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/lit/ - Literature

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13893322 No.13893322 [Reply] [Original]

How could anyone ever hope to understand this book?
This is an explanation of just the first sentence I found on Quora
>Like in a dream, we arrive mid-sentence (this is the open sentence, a fragment - which flows from the tail end of the book which trails off mid-sentence but wraps around to continue to the story):
“riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.”
>The end of the book:
The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the
>You could write an entire book on just the first sentence fragment. We are introduced to all the major themes: the city/river (male/female) relationship, the fall & redemption, geography, Viconian cycles (Giambattista Vico's cyclic theory of history and a foreshadowing that we will be repeating our story), and the trigram identity, in this case HCE.
>To those familiar with Dublin this sentence sets the scene: the winding river Liffey that ran past the Church of St Francis of Assisi (was known as Adam and Eve's Church, then a tavern by that name) then out to Dublin Bay and down the southern Vico road (swerve of shore) or out past Howth (bend of bay).
>And in the end "the keys to" have been "given away" at last - the four 'kisses': lone, last, loved and long.
>rún means something hidden or secret, a mystery. So again, the tale itself is giving us a guide.
>riv - err - un: latin 'riv' river, to 'err' is to fall, 'un' is a reversal (redemption) - so the entire story arc is encapsulated within the first word.
>Adam & Eve is the obvious Biblical reference to the Fall.
>HCE appears over and over, and represents our protagonist, nominally Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker who embodies Dublin (and numerous other forms) and his wife, Anna Livia Plurabelle (ALP) personified as the river Liffey (and numerous other forms).

>> No.13893388

>>13893322
Been thinking of tackling this recently, though I think it's like trying to tackle a mountain, you'll just never topple it. I reached out to my Joyce professor and asked him for advice. He says first and foremost you have to abandon the idea that theres a "real book" hidden in here. FW goes beyond that. From what I've gathered online, preparatory reading would be nice (especially the bible, vico, a napoleon biography, all literature) but you'll never be truly equipped to read it, so then you're left with incompletion regardless of what you do.

What I've read, and what seems to me the smartest thing to do, is read the book with one focus in mind. Be it vico or themes of other joyce works. Read it just trying to find and understand that one thing. Also, by god read it allowed. Look for a summary of each section and go back after the initial reading with a guide to give you some loose definitions of things. I've read that some slave away and do a page a day for years, and maybe you're the type that's up for that, but I know that I'm not. For everyone else, it seems that you just take a bite on your first way through, then a second on your second, so on and so forth.

Goodluck anon. I hope to join you soon

>> No.13893392

>>13893388
>aloud

Woops

>> No.13893432

>>13893322
People like to wank themselves over this but honestly with composite words is not hard to make up plenty of interpretations. On Joyce's part it was a tremendous effort but autistically analysing every single bit is bound to overstate the reading difficulty.

Also piling up reference upon reference is not that good a writing technique, it's even pretty sloppy past a point and a cheap way to get critical praise point without real craft. I'd argue this is not what Joyce is trying to do here. You can dissect all you want, sure. But if you're not going along with the flow and at least trying to get a feel for the words associations by yourself you're seriously wasting Joyce's writing effort.

Joyce has an uncanny ear for the melody of words and the way they weight on mind and tongue. He had a fondness for folk's songs and liturgy. He had traveled all the fine hidden roads of word's sonority and songs. He was a linguistic crack with a taste for puns, but he as certainly not merely that.

>> No.13893438

>>13893388
>I reached out to my Joyce professor
haha anon wtf?

>> No.13893441

>>13893322
>How could anyone ever hope to understand this book?
No

>> No.13893514
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13893514

>>13893438
>he doesn't have a Joyce professor

>> No.13893541

Finally a semi quality thread on the wake ... only to be derailed by bullshit.

Op I’m a huge Joyce nerd. Even went to bloomsday in Dublin. I’ve made it to second chapter of the wake only to get derailed by Vico and Bruno. Keep the faith.

>> No.13893586

>>13893322
well, howth castle is the hospital we (hah i say we) were in in oxen of the sun, if i recall correctly?

>> No.13893601

>>13893586
no, i'm stupid and wrong. nevermind

>> No.13893603

>>13893541
cringe

>> No.13893639

>>13893541
>derailed by bullshit
Derailed by what?

