/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13658333]

>reads marx at 18: fuck this commie
>reads marx at 27: holy shit, he is right about everything

[Anonymous No.13658339]

>>13658333
>27
You are too old for this site. Go get a job and have sex.

[Anonymous No.13658346]

My experience was the opposite.

[Anonymous No.13658514]

>>13658339
i bet the average user in this shithole is older than 20

[Anonymous No.13658517]

>>13658514
>shithole
Name a better website

Also I think on /mu/ at least the average user isn't 20 yet (lit will be better)

[Soren Kierkegaard No.13658519]

>>13658333
I read a decent amount of Marx at 17, he's right about quite a few things, I'll read more of him in the future

[Soren Kierkegaard No.13658522]

>>13658517
the other websites are just more shitty, there was a poll a while back, I think the average user was around 18-22

[Anonymous No.13658525]

>>13658522
Jesus.

[Soren Kierkegaard No.13658527]

>>13658525
Christ.

[Anonymous No.13658528]

>>13658333
no he's not and you're a failure

[Anonymous No.13658533]

>>13658333
How is that possible? Have you any work experience?
If you do I assume you are one of the lazy ones. The more lazy on is the more left they are on my experience, or they don't understand the consequences and just want free shit why them themselves try to avoid paying taxed as much as possible.

[Anonymous No.13658537]

>>13658533

[Anonymous No.13658538]

>>13658517
>Name a better website
your whatsapp convo with a cute girl

[Anonymous No.13658545]

>>13658533
im a good worker and i agree with most of marx's critiques about capitalism. my bosses are lazy retards that are unironically leeching off my (and my collegues) hard work

[Anonymous No.13658551]

no he isn't, his goal is pretty much the materialism of capitalism but sharing it. His critique is well done (and right) but seeing humans as nothing but flesh of desire is embarrassing.

[Soren Kierkegaard No.13658552]

>>13658533
what experience? regurgitating /pol/ is not experience
I recommend reading Marx

[Anonymous No.13658565]

>>13658537
I was extremely left in my teens but as I started to work I quickly moved to the right. As I saw the most staunch leftists were the most lazy people or the ones a using the system the most I quickly saw the light.
I refuse to support a system based on egalitarianism when the people do not intend to support the system but rather abuse it. If the people are to act this sY then id rather work in a system where the few holders of capital are my enemies rather than society as whole as it would be in a socialist society.

[Anonymous No.13658572]

>>13658552
I've worked 9 years as a factory worker and I live in Scandinavia.

Also >>13658565

[Soren Kierkegaard No.13658578]

>>13658572
how sad, honestly

[Anonymous No.13658589]

>>13658533
Work experience is HOW you see it first hand

[Anonymous No.13658593]

>>13658578
What is sad? That idealistic ideologues promotes a system of governance that would in lead to their own execution were it ever to be?

[Anonymous No.13658788]

>all these retards that havent done the reading

[Anonymous No.13658804]

>>13658339
I am 36.

[Anonymous No.13658807]

>>13658565
Enjoy being replaced by mass immigration. Enjoy LGBT culture, transgenderism, and surrogate motherhood, Capitalism culture.

About your staunch leftists, they most likely didn't read Marx. Let's be realistic, probably less than 0.1% of the general population have read Marx. I mean not the Manifesto, but Das Kapital.

[Anonymous No.13658816]

>>13658339
Rugrats like you make this board shit, with your pseudo nonsense thinking you have life figured out.

[Anonymous No.13658817]

>>13658533
How can you have the work experience and not feel the alienation and class antagonism?

[Anonymous No.13658837]

>>13658804
based

[Anonymous No.13658857]

>>13658565
You don’t even need to reduce to it to the kind of people they are, that’s what they do because their beliefs don’t hold up for shit. Lefties have made a huge fuck up, this is a fact. They claimed themselves the saviors of all when they’re trying to save themselves and it has made them look really bad. They’re just a mass of narcissistic hypocrites now. By failing to recognize the other side is a valid stance and by failing to engage in actual civil discourse they have totally fucked themselves. And they can’t stop, all they can do is double down on the ad hominems and strawmans for every argument as they desperately cling to their former self esteem as the only ones who can be correct.

[Anonymous No.13659126]

>>13658533
I work 10 hours a day 5.5 days a week. Also I literally want to steal everything from the rich. This wouldn't be easy. I don't understand the laziness accusations. I'm just an asshole who refuses to acknowledge your property rights.

