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/lit/ - Literature

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13797639 No.13797639 [Reply] [Original]

Do Visual Novels count as books?

>> No.13797687

>>13797639
They're kind of a grey-area I guess. Any particular ones that you enjoy?

>> No.13797809
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13797809

depends on how good they are

>> No.13797866

absolutely no

>> No.13797882

Well they're mostly a hybrid of various things, but I think the biggest component is literature/writing. Some are "purer" like kinetic novels while others have more interaction like choice heavy ones and even minigames and stuff like that.

>> No.13797884

>>13797809
pic not related, right?

>> No.13797889

>>13797809
Good choice, though some chapters are just useless, like the catgirl one. My favorites are Higurashi and Umineko. They're not without flaws, but their good points greatly surpass them in my opinion.

>> No.13797894

>>13797639
they count as nothing and everything at the same time. they are simultaneously the worst novels, the worst video games, the worst comic books and the worst pornography. it's almost impressive how they can achieve rock bottom in so many different categories at once without succeeding at something even just by accident.

>> No.13797900

as books? yes
as literature? no, fuck off from /lit/ woth that shit >>>/co/

>> No.13797993
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13797993

>>13797639
Yes, you need to be well-read before you even attempt to start one I would say

>> No.13797995

>>13797639
Underwater Ray Romano was great, except for the second game.

>> No.13798004

>>13797639
I remember playing Utawarerumono and had to stop before suffering an aneurysm.

>> No.13798006

>>13797639
only if you read them in Japanese.

>> No.13798027

Well they were originally just novels that went on for too long so I feel like they are.
I dont think they count as literature though, thats a whole other beast.

>> No.13798031

>>13798027
Have you read higurashi and umineko?

>> No.13798049

FSN is

>> No.13798203
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13798203

subahibi is incredible

>> No.13798208

>>13798049
FSN is so terrible it wraps around like Ouroboros and becomes excellent

>> No.13798227

>>13797639
visual novels are video games not books

>> No.13798253
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13798253

>>13798006
Does this mean that Japanese Visual novels qualify as literature, whereas Western Visual Novels such as pic related do not? If so, what sets them apart, aside from nationality?

>> No.13798270

>>13798203
Most of the charm in that visual novel, or many others I've played, comes from the music and the plot/themes touched upon, not so much from the prose itself.
>>13798253
He probably hasn't read Japanese novels or have a proper admiration for prose, which is why he probably believes that the kind of VNs he half-tries to understand are somehow more literary in their original version than their English counterparts. It's either that, or maybe he thinks that the Sublime can be substituted for teh funny.

>> No.13798276

>>13798270
Fair enough, >>13798006 sounds based

>> No.13798278

>>13797639
As someone who'se actually written one they're much more like a stage play than a novel.

>> No.13798327

>>13798208
Then it would just be great, which it is.

>> No.13798447

>>13797639
what are some good erotic visual novels?
also, "to the moon" counts as vn?

>> No.13798465

>>13798031
yes both, they're total lenght is like 4 bibles worth
and im a fan of the latter

ahaha.wav

>> No.13798476

>>13798447
>what are some good erotic visual novels?
This >>13798203

>> No.13798478
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13798478

>>13798447
Soukou Kijo Iris

>> No.13798481
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13798481

>>13798447
>>13798476
Also here are its sexual content tags from VNDB so you know what you're getting.

>> No.13798485

It depends, shit like When They Cry are straight up books with music and artwork. But then you get into grey areas like The Silver Case, Rance, etc. that are more like conventional video games.

>> No.13798500

>>13798481
>bestiality
brb downloading now

>> No.13798503
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13798503

>>13797639
>>13797809
>>13797687
>>13797882
>>13797993
>>13798203
weebs OUT
>>13797900
>>13797866
Basiert und Rottgepillt

>> No.13798506

>>13798500
It's a very brief scene with a side character and the English release removed the CG for legal reasons (the text and voice acting are still there though).

>> No.13798516
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13798516

Swan Song is kino

>> No.13798523
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13798523

Does this game qualify as literature?

>> No.13798535

>>13798506
>English release removed the CG for legal reasons
What did it break?

>> No.13798542

>>13798535
Do you mean what law? Bestiality porn is illegal in many places. The art is probably a grey area and they just didn't want to risk it.

>> No.13798543

no

>> No.13798556

>>13798506
>English release
I'm not sure what this means, just grab it off a vn translation forum or nyaa.

>> No.13798557
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13798557

Opinions on YU-NO

>> No.13798560

is sengoku rance literature?

>> No.13798576
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13798576

Pic related is the greatest visual novel I've read. Anyone here who hasn't read it should do themselves a favor by checking it out

>> No.13798591

>>13798556
The official release by Frontwing, which is the only English version available.

