/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13924921]

A while ago some Iranian on here posted a cheeky thread saying to start with the Persians. Well I've unironically decided to do just that, bought a few books to help me learn to read and write Persian and I'd like to read them. What should I read? So far on the list I have the Cyropaedia and the Gathas.

[Anonymous No.13924937]

>book written by a Greek and a book written by an eastern Iranian
Good job, but next time try to start with the Persians you complete and utter brainlet.

[Anonymous No.13924942]

>>13924921
I'm that anon you're talking about. Which translations of the Gathas did you buy? It is really the most important, and I recommend reflecting on its meaning deeply.
>>13924937
Eastern Iranians are formative to Persian ethos, so I don't get what you're saying.

[Anonymous No.13924957]

>>13924937
I thought Persian was a word that the Greeks used to refer to all Iranians? Not really looking to quibble about semantics, you probably have some weird /pol/ angle as well.
>>13924942
I haven't bought a translation yet, what do you recommend and what other books would you suggest, both written by Persians and also books written by others to understand Zoroastrianism and other aspects of Persian thought?

[Anonymous No.13924958]

>>13924921
Based, dude. Good luck with Farsi, I'd like to learn it some day as well. And Avestan too. Don't got any recs for you though.

[Anonymous No.13924971]

Good luck OP. I'm a linguist and semi-persiaboo. I'm not fluent yet but feel free to ask me any questions about Farsi or language learning in general.

Also I strongly recommend Basic Persian: A Grammar and Workbook, by Hayedeh Torabi and Saeed Yousef.

[Anonymous No.13924973]

>>13924942
Persian ethos is lying and stealing, which I am pretty sure you know is the complete opposite of what Zarathrusta would recommend someone to do. Some ethos, yikes

[Anonymous No.13924980]

>>13924921
The Blind Owl by Sadegh Hedayat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadegh_Hedayat

[Anonymous No.13924983]

>>13924937
>eastern Iranian

[Anonymous No.13924992]

>>13924957
I recommend both Mary Boyce and Piloo Nanavutty's translations. Mary Boyce has a partial, but very good, translation of the Gathas in "Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism". Piloo Nanavutty did a full translation, but some of the interpretations are based on Parsi orthodoxy. I think the Gathas is more complex in its implications than what a lot of Parsi say:
https://www.amazon.com/Textual-Sources-Study-Zoroastrianism-Religion/dp/0226069303/
https://www.amazon.com/Gathas-Zarathushtra-Hymns-Praise-Wisdom/dp/1890206091/
The Gathas was written in an ancient language called "Old Avestan". It's very difficult to learn.
You don't need to learn to read or write Persian. That seems overkill compared to what I was initially suggesting btw.
Also, I don't feel post-Islamic Iranian culture was that interesting. When I said "start with the Persians", I really meant just read the Gathas and contemplate deeply over its philosophical implications. It is similar to Empedocle's philosophy in my view, though there are some differences.

[Anonymous No.13925008]

>>13924957
>>13924992
Oh, I also forgot to mention reading Darius I's inscriptions at Naqsh-e Rostam. They are surprisingly aligned with the message of the Gathas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqsh-e_Rostam#Darius_I_inscription

[Anonymous No.13925011]

>>13924971
Thanks, I will take any guidance on learning the language. I picked up Read and Write Persian in 7 Days by Reza Nazari and Complete Persian by Narguess Farzad because there were cheap as fuck on Kindle, but I'll see about picking up Basic Persian as well.
>>13924980
I'm more interested in historical works as opposed to modern Iranian stuff but I won't discount the recs, added to the list under "Modern Persian".

[Anonymous No.13925027]

>>13924992
>>13925008
So you would suggest reading both translations?
I'm interested in learning Persian for other reasons. Full confession: my dad is from Iran but moved to America and married a white woman and afterwards seemed to distance himself from the culture and language and never taught me Persian, but I kind of what to rediscover those roots and your thread got me interested in it. He is completely unwilling to teach me Persian, he's turned me down several times when I asked him even though he speaks it fluently.