[Anonymous No.13659279]

>>13658807
Well I don't support capitalism but I am even more against Marxism.

>>13658817
I know the elite abuses us but from seeing how people want social security for purely selfish reasons and abuses whatever system are in place I feel antagonism against the lazy workers as well. In the current system I am forced to pay for them and the social policies such as LAS (lagen om anställningsskydd) allows them to abuse employers making them wary of hiring people, lowering the value of competent workers who are not already known as exceptional.

The social democracy in its current form here in Scandinavia hasn't been in place for very long, only really since the 80s and it's already crumbling, in most situations you are left alone without almost any money if you are not working, meanwhile if there is an immigrant with an approved asylum request to the municipality is obliged by law to give the immigrant a place to stay, if the only living quarters on the market is a 3 million Euro house they are forced by law to give it to the immigrant.

If social democracy is to work people should work with the state and the state need to work for the people. What happens is the people abuses the state and the government works for personal interests, it is not sustainable, and even if it was the people deserving rewards will receive the least whilst the ones deserving the least will receive the most. This is not even what Marx wanted.

>>13659126
I am talking about your lazy coworkers. I said from my experience the lazier my coworkers are or the more they abuse the benefits the state is offering them the more fervent they are in their leftist beliefs. I am very well aware these are just my personal experiences and I'm not trying to claim they are facts, but it is why I left the left.

[Anonymous No.13659320]

>>13658533
I'm an egoistic pro-capital accumulation but only for me. For the rest of society, I'm pro-communism. Fuck you and your rules.

[Anonymous No.13659512]

>>13659279
>be convinced of an ideology based on work
>be lazy
>want social programs
>break social programs
I'm not sure they're actually leftists.

[Anonymous No.13659522]

>>13658333
I take it you read the Communist Manifesto and not Capital

[Anonymous No.13659661]

>>13658514
Yea there are definitely a lot of boomer commies here who sperg out about idpol

[Anonymous No.13659855]

>>13659512
They are the real working and middle class. They generally don't analyze consequences and think about ideal situations as philosophy professors do.
Even if we assume they aren't "real" leftists they are still people a leftist system need to accommodate unless the system executed everyone accused of wrong think.

[Anonymous No.13659900]

>>13658333
>read marx at 30: holy shit, he is right about everything to do with capitalism but he neglects some very important issues like race and this is probably because hes a jew

[Anonymous No.13659988]

>>13658804
The same age the Jesus was crucified.

[Anonymous No.13660068]

>>13659988
You are wrong.

[Anonymous No.13660074]

>>13660068
So what

[Anonymous No.13660116]

>>13658333
You switched the order

[Anonymous No.13660150]

>>13658333
>Monsieur, my son is 22 years old. If he had not become a Communist at 22, I would have disowned him. If he is still a Communist at 30, I will do it then.

[Anonymous No.13660158]

>>13659900
>3. You will not post any of the following outside of /b/:

> b, Racism

[Anonymous No.13660262]

>>13658552
Crazy how Communists feel like they've unlocked some hidden knowledge. Marx is the most well-read political theorist ever. His ideas are universally known and have been endlessly studied and debated. It just so happens that most people reject it or grow out of it once they transcend the infantile urge to be depicted as a revolutionary battling an almighty cause.

T. 16 year old Communist, now 24 year old far-right.

[Anonymous No.13661493]

>>13660158

[Anonymous No.13661601]

>>13660262
Why do you only choose radical ideologies? Maybe you still think you are battling an allmighty cause?

[Anonymous No.13661619]

>>13659279
>I know the elite abuses us but
class consiousness anon, you've bought the neoliberal lie that social democracy is communist but it's literally capitalism using socialism as a crutch to milk a few more decades of exploitation out of their crumbling economic system. And I don't even think capitalism is ending, it will find capitulation through something like UBI instead, but to imagine the nordic model as what Marx would have wanted is pretty absurd

[Anonymous No.13661721]

>>13660262
>T. 16 year old Communist,
>Didn't read Das Kapital.

>now 24 year old far-right.
>Still didn't read Das Kapital

[Anonymous No.13661726]

>>13658533
I'm guessing OP has a lot of unskilled manual labor experience where teamwork is minimal or non-existent and output from each worker is roughly the same. That makes it more easier to direct all of your resentment to your employer.

