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13816067 No.13816067 [Reply] [Original]

Suppose there is no God.
(I don’t want to discuss theology or the notion of God here, so let us just pretend for a second that the notion of the non-existence of God has been proven beyond doubt).

Suppose there is no God. Suppose also that we know that the universe will eventually die and humanity cease to exist. Now suppose that two people are arguing over if it was worth it or not for humanity to come into existence. One of those people, A, argues that even if all life and all history and all that ever was is a dream that will eventually end, it was still better than nothing, better to never have existed. There was beauty, and love, and pleasure, and even pain, not simple void. There was not only something rather than nothing, but also things that make one feel good in this something. For all the pain and suffering there were countless moments of pleasure and bliss, and moments of beauty (beauty is relative, but to an uncountable number of brains many things in the universe produce chemical reactions associated with pleasure).

But then the other person, B, argues: that’s alright for one to say if one had bad and good moments in life, if there was something more than just pain and torture and suffering. But what about those lives, animals and humans, who mostly just suffered? What about, for example, a baby bird that got out of the egg sick and deformed and lasted for some 3 painful weeks until it was eventually eaten alive by a swarm of ants. Wasn’t better from this creature’s perspective for the universe never have existed since all it ever tasted of the universe was just pain? For all the life forms that suffer the same fate, in light of the fact that there is no God and other life and rebirth and karma, what can be said to this poor grains of brief life to justify their existence? How one would justify and defend the something rather than the nothing when something was just pain?

>What books and philosophical arguments and films and plays could refute B’s perspective?

>> No.13816076

>>13816067

Nietzsche is your guy friendo

>> No.13816083
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13816083

>Suppose there is no God.
Stopped reading LOL

>> No.13816086

>>13816067
Suffering and joy both fall under the umbrella of Truth. Objectively, neither is superior to the other, but both are needed to define the other.

>> No.13816180

>>13816067
You should read "Beyond Good and Evil" by Dr. Nietzsche

>> No.13816213

B is just right, there's not much to it.
Yeah some beings have good lives and enjoy them. But if they had not existed, they would not have missed them. Cause they wouldn't have existed in the first place and could have no want or feeling.

On the contrary, some beings have absolutely dreadful existences with nothing but pain and suffering. The happy category's worst scenario is never realizing their nonexistence on the first place. The unhappy's worst case scenario is pain and suffering. It follows that nonexistence would definitely be the best state for the collective of beings.

Some common brainlet refutations of this:
>You only say this because your life sucks and you are angry
My life is quite good now, I would put myself in the happy category if I had to choose. Unlike you I can sympathize with other less fortunate beings though. And no part of the argument depends on my own state anyway.

>Suffering is not actually bad
Yeah right. Crush your balls without anesthesia then. This is some omega level sophistry to justify your own position.

>If you dislike existence so much why don't you kill yourself?
The best case scenario is nonexistence because you are not aware you don't exist in the first place. Existing and killing yourself is completely different from not existing in the first place. Plus, see my first point.

>> No.13816973

This thread made me depressed.

>> No.13817000

>>13816067
There is no really effective counter-argument to B. Besides callous and psychopathic indifference, the best all we can do is shut our ears yell la-la-la loudly and pretend that everything is fine and will be fine forever.

>> No.13817030

>>13816083
But he's right lol

>> No.13817095

>>13816083
I chuckled too reading this.

>>13816067
Let's say something only lived in pain. It is not a reasonable argument to refute A's argument since it's the minority by far. It is more reasonable to tell B's argument first and then A's.

>> No.13817132

>>13816067
i say kill both person a and b and take their wives as concubines for your harem.

>> No.13817149
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13817149

>>13816973
Same

>> No.13817924

the Brothers Karamazov