>> No.13798595

>>13798542
That's beyond retarded, it's the same thing with the characters that look young being labeled as child porn.
There is a reason why live-action Beastiality and child porn are prohibited: they are animal abuse and pedophilia. But these drawing of Beastiality do not hurt anybody. Why not just ban gun violence in fiction because shooting people is also illegal IRL?

>> No.13798601

>>13798595
I was just pointing it out since that anon (probably jokingly) said he was going to read the game because of that scene. It's a very insignificant and small (like 30 lines of text) part of the game, though, and all they removed is the image, so censoring it doesn't really affect the game negatively.

>> No.13798603

>>13797639
They’re basically light novels with music and pictures.

>> No.13798614
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13798614

Most of them are commercial trash made for japanese shut-ins but some of the doujin or niche ones are very, very good. Though fan translations ruin the prose.

>> No.13798626

>VNs have excellent prose but only if you read them in Japanese ;)
I hear this a lot and I doubt that it's true. If these writers were such talented prose stylists they wouldn't be writing porn games. I'm sure poor translations do have an effect on the quality, but I don't think it's nearly as drastic as it's made out to be and it reeks of "sunk-cost" delusion.

>> No.13798652

>>13798626
I'm >>13798614 and I must say it should be quite evident, even for people with a very basic understanding of Japanese, that the fan translations bring Ryukishi's prose down from good to decent. You can see that reading Frederica Bernkastel's poetry, reading the original epitaph enigma, or in the way some more dignified characters in Umineko talk, using archaic pronouns, nouns and mannerisms. It's not the best literature available but it definitely becomes a little less interesting when translated.

>> No.13798661

>>13798652
I'm sure there are things that are lost in translation. I'm not saying that. But a lot of people act like certain VN writers are literary geniuses.

>> No.13800020

Bump

>> No.13800030

>>13798253
>sexy even while bleeding
God I fucking hate this trope. Might pick up the game anyways.

>> No.13800273
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13800273

I don't read many, ones that stand out are YU-NO, subahibi, ever17/remember 11, and umineko
Mine seem to be aimed at schizophrenics and autists, which I fall into
>>13797993
Yes, YES, posting the least well endowed and hence closest physically to the male form female in a game utilizing reference and identity switching, I diagnose you as 100% straight, but CHECK OUT THIS
>>13798447
>to the moon
autism
>>13798557
It's fun
Reading the research papers, clicking on thighs, the "time travel" loading CYOA style but with indications of branching paths, and all the stuff after sword cape, it's just a fun game. I kept thinking of Hegel and the idea of an entity repeating paths in order to gain self-knowledge, wisdom, understanding of futures it would regret etc. Hard to call it "literary" but it's not trying to be.
also mommy waifu, kannachan, miochan, erikasensei hnng

>> No.13800835

I really REALLY like the F/SN VN but I've never found another that I enjoyed as much.

>> No.13801314
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13801314

>>13800835
If you liked it for the chuuni aspects you may enjoy Dies Irae. It has similar story beats at the beginning but Dies Irae quickly grows into its own thing and is in my opinion a superior Chuunige. It falls completely flat as far as the galge aspects are concerned so if you like F/SN for the girls don't bother because you're not going to get much of that.

>> No.13802455

>>13798516
Glad Swan Song was mentioned. It's probably one of the most underrated good VNs that has been translated

>> No.13802550

>>13797639
They're books, but none of them are any good. The prose is universally awful, the stories are often derivative and needlessly bloated, the sex scenes almost always feel forced and out of place, and the "interactivity" is a complete joke. I've heard people argue that while just about every VN on the market is total crap the format itself at least has potential, which I find hard to believe. VNs are just novels where the reader is free to read the chapters in any order he wants, there's no actual interactivity and no real difference from the experience of reading a regular book.

>> No.13802588
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13802588

of course

>> No.13802592
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13802592

>> No.13802617

>>13802550
>VNs are just novels where the reader is free to read the chapters in any order he wants

What

Have you ever even read a VN? Do you know how they work?

>> No.13802630

>>13802588
Why are these Ninjas so fucking stupid?
Seriously. Everyone in charge of their operations should be demoted.

>> No.13802633

>>13802630
they got sold out by one of their leaders (then killed them)

>> No.13803348
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13803348

>/a/ made Katawa Shoujo
>/lit/ has only ever written giant shitpost books
how have a group of autistic weebs outdone the "highest IQ board"? it's honestly kind of embarrassing.

>> No.13803351

>>13803348
Katawa Shoujo is a mediocre VN.

>> No.13803353

>>13803348
>>13803351
Also KS was written by feminists who wanted to undermine common aspects of VN romance. It's obvious what's going on if you've played enough of them.

>> No.13803371

>>13803351
But it was a sincere effort. Niggers of a Tundra or whatever those /lit/ group effort shitpost books are a big joke. A fun one, but not a serious effort.

>>13803353
Elaborate.