[Anonymous No.13925068]

>>13925027
>So you would suggest reading both translations?
Yes. In fact, I would suggest reading more than just those two. Those two are just my first recommendations. I believe reading the translations on avesta.org and Humbach are also useful, although later on. The Gathas is a perplexing text.
>Full confession: my dad is from Iran but moved to America and married a white woman and afterwards seemed to distance himself from the culture and language and never taught me Persian, but I kind of what to rediscover those roots and your thread got me interested in it.
It's very common with Iranians. In fact, I read a study a long time ago about how the number of Iranians in USA is underestimated because most of them lie about being Italian.
Regardless, in that particular thread, I wasn't really focusing on that. I was pointing out how the Gathas was formative in the genesis of Western culture. I actually believe the Gathas did influence many Pre-Socratics. The themes that Heraclitus, Empedocles, and a few others focused on seemed to start with the Gathas, but I would argue Empedocles argued more in favor of it whereas Heraclitus developed his own views. Both revered fire and fixated on the nature of dichotomies for a reason.
However, let me say this, denying the main message of the Gathas is a pretty big deal in the sense you stand on the verge of "antinomian tendencies". The *main* message is simple and comes down to a basic dichotomy of truth and lie, good and evil, and so forth, and a privileging of truth over lie, good over evil, and so forth. Recent philosophers like Derrida use obscurantist language to blur or reject these fundamental dichotomies of civilization.
Even Hegel admitted that ancient Iran can be considered as a precursor to Western civilization.
There are basic assumptions at play at the foundation of civilization.

[Anonymous No.13925110]

>>13925068
Very interesting. What is your opinion on the relation between ancient Indian civilization and Iranian civilization? The ancient Hindus also revered fire.

[Anonymous No.13925139]

>>13925110
They both have common origin in Proto-Indo-Iranians of Sintashta culture interacting with BMAC people. These mixed people then migrated to Iranian plateau, NW India, and more. Zarathustra probably emerged from "Yaz culture" during some time between 1000-1500 BCE. Check image.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

For simplicity, I say older pre-Islamic Persian culture truly began with Yaz culture, which involved the interaction between Sintashta and BMAC people.

Old Avestan is closely related to Sanskrit, and the role of daevas and asuras are inverted in these religions, signaling a kind of rivalry/conflict.

[Anonymous No.13925142]

>>13925110
They both have common origin in Proto-Indo-Iranians of Sintashta culture interacting with BMAC people. These mixed people then migrated to Iranian plateau, NW India, and more. Zarathustra probably emerged from "Yaz culture" during some time between 1000-1500 BCE. Check image.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

For simplicity, I say older pre-Islamic Persian culture truly began with Yaz culture, which involved the interaction between Sintashta and BMAC people.

Old Avestan is closely related to Sanskrit, and the role of daevas and asuras are inverted in these religions, signaling a kind of rivalry/conflict. Note, I will delete previous message. I repested this with better images.

[Anonymous No.13925188]

>>13925142
Thanks for the in-depth info. I have a friend who is North Indian and my last name has a Sanskrit word in it, so we've always wondered what the connection was.

[Anonymous No.13925200]

>>13925188
Old Avestan and Sanskrit are very similar, so it may be a name in Avestan. You should look into that. What was your dad's ethnic background in Iran?

[Anonymous No.13925283]

>>13925200
I'm not sure what the ethnic distinctions are. My dad is from the south but according to him the family is very old and was forced south after losing some war with another large family, no idea how to confirm or deny this. He has paleish skin with black hair and brown eyes, he's not very dark but also doesn't look white. One of my brothers looks completely white though and some of my family members I've met also look white - very pale, brown hair, green or blue eyes. Many of the others look similar to my dad.

[Urantia No.13925322]

>>13924921
Read the Zend Avesta of Zarathustra
translated by Edmund Bordeaux Szekely


95:6.7.Even the religion which succeeded Zoroastrianism in Persia was markedly influenced by it. When the Iranian priests sought to overthrow the teachings of Zoroaster, they resurrected the ancient worship of Mithra. And Mithraism spread throughout the Levant and Mediterranean regions, being for some time a contemporary of both Judaism and Christianity. The teachings of Zoroaster thus came successively to impress three great religions: Judaism and Christianity and, through them, Mohammedanism.

[Anonymous No.13925340]

>>13925322
Added to the list, thanks. What more can you tell me about Mithraism?

[Urantia No.13925360]

>>13925340
From the Urantia papers:
98:5.1.The Phrygian and Egyptian mysteries eventually gave way before the greatest of all the mystery cults, the worship of Mithras. The Mithraic cult made its appeal to a wide range of human nature and gradually supplanted both of its predecessors. Mithraism spread over the Roman Empire through the propagandizing of Roman legions recruited in the Levant, where this religion was the vogue, for they carried this belief wherever they went. And this new religious ritual was a great improvement over the earlier mystery cults.