Once you get into work that requires a lot of skill, the interactions with your coworkers and bosses would be more complicated, especially when doing teamwork. Your resentment would more likely to spread out. You would start feeling resentment towards your coworkers who have less work output but get paid the same while having you pick up their slack.

[Anonymous No.13661760]

>>13660262
Worst post itt. Marx has only entered public discourse like two years back, but vast majority of people still doesn't have basic clue about his writing, since it's so long and dense.

[Anonymous No.13661795]

>>13659855
>They generally don't analyze consequences and think about ideal situations as philosophy professors do.

Which would make one wonder: how would a "perfect" implementation of communism even work? Not everyone's going to follow every rule like an autist. You would have a large portion of the population who's "too dumb" to follow Karl Marx's vision correctly. This would force the creation of an elite class who would interpret communism for the "dummies", but it would centralized gov't all over again. Inb4 voting. Yeah, "voting" while having guns pointed at your back.

[Anonymous No.13661840]

>>13660150
Zerg c:
Reynor is practicing terran hard since serral. He beat deepmind as it

[Anonymous No.13661874]

>Right about everything
He was wrong about the most important parts, but he was correct in his critique of alienation under capitalism. But as soon as he ventures into positive alternatives, he just completely goes astray.

[Anonymous No.13661991]

>>13661619
I am not equating social democracy with democracy but I've highlighted some of the problems they share.

>>13661726
Maybe you're right but such low skilled work with little to no teamwork isn't even that common in western factories, the food industry has a lot of it I guess. I'm guessing he's worked in a Cafe or something similar.

>>13661795
Indeed, that is why a system of governance needs to both allow drones to be productive when acting unthinkingly and abusive psychopaths to not damage the system and welfare of others when acting in their own self interest.

Such a system probably doesn't exist, but any type of Marxism has no way to limit the damage those people can cause.

[Anonymous No.13661996]

>>13661991
>I am not equating social democracy with democracy
With communism I mean

[Anonymous No.13662010]

>>13661874
>But as soon as he ventures into positive alternatives
Does he?

[Anonymous No.13662030]

>>13662010
Im talking about predictions on what communism will eventually be like, or how it can be achieved. Things like a voucher system (that'll totally wont turn into currency) or even the Dictatorship of the Proletariat itself as this will not wither the power of the state at all, but will instead only consolidate the power of the capitalists and fuse it completely with the entire political realm.

[Anonymous No.13662044]

>>13661874

Pretty much this, capitalism can really only be criticized from sociological/psychological perspectives though even there the modern literature doesn't provide positive alternatives, it just critiques with the implicit attempt of reforming

You might call it capitalist realism, but I call it the end of history and the last man

[Anonymous No.13662077]

>>13661874
You didn't read Marx.
When did he exactly venture into positive alternatives?
Tell me, anon, Which book, which chapter?

[Anonymous No.13662093]

>>13662077
Vouchers were in Critique of the Gotha Program, and most of his more concrete alternatives were in the Manifesto.
But really, the fact that he barely had any alternatives and the belief that you could have a society that is entirely negative and based on critique, is one of the reasons why the communist experiments were such horrible and miserable failures, as anything even close to a plan was already decried to be idealism.

[Anonymous No.13662101]

>>13661795
Just avoid using the term at all ultimately it’s about policy no citizen should have to do anything for better policies to be implemented that’s on the government and the Govt and politics should be invisible none of this fucking reality tv bullshit where you pick your team just a bunch of people who run the infrastructure of the country as well as possible for the benefit of citizens

[Anonymous No.13662117]

>>13662093
Okay you actually have read Marx (if you didn't check that out on Wikipedia).
In any case, Hutterites are communists, and it works pretty well for them.

[Anonymous No.13662125]

>>13662117
Hutterites are also a religious commune made up of one ethnicity who live in a relatively small village. They are antithetical to what Marx had in mind with global scientific socialism.

[Anonymous No.13662132]

>Socially left - Economically left: Acceptable
>Socially left - Economically right : Acceptable
>Socially right - Economically right : Acceptable
>Socially right - Economically left: REEEE FUCKING HITLER REEEE
I hate modern political discourse.