>> No.13893650

>>13893438
>>13893514
Seriously, if you have an interest in literature at all and dont know a professor who specializes in Joyce, wtf are you even doing

>> No.13893994

>>13893388
Here's the basic method I followed:
>read chapter summary (Tindall), and as I go along add a few basic notes into the book (major shifts or general things to know when reading a section)
>just lounge and follow along with recording of a reading (Patrick Horgan's, which is online, but crackly), taking a few quick notes or markings for things that really stick out to me
>go page by page with annotations (McHugh and the notes on FinWake.com simultaneously), adding more notes (whatever seems really important or of interest to me personally, not even close to comprehensively copying over everything)
>go back and read through the chapter itself (now with somewhat thorough internal notes) in a relatively normal reading manner
There are 17 chapters. Each one might be around 10-12 hours on average following all these steps. Break the work up into 2-3 days, depending on length of chapter. If you can manage one chapter like that each week (avoid burnout, read other stuff on other days), you'll be done in a few months.

You won't be an expert on the work, but you'll have a good working knowledge of the work, better than some academics who work on Ulysses. And you can go back and re-read the work in whole or part as much as you want, especially if you have decent notes (covering big structural parts if nothing else).

You can also try to read a few big works on it as a backing. Beckett's essay ("Dante… Bruno, Vico… Joyce") gives a good general perspective, I think. And because the work is so dense, there are articles that are explicitly about individual chapters, so you can look into that as you go along if you get up to a chapter that particularly intrigues or vexes you.

>> No.13894010

>>13893322
>How could anyone ever hope to understand this book?

Listen to the 368 Re:Joyce episodes for starters.

Here's the first one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9ZbU6UnD-Y

>> No.13894502

>>13894010
Isn't that for Ulysses?

>> No.13894526

>>13894502

There's no harm in trying to gain some mastery of Ulysses before taking on Finnegans Wake.

>> No.13894527

Read this book for 8 months with no secondary literature. What a ride, brings back the memories

>> No.13894578
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13894578

>How could anyone ever hope to understand this book?
Halfway through my second reading right now.
As far as catching every reference or understanding every word, that's a fool's errand. I'm going my second read-through now, reading it aloud as I did the first time, first was in a permissive accent that flowed into the character of the writing typically, and then this time it is in a strict accent following my standard speaking voice more closely, then I'll look at secondary sources, and then I'll have another read or three with varying focuses that I'll figure out later.
I consciously cannot describe this book to you, and yet I have never laughed or cried harder with any media. There's nothing quite so strange as a passage bringing you to tears and not being able to tell someone else why, but perhaps other people who've read it can share similar experiences.
Also, no book had ever changed my accent before this one, that fucked me up with work and my family, still worth it desu.

>> No.13895005

>>13894578
Portrait over Ulysses

My god /lit/

>> No.13895011

>>13895005
>>13894578
good lord the more I read it the more this sucks.

>> No.13895021

>>13894578
>no book had ever changed my accent before this one, that fucked me up with work and my family, still worth it desu.

0_0

>> No.13895036

>>13894578
>White Noise
>Patrician
Yikes

>> No.13895056

>>13894578
my accent gets changed by books sometimes as well, happened when i read in solitary confinement

>> No.13895075

The unknown pervades it. It is above comprehensive analyses like any truly great work of art.

>> No.13895094
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13895094

im to dumb for this shit bros

>> No.13895139

>>13895094
so am i, but i'm reading the shit anyway
better to surround myself with the company of geniuses than relegate myself to moronic society because i believe myself to be one.

>> No.13895182

>>13895139
good luck

I have resigned myself to the gutter outside the ivory tower, because I know that's all I'll amount to. It's not so bad down here, really

>> No.13895186

>>13895182
thanks.
i spent 10 years down there, it was shit.

>> No.13895653

>>13893322
I read philosophy exclusively and I am fucking baffled that people use so much energy to understand this guy. What insight is there to gain? Arent novels meant to be fun? Isnt the point to let it create an image in your mind and NOT to dissect it like a sperg? I bet joyce would roll his eyes if he read those snobbish interpretations. If I look at a hundertwasser painting I dont dissect it, I dont analyse it or try to understand it rationally, I just let it seep into my subconcious because art is created to invoke emotion. Joyce should be read exactly that way I guess. If you want to use dialectic methods and logic, learn math or study philosophy.

>> No.13895671

>>13895653
it's the funniest novel ever written, you faggot bugman.

>> No.13895701

>>13895653
anti intellectual nonsense

>> No.13895736

>>13895653
>I read philosophy exclusively
>What insight is there to gain?
>Arent novels meant to be fun?
God I'm cringing so hard this used to be me

>> No.13896213

>>13895736
How did you stop being like that?

>> No.13896257
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13896257

>>13896213
I still am like that, I just used to be too

>> No.13896284

>>13893322
Just chill and enjoy the ride. Too many people think they need to master a book and that ruins reading. In the case of FW you can’t ever master it. So just go with the flow. Get bits and pieces, come back to it, get more bits and pieces. I wish more literature was like this.

>> No.13897258

>>13893438
Lol how have you made it through life this far without a Joyce professor?

>> No.13897504

>>13893438
>he doesn't have a big tiddy Joyce professor
Pretty cringe