98:5.2.The cult of Mithras arose in Iran and long persisted in its homeland despite the militant opposition of the followers of Zoroaster. But by the time Mithraism reached Rome, it had become greatly improved by the absorption of many of Zoroaster's teachings. It was chiefly through the Mithraic cult that Zoroaster's religion exerted an influence upon later appearing Christianity.

98:5.3.The Mithraic cult portrayed a militant god taking origin in a great rock, engaging in valiant exploits, and causing water to gush forth from a rock struck with his arrows. There was a flood from which one man escaped in a specially built boat and a last supper which Mithras celebrated with the sun-god before he ascended into the heavens. This sun-god, or Sol Invictus, was a degeneration of the Ahura-Mazda deity concept of Zoroastrianism. Mithras was conceived as the surviving champion of the sun-god in his struggle with the god of darkness. And in recognition of his slaying the mythical sacred bull, Mithras was made immortal, being exalted to the station of intercessor for the human race among the gods on high.

[Anonymous No.13925365]

>>13925360
Any relation between the sacred bull and the Bull of Heaven from the Epic of Gilgamesh? And how closely related is this Mithra to the Mitra of old Hinduism?

[Urantia No.13925368]

>>13925360
98:5.4.The adherents of this cult worshiped in caves and other secret places, chanting hymns, mumbling magic, eating the flesh of the sacrificial animals, and drinking the blood. Three times a day they worshiped, with special weekly ceremonials on the day of the sun-god and with the most elaborate observance of all on the annual festival of Mithras, December twenty-fifth. It was believed that the partaking of the sacrament ensured eternal life, the immediate passing, after death, to the bosom of Mithras, there to tarry in bliss until the judgment day. On the judgment day the Mithraic keys of heaven would unlock the gates of Paradise for the reception of the faithful; whereupon all the unbaptized of the living and the dead would be annihilated upon the return of Mithras to earth. It was taught that, when a man died, he went before Mithras for judgment, and that at the end of the world Mithras would summon all the dead from their graves to face the last judgment. The wicked would be destroyed by fire, and the righteous would reign with Mithras forever.

98:5.5.At first it was a religion only for men, and there were seven different orders into which believers could be successively initiated. Later on, the wives and daughters of believers were admitted to the temples of the Great Mother, which adjoined the Mithraic temples. The women's cult was a mixture of Mithraic ritual and the ceremonies of the Phrygian cult of Cybele, the mother of Attis.

[Anonymous No.13925389]

>>13925368
Sounds pretty based desu

[Anonymous No.13925390]

>>13925365
You're better off reading the Britannica Encyclopedia article on Mithraism. It is more scholarly rigorous than the stuff Urantia is sharing.
I also recommend Richard Foltz's Religions of Iran: From Prehistory to the Present if you want to explore religious development of Iran in a larger scope.

[Anonymous No.13925397]

>>13925390
>Britannica Encyclopedia article on Mithraism.
Here:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mithraism/Mythology-and-theology

It's more scholarly rigorous than what Urantia is sharing.

[Anonymous No.13926196]

anyone else interested in this stuff because of Jason Reza Jorjani's "New Thinking Allowed" interviews?

is it worth it for a non-persian to pursue this kind of stuff on a more spiritual level?

t. aussie who's kinda cucked in terms of pagan backgrounds and doesn't want anything to do with christianity

[Anonymous No.13926241]

>>13926196
From my experience with Persians they generally like people of other cultures and are excited when those people want to learn more about them and their culture.

[Anonymous No.13926485]

>>13926196
>aussie
>spiritual
>anti christianity
maaaaaaaaaaaaaaate
stop being a fucken poof and take the jesuspill you've been avoiding because of your snowflake sensibilities

[Anonymous No.13926495]

>>13925068
>number of Iranians in USA is underestimated because most of them lie about being Italian
Same here in France. The absolute number is low anyway but I knew one that lied about being Lebanese (I guess people would be able to detect fake Italians here).

[Anonymous No.13927714]

>>13926485
What's funny is Zarathustra had more genetic connections with Europeans due to significant steppe admixture. Also, an argument could be made that Zarathustra's message was meant for all steppe peoples. Kind of funny how you idiots picked a megalomaniac desert nomad over a steppe mystic who shared ancestry with you. Also, Kurgan Hypothesis has pretty much been proven in the modern era.