[Anonymous No.13662148]

>>13662132
Bro your brain is operating at 800x600

[Anonymous No.13662169]

>>13658517
there is none. everywhere it's the same shit. at least you get an honest insight into the human mind by posting here regularly. I've surprisingly become a lot more forgiving of people cause I stopped viewing them as static personalities and more as a constantly shifting abstract bag of ideas, emotions, shifting attention and informational processors of varying efficiencies.

[Anonymous No.13662181]

>>13662169
Lmao you fucking autist

[Anonymous No.13662219]

>>13662181
i've been tested for autism in the past, and turns out I'm not actually autistic believe it or not. Maybe because I spoke so bluntly about the human mind it may seem to you I have no social sensitivity or care in framing my thoughts. This is not the case at all, I've always done well in the humanities, and people always told me I possess a large amount of moral instinct and empathy. I have a rather analytical mind though. This combination makes for a pretty idiosyncratic way of viewing the world I'd say, but I honestly wouldn't want it any other way. Being able to view morality and your emotional life with the appropriate amount of rationalism is essential to understanding your own humanity.

[Anonymous No.13662236]

>>13660158
>A tumult of niggers

[Anonymous No.13662239]

>>13662125
There is no one Hutterites community, but many.
Exchange value is modelling human culture and identity into a lowest common denominator type stuff.
As much as i hate this and am ethno differentialist, it's clearly happening.
It's painful to live and watch, but Capital is modelling people into one type of human. Fucking useless wankers all speaking english, playing fortnite, watching game of thrones, and being either incels or having a degenerate type sexuality (Tinder).
Then you'll have your small village.
Marx predicted this. United in mediocrity.
It's pretty easy to understand. Culture were a reflect of living conditions. A viking didn't have the same culture as a fucking Mohamed living as a sand Touareg in 700 CE.

However today, the living conditions of all homo sapiens wankers is pretty much the same. The production is made and dispatched everywhere in the world. Everyone is ordering on Amazon the same shit, goes to the same social networks, and watch the same ridiculous entertainment (TVshows). Play the same videogames. Every zoomer, from third world shitholes egypt, to Asia, Scandinavia, is playing Fortnite. United throught addictive videogamres and McDonalds.

[Anonymous No.13662248]

>>13662219
i bet you are this klamer guy irl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqYV-GLnxQU

[Anonymous No.13662256]

>>13662030
>on what communism will eventually be like
Marx made fun of people who theoretized how will communism look like.

>Dictatorship of the Proletariat
What's that?

>wither the power of the state
That's Lenin.

[Anonymous No.13662283]

>>13662256
>I'm such a wiser Communist than Lenin!
t. rando bugman

[Anonymous No.13662288]

>>13662283
We are talking about Marx, retard.

[Anonymous No.13662308]

>>13662239
Amazon with its insanely cheap prices and next day delivery is essentially a form of welfare under globo-homo. Whereas the Bolsheviks had only one product on the shelf, now you can get anything you think you want and just about everyone can afford it. The State could never build such an effective distribution network.

[Anonymous No.13662318]

>>13662256
Exactly why do these stupid fucking retards keep pretending communism is some one size fits all shoe that can be fitted onto every society with zero regard of context

[Anonymous No.13662344]

>>13662308
I am non Statist, and belive Boshevism was State Capitalism. Not that this latter point was much debated, even wikipedia says so.

Of course, Capitalism makes tremendous increases of productivity. Never forget that it was paid in blood and sweat from the working class. Still, for some to enjoy, people still have to suffer. (Pic related).

[Anonymous No.13662384]

>>13662344
ok so we put all the suffering wagies in their cagies out of work and stop selling the consumer crap which has been pacifying people. is this the new socialism? what happens next?

[Anonymous No.13662394]

>>13662288
>marx wanted gender bending online trolls taught by listless academics employed by the bourgeois state to nitpick what he truly said forever

[Anonymous No.13662403]

>>13658333
Right in his critiques of capitalism, but incorrect in his proposed solutions

[Anonymous No.13662412]

>>13662403
His critique is the bulk of his work. He didn´t really bothered with "solutions".

[Anonymous No.13662427]

>>13662403
capitalism is just a pejorative he applied to market forces which turn out to price things differently than his autistic value system. what specifically was he right about?