>> No.13803401

>>13803371
>Elaborate.
Hanako doesn't actually need MC's help since she's a strong independent woman. Emi has had a boyfriend before. Lily has a conversation with you about how she was in love with someone else when she was younger. (The ones with Emi and Lily are an absolute no go and would cause a normal VN to fail in Japan). Rin's is a bit more difficult to describe, but it feels like you don't emotionally connect in a romantic manner. I didn't read Shizune's route but I read a summary of the plot and the ending seems to fit the trend.

>> No.13803464

>>13803371
Also I don't know if you've heard of the VN Kakyuusei 2, but it's a notorious example of this. It was advertised as a normal moe romance, but the main heroine, MC's childhood friend, is a non-virgin and in a relationship with someone else (if you do her route she leaves him for the MC). People were furious and boycotted the company (Elf), which afterwards could only make money through NTR games since that's the only audience that would buy their shit, until they went bankrupt.

>> No.13803487

>>13803401
>>13803464
So KS didn't have the same target audience as actual japanese VN developers? And this must have been because the authors were feminists who wanted to subvert japanese expectations? What the fuck are you talking about?

>> No.13803506

>>13803487
Who is their audience? It's people who like Japanese VNs. There's a reason there isn't a single good English VN.

>> No.13803514

>>13803506
>Who is their audience?
4chan users.

>> No.13803530

>>13803514
Do you read VNs (not EVNs) regularly? If you don't there's no point discussing it.

>> No.13803535

>>13803530
If you can't argue your point with some evidence and reasoning, why did you start it? Show us all here how you are right that the KS devs are feminists and they intentionally subverted japanese VN tropes.

>> No.13803540

>>13803535
If you aren't familiar with the tropes or don't have any investment in them then I'm not going to bother because you'll just deflect like this >>13803487. It's not worth my time. I told you my reasoning, if you disagree with it that's fine with me.

>> No.13803544

>>13797639
Sure! Hahahaha why not? Oops now RPGs are books! And so are comics! And movies with subtitles too! Hahaha all these new kinds of books!

>> No.13803592

>>13803544
I've been slacking on my reading this year. But if Anime with subtitles suddenly counts, then I'll be right where I want to be

>> No.13803721

>>13798576
Based and redpilled. Great romance.

>> No.13803728

>>13803721
Is it yuri?

>> No.13803740

>>13803728
Kinda I guess . Try it butterfly. You might like it

>> No.13803967

>>13803464
What does that have to do with feminism? KS was not written for a Japanese audience, so it is not bound to Japanese cultural standards or interests of consumers. Having the MC be the center of attention for a large cast of attractive females is just stupid, wish-fulfillment, soulless writing. Stop using buzzwords and strawmen for things that you don't like, schizo.

>>13803544
Let me clarify.
>RPGs
Videogames, since they rely on interactive gameplay mechanics through control input to deliver an experience. Tabletop RPG rulesets are books, though.
>comics
Sequential art, because they rely much more on visual composition and panelling than writing itself. However, it is worth mentioning that they are sometimes called "comic books" as they're released on book format.
>movies with subtitles
A script for a movie or theatrical performance can be a book if released as such. A movie with subtitles is not a book, no one believes that.
>VNs and SNs
Not books, but they can be literature. VNs and SNs are the same as books with illustrations, except that they feature sound (and sometimes voice acting) and are not released on paper format. VNs are not inherently interactive, but they don't cease to be literature in those cases either.

>> No.13803996

>>13803967
>Having the MC be the center of attention for a large cast of attractive females is just stupid, wish-fulfillment, soulless writing.
That's what VNs are. Like I said, if you don't care about VNs then there's no point discussing it.

>> No.13804291

>>13803540
>I told you my reasoning
you didn't though

>> No.13804301

>>13803544
This. Homer isn't literature because it was originally spoken.

>> No.13804327

>>13797639
lowest form of media. fuck off. if you unironically consume this kind of stuff youre beyond saving

>> No.13804350

>>13804327
have sex

>> No.13804694

>>13803996
Fuck off. I enjoy VNs and it doesn't mean everything has to be haremshit.

>> No.13804715

>>13804694
The cancer killing VNs. You probably think VNs shouldn't have porn either.

>> No.13804753

>>13798447
translated?
Kuroinu
Prison Battleship 3
Starless

>> No.13804794

>>13804715
You are the cancer. It's because of you that every VN has to shoehorn retarded haremshit and porn just to be able to sell anything. Having porn VNs is fine. Having harem VNs is fine. Not everything has to be porn haremshit.

>> No.13804799

>>13804794
>Not everything has to be porn haremshit.
Yes it literally does.

>> No.13804910

Tsukihime is peak literature.

>> No.13805680

>>13803353
VNs are a medium, not a genre. God forbid someone do something different than wish-fulfillment harem schlock for otaku losers like yourself.
>>13803996
>That's what VNs are
No, that's why most VNs are garbage.