Femanon here. I like the book because IT'S FUCKING INTERESTING TO READ. The "type how you talk" style is something I enjoy. That's it.

[Anonymous No.13952131]

>>13952118
Cutting your dick off doesn't make you a woman, anon-kun.

[Anonymous No.13952144]

>>13952057
>cumulative
cum

[Anonymous No.13952151]

>>13952118
Also that stupid "inherently sexual" part is a farce because there are many asexual women or women with low libidos. They're only heavily sexual to you because you choose to put everyone in neat little boxes.

[Anonymous No.13952154]

>>13952013
Yes, compared to tri-dimensionality of the male psyche.

>>13952018
Mysticism is inherently feminine, and I would agree that there have been some great female saints, mystics, and spiritual masters (far in the past of course).

There also have been a few good female poets, at least in terms of formal propriety. I'm not that familiar with the Japanese female court poets in ancient Japan but I wouldn't surprised if they fell under this. An English example would be Elizabeth Barrett Browning.

Of course this is still nothing compared to the highest of arts, the humanity-making genius of Virgil, Milton, and Dante.

[Anonymous No.13952162]

>>13952131
Yeah yeah figured you'd say that. You guys wanted yo know why, amd you got it. But the second I'm outta this thread I'm just an anon and chances are I've replied to you once or twice.

[Anonymous No.13952175]

>>13942404
I've talked to several girls who love Catcher because they were attracted to Holden

[Anonymous No.13952191]

>>13952162
There are no girls on the internet, anon-kun.

[Anonymous No.13952225]

>>13942388
Marquis du Sade. Also,
>>13951451
>>13945733
>>13944157
This

[Anonymous No.13952229]

>>13942912
Oooo we're so intimidated. Go cry about it to bf.

[Anonymous No.13952426]

>>13951570
What makes women more sexual than men? Men are the same except their drive is to possess.

[Anonymous No.13952470]

>>13952426

Come now, don't play coy. This basic truth has been propounded by inspired poets since time immemorial.

[Anonymous No.13952481]

>>13952470
Women DO receive more pleasure out of it, but that doesn't mean they seek it all the time.

[Anonymous No.13952486]

>>13952470
Women receive more pleasure when the sex is aligned how they like with men they're very attracted to. But it's women who are more likely to complain about loss of sex drive or sex being unpleasurable and having to lie back and think of England for sex they don't enjoy. Men on the other hand can enjoy pretty much any sex as long as it isn't painful or the girl isn't a literal goblin.

[Anonymous No.13952498]

>>13951262

Great musical, but I don't know what you're referring to since the lyrics agree with me

[Anonymous No.13952503]

>>13952486
Not the anon you're arguing with, but to add to your argument it has to do with the glans. In women, it's in the clit and it has double the nerve ending a male's does. Because of that, touching it directly can cause pain. The vagina itself needs to be aroused first, which is why foreplay is so important. Many women have to prepare themselves since many men tend to forget all about foreplay. Having to do it themselves, they feel like it wastes too much time and do it less. That's why not many women have as much sex as men and why men can enjoy any and all type of sex.

[Anonymous No.13952505]

>>13952481
Men have a sex, women's sex has them.

She is defined internally and externally by her ability to have children. It is the ability around which most women's lives revolve.

Thus sexuality is a woman's domain, just as power is the domain of men.

[Anonymous No.13952511]

>>13944190
>Do you think so? I don't think most normie conformists are aware of themselves in that manner.
You don't need self-awareness to have a crushing sense of the failure and patheticness of your conformist life

[Anonymous No.13952513]

>>13952505
Power can't be separated from sexuality.

[Anonymous No.13952517]

>>13952505
If you want the most generic and basic meaning of a women, then yes. I could easily say a man's only purpose is to do laboral work and nothing more since they can make muscles much easier. But that doesn't mean that's all they should do.

[Anonymous No.13952519]

>>13952513
Neither can men from women, or women from men.

[Anonymous No.13952531]

>>13952517
I mean power in a metaphysical sense, not in terms of ability to do labor, although that is certainly a part of it.

[Anonymous No.13952545]

>>13952531
>in a metaphysical sense
Explain

[Anonymous No.13952551]

>>13952229
Woah that dude needs to chill.

[Anonymous No.13952553]

[Anonymous No.13952562]

I look at these threads because I generally agree with a lot of what is said about women. I am trying to discern if my feeling that I could be different and achieve my dreams is potentially viable or just a pitiful lack of self awareness. It seems that being born a woman is like a biologically rooted mental handicap that can't be overcome, or even if it is to an extent they still can't reach anywhere near the levels of great men. Can it be overcome or should I just kill myself?

[Anonymous No.13952577]

>>13942912
What are you a black person or something?

[Anonymous No.13952582]

>>13952562
Stop being gullible. Everyone can be self-improved if they want to. Get a stronger will, femanon, and ignore any other fucking answer.

[Anonymous No.13952587]

>>13952562
Women are not unable to make good literature because they're incapable, but rather because they are not driven even 1/10th as much as a man.

[Anonymous No.13952593]

>>13952562
Stop trying to be a man. Be a good woman. Think about what makes a good woman. It is not the same as being a good man.

[Anonymous No.13952595]

>>13952562
what in this thread is most agreeable to you? which posts in particular strike you as true based on your experience?

[Anonymous No.13952623]

>>13946505
He has a point desu. Women aren't treated like shit every time they cry as an adult. The current culture is repressive for males (it's always been repressive for both genders in the past but now women are encouraged to have a say in matters and at the same time are empathized with when they show how hurt they are. When men do it they are told to kill themselves, which they do 4 times as much as women.)

[Anonymous No.13952625]

>>13952562
yes. it isn't that literally all women are so bad. it's just generalisations. let's also not forget that most men are horrible. from this post alone it can be said that you are self-critical and open-minded, that alone puts you on another tier.

[Anonymous No.13952748]

>>13952426
Women are fundamentally sexual creatures, unable to separate their psyche and being from sexuality. Men are also sexual of course, but are able to sublimate and dissociate themselves from sexuality into the realm of the purely contemplative intellectual, ideal, and spiritual. Read Weininger.

[Anonymous No.13952758]

>>13952748
It's already been proved that's not true

[Anonymous No.13952976]

>>13942404

>>13942404
Catcher in the Rye was meant specifically for men to read. Women were never supposed to and cant truly relate to it.

[Anonymous No.13954259]

>>13942625
>and my ex
> i never found out why either of them loved it though

No wonder she's your ex

[Anonymous No.13954357]

>>13954259
depending on the angle you're onto some amount of truth there, but neither of us liked to analyse fiction or discuss it in much depth; she didn't read much, and i think that most kinds of discussion about art that moves me cheapens it. reactions to it should be felt and acted out, not broken down verbally. our discussions on catcher in the rye were indirect or physical, i.e. intimacy, sex, rebelliousness, rejection of inauthenticity

[Anonymous No.13955263]

>>13942912
Based

[Anonymous No.13955463]

>>13942404
that's because Holden was raped and raped his sister, that shit can't be viewed from the feminine side because they can't penetrate, only be penetrated, and Holden was both penetrated and penetrated Phoebe.

also dealing with sexual abuse as a male would be vastly different considering the expectation to be macho in 50s society etc. etc. etc.

I imagine the same would apply to a mental health case for women, no man can truly understand Anna Karenina (the character), but Levin is easily understandable for a male.

[Anonymous No.13955611]

>>13942654
>>13950910
how

[Anonymous No.13956429]

>>13943240
why? what makes it inaccessible to them?

[Anonymous No.13956535]

>>13952562
most the guys posting here in incapable of being above average, let alone greatness.The kind of great being talked about can't be reached by normal men themselves. So none of the guys here can be any greater than what you can be.

[Anonymous No.13956542]

>>13956535
only because you´re mediocre, that doesn´t mean i am too

[Anonymous No.13956545]

Surprised it hasn't been said yet...THE BIBLE

[Anonymous No.13956612]

>>13956542
Sure you aren't. Everyone with a keyboard can type that out.

[Anonymous No.13956645]

>>13956612
it´s ok if you don´t believe me, 20 years from now you´re just going to be a boring wife with 3 kids meanwhile i will achieve my true will around that time, who´s the mediocre now?

[Anonymous No.13956735]

>>13952553
Gatsby was pussy whipped to high hell. He is a shining example of wasted potential.