[Anonymous No.13662436]

>>13662412
his Manifesto demanded a Central Bank so the State could debase the currency and redistribute wealth that way, in fact if you look at today's world almost all of his demands have been implemented

[Anonymous No.13662440]

>>13662427
>capitalism is just a pejorative he applied to market forces
Fucking hell you're stupid.

[Anonymous No.13662444]

>>13662436
Manifesto lol

[Anonymous No.13662450]

>>13662427
he was right about capitalism being shit

[Anonymous No.13662457]

33 Marx was right in some things and wrong in others

[Anonymous No.13662461]

>>13662384
We won't do shit. Because it is not how this works.
Idealy we would produce like the Hutterites. But this won't happen.
What will happen is production organized by complex algorithms functioning in distributed networks.
Means of production will be owned by the distrubuted network. So by no one.

[Anonymous No.13662462]

>>13662444
rich kike writes a bunch of "criticisms" while posing as a religious prophet for non-religious people, his faggot followers are so ashamed of the one time he actually proposed solutions from his ivory tower that they pretend it doesn't even exist as a weird cope for spending their lives buying into the rest of his bullshit

[Anonymous No.13662477]

>>13662436
>his Manifesto

[Anonymous No.13662478]

>>13662462
Manifesto, published in 1848. About 200 pages.
Das Kapital, all 3 volumes. published more than 20 years later. About 1000 pages for vol. 1, and 1000 pages for vol. 2 and 3.

Go back watch your Jordan Peterson vids, you fucking clown.

[Anonymous No.13662502]

>>13662436
I'm not who you're responding to but I think you mean:
>Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
The policy objective of that wasn't "debasing the currency" but direct state control over credit for investment purposes. Marx wrote the manifesto for the context of Germany in the late 1840s i.e. how a retarded country might develop quickly to the industrial standards of England. It's all very immature and polemical. Also credit is controlled by private banks today largely endogenously.

[Anonymous No.13662506]

>>13662478
Capital doesn't propose any solutions and its analysis is total bullshit because it rests on his labor theory of value. just IMAGINE being a religious follower who gets through their day by saying
>marx predicted this
every time they come across something they don't like

[Anonymous No.13662524]

>>13662506
You talk about labor theory but you don't understand what it is. You've just heard or read somewhere that it is untrue.
Clean your room. It's easier for you.

[Anonymous No.13662531]

>>13662478

The manifesto proper is not 200 pages you idiot, you're thinking of modern readers which include historical notes. The manifesto itself is a 20-50 page pamphlet (depending entirely on how one wants to format/pad the pagination).

Your description of Capital is more accurate, though pt. 2 is significantly shorter than the others.

[Anonymous No.13662547]

>>13662531
My mistake about manifesto. It's such an unremarkable work.

[Anonymous No.13662548]

>>13662524
it is astonishing to witness time after time the way Marx's true faithful are completely and utterly unwilling to defend his ideas. one wonders whether they ever have private moments of doubt

[Anonymous No.13662568]

>>13662547
lol

[Anonymous No.13662578]

>>13662502
in the specific demands for Germany (rather than the general manifesto) he explains that it is to use a State monopoly on the creation of paper credit to break the link between gold and money. there is no good reason for doing this unless you have spending plans which cannot be funded the normal way. paper is used to erode the wealth of private citizens for redistribution to the people via the State

[Anonymous No.13662580]

>>13662548
I'm not a Marxist but the real problem with Marx is he literally said very different things all throughout his writings and never retracted or attempted to explained his changes of mind on various topics.

[Anonymous No.13662591]

>>13662578
Marx was a goldbug (maybe even worse than someone like Rothbard) from my readings. Do you understand the LTV in relations to paper without a commodity money? Also essiently notting is "funded" with gold today retard so don't say "normal".

[Anonymous No.13662604]

>>13662580
such as?

[Anonymous No.13662609]

>>13662591
the federal reserve note was backed by gold until 1971, but all credit is today created at the whims of central bankers and extreme currency debasement has been the result. the past few decades have therefore been marx's dream-world, and what a surprise, it isn't working.

although i might add that thanks to crypto-currencies rendering central bank monopolies impossible, Marx has been permanently BTFO by Bitcoin

[Anonymous No.13662635]

>>13662436
Manifesto doesn't really matter. Those proposals were formed ad hoc for a given time.

>demands have been implemented
The one about central bank really wasn't, because it's used to expropriate common folk and benefit the private